Telluride

I'd like to propose a moment of silence to honor the 34 men who were killed on June 8, 1967 when the USS Liberty was attacked in international waters by Israeli aircraft and torpedo boats.

A war crimes report has been filed, and it can be downloaded in PDF format at the USS Liberty Memorial. It is available in both PDF and HTML format at the USS Liberty Court of Inquiry.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Cuatela

Not to seem insensitive, but why do we only have silence for high-profile incidences? People die every day, so why not have silence for them too?

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Any sarcasm was intentional.

Mephisto2

Aren't you a day too late?


Mr Mephisto

Telluride

I don't see anything wrong with having a moment of silence for people who die everyday. Go for it.

I specifically mentioned the USS Liberty because:

1) I automatically give a certain amount of respect to anyone who serves in the US military.

2) Whether one thinks the attack was intentional or not, what happened to the crew of the USS Liberty was horrible.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

I can see why this would be relavent 38 years ago, but today?

I rank this the same as all the people whose ancestors generations back were opressed and think that because of that, they deserve something. So your ancestors had some bad stuff happen to them, suck it up, learn from it, and go on to better yourself. Don't try and get handouts because your people were oppressed or hurt decades ago. Those ancestors you cry about all the time and use as a meal ticket would be ashamed of you.

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Telluride

If you're talking to me, I made the original post in this thread on June 8th, which is the 38th anniversary of the attack on the USS Liberty.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Telluride

What if it takes decades for the victims of the attack to get their chance to truly resolve the issue?

This isn't a bunch of people demanding reparations for something that happened to their ancestors 300 years ago. These are men who were victims of a vicious attack that was possibly intentional, and are basically asking for their "day in court", so to speak.

I wouldn't be in favor of some "solution" that involved the great-great-great-great grandchildren of Israelis paying reparations to the great-great-great-great grandchildren of USS Liberty veterans, or anything like that. But if there was any intentional wrong-doing on the part of the Israeli government, shouldn't those responsible be punished (assuming they are still alive)? If there was a cover-up on the part of the American government, should those responsible be punished (assuming they are still alive)?

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

38 years ago man. If nothing has come of it in the last 38 years, what are the odds of anything that happens now having any meaning or even relating to what happened so long ago. If the same people are alive now and still in any position of power, what makes you think they are the same people they were back then. I did some really stupid stuff when I was 15, should I be punished for it when I'm 53? Its stupid, if this wasn't taken care of 30+ years ago, nobody cared then, and the people that are whining about it now didn't care then and are only pushing it now as some sort of meal ticket.

If you have beliefs about something, stand up for them when they matter, but if you let it slide for 38 years, take your begging for pity and a meal ticket and shove it. Thats my opinion anyway. These people want to put it all behind them now? How have they lived the last 38 years then? If they could live with themselves then, they can keep doing it. In this age of lawsuits and people who are whining pussies looking for a free handout, things like this disgust me.

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Telluride

So we should refuse to investigate potential wrong-doing by people on the grounds that they may not be the "same people" they were at the time of the incident? Just out of curiousity; if somebody commits a crime, how long before for the criminal is no longer the "same person" and is absolved of any responsibility for his or her actions?

It depends on what you did. If you intentionally killed 34 people, for example, I'd say you should be punished.

Have you read the war crimes report PDF or HTML file? If you haven't, I'd suggest you do so. If the allegations in the war crimes report regarding the "investigation" of the incident are true, it would be unfair to describe this as a case of the survivors deciding to "let it slide for 38 years".

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

It depends on the crime, its the reason we have a little thing called the "Statute of Limitations," you should look it up, I think it applies very well to this situation.

__________________
There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Irishsean

Here's a direct quote from the site you linked to...

If the people this affected didn't care for 38 years, why should anyone else?

Heres a direct quote from another website run by the so called USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc...

Hmmm, Israel controls the US congress. I've heard this rhetoric spouted before. More crazies spouting propaganda and conspiracy theories? Perhaps...

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Telluride

If I remember correctly, not all crimes are subject to the Statute of Limitations.

If this is a war crime, would it be subject to a Statute of Limitations? If so, maybe somebody should notify the people who are still chasing ex-Nazis and trying to put them on trial.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Telluride

Did you read the war crimes report?

