maleficent

He stated his opinion, as did everyone else in this forum, there was no wild flailing...
What does this absurd statement have to do with anything?
This is a discussion forum. We discuss. Paul broached a topic, we responded based on our own life experiences. We don't know either party, we have not talked to either party - -all we can do is comment on what we would do given the situation.

__________________

Hektore

This is how I previously thought. No man can hit a woman. Ever. well...until I let my friend's girlfriend drive him and us back to his house one time. He blew her off to go fishing with me and his car broke down so she was nice enough to come get us (probably only because she was a friend of mine and I didn't know that he had). Naturally they start fighting about it on the way home and she just snapped, she said she had enough and was going to kill him. She let go of the steering wheel pushed the gas to the floor and just starting hitting him like crazy. He tried to steer and just take it but she was making things too difficult so hit her. And suddenly I had the learned the real moral that should be applied when men hit women, rather when anyone hits anyone: stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves be it man, woman or child.

It's not about gender hitting gender, its about using your physical advantage to harm another person. Really, its about an unfair fight. Most men are bigger and stronger than most women and that is just the way things are. So in almost all cases men shouldn't be hitting women. If a man is big enough to stop a woman from causing him physical harm but doesn't because he thinks it would be wrong, then yeah, it's his problem and I'm not going to do a thing about it. But if he can't get her to stop any other way and hits her, I can live with that.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

lurkette

...rambling snipped...
You have a point that nobody has asked the woman, but to assume that just because she is silent about it means that she is consenting to being hit is really beyond the pale. She should absolutely be responsible for her own actions, but to turn a blind eye to the situation really isn't being a good friend. All the guy was asking was what, if anything, he should do about the situation. One option would be to shrug and do nothing. Another would be to bring down the hammer on the guy for hitting a woman. I think a reasonable response would be somewhere in the middle: to make sure the guy understands that *abuse* in a relationship is not okay. (Hope that choice of words doesn't set you off ) From either party. Hang out with a battered woman or two and see if you don't change your opinions about the situation. You're really struggling hard to be offended by what are some pretty reasonable assumptions.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Phage

You do have a good point that just because she has not complained does not indicate that she is consenting. You also have finally come up with a reasonable response for paulskinback, to make sure his friend is not going to be abusive. As I stated earlier I think he should also talk to the girlfriend and make sure that she knows she does have options.

What raised my ire was the flood of suggestions for inappropriate responses ranging from beating the guy up, recommending counseling, declaring the relationship irreparable, and otherwise suggesting that others opinions trumped the peaceful resolution those actually involved had come to.

Seaver

I will beat the shit out of any man I EVER see hitting a girl. I will allow a slap to slide if she deserves it. But there is a BIG difference between a hit and a slap.

Besides, who here have ever had a girlfriend who seriously hurt when they hit. Personally pinches/scratches have hurt 10x worse than any hit a girl's done to me.

Sweetpea

hitting women is wrong without consent (outside of BDSM fun) and when angry and drunk. And i would no longer consider that person my friend, if it was a man or a woman who did the hitting.

Phage:
I am a little shocked at your continued flaring.
Making your points without flaring and in a calm and polite fashion is how Tfp works and what others are adhering to in this thread. calm down

Sweetpea

__________________
Having a Pet Will Change Your Life!
Looking for a great pet?! Click Here!
"I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

Phage

My first post was calm and laid out my thoughts, showing what I think to be the flaws in various other opinions. I increased the force of my posts hoping that people might actually read them... Unfortunately the second post:
...and the 45th post:
...seem to indicate that posting probably reaches only a very small number of those who add to the thread.

I do find it interesting that me calling people's positions stupid gets more reaction than others advocating premeditated assault. How does that work?

canuckguy

deserves it???? what would make her or anyone deserve to get slapped or hit? are we talking the woman talks sassy to her man or stabs him with a rusty spoon? in jest i speak. Btw a slap is fine over a hit you say? I've seen people slapped so hard they almost do a back flip. if you think there is a difference then you never had been slapped by my father. both the same in my eyes. both are wrong.


edit- the father thing was a joke, he was never around long enough to hit me.

