Gilda

My wife and I got into this discussion earlier tonight. Each of us believes that she is the better driver. It turns out that this is because each of us is applying different standards to determine what it is that makes a person a "good driver". My main standards are safe, law abiding, and courteous. Her main standard seem to be "ability to operate the vehicle safely in a high risk situation".

Here is the situation that prompted the discussion. She thinks I'm too timid behind the wheel. I am timid, but it's not something that causes me any harm. We went to a movie tonight, taking my car because it gets better gas mileage than hers. I got to the movie theater, and pulled into the left turn lane and signaled, and waited for traffic to clear enough for me to make my turn. Approaching from the other direction was a row of cars. They were going over a really nasty speed bump, which caused them to bunch up at the bump, then spread out a bit as they went over it. So I waited for the line of cars, perhaps a dozen of them, to all go past before making my turn. This irritated her, because, in her opinion, there was plenty of room to make the turn in between any two of the cars. The driver of the car behind me agreed with her; he began honking after the fourth or fifth car went past.

Grace was right as far as she was concerned. There was enough room for her to make the turn, and she undoubtedly would have done so. But she wasn't driving, I was. I was also right; there wasn't enough room in between any two of the cars that I felt comfortable making the turn, and it was only a matter of waiting a minute for them all to clear before completing the turn. I saw no reason to take the chance when, at worst, it was a minor inconvenience to wait a minute for it to be safe.

So I'm timid when making left turns; I wait until I have a nice, large gap to get into. I see this as absolutely harmless, but it irritates her because it's a "waste of time". I'd rather sacrifice time for safety.

This means waiting sometimes. If the light turns yellow, and I have room to stop, I stop. She'll try to scoot through on yellow. This gets particularly contentious at the light nearest our home. There's a left turn lane with a dedicated arrow, and no left turn on solid green. The left turn green arrow lasts about a second, then goes yellow and red. There's time for maybe three or four cars on green, but most drivers will go ahead and go through on yellow, making it so another three or four go through then. If the light turns yellow before I get there, even if only two or three cars have gone through, I stop. It means waiting maybe 45 seconds for another cycle, but that's negligible in the grand scheme of things, and again, I don't feel comfortable taking the chance.

I also require a much larger gap to change lanes on the highway than she does; I have on rare occasion missed an exit as a result of not being able to get into the correct lane to make a turn. Again, this seems to me a minor inconvenience, especially as I always allow enough time to get to my destination.

She does things that irritate me just as much, like driving 85-90 on the interstate (speed limit 70 around here), and generally driving a lot more aggressively, taking turns hard, going through intersections on yellow, not coming to a complete stop at all stop signs, making left turns into gaps half the size of some I'd let go by, and so forth. I see this as risky behavior.

I've said in the parallel parking thread that I can't park going in backwards, but with my car it really isn't necessary, and in that way, she's the better driver. I also can't drive a stick, but both of our cars are automatics, so that's entirely irrelevant in our case, but I will concede that she drives a stick better than I do, as I can't.

However, I've never been in an accident while driving, and I've never gotten a ticket. She's been in two accidents and gotten three moving violations in the four years we've been together. I believe that this indicates that, despite being more timid behind the wheel, that very quality makes me a safer, and thus, better driver. Her contention is that because she's more "assertive" (I'd say aggresssive) and takes more chances, she's better prepared for an emergency. This might make sense if it weren't for the fact that I have no accidents, and she has two.

So, what makes a person a good driver? What criteria should be used to determine this?

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Latch

This reminds me of the famous quote (which I believe is correctly attributed to George Carlin):
It kinda shows how everyone has their own standards to driving, and the way they do it is the best.

I'm afraid I fall into the same category than Grace, as I am more "assertive". I haven't had any accidents or as many moving violations as she has though, so maybe I'd drive with her and think she was being too reckless.

As for the criteria of what makes a "good driver", I suppose the official answer would be: if you could take your current driving style, and use it on the driver license test, and pass, you'd make a good driver.

I'd fail. I think most people would fail. I go over the speed limit by a little bit (usually 10kph over at the max), I (like most others) cut into roundabouts when there's space, not exactly when it's the best time to go, and I rush through a yellow light.

When I came to Australia, one of the biggest things I had to handle driving-wise (besides the whole "other side of the road" thing) was the fact that they are much safer drivers, in general. They stick closer to the speed limit and they don't take as many chances as people did back home (in the States). Now what I claim to be "assertive" is actually fairly tame compared to how I (and most others) used to drive elsewhere.

This rambling post can be summed up like this: It's about perspective. Everyone has a different comfort level in relation to driving. Because of that, there are varying amounts of confidence and control. I don't think there can be a solid line drawn and everyone who is over the line is considered to be a bad or unsafe driver. I think it can only be done on a person by person basis. Unfortunately, some people are over-confident and it can result in some bad decisions/consequences. But as the quote above says, no matter how you drive, there are always going to be people that think you're too timid, and there's always going to be people who think you're too assertive.