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

The US has also refused to allow other countries to interview or bring charges against our troops or commanders in "Friendly-fire" incidents, so why should any other country allow us to do it to them. Makes ya think a bit there...

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

bparker805

moment taken....

Telluride

This is BS for two reasons:

1) Immoral behavior on the part of one person/group of people does not justify immoral behavior on the part of another person/group of people.

2) It's very possible that this wasn't a "friendly fire" incident.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

How is it BS?

Our government won't let other countries do it to us, and yet these people want our government to do the same thing it says is ridiculous to put our troops thru to another country? Are these other countries not as good as red-blooded american citizens? Is it because they are israeli's and we all know that they secretly control the US congress?

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Telluride

I explained why it was BS in my previous post.

1) You are are trying to use the bad behavior of one person/group to justify the bad behavior of another person/group. I don't think it's okay for any country to prevent its military personnel or even regular citizens from being tried for legitimate crimes committed in other countries except in cases where it's obvious that the defendant can't get a fair trial.

2) There's a very real possibility that this wasn't "friendly fire". If the war crimes report is accurate - Hey, have you read it yet? - there may have been violations of some very valid laws. And if the attack was intentional, could it be considered an act of war?

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

Something that happened 38 years ago that both countries agreed was an accident probly doesn't count as an act of war...

And yes, I did read the "War crimes report." It was almost laughable. Do you really expect the high and mighty US government to go back and admit they were wrong for the last 38 years? I don't think so.

Reading some of the personaly web pages of the members of this organization is a riot! Its like a conspiracy therists wet dream! Somehow these guys don't have the common sense to know having people who routinely accuse the US government of everything from hiding aliens to working for the israeli's to take over the world on their side is a bad thing?

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Telluride

If what the war crimes report says is accurate, this may not have been an accident.

If what the war crimes report says is accurate, legitimate laws may have been broken even if it was an accident.

And, for the record, I never said it was an act of war. I asked if it was.

Is it laughable because you think it's factually incorrect, or because you think it's silly for anyone to expect the government to admit it was wrong or possibly even lying for the last 38 years?

If a conspiracy theorist said that the sun was the center of the solar system, would he be wrong simply because he's a conspiracy theorist?

If the government is hiding aliens (and I'm pretty sure they aren't) I'd like to meet them, and I have no axe to grind against Israelis or Jewish people in general. But on the issue of the USS Liberty, I want to make sure that the issue has been investigated fully and impartially.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

You personally may not have any problems with israeli's, but this group seems like it has major problems with them, anti-israeli and anti-semetic propaganda abounds...

__________________
There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Irishsean

Well, my quote said...

What do you think I meant?

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Telluride

I'm only concerned with the facts regarding the attack on the USS Liberty, not someone's opinion on aliens or Jews (unless they bash Ayn Rand, because I might get defensive about that). Like I said before; I don't have any problem with Israelis or Jewish people in general.

If the information presented in the war crimes report is accurate, I'd say it absolutely justifies an investigation. I don't have any ulterior motives and I'm not trying to demonize anyone or make anybody look bad. I just want the truth to be known regardless of whose side of the story they validate.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

maleficent

I'm curious... why this incident? This is surely not the first incident of it's kind in US History, what makes this one a cause of yours?

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Telluride

It sounded to me like you were questioning the willingness of the government to possibly admit an error or that it was lying more than you were questioning the accuracy of the war crimes report. But I didn't want to assume anything or put words in your mouth.

It was the part that described the report as "almost laughable" that made me unsure.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Irishsean

Well, I admire your motives then.

But the fact remains that this was brought up by a group of people who have a long history of making wild theories and claims that bash Israel and jewish people. That alone makes me wonder how many of the "facts" brought up in this report have been really and honestly given, or whether their beliefs have colored their recollection of the facts.

It's like the boy who cried wolf, its hard to take them seriously.

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There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

aKula

Those crazy time zones are at it again. Mr Mephisto lives in Australia we're around 16 hours ahead of the USA so that often translates to a day ahead.

Telluride

I'm sure there are plenty of incidents that I don't know about. But - and I always include this disclaimer because I don't pretend to know the facts of the incident - if the information in war crimes report is correct, there is a very real possibility that the attack was intentional and there doesn't appear to have been an impartial investigation. And if this the case, that is hugely unfair not only to the crew of the USS Liberty but to the people of America and Israel.