Sweetpea

(I am remiss to even answer you...)
I was not disagreeing with you, premeditated assault is never acceptable in my opinion.

i would like to say:
We don't call other individual's positions "stupid" here on TFP, it goes against the principles that open discussion is based on.
We respect each other on TFP and agree to disagree when we do.
You're not going to change anyone's mind on an online discussion board.
thanks,
Sweetpea

__________________
Having a Pet Will Change Your Life!
Looking for a great pet?! Click Here!
"I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

tecoyah

OK....Unless you want your LAST post to be the one quoted here......read the rules VERY carefully....and act like the adult you are.

You insulted a member here.....it cannot happen again.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Seaver

The difference between a slap and a hit is in the force, not the fact it's open palm or not (IMO anyways). And the only "deserve it" is when she's threatening serious force (i.e. flipping out and holding a knife). Other than that it's easy enough to grab their wrists and bam... they cant hit you (yes this is assuming he's stronger than her... but lets face it most women arent kickboxers).

Oh no, I read your post. You, however didnt take the time to read mine. It involves witnessing it. Something like that, you could tell if she enjoyed it or if it was abuse. If it was seeing only the effects (i.e. blackeye) it is your duty as a friend to get involved through talking to both sides and getting cops involved if required.

Just because people dont agree with your post doesn't mean they didnt read it or they are too stupid to..

skier

I think this machismo viewpoint has some serious flaws in it. One quarter of all spousal homocides have male victims. (Stats Can., 2004) I think this speaks a lot for how a macho attitude leads to underreporting of spouse abuse against men. Women are more likely to engage in verbal abuse rather than physical abuse, and a guy will be expected to "take it like a man" when he gets berated. I think it's great to have guys not hitting women. I think it's even better if women don't hit men.

Our society's traditional beliefs put women on a pedestal, objects to be admired, protected, but seen as easily breakable and of lesser importance. It's this attitude that allows for abuse behind closed doors and demeans equality of the sexes.

Edit: Hektore, you expressed a complex truth very elegantly. Nicely done.

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Phage

That is a cheap shot, it does not become you.
I have not called anyone or their opinions stupid, unless you count pointing out careless logic. I have always explained my position in a logical manner, and have not attacked the character of anyone.

It appears not, but surely that is the aim of a discussion board. Otherwise there would be no need to have anything but a poll function. In any case, I am not going to change your mind so I am done responding to you.

My reference to calling people stupid was to what I consider a mistaken interpretation by sweetpea, attempting to mark the contrast between her reaction to what she thought was character assassination and others advocating criminal acts. Every opinion I have opposed I have given a reasoned rebuttal. "Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes." is in the definition of stupid; perhaps it is a more polite way of referring to what I consider a poorly considered position.

la petite moi

I think if drink was involved, you should dismiss it as a one time thing. HOWEVER, keep an eye on your friend and his girlfriend. If you notice things happening that are out of control, report it.

SLITWILLIE

My wife and I have been divorced for about two years now. I am 30 now and in all my years of dating I always wondered how anyone could ever hit a women? Well once you have been abused (Mentally and Physically) time and time again there is just so much a man can take. My X used to beat on me all the time and I can still say that I have never hit a women with a closed hand but I sure have shaken the fuck out of her. Not proud of my actions at all. I guess when someone bits the shit out of your arm. Instincts take over or mine did. So really its hard to answer for anyone until you have been put in that situation. I told her if she kept on talking and hitting people like a man someone was going to give her a Man's Ass Kicking. And as of today I got custody of my 19 month old boy when he was 6 months. She has 0 visitations with him from the courts just what I will allow and I was being very fair with her about coming over to the house to see him until about 4 hrs ago when she got pissed and as she was leaving she tried to run thru my garage door About 1500.00 worth of damage lucky my little boy was inside and didn't see any of this. So before you start saying what you would and wouldn't do to a women. You probably have never been put in this bad of a situation.