StanT

I'd consider myself a "skilled" driver, rather than a good one. If you need someone to drive you through a blizzard or on ice, I'm better than anyone I know. I've practiced emergency maneuvers on ice and can control skids and spins. I can control my motorcycle at 135 and scrape the footpegs constantly while going around turns. I tend to drive my car too fast and had to consciously tone down my driving style when I moved from Chicago to Colorado. For the most part, I find driving boring and don't pay as much attention as I should.

Seeker

I would consider a good driver to be aware of their capabilities moreso than anothers perceived rating.

A good driver knows the road rules, knows their car and their ability whilst opperating it. A good driver will also be aware of the fact that there are other people using the road so they will check for traffic, look before changing lanes, remember that they don't want to upset or hinder other drivers, they are courteous.

I would probably be considered an agressive driver. Sometimes cars have two speeds.. top and stop. But I am always courteous and patient with others on the road that don't want to be driving the same way I do. I tend to get irritated by oblivious drivers.

If I were behind you at the left turn, I would have been frustrated or irritated but then I would also stop myself to realise that you were only doing what you felt confident enough to do. I wouldn't have honked.

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Grasshopper Green

The best driver, in theory, is the one that gets you to your destination safely and without breaking any laws. The thing is, you have to take into consideration that the flow of traffic around you, especially on the highway. The speed limit here is 70; anyone actually going 70 is "too slow" and has cars overtaking them constantly. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life that isn't going to change.

I speed. Not much in the city, but I speed on the highway because I don't like the feeling of cars overtaking me constantly. It makes me feel unsafe. Isn't that ironic?

I think I am the better driver in most ways between me and my husband; he tends to get too involved in conversation to pay attention to what he's doing and sometimes scares me. He doesn't really know the rules of things like 3 or 4 way stops, and I'll have to tell him if he has the right of way. However, he is much better at handling the car in snow and ice; winter conditions scare the crap out of me and I avoid driving then at all costs.

I do think anyone who talks on their cell phone while driving is a bad driver; this is a major pet peeve of mine. I can't tell you how many near accidents I have been in or witnessed due to someone yakking away and not paying attention.

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ObieX

Basically what i would have said.

I don't think most people realize just how insanely dangerous driving is. Its very easy to get yourself or someone else killed while driving, and i don't think many people really give a damn.

And even if you don't care about your life or other's lives and olny care about money, the amount of damage a 5mph bump can cause on a car these days is crazy. You tap something going a measly 5mph and you have multiple thousands of dollars worth of damage on your car, or it may even be completely totaled. All in the name of safety, im sure, but it's gotten pretty ridiculous.

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shakran

You're not really giving enough information. You say you require a larger gap to merge. How big is it? 50 yards? 100?

It sounds from your post like you both could use some driving improvement. If she's had 2 wrecks and 4 tickets, she probably needs to calm down. But if you're so timid that you piss off the driver behind you when you're waiting to turn left, that can cause wrecks too - An angry driver is an unsafe driver. So you probably need to get more comfortable with driving.

You both could probably use some work on handling the car at its limits (like you would have to if you slipped on ice or you had to swerve to avoid something at the last minute) Most drivers are not very good at this because they never get any practice with it - - and if you do practice it on the street you get pulled over

A good way to get great driving experience is to find your local autocross club and start driving in it. They're very safe - the worst you'll hit would be a traffic cone since you're the only car on the course - they're low speed - if you get to 40mph you're in a VERY fast autocross, and it really teaches you how cars behave at their limits.

william

It's obvious you don't live in SoFL. If you did, you would have mentioned how she was on the cell phone. It's a big problem here, but our leaders (?) won't deal w/it.
Anyway - back to your question - What makes a good driver? Time and experience. Driving is a skill that one does not learn overnight. It takes a lot of time on the road learning how you drive, as well as learning those around you. People state that they are an expert on the road; yet they know nothing about the person next to them. You can't. Should you have changed lanes - maybe. Is the thought of saving a couple of seconds worth days in the hospital? People see cars, as well as cellphones, as an extension of themselves.

powerclown

What makes a person a good driver?

Situational awareness. Knowing when to be aggressive, knowing when to be passive. Too slow is as inappropriate as too fast. Doing one's part to keep traffic affected by you flowing at a safe, appropriate speed. Don't hit other cars, don't cause other cars to hit you. There is a Zen to driving in traffic. Except in New York City, where Automotive Anarchy reigns and its every man, woman and child for themself!!!

f6twister

What does she consider a high risk situation? For some people that means responding to an emergency like a tire blowout or losing control on a slippery road. To others, it simply means driving when there are 3 or more cars traveling next to you.

Sounds like road rage on his part.