If the attack was intentional and then covered up by the American and Israeli governments , the crew of the USS Liberty deserves to have the truth be known, and Americans and Israelis should be made aware of the dishonorable actions of their respective governments.

If an impartial investigation determines that the attack was unintentional, it should be made known so people don't spend the rest of eternity hating the Israelis for something they didn't mean to do.

I didn't actually start this thread to debate the issue. I just thought it would be nice to show respect for the crew of the USS Liberty. I wouldn't have been bothered if somebody had posted something like, "You know; I've looked at the facts of the incident and I think this was probably just a big mistake." It wasn't the disagreement that bothered me, but the fact that some of the criticism seemed very harsh and unfair.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

n0nsensical

I don't see why everyone needs to jump on him. I'm personally glad he posted it, because I didn't know about it, and it's good to know. I will now refrain from making any comments about how Israel always does the right thing.

__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

Marvelous Marv

I have read about this before, and it certainly appeared to be a cover-up. One of the survivors lives near me, and he was interviewed in the local paper awhile back. He is believable in his allegations.

It's also hard for me to understand anyone who would oppose an investigation of a government cover-up, especially with the information that Galt provided. It falls under the category of "Never again," like the Holocaust. And for that matter, Ruby Ridge, but no one even seems angry that the FBI agents were documented as liars in that court case.

When the CIA director, the NSA director, and the Secretary of State all made the statements they did, it appears that anyone who blithely dismisses this has not taken the time to read the information at the links that were provided.

I'm with Galt on the moment of silence.

MSD

Upon my initial encounter with this thread, I had assumed it to be an anti-Israel troll (there have been many in the past,) but something in the back of my mind convinced me to look further into the situation. I was surprised to find that this is a serious topic that still merits discussion 38 years later, and proceeded to engage in several hours' worth of research. I've drawn a few conclusions and found myself left with many more questions than answers.

It appears almost entirely indisputable that this was an intentional attack intended to destroy a US surveilance ship. For those who didn't read the report, here is a brief summary from both the report and my research:

Preceding the incident, Israeli aircraft circled the area and flew over the ship every 40 minutes during daylight hours, making visual identification and reportedly waving to crewmen on the deck. Several hours after Israeli commanders positively identified the ship as the USS Liberty, a number of Israeli planes (the planes flew at least 30 sorties) and three torpedo boats began an attack on the ship.

The attack lasted for several hours, during which aircraft and torpedo boats fired hundreds of rockets that targeted communications equipment and the four .50-cal deck guns, attacked the ship with constant machine-gun fire that strafed the entire ship and was directed toward any personnel who appeared on the decks as well as lifeboats that were deployed to evacuate the injured, and fired at least two, and possibly three torpedos, one of which impacted the ship and opened a 39-foot hole at the waterline.

When communication equipment was able to be used once Israeli jamming equipment was out of range, US aircraft were sent; these aircraft broadcast an unencrypted message over channels known to be monitored by all militaries indicating that the attacking aircraft and ships would be intercepted at which point the aircraft left the area and the torpedo boats ceased firing and offered assistance to the USS Liberty. At one point, armed Israeli helicopters carring numerous uniformed troops approached the Liberty, but left after the captain ordered the crew to man the deck guns (the ship's only armaments, intended only to prevent hostile forces from boarding the ship.)

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the US investigation concluded that the Israeil report that claimed the incident was due to misidentification was accurate, and the subject was all but dropped. One US official who submitted a report for the investigation has stated that the portion of the final report attributed to him is not what he submitted and is a false account intended to agree wtih the official story.


After researching, I am left with more questions than answers. Here are some of the major ones, with speculation and comments. I am asking these after drawing the conclusion that it was an intentional attack and that no misidentification occured.

-What did Israel have to gain by attacking an unarmed ship of their strongest diplomatic ally?

Taking a step backwards into a more general question, why would someone attack a ship during a time of war? Possibilities include:

--prevention of attack (unlikely as it was unarmed and neutral in the war)
--capture of cargo or technology (this was a research ship, and nothing of strategic military value would survive such an attack. Communications and surveilance equipment would be damaged beyond repair and be worthless to researchers, and the ship was powered by a conventional engine, so acquisition of nuclear material is not a possible motive,)
--deterrence (again, a neutral ship owned by a friendly nation would not be a logical target)
--termination of the target's nonagressive activities (this seems to be the only possibility, as the Liberty was monitoring communications at the time and none of the other strategic motivations make sense.)
--revenge (for what?)

