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Originally Posted by billege
I figured it would take all of ten minutes for someone to say just about what you said.
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Oddly enough, it did take exactly 10 minutes
Alright, before we continue - and I'm not saying that this will happen, but figure we may as well be safe about it - let's not start a war here, I'd be more than happy to share my viewpoints with you, but don't want to completely alienate all those others who would wish to join in.
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I know it's easy to pick apart what people say on forums because the statements aren't 100% applicable and perfect.
Try resisting that impluse briefly enough to think about the point as a whole, and not deconstruct it.
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Agreed, and I probably didn't type what I meant clear enough. I'm not trying to break it down to semantics, I just think that the comments that you made are quite stereotypical. I'm not trying to say that it isn't true 100% of the time, or even true 10% of the time, I'm just trying to imply that the statements you made were based on very specific examples, whereas I can think of quite a few very specific examples of the opposite.
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OBVIOUSLY all Black men to not hate black women.
OBVIOUSLY all Black men are not in jail, have no education, etc.
I am not going to point out all the instances where what I'm discussing exists, because then I'd just play the "let's pick it apart point by point" game, which is a waste of time.
Forums have this overwhelming tendancy to do a point-by-point "you're wrong because" game, and it's really boring. Okay? It misses the point of the whole discussion.
I've been here for years, and it got old a LOOOONG time ago.
Instead of bypassing my point entirely, and saying "you're wrong 'cause all black men don't hate black women" try, just for one second to ask yourself if it's possible to consider the larger question.
I mean, dude, I'm not mad at you, I'm dissapointed because it was obvious when I wrote the post that someone would come right out with what you did.
It takes all the point out of posting when you can anticipate the responses you'll get, and be right. Maybe it's my fault for somehow failing to put things more clearly.
If I had to break-out my pertenent points, they'd go like this:
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Nonsence.
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Why is there such negativity in black popular art forms towards black women?
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Well, there negativity can certainly be found in some art forms towards black women, but at the same time, you can find a substantial amount of the opposite as well. Granted, I don't listen to much Rap or a whole lot of other trendy music, so I may be a bit off on these, however - aren't there a substantial amount of black artists out there that idolize the female form (er... Usher?) without making color distinctions? Aren't the ladies in the music videos typically black? I don't think I have ever heard any mention of black guys having issues with black women in ANY jazz music that I have heard, which is also quite popular. Additionally, in most of the paintings I have seen that were painted by black artists, I haven't seen any negativity towards black women.
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It's surely possible to say that "gee, white men put out negative images of white women, so you're an idiot," but that's a cheap way of bypassing the point.
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Well, I don't think it's bypassing the point at all. Some white men certainly put out negative images of white women, but I don't see a thread entitled "Do white men much like white women" out there... Although I have no facts or figures to verify this, I would imagine that there are roughly the same number of instances out there of white men belittling white women, yet noone jumps to the same conclusion you arrived at with black people. Ironically, the same logic you applied to black people can be applied to white people, but in reverse. Using the same reasons you cited above, white women shouldn't like white men because they (as a whole) tend to make more, often times are better educated, ect.
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It is obvious that there IS a shitty "bitch" image created (was it?) and maintained by black men in black art, most obviously music. IN THAT CASE >>The case we're trying to focus on for discussion<< can we discuss possible reasons for that?
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I will agree that there likely is (like I said, I don't listen to much rap) but I will argue that it is most often seen in rap music. Now, if I'm not mistaken, this is the genre that has been noted in the past for such ideas like killing police officers is good, doing drugs is spectacular, and killing people on the streets is acceptable. Should we really be using rap music as an indicator? I would imagine that the lyrics in rap music typically don't voice the popular opinion...
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It is also provable that black women are gaining wealth faster than black men. Can we discuss if there's a possible issue between black women and men there?
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Well, like I said earlier, it is also provable that white men are paid higher salaries than white women for the same job - I dont' think that it necessarily implies that there is an issue there.
After all that I said, I don't want to come across as a crazy nut who believe all he hears in the media, especially pertaining to rap music. Granted, it isn't my first choice, but it isn't like I have never heard it and have been spoon-fed my opinions on it by reading the newspaper or watching the news. I don't think that it is a terrible detriment to society today, but I certainly don't believe that the lyrics are indicative of any large scale social trends, either.