There is being cautious and there is being an inconsiderate driver. Traffic laws were designed with two things in mind, safety and keeping the flow of traffic moving. Both need to be considered in almost all driving situations. When deciding if a turn is safe I ask myself if I need to rush to get through the turn. If I can make the turn without slamming on the gas or without making the other person hit their brakes, then it is safe. How would that criteria fit your situation?

Scary! You are right on this one. Yellow lights are a chance for traffic to clear the intersection. If you can stop safely, you are to stop. Usually, the only time stopping would not be safe is if you have to lock up your brakes to stop.

The way I was taught to change lanes was to watch your mirror. When both headlights of the other vehicle are visible in your rearview mirror, you have enough room. I have found that this gap is actually larger than necessary but I guess for safety purporses, it works. In cases where you missed the exit, were you driving in a familiar area where you knew the exit was coming up soon? If so, you may need to anticipate your needs better and stay in the correct lane instead of trying to pass other cars and miss your exit.

Driving like this works good at Nascar but not on the roads. This certainly explains her driving record.

I would have to say that based on what is here, I would have to judge you the better driver. By what criteria did I make this decision? My main consideration is her driving record. Now, just because you don't have anything does necessarily mean that you don't violate laws. It may just mean that you were never caught. Whether you were caught or not, it shows that your wife has violated the law enough times and in front of enough wrong people to get her tickets. I can't go by accidents because I don't know who was at fault. In my state, all reportable accidents go on your record, fault or no fault. The other thing I used to decide was her reaction to your driving. I said before that there are cautious drivers and inconsiderate drivers. While I think both things need to be considered in each situation, in the end, safety comes first, then being considerate. Your wife ins't thinking of either and is risking you, herself and everyone else with her aggressive driving.

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Lockjaw

A decent driver is one that knows and can abide by the rules of the road.

A good driver is one that knows and can abide by the rules of the road, but breaks those rules and can still stay safe.

I drive like a normal person.
Signal everytime I turn. Don't run reds. Stop at all stop signs. Don't go too far over the speed limit. BUT if you are not able to adapt to the conditions and at times that envolves driving a little more aggressively....then no you are not a good driver.
My mother is like that. She follows all the traffic laws but the second let's say she gets into rush hour traffic she freakin panics. I mean she hunches over the wheel,she starts like moving the wheel around too much,over checks her mirrors and is not decisive on her movements and judgements. To me it's far more frightening being in a car with somebody who looks like they aren't comfortable behind the wheel and unsure of their own judgement who are following the laws but mainly out of fear, than being in a car with a person breaking the law by speeding or not giving a 5 car spacing going 70...IF they are confident and comfortable.

But the only good drivers are people that go to a REAL driving school (the kind that teach you how to control a skid and push a car to it's limits etc).Something I think that more folks should do. A lot of wrecks are caused by people panicking and not knowing hot to react to a situation.

Siege

I kind of need to disagree with this. This might be your opinion of what a good driver is (and I totally respect this), but I myself have never gotten into an accident, nor have I gotten any tickets, and if i'm not in a rush, I don't break any laws (be they speed limits, stop signs, whatever).

However, I would say that I am NOT a good driver (how many people say THAT?! ). I would say that i'm fairly skilled (I can do all the maneuvers) but I think that alone isn't enough. I don't pay enough attention because I get bored extremely easily, and that's why I think i'm not a good driver.

My definition of a good driver is one who is well aware of their surroundings (paying attention), and has good skill (like one of the previous posters who can drive in a blizzard etc.)

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TM875

You, sir, are the winner! This is exactly how I feel about driving. Your job, while on the road, is to do as much as you can to keep yourself and others around you safe and to not disrupt traffic flow.

I'll explain. Back in the day, it was my mother that taught me to drive. Now, being a personal injury attorney, she was extremely over-cautious. One thing that is exceptionally important, and something that she couldn't grasp the concept of, is keeping up with traffic (especially on freeways around me...anyone been on I-95 in the Northeast? Yeah, you know what I mean). Now, going the speed limit is all fine and dandy, when appropriate, but on some highways it's not only impossible, but also unsafe. When you're going 55, and all of the cars behind you are traveling at 65 or above, there's bound to be a congestion centered around their immediate lane changes. You're putting a greater majority in danger by going at a (legal) pace than if you'd speed up to the rate of traffic. The person just keeping up with the car ahead and behind him is not going to get a moving violation.

Likewise, city driving is, in itself, a great art. I never perfected it (I haven't lived in a big city), but it's something that I can handle. Driving is an experience when you have to become one with your vehicle, know all of its quirks, know what it can and can't do, and be able to interpret what others on the road are going to do.

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TM875

I find that on long freeway trips, I get extremely bored and sleepy if I'm not moving at least at 70mph. The faster one goes, the more important it is for the brain to keep active. Low speeds draw you in to a false sense of security and mental boredom.

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stingc

I would define a good driver to be one who could most safely handle the largest variety of maneuvers. So a professional race car driver would rank very high on this, even though he may choose to drive unsafely (the point being that whichever way he does choose to drive, it would be more safe than if someone else tried to replicate his driving style).