This leaves me with yet another question, why would Israel's military want to stop a friendly nation who supported their actions from monitoring communications, and most likely passing on intelligence?

If we were to assume that this was an official, legitimate order from the top of the chain of command, the only reason that they would engage in what would be considered an act of war if done by most countries is that they were planning to do something to get ahead in the war that even the US would not allow them to do. The only thing that serious is the use of nuclear weapons, which they did not subsequently use, leaving this question unanswered.

The answer with which I am most comfortable is that this is a real-life case of the cliché from war movies of a crazed rogue commander acting on his own paranoia and delusion.


-Why did the United States Government act to cover up the incident?

This is the only question that I can answer with relative confidence. The most likely answer is that they did not want to turn public sentiment against Israel. At the time, we had one strong ally in the Middle East, an area in which it is advantageous to have allies, and we did not want to risk losing that ally due to a lack of public support. I can't envision any other reason for us to cover up such an atrocity; perhaps someone else can come up with something (preferably not relying on paranoid visions of a Zionist world government.)


The last of the three I'm going to throw down is a multi-part question
-Where in the chain of command did the order to attack originate, and how did this commander convince dozens of military personnel to launch an attack on hundreds of a friendly nation's servicemen and tens of millioins of dollars of equipment owned by that nation?

The first part is the only answer that can really offer a solution to this mystery. If the person who initiated the attack could be found, and his motivations determined, this could be sent to the history books and left to rest.

The second part is similarly important, as it is important to uncover the disturbing reality of how dozens of people could be convinced that a friendly vessel (a fact confirmed by numerous patrols over several days by the same people who carried out the attack.)

The fog of war would not cause enough confusion for dozens of people to take actions that contradicted logic and proven facts. While military training teaches people to follow orders without question, such an order is too unusual and counterintuitive for people to simply follow it without question. It is almost completely implauisble that anyone of high rank would be capable of locating and arranging groups of so many people from several branches of the armed forces who are united by an ideology so radical that they would be willing to take such actions.

The last possiblity I can think of at the moment is that a person with access to the military units involved (maybe an extremist from an intelligence service psy ops division,) was able to use some sort of drug-induced brainwashing to convince the attackers that they had not been observing a US ship, but rather a disguised enemy. The use of psychoactive drugs in military operations goes back decades, with some notable examples being the testing of extremely high doses of LSD on British troops (some disturbing videos of the results have been made public,) the use of fear-inhibiting drugs on WWII Japanese kamikaze pilots, and various tests of judgement-altering substances by US intelligence services.

FunStuff

I am hazy on details, although when I have more time, I can look them up. What was alleged by some of the officers was that this SURVEILLANCE SHIP observed some actions on the part of Israel that Israel very much wanted to keep from becoming public.


Yep.


Nope.


Nice deductive reasoning.


By giving the order.

No. As I said, it was deliberate.

Telluride

To be fair, I have to point out that no country always does the right thing. Even countries that are basically good screw up now and then.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Marvelous Marv

That's very generous, but to knowingly attack and kill soldiers of an ally can't be reduced to being called "screwing up."

pattycakes

........ moment of silence


now all of you quit your bitching take a fucking moment and rember them.

the reason they teach history in school, is so history dosent repeat its self

so rember it!

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majie

A very good source of information about this incident is a book named "Body of Secrets" by James Bamford in chapter 7, called Blood. I'll paraphrase it, but I highly recommend the book for the detail and many other recently declassified events you have never heard about in school. Everything stated below is from "Body of Secrets"

The Liberty was one of a few ships designed by the NSA for use as ocean going electronic servailance platforms. The ship was supposed to be positioned about 100 miles off the coast of Isreal and Egypt to monitor activities on both sides of the border during the 6 Days War of 1967. But these revised orders never reached the ship so the ship was positioned 12 miles off the coast with orders to monitor UHF transmissions as it had origionally been instructed prior to the breakout of the war.