__________________
Puff Puff Give

aberkok

Just don't let this guy find out about it:

__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Squishor

With all due respect, if my boyfriend got drunk and hit me hard enough to leave a mark, I would NOT dismiss it as a one time thing. I have never been hit by a man and I have no intention of opening the door to it, which is how I would see this.

As for the OP's question - I guess what I'd do is check in with the girlfriend and find out her version of the story, friendship or not. If it sounded like abuse, I'd encourage her to do something about it. And I'd probably end up losing my friend when she told him and he got mad, but oh well. What I would not do is pursue getting involved beyond that point - it's up to her to do something about it and if two are playing the game, no outsider will be able to make them change. I do think it's important to help people being abused by pointing out what's going on though - it seems that a lot of the time they are confused and just want to make excuses for the abuser.

Phage

aberkok: Eh, why not? There is always a time and place...

CandleInTheDark

He's you're friend, you owe him two things: You're loyalty, and keeping him on track.

__________________
Where there is doubt there is freedom.

Fire

Having had a horrible relationship in which my ex wife was very abusive, and liked to grab sharp and or blunt objects to swing at me, I feel that there is deffinately a time when you may, despite your chivalrous inclanations, have to hit a lady- for me it was the last time she came at me with a ball peen hammer- that was after four and a half years, and I still have (and will have for the rest of my life, ) knife scars- I, untill that point, had believed that one never hit a woman, etc, but if you get hurt enough times, take enough knives away from her, and get enough knives, mugs, hammers, etc thrown at you, then it does in fact change your opinion- the situation was particularly bad for me, as i 1- sell weapons for a living, 2- am certified to teach a martial art, 3- am a guy- luckily I avoided any entanglement with the law, but had the cops been called, I am sure that as the guy, I would have been the one to go to jail- and the person that this thread focuses on should be warned of that fact- statisticly, HE will go to jail, unless she outright tells the cops that she is at fault- NOTE- I do not condone unprovoked, non consensual violence in a relationship, violence is always destructive, and does not provide a soloution, only an end, as was the case in my own situation-

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

la petite moi

However, if hypothetically you were beating on your boyfriend while you were both drunk, and he punched you back (perhaps not knowing his own strength and not restraining himself because of drunkenness), could you really blame him for defending himself?

Mojo_PeiPei

I'm in the boat that if my friend hit his girl, I would probably have to check his ass. I'm going to go out on a sexest limb here, women are not as strong as men, therefore they are not as dangerous physically. Short of grave physical danger, there is never any excuse for a friend of mine, or any man, should lay a finger on any female, let alone a girl friend. If she is physically going after you there are ways to deal with such as A) walking away or B) physically restrain her, not the same as hitting a woman.

Doesn't help the fact that the dude was tanked, but as stated here that isn't an excuse. I'd say your friend should ditch this chick, doesn't seem like a healthy relationship if she can rile him to that level of violence.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

guthmund

My opinion damages the community? Seriously? I'm glad we haven't strayed into the world of ridiculous hyperbole....

It's my opinion. I stand by it. In a thread less than 24 hours old you've managed to come back 8 times to give us your opinion. You've verbally berated member after member in post after post, been warned by, at least from what I've observed, the most laid back moderator here and still you continue. If it sounds like a duck and walks like a duck....you can figure out the rest.

This is too absurd. You really had to stretch to get that one.

Homosexuality isn't a choice. Punching someone in the face....is.


It's a discussion board. We discuss things. Paul asked for an opinion, the board gave it.
You obviously don't agree with it, but that hardly matters considering it's an opinion, which doesn't require validation from a second party.

I'll admit there was a bit of presumption on my part. Perception being what it is, I presumed that most folks don't like getting punched in the face. Might even find it "unpleasant." Added to the litany of generic excuses, which I've heard from many an abuser (there was alcohol....she hit me first), I presumed that the boyfriend, who is, presumably, bigger and stronger than her since paul fails to mention otherwise, had a momentary lapse of impulse control and rammed his fist into his girlfriend's face.