Cartuni

My opinion...

Obedient to traffic laws
Good reaction time (develops with experience)
Good judgment – knowing when to hit the brakes and when to accelerate to avoid a problem
Constantly on the defensive – knowing where the fools & pitfalls are at all times
Never distracted for more than a nanosecond
Considerate to other drivers

The weirdest bad driving I have witnessed in the last year:

Driver eating a bowl of cereal with milk while driving (seen this three different times)

Turning left at night from the right hand lane…on a red light…pulling a trailer (happened right in front of me)

So impatient to get into the left turn lane, which was blocked by traffic waiting to go straight, that the driver bottomed out their car driving over the curb (seen this twice – nice cars, too)

And this one – driver in a big truck pulling an expensive boat...traveling too fast…van pulls in front of him without using turn signal…he stomps on the brakes and jackknifes the boat…ends up flying into a Wendy’s front window, five feet off the ground. When two idiot drivers meet, it ain't pretty.

One more thing - here's a trick someone taught me about waiting for traffic to clear: count the seconds (you know, one-one thousand, two-one thousand). Ninety-nine percent of the time you'll be able to proceed in less than 30 seconds. So you're not wasting THAT much time to be safe.

Borgs

Looking out for other drivers as well as yourself, as well as someone who assumes that everyone else driving is an idiot. My dad taught me this philosiphy, and it works quite well.

diddagirl

I would consider a "good driver" someone who is very alert and aware of what other cars around them are doing. Someone who only drives at a speed in which they are still able to have 100% control of their car, even in tricky situations.
I would for sure consider myself a good driver. I am cautious, yet not ridiculous. I have never almost put myseld in an accident situation, yet I had to make quick decisions to get myself out of a possible accident that was someone elses fault.

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Sage

I think I'm a good driver- I have misjudged things sometimes, and have gotten speeding tickets in the past but I've toned it down over the years. I freak Martel out a little bit because I apparently drive my car (a 1990 Jeep Cherokee) like he drives his car (2002 VW GTI). But I know what my car can do, I know where my bumpers are (which he doesn't), and I know how to drive in sleet and ice and snow (helpful here in the mountains.) Personally, to me a good driver is someone who doesn't drive like a dick. If it's two in the morning, and you're running every red light, then you're a dick. People who drive like their hair is on fire and they're trying to make it to the ER before it all burs away annoy me.

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Siege

I can go 130km/h and still be bored.

Not sure about where you live, or what routes you travel, but the highways I go on are always so straight. So going at 130-140 still seems extremely slow.

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lurkette

I would say a good driver is someone who:

-is attentive to surroundings (weather, traffic, watching the road and not the radio)
-maintains a safe distance from other cars for his/her reflexes and car's capabilities
-thinks ahead - don't wait till the last 1/4 mile to change 3 lanes to get to your exit
-drives at a controllable speed (no need to drive 55, but don't be driving 90 when it starts raining and the roads are slick)
-demonstrates concern for the safety of other drivers (no cutting people off or trying to merge into them)
-drives appropriately for the situation

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World's King

Road head...


Oh wait, that's Bad Driver.

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Supple Cow

I don't think control & skill in maneuvering the vehicle and good (safe, defensive) judgement should be mutually exclusive in defining good driving. I have to see someone demonstrate both before I really trust them behind the wheel... and I can count all the people I trust behind the wheel on one hand. Sounds like you and Grace make one good driver together.

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doodlebird

this is my number peeve about drivers on the road. IMHO, almost every accident should be a one car accident. if you're leaving enough room in front of you to react, then you'll never hit someone else from behind.

you can drive just as fast as the car in front of you... but try leaving 30 yards instead of <10 ft.

travelling at 60 mph, you'll cover the 30 yards in just over 1 second. better yet, try 50 yds. it'll still be less than 2 seconds difference, and it'll save you thousands of $ and perhaps your life.

i'm with gilda on the cautious side. i used to drive crazy, but there's too many reasons not to.

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snowy

This is so true around the Portland area--there are stretches of freeway where if you're not going 70, you're clogging up everyone behind you, which isn't safe (even though going 70 is speeding). There IS a Zen to driving in traffic, and as I learned to freeway-drive on the Sunset Highway (an abominable piece of freeway in the Portland suburbs) I'm quite skilled at it now.

What makes a good driver? In my opinion, it's someone who is focused, attentive to the task at hand, knowledgeable of their car's capabilities, is cautious but not overly so (I had a friend who was so cautious she wouldn't go through drive-thrus), can drive assertively when the situation calls for it, and able to show flexibility given difficult/different driving situations. My dad is the best driver I know--yes, he drives fast and sometimes in an assertive manner, but he is always safe about it, knows what his car can handle, and does well even in heavy traffic.

