Grasshopper Green

I don't think you were necessarily addressing this to me, but I did mention cell phone use in my post, and would like to add something.

I live in a city. Driving in this city means lots of cars, lots of stop lights, lots of pedestrians, and lots of school zones. This is NOT a place to be using a cell phone. If you are driving on a long stretch of highway with not too much traffic..go ahead, make a phone call if need be.

I have to agree with the radios, conversations with others, etc. I've managed to find a happy medium; if I'm talking to someone, I don't take my eyes off the road; I change radio stations at lights, and don't eat/drink when I drive. These are just as legitimate concerns as cell phones, and I think plenty of people are guilty of them (myself included, although I have really tried to up my safety since my son was born). The main problem (IMO) with cell phones though, is that they are an ongoing distraction; changing a radio station takes five seconds, phone calls are absorbing and are minutes long.

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Gilda

You sound like Grace . I can't think of an emergency that would require my knowing how to drive a stick; both of our cars are automatics (hers has a manual mode), so a car with an automatic would be available in an emergency.

Do they not rent cars with automatics in Europe? I've been a couple of times, once with a boyfriend, and he drove, and the other time I stayed in the big cities and took public transportation. I wouldn't really care if some car rental person looked down on me; that would be his problem, not mine.

How, exactly, does being more aware of engine speed and torque and things like that make one a better driver? I'm not criticizing, I just don't understand. An automatic takes care of all that for you, which makes for fewer things the driver needs to pay attention to.

Also, if you don't look at the tach, how would you know when you're supposed to shift? I don't know what you mean by the little arrow; when my dad tried to teach me to drive a stick, he told me I was supposed to shift at a certain number of rpms. It was incredibly frustrating; try to take off, kill the truck by letting out on the clutch too fast or too slow, have dad complain that I was ruining his clutch, repeat until the car got going, kill the engine by shifting too soon or wander out of my lane by looking down to check the tachometer, or have dad complain that I was ruining his clutch by shifting too soon or too late, etc.

Fortunately, after about a dozen lessons that were driving us both crazy, mom took over and taught me in her car, which had an automatic. Not having to deal with a dozen other things (how fast to release the clutch, when to shift, where to put the gear shift knob, which gear to put it in when slowing down, etc.) made the process much, much faster and less frustrating.

And if it takes years to learn this, wouldn't that mean I'd be a worse driver during that time than I am now, while I was learning all these new skills that an automatic transmission takes care of for me now?

It seems to me it's like writing. Sure, I could take the time to write things out manually, using a pen and paper, but I have a machine here under my desk that does a lot of the work for me, saving me the time and effort that would go into the physical act of putting the words on paper.

How so? I'm not being confrontational, I really don't see how a stick would make driving on a hill easier.

I regularly drive over the mountains between here and the big city where I go for therapy and my sister goes for her medical treatments, a 4000 foot climb. I've never had any problem in my automatic or Grace's. My car doesn't have gears, but when driving Grace's, it just seems easier and more convenient to have the car downshift when necessary, making for one less decision I have to make.

This again sounds similar to what Grace says. But in my case, it seems a little contradicory. Yes, I have a bit of fear when it comes to making left hand turns. This makes me a safer driver than I would be if I weren't; by being cautious, I avoid potential accidents, and the only cost is an insignificant amount of time lost. Fear of being in an accident seems a good thing to me.

Again you sound like Grace (and you look a lot like her, by the way). The last time we had a big argument was over getting an automatic trasmission in my car. She kept insisting that she would teach me how to drive the stick, and that it was better for the same reasons you list above, and that it wouldn't take long, and soon I'd be just as good with a stick as I am with an automatic, and besides, it's a lot more fun to drive a sporty car with a stick than it is an automatic. There are a couple of safety features that weren't available with the automatic (traction stability control and a limited slip differential) and those were made part of her argument also.

Fun is something thats way down on the list of reasons for me to get in a car. I drive because I want to get from point A to point B. I don't want driving to be a challenge, I want it to be as easy as possible. I don't want to take risks.

I'm not sure what you mean by it being an art. I've never heard that before. Could you please explain?

Again, I'm grateful for all the feedback, and I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand a perspective different from mine. Grace gets . . . testy on this subject because she knows she's right and I'm wrong and I just can't see it. She's the kind of person who enjoys racing go-carts and watches NASCAR, though, so I guess I have to cut her a little slack.

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boom29

Many of my opinions have already been mentioned, but these I feel rather strongly about:

Not having a ticket does not equal being a good driver.
Not speeding does not equal being a good driver.
Following the traffic rules does not necessarily mean being a good driver.