Man, do I have egg on my face....

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

Da Munk

Though it would obviously be better to end the situation in the most non-violent way possible, I would have to say that hitting someone, no matter the gender of the parties involved, is giving consent to be hit yourself.

Squishor

I realized this after I wrote that, since the original story was that she was hitting him first.

In that case, he is still not justified but then again neither would I be. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. The injustice of it is mitigated, however. The problem we're talking about, I think, comes when she has a black eye and he doesn't. If I'm beating on my boyfriend he should be capable of getting out of the situation without giving me a black eye, unless it's one of the extreme situations like people have described in this thread.

Years ago, I was very drunk, crazy and belligerent one night and started hitting a guy I was with. He sat there and told me to stop, with increasing firmness, until I got the message and stopped. He did the right thing and I was totally in the wrong. When I realized what had happened later and thought about it, I was humbled and respected him for how he handled it. Any time we give in to our baser instincts like I did that night, we're just making the world an uglier place to live in. He counteracted that by acting according to his higher nature. If I hadn't stopped, he could still have shoved me out the door and stopped the situation without injuring me. Luckily I didn't hurt him.

I don't think being drunk excuses these kinds of acts, either. The guy in the story above had also been drinking that night and he managed alright.

smooth

If all these presumptions were true, I would suspect the woman would have more than "a bit of a black eye."
Even if he slapped her, she would be bruised around her face and eye if he hit her hard enough and in certain places. The point is, none of us have any idea about even the most minor details necessary before forming an opinion.

Your friend answered your question with honesty, and in full confidence that you were interested in his and her well-being, and certainly wouldn't expect you to spew his personal situation on the internet or attack him over his actions. I suspect there's more backstory here than you are relaying.

It's disturbing to me that people are suggesting someone become physically violent with his "close friend."
I can't imagine any adult friends who would agree to beating each other up over some misguided promise to protect women from themselves. That sounds more like some pact teenagers make to prove their manhood to each other by acting hypermasculine, not mature responses to violence.
Some friends people have in here.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

paulskinback

I did talk to her briefly, although I don't know her as well, and she said that he hit her, but seemed like by her response she wasn't too bothered (maybe this has happened in her past relationships?? I dont know)

I am the one who is bothered about the situation because I don't know if I can keep a friend who hits women, booze or not. Here is an update on the story...

He thinks she drinks too much, and can't handle it or her when she's drunk. He sometimes gets out of control when he's drunk (in the past has got into trouble with police etc) but fairly minor situations, and was a teenager etc so I let it pass.
Two and two together, he tried to calm her drunkness and shouting, restrained her, pushed her out of his face. She hit him and he retaliated. My thoughts are, if i were him, she hit me, i walk away and leave her. I couldn't ever hit a girl/woman.... but he did... it angers me that he saw nothing wrong with that, I don't want him to do worse in the future...

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation

lurkette

I hate to think what wrath I'm going to call down on myself for this , but this does not sound like a healthy relationship. I'm with you on the "walk away" part, but it sounds like they're really kind of stuck feeding off each other's actions. I can see why you'd be bothered that he doesn't see anything wrong with it, but I'm just as bothered that she doesn't see anything wrong with it, either. Sounds like they've gotten into a bit of a pattern, and I would hate to see it escalate. These things do happen, and they're unfortunate, and many devoted couples manage to find a way past it. But chances are if neither of them is interested in changing their behavior, it's not going to get better, only worse.

If you're asking whether you should still be his friend, you're the only one who can really answer that. You know what there is between the two of you, and whether this new insight into his character and behavior is worth letting that go. You can either stick to him and try to convince him of what you (and most of us) see as the error of his ways; or you can stick to him and say "live and let live;" or you can walk away and let him and his girlfriend handle their own dysfunction.

Good luck.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Mojo_PeiPei

I wouldn't suggest doing anything about it after the fact, especially since the original poster wasn't there to begin with. However, if I ever first hand saw a friend hit a girl, they would get cracked in the jaw. You know instances were you stand up for people... in this case you would be reinforcing the point that you never ever hit a woman. I suppose a mature response would be talking about it over a cup of joe, digging deep to find his true inner feelings, right?