A bad driver is someone who is overly cautious or overly risky (moderation between the two is key), pushes their car too hard, speeds in situations where speeding is not called for (going 90 on a straight, dry freeway is a bit different than going 90 on a wet, curvy country road), and is distracted easily (one friend would turn her head completely to talk to you, taking her eyes off the road).

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Suave

Ah yeah. I'm personally of the "follows the rules" paradigm. Drive defensively (albeit not too defensively), within the buffer above the speed limit, etc. is my idea of the best driver. My dad is the other type of good driver. He's just good as in he can push the limits in every possible way without actually hurting anyone. He's a skilled driver. I'm a proper driver. The difference is, if I screw up I normally have enough time and decent enough conditions to correct. He can't screw up; if he does, something bad will happen. However, he doesn't screw up (or if he does, it's extremely rare).

So both are good in different areas. Proper versus skilled. I suppose someone can be both, but I'll bet it's rare.

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Fate

hm, tonight I was driving home in the dark and I saw a racoon in the middle of my lane street. It was just staring at me, unmoving like a lump of dirt, I casually went around it without hesitating, I didn't hit the breaks or run over it (as fun as that might sound) and it walked away from where it was, completely undisturbed. I believe making the right judgements at the right time allows someone to be a good driver, keeping in mind safety is always a priority, but keeping in mind burning some treads is a great way of getting there fast.

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Martian

I think this is what it comes down to (picked one of several here). There's two components to driving : being aware of your vehicle and being aware of the other vehicles on the road. It all comes down to awareness and attention.

You ned to be aware of what the vehicle you're driving is capable of and what the vehicles around you are capable of. For example, I always give 18 wheelers a wide berth when possible and never sit behind them; I'll either speed up and get ahead or slow down and stay behind a truck on the road. This is a form of situational awareness, as I know that truckers suffer from limited visibility when compared to passenger cars and while most truck drivers are very good at what they do (due to spending so much time on the road primarily) there are those that aren't and even the best make mistakes. It's my job to make sure I'm not the victim of those mistakes.

I'd say my driving style is close to your wife's, with one important difference. I've never been ticketed and I've never been in a collision in my 7 years of licensed driving (and 5 or 6 of unlicensed driving before that, although to be fair most of that was out in fields where a collision with a cow was much more likely than another car). I chalk this up to awareness; I know my car, I know how it handles in all conditions and I keep tabs on all of the drivers around me.

So yeah, that's what it comes down to. I don't think being a good driver is a function of being timid or aggressive; both types of drivers get into collisions. It's more a result of keeping track of the situation around you, knowing the car you drive and knowing your own limits.

MiSo

my definition of a good driver is one who can makes cool calm decisions in a split second.
someone who has good observation skills and knows the limit of their cars.

meaning: if you know your car can make it safely without harming anyone, then do so.

but if you're not comfortable with taking the risk then don't.
when you're behind the wheel there are lives at risk. not just yours, but your passengers and possibly lives of others involved in an accident.

Jinn

I wrote this recently in a blog but I thought I'd put it out there anyway:

Safe driver does NOT equal slow driver..

Driving slowly (at or below the speed limit) does not make you a safe or good driver -- it may in fact make you a worse driver. Driving slowly is not among the list of things that makes a person a good driver. A good driver is cognizant of the things that are happening around them: to the sides, front, and back. A good driver knows what his vehicle is doing and what kind of traction it is getting. A good driver is always aware of the weather conditions and how they affect their car, modifying speed appropriately. A good driver should know nearly as much about what is happening behind them as what is happening in front of them. This requires diligent awareness. At higher speeds, being aware of these things is ultimately critical because of the rate at which things happen: looking twelve or more seconds ahead. At slower speeds, people develop a complacent attitude that they will be able to avoid traffic problems just because they are going slowly. Not true – 40 mph is still 40 mph, whether you’re observant is the key between a collision and avoidance. The idea that speeding somehow decreases your likelihood of avoiding an accident is a complete misconception. A good driver does not enter the highway at 50 mph, cutting in front of a car doing 75 – no matter the speed limit. This presents a dangerous situation for both parties. A good driver is flexible, able to change their driving modality instantly. A good driver is monitoring all lanes of traffic for available positions that optimize their driving. A good driver can utilize all the speeds and gear speeds of their car to achieve their exact goal on the road.

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Gilda

Able to react quickly and decisively in an emergency. Her theory is that because she takes more risks, she'll be better prepared when an emergency occurs. My theory is that if you don't take the risks in the first place, you're less likely to need the emergency avoidance skills. And the fact that she's been in two accidents seems to support my view. She claims that because both were the other driver's fault, they shouldn't count but I still think it disproves her theory that she's better prepared in an emergency situation.

She also claims that my being timid on the road causes people behind me at left turns (this is our biggest point of conflict) to get upset, which could spark a road rage incident. My claim is that if someone else gets upset when I haven't broken the law, done something unsafe, or been discourteous, they are the cause of the problem, not me.