I tend to agree with the post that mentions that there's a certain "Zen" to driving. Furthermore, I consider myself a good driver because I know my limits (strengths and weaknesses) and am aware of my surroundings. I am confident in the decisions that I make on the road, but also respect those of others.

On a related note: This is a really good topic/discussion.

abaya

Gilda... I can't reply in full, since I'm leaving the country soon, but I wanted to say thanks for taking my opinions with such kindness. And I'm sorry that I do come across sounding like Grace (and funny that I look like her)! but I suppose we are the same type of driver.

I didn't take offense to anything you said... (and hope you didn't take offense to my comments--I don't share the opinion of European car rentals, but I guess I have been in emergencies where someone didn't know how to drive a stick, which scared me); your driving personality is a little more like ktspktsp's, actually, so I was smiling at that while reading.

I think it takes a certain kind of personality to enjoy driving a stick... maybe it just boils down to a need for control, I'm not sure. And it really does take time to practice and become good at it, just like any other acquired skill... maybe that's why I see driving as an art. I think race car drivers are damn good at what they do, and I wish I could have one chance to drive a race car on a closed track... that would be incredible. Meanwhile, go-karts will suffice...

And as long as you're driving safely and comfortably, that's fine with me!

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KingOtter67

That still goes back to my qualification of 'depending on your environment', though I think. Sure, if you're driving through a neighborhood with kids playing and someone can run out in front of your car at any moment, don't grab the cellphone and make a call.

I think being a good driver (to try to pull this back to the thread topic, and not derail it further into how evil or not cellphones are...and I take full responsibility for taking it out there) means being able to prioritize, and adjust to conditions. Even if they are conditions that you create, yourself.

Also, a good driver is one who knows his/her limits, and performs within those. Some drivers can juggle while driving, others need both hands and both brains concentrating on it at all times.

My grandmother used to drive 2 miles out of her way so she wouldn't have to make a left hand turn. She was a good driver, because she knew how to avoid conditions in which she was uncomfortable, and prone to making mistakes, IMO.

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BadNick

My opinion goes with the Zen and awareness ideas above as making a good driver.

So I try to fit my behaviour into that definition. I think of myself, and most who get to know my driving habits/style agree, as being very highly aware of everything around me and what they are doing so I can operate within that envelope.

I also think driving talent significantly comes into play when pushing the limits, like on slick surfaces, ice, or on a race track. I do a lot better than average there too.

Btw, IMO talking on a cell phone while driving should be universally outlawed, heavily fined, etc.

Rodney

MSD got part of what I was going to say. A good and skillful driver knows his or her limits, and adjusts driving strategy accordingly. If you are sharp, attentive to road conditions, and know how to make your car do what you want, you can engage in driving strategies that leave less margin for error. If you are a little fuzzy and have a long reaction time, as I do, you leave a large "zone of safety" in front of your car, maintain a more moderate speed, and make a careful study of your mirrors before making a turn or lane change.

That said, a truly skillful driver always leaves a margin for error, even if his skills are great. Most all of us have been on a winding mountain road that is strange to us, driving carefully while the locals blow past us through the turns at great speed. They know every inch of the road and exactly how fast they can go on each turn. The problem is that their judgment leaves little room for the unexpected: an oil spill, road debris, a tire that suddenly fails, black ice. We have roads like that in this area, frequented by experienced drivers, and guess what: tourists and visitors rarely wreck on those roads. Nearly all the accidents happen to "experienced" locals who did not expect the unexpected.

Finally, as others have said, you need to know when the safest thing to do is to shift your strategy from what you're comfortable with to what's going to work: to go fast when the surrounding traffic is fast, to mash the gas suddenly in heavy traffic to avoid an oncoming peril (or to cut speed suddenly to let the peril slide in front of you), to go 35 on the Interstate when there's a terrible thunderstorm and visibility is 25 feet.

All drivers have a preference for how they wish to drive. But the truly skilful driver is one who can consciously override his or her preference when it is not the best strategy. Gilda's wife believes that aggressive driving is _always_ the best strategy, but no strategy is always the best one. She confuses reaction time and some manual skills behind the wheel with being a good driver, as many teenagers do.

william

Basically, if I see ANYONE on a phone, I think they are trash. Time on a phone takes away from time concentrating driving. I live in SoFL, and these acidents (?) happen all the time. So much so that are becoming part of daily life, and no longer as news. If your life is that frigging busy - pull over!

irateplatypus

two balls and a johnson...

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