During the first three days of the war, Isreal trounced Egyption forces. One Isreali general estimated that Egyptian casualties ranged from 7 to 10 thousand killed compared to only 275 Isreali deaths in his army. The Isrealis were ruthless and are known to have attacked and killed 14 soldiers who were part of an unarmed UN observation force of Indian troops flying under the UN flag. These troops had stopped and pulled over to allow the Isreali forces to pass when they were attacked. The tanks literally put their guns into the vehicals and fired point blank.

Isreal had been so successful in the first few days of the war that they found themselves with more prisoners than they could handle. At El Arish, the town 12 miles from the Liberty, Isreali soldiers began lining up and executing prisoners and civilians by the hundreds. The Liberty was recording all the radio traffic in the area. The ship was documenting these war crimes and the source of the orders to commit them. At the same time Isreal was committing these war crimes, Isreal was trying to convince the world that they were being persecuted by the Egyptians and held the moral high ground.

An Isreali reconnaissance plane identified the nature of the Liberty and reported the ship to the Isreali government. This is when the hours of circling followed by the attacks described above happened. The description of the attack in Body of Secrets is many pages long and includes accounts from many of the ships crew. In total 34 servicemen were killed and 171 more were injured.

In the days after the attack, Isreal tried to claim that the attack was an accident because the ship was misidentified as an Egyptian ship 1/4 the tonnage and 1/2 the length that was known to be rusting along side a pier 250 miles away from the incident. The Isrealis even claimed the ship was not flying any flag at the time.

The Johnson administration was planning to run for re-election the following year and felt it needed the pro-Isreal votors to win, so it covered up the attack. Subsequently, Congress covered up the event for the same reason.

The highest ranking Isreali officer in the area of El Arish? Ariel Sharon. Ever heard of him?


To repeat what I state above, these details come from the book "Body of Secrets" by James Bamford. The sources for this book are meticulously documented and cross referenced. Sources include many high ranking officials from the NSA, CIA, Pentagon, Congress and recently declassified materials. I also highly recommend Bamford's first book "The Puzzle Palace."

Biscuit Buns

Moment of silence here....

A simple moment of respectful silence was asked for and disrespect came from all corners. What's so difficult about taking it or leaving it, so to speak? Discussion is great and all, but for cryin' out loud, don't take your day's stresses out on a harmless request.

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A hard man is good to find. ~Mae West

raeanna74

I take a moment of silence.

I don't remember every date that things like this happened. If I did I probably should take a moment to remember those to died and their families. Whether this was intentional or accidental. There were men that died while obeying their country and going to another land where they were in potential danger. It doesn't matter whether it was accidental or intentional, their families have lost them forever. Some men, the survivors are 'marked' forever by the damage done to their bodies.

I'm disappointed in the attitude of many who posted here. If those of you who argued over it, want to debate it then you should post a separate thread elseware. In the meantime, if you feel that other 'significant' dates have been jilted then you should take it upon yourself to 'honor' them yourselves.

Some dates stick out more for some of us than they do for others. Partially because of how the news hits us and our maturity level and emotional state at the time. I'm guessing this is the case with this date for you Galt, am I correct?

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Gilda

Here are a few links to provide a little balance to the versions cited above:

A short, annotated version of the events:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...y/liberty.html

A much longer, extensively annotated version:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../liberty1.html

The primary sources used in the articles:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ibertytoc.html

Edit: The links seem to be working now. If they don't work for you, just cut and paste the url into your browser and it should get you there.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

majie

Gilda,

Thank you for the source. Excellent find! It definitely balances the details in my reference. I should have provided more than a single source for the event.

Your links cannot be followed, however, because of the way the site is arranged, but anyone actually interested in learning more about the incident should go to the main site after following Gilda's links then follow the links in this order:

The Library
History
Myths & Facts On line
The 1967 Six-Day War

and then proceed to the bottom question referencing the Liberty.


The wonderful thing about life is the three truths to every shared moment. One person's version, another person's version and what really happened. History provides us with enough information to understand that nearly every day is cause for a moment of silence in recognition of some tragedy or event worth remembering to someone.

I feel it is our individual responsibility to live our lives in a way that not only honors these moments, but also honors these same moments from the perspective of the other parties involved. It is our responsibility to not just push a tragedy back and forth between ourselves in acts of retribution.

A moment of silence observed.