I once witnessed a road rage incident in front of the school where I teach. It was 2:15 in the afternoon which is bus loading time. The buses were in a loading zone off the road, the kids getting on. The law is quite clear; if the bus is not in a protected turnout (with a divider separating it from the road) or parking lot, even if it is pulled out of the flow of traffic, traffic going in both directions must stop while the children are loading with the red lights flashing and the stop sign out.

We used to have a huge problem with cars going in both directions ignoring the loading buses. There are signs all over the place approaching the school from two directions school zone, children crossing, special lower speed limits during morning and evening travel times, etc. There's no way any driver could get to the school without knowing that this was a loading/unloading zone.

On this particular day, a woman was stopped at the designated line while the buses loaded, a process that takes about 10 minutes. Traffic was backed up behind her, with several cars honking. Traffic in the other lane, going the same direction as the buses, was going right through the loading zone without stopping. A man from the line of cars backed up behind the woman who was doing exactly the right thing got out of his car, approached her and yelled at her to, "Get your fucking car off the fucking road if don't know how the fuck to drive!" One of the bus duty teachers had a cell phone with her, and called 911, which was fortunate, as the police had arrived by the time the guy had gone to his car and gotten a "tire thumper" (a lead-weighted wooden billy club) from his car and was aproaching the woman's car, enraged.

My point here is that if a man can get this pissed off because he got caught in school traffic while driving past a dozen signs to go past a school as school was getting out, if he can get this pissed off when he was clearly in the wrong and the woman was clearly in the right, then people are going to get pissed off no matter what you do. If I were more aggressive at making left turns, I might piss off the people I turn in front of. There's no way to tell one way or the other. Given that either way may cause road rage, I'll err on the side of safety.

That's what I thought; it's his problem if he thinks the gaps were large enough to get through safely. I didn't, so I didn't turn. And in the end, it meant waiting about a minute, which is at worst a minor inconvenience. Getting in an accident by being too aggressive is a major problem. I'll take a minor inconvenience over a major problem any time.

I very likely would have gotten through safely based on the criteria you list. My car, a Mini Cooper S, has plenty of get up and go, and maneuvers quite nimbly in parking lots and such. Grace was telling me she could have gotten her car, a 300c (a lot bigger and heavier than a Mini, but with a lot bigger engine, too) through those gaps, which were maybe three car lengths, with the cars going about 5mph. However, very likely isn't enough. I don't turn unless I'm absolutely sure I can do so safely. If it's a matter of waiting a minute for all the traffic to clear or taking a chance, I err on the side of caution. I'd rather wait a minute than get hit. An accident would have been a lot more of a problem than waiting a minute or a little more.

Exactly. I sometimes think I'm the only person who doesn't go through this particular left turn on yellow. Grace claims that the lights are green for such a short time and red all four ways for a second or two because the traffic engineers anticipate that people will be going through on yellow. I agree that it's foolish to have such a short green that only two, or maybe three cars can get through before it turns yellow, but I also obey the law. I know that it's a short green, so if there are three cars ahead of me, I don't even try to get up to cruising speed. I've never seen anyone but me stop at the yellow at that light, and I watch. But I think if the timing is faulty, the answer isn't to ignore the law.

What annoys me the most about how she drives is that if she loses her liscense, she loses her job. She's part of an ambulance crew, and one job requirement is holding a valid driver's license. Why take the risk to save inconsequential amounts of time?

This is what I was taught also. I leave an equivilent amount of space in front. Sometimes I'm unable to get right because there are gaps big enough to get my car into, maybe three or four car lengths, but not big enough for a save distance between my car and both the one in front and the one behind. And I'm not passing people; I invariabley will slow down to let traffic in the target lane go past in order to change lanes; slowing down gives me more opportunities and more time to change lanes.

The cases of missing the exit almost always occur on a highway I travel once or twice a week. The way it works is that there is a series of interchanges where I exit to a highway at the right, which later joins a second highway on the right, and so forth, resulting in my constantly having to change lanes to the right to stay on the highway I want to stay on. I know that if I miss my target exit, there's another one coming up that I can take and still get where I'm going, so I play it safe. Often my sister is with me, and it pisses her off to no end that I do this, because, she argues, it's heavy big city traffic; you have to take smaller gaps than you'd normally be comfortable with. I respond that I don't have to do any such thing, and what's more, I haven't had my liscence suspended (she has, which I think invalidates anything she has to say on the subject).

Two speeding tickets, one running a stop sign. Her contention is that if it's two in the morning on a rural road, slowing down to less than 5mph to check for traffic is more than safe enough. My response is that the law doesn't make exemptions for rural roads or early morning, and the cop who gave her the ticket agrees with me.

I speed on the highway on occasion, if it's necessary to stay with the flow of traffic, but never more than about 5mph over, and certainly never anything like 90 in a 65.

Both accidents were charged to the other driver. My point is that regardless of who was at fault, in both cases, she was unable to avoid the collision in an emergency situation, which invalidates her position that she's a better driver because she would be better in an emergency situation.

I don't beleive being very cautious is being inconsiderate. I'm harming nobody. She claims that I am by keeping people at lights or at intersections longer than they would otherwise be there if I were more aggressive (her word is assertive, but I see no difference here).

She wants me to just accept her judgement about when there's enough room at left turns, and after I've done a few based on her judgements, I'll see that there is plenty of time, be better able to time my turns, and I'll be a better an more courteous driver. But I refuse to take unnecessary risks just to learn how to save a few seconds when making a turn. She's the one bothered by waiting an extra 30 seconds or a minute, not me.

It's like with everything else in life. There are risks that you take because the potential benefits far outweigh the downside. But most of the time, if you can avoid a risk, it's the better course of action. Saving a minute of driving time is a tiny benefit compared to getting in a collision and losing a life, and not one I'm willing to take.

I left one out of my OP. The not being able to drive a stick thing bothers her also. It annoyed her royally that I wanted to get the Mini with the automatic transmission, even though it's a fantastic transmission. It's a CVT, an automatic without gears. She's actually said that your not really driving, you're just steering with an automatic, and that driving a stick is safer than an automatic because you have more control. This makes little sense to me. When driving a stick, you have two more things to do than when you're in an automatic, and you have to constantly be taking one hand off the steering wheel to shift, and looking at the tach so you'll know when to shift. With an automatic, all you have to do is steer, accelerate and brake; less to do, fewer distractions, more attention to focus on the road. I think she's just trying to justify that driving stick is more fun for her than an automatic, and she misses the way the engine whines and changes pitch as she goes up through the gears. She even drives her car in manual mode almost all the time (it has a transmission that operates in both modes). In any case, it's just another case of perhaps, doing things her way is better for her, but wouldn't be better for me.

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Gilda

I'd disagree that driving at the speed limit is driving slowly.

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abaya

Unbelievable. I just wrote the longest post ever and it didn't go through. Maybe it was a sign from god that I was talking too much.

Okay, I will summarize with this (still long, but cut down by half!)

1) It is a good idea to at least know how to drive a stick, for emergencies and unanticipated situations (rental cars, esp. in Europe... they look down on Americans for not knowing how to drive sticks).

2) Sticks make the driver more aware, actually, of what's going on with the engine, speed, torque, etc. But the act of shifting is pretty much unconscious for me... I never take my eyes of the road, and I certainly don't look at the tach. This is something you have to learn over years... just listening and feeling the car as you drive, not shifting when the little arrow lights up. That's why driving a stick actually makes you more conscious of the car, whereas automatics cause you to take it all for granted. Sticks are also much more effective on hills, whereas automatics are only decent for level roads.

3) Good driving is all about knowing the rules, and knowing which of them are more like "guidelines" (thank you Pirates of the Caribbean). Sometimes you have to break a law to make sure you are staying safe, believe it or not. I don't trust people who just know the rules and keep to them... I trust people who know their limits, know their car's limits, and who drive with confidence instead of fear. Healthy fear of driving is good, but not when it intimidates you from making a good, instant decision that may mean life or death, regardless of the rules.

4) I enjoy driving very much, and I see it as a challenge and an art rather than a chore. I always aim to improve my driving (these days I struggle with speed and wanting revenge on tailgaters, though I have reformed my illegal-parking ways, at least). I learned the most about driving from steering crew shells (60 feet long, 9 people's lives at stake, in the pitch-blackness at 5am with life-threatening unlit barges and buoys approaching at any time, in addition to very unpredictable weather and water conditions)... my coach, a Marine, DRILLED it into us: SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, act instad of react, ANTICIPATE EVERYTHING. Never panic, never feel that you've lost control, never be passive... and never refuse to yield. This is my attitude while driving, too... so far, 0 accidents.

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laconic1

I consider a good driver to be someone who can read traffic. What I mean by that is someone who makes the correct decisions for the matter at hand.
An example is merging into freeway traffic. This drives me crazy seeing how incompetent people are, both at merging, and letting people merge. To me a good driver realizes that when they get on the freeway, by the time they reach the merge point they need to be moving at the same speed the traffic on the freeway is moving. Too many people merge into traffic while they are still going 25-30 mph slower than the traffic they are merging into. If you are already on the freeway a good driver will move from the right lane to the left lane if room is available in the left lane to allow merging traffic more room in the right lane to merge as well. A bad driver moves from the left lane to the right lane in an area where traffic is trying to merge in.
There are a ton of other examples of what makes a good driver versus a bad one, but awareness is the key in my book.

Suave

A safe driver equals a driver who follows the rules. That includes following the speed limit, unless under "extenuating" circumstances (ie. everyone else is driving above the speed limit and therefore they must speed up to avoid crashes).

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KingOtter67

I like the 'situational awareness' answer the best. But, there is also plenty of room for courtesy. I take a lot of pride in letting people in front of me, respecting other people's blinkers, and hurrying myself up a bit if people behind me are waiting. But you certainly shouldn't hurry up past the point where you feel safe.

Generally if you asked anyone on the street they'd say they are a good driver. I think I'm a decent driver, when I'm paying attention, but like others I get bored rather easily.

The cellphone thing is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, but not in the way you'd expect. I think the danger cellphones represent is overstated.

There are many things that take attention away from the actual driving. Radios, retrieiving CD's, other car occupants, etc. But about 80% of driving needs very little attention (depending on your environment, of course). Cellphones are being villainized at the moment, but they're no worse than any other distraction.

Sure, people need to be able to say, 'Hang on, I'm making a left hand turn' and set the phone down for a minute or two while the complete whatever maneuver that needs the attention. The same way they wait to switch CDs, or swat the kids in the back seat.

But that goes back to the 'situational awareness' part. If you're in a situation where a cellphone is bad, then set it down. I don't think there is anything inherently evil in talking on a cellphone while driving.

The WORST part is I think because of the over-coverage of cellphone-while-driving threat, people look upon it as a horrendous thing, and that causes more rage than there otherwise would be.

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Lead543

FOCUS! Haha.
I've almost crashed a car into a truck and I crashed a go-kart a few weeks ago because I wasn't paying attention. I don't like driving because I have a rubberneck. I like to look at everything that goes by.

Experience is important. Knowing you vehicle. Knowing where you're going. Not worrying constantly about what other drivers are doing.

I shouldn't answer this because I don't drive.

n0nsensical

I don't think following traffic laws has anything to do with being a good driver. The laws are there for the bad drivers. If everyone was a good driver, we would need very few laws. (Only for the few situations where there need to be defined protocols, like who has the right-of-way at intersections.) Speed laws are especially irrelevant because any good driver should know what is a safe speed for the current conditions. As any drivers handbook will tell you, sometimes the maximum safe speed is less than the posted limit, and certainly in many cases, the maximum safe speed is much more than the posted limit. Especially since posted speed limits are for the average driver, but good drivers should be able to handle higher speeds. But incidentally a good driver wouldn't be breaking many existing laws, because a lot of the laws happen to restrict behaviors that would make for bad driving. And also incidentally, I would consider many people who DO follow all the laws to the letter to be bad drivers.

So what exactly is a good driver? I think there are a lot of factors. First, one who is good in the technical sense in the way a race car driver must be good, able to handle the vehicle exceptionally well in varying conditions. Second, one who drives safely, essentially meaning they don't touch anything or anyone with the vehicle other than the road surface. Being good in the technical sense is important here, since other people do unpredictable things that a good driver must be prepared for, but so is driving with common sense that wouldn't put the driver in an unsafe situation in the first place.

Finally, I would say being respectful or at least mindful of everyone else on the road, people with vehicles, including unmotorized vehicles like bicycles, and pedestrians. Part of this is allowing traffic to flow as smoothly as possible, including not tailgating or braking unnecessarily on freeways, not obstructing the flow of traffic by waiting to make a turn or for any other reason, and smoothly merging, turning, and changing between lanes. Another part is "playing nice with others" by allowing other drivers to be good drivers and simply being courteous. Allow other drivers to smoothly merge, turn, and change lanes, always use turn signals in the vicinity of other people, stay calm and try to defuse any possible road rage situations (not that a good driver should find him or herself in many of those). There's a lot to it so I've probably left something out, but I think that's a good basic set of standards.

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Coppertop

A car totalled at 5 mph? Is your car made completely of glass?

MSD

Let me start by saying that following traffic laws has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

A good driver knows his/her own ability, and how to use that ability to both get to his/her destination safely and to allow others to do the same. Legality has nothing to do with it; I can (and do) drive 100mph safely and responsibly on a freshly paved 5-lane highway with no cars within a mile of me and a 50 foot wide median covered with trees and boulders behind the guard rails. No state trooper would think twice about arresting me for a dozen offenses if I did that, but on the other hand, if he (or another car) came within half a mile of me, I'd slow down to the point that I could react properly to any hazard that might arise. I can get from the far left lane to an exit ramp across three other lanes if there's nobody around, but I wouldn't do it because even though I know I can do it safely, nobody else on the road knows that and would panic if they saw me do it.

A skilled driver has a high ability levely. A good driver knows his/her ability level and drives accordingly. A skilled driver can pull crazy and stupid stunts, while a good driver simply can avoid getting into dangerous situations drives in a manner that is safe to others who are unaware of his/her skill level.


It's the exception, not the rule, but one example is the early '90s GM F-Bodies. 5mph is enough to set off the airbag, and that throws the entire interior out of alignment enough that you're looking at 3-4k in labor charges alone, plus 1k per airbag. After that, you have to factor in damage to the outside of the car.