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Suave

I doubt I could react the way sixate has said, but I want to expand on the first point. The inability to hit a woman under any circumstances is sexism. There are women who are dangerously equal or more powerful to their spouses, who may pose a significant threat to them. Just because on average a man will tend to be stronger than a woman does not warrant this kind of of outdated paternalistic bullshit. The reaction must be specific to the situation.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

skier

Would you keep a friend who hits men? What's different about his girlfriend or even women in general that makes you come to this conclusion?

This situation sounds like both parties of the relationship are in the wrong. They are abusing each other, and while they are both technically "victims", it doesn't sound like she is a candidate for a battered women's shelter anymore than your friend is.

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

KinkyKiwi

*pokes in*
okay, besides the fact that there are some women who are more powerful then men most women are smaller and really cant hit as hard at all. i've been in relationships where i was abused and maybe i'm biased but i firmly believe that no man has the right to hit a woman EVER. if its really self defense then by the time he should have actually struck out he should be black and blue all over. maybe i'm behind the times here..but i still kinda like it when my chair is pulled out and when a guy will defend me and treat me like a girl. men shouldnt hit women, women shouldnt hit men..but if a woman hits a man he should leave..if a man hits a woman he should have some sense and old fashioned respect knocked into him. and irishsean and seaver..i wish there were more guys like you around.

Also..since he probably was bigger..when i get a lil crazy screamy throwy biznatch is pretty capable of restraining me..and hes really not that much bigger then me..maybe 2 inches taller 30 pounds heavier..if a girl hitting a guy why not just do that untill she calms down?

__________________
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

guthmund

That's quite a bit of presumption on your part as well.

I presumed the boyfriend was bigger and physically stronger than the girlfriend. It's really not that big a leap in logic... Being the 'bigger' man and in no physical danger (I would think paulskinback would've mentioned it if the boyfriend were) he could've handled the situation in a myriad of other ways rather than launching his fist at her face. It doesn't matter how hard he hit her, just that he hit her, period.

But all that is irrelevant because...

My opinion is that I couldn't be friends with anyone who routinely smacks someone else around. The boyfriend isn't a habitual offender, but paul seems worried that he might become one. I would suggest that paul has a talk with the fellow to express the concern, give the guy a pat on the back and move on. Everyone loses control every now and then. It's only a problem if it becomes routine.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

Mbwuto

Because nothing's more fun than a crazy woman who knows you won't retaliate. Women aren't anything special. Should I walk away if a five foot four man starts hitting me? Should I wait till I'm black and blue?

I love the people who advocate violence. "Hitting women is wrong. So kick his fucking ass!" I hope I never meet an internet tough guy's keyboard in a dark alley.

Look, I don't hit women. I do hit my guy friends. In play. I don't usually hit women when I'm being playful(I'd rather wrestle). Yes they are smaller, but so are most guys. Self defense is self defense though. Don't hit unless you can be OK with being hit back.

P.S. I open doors for women, and even let them get off the elevator first while I hold the door. I just don't think being born with a vadge means you get special treatment by my knuckles.

__________________
- people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent.

George Orwell

KinkyKiwi

okay lemme explain...if i were to hit my SO i MIGHT leave a dent..
if he were to hit me (and he cant hit hard) i would end up with a broken nose ..maybe a few missing teeth ect...

i dont think its right for anyone to abuse someone smaller..man OR woman...
but i do think that good men just dont hit women and will go to all lenths to avoid it ..for the same reasons you open doors or pull out chairs or walk her to her door at night. do you do that for your 5'3" male friends?

__________________
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

KinkyKiwi

oh and i also...whats wrong with just restraining a woman (or smaller man) untill he/she has calmed down..or just ..i dunno..leaving?

__________________
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

RAGEAngel9

Ok then what's wrong with the smaller person behaving themselves?
Why should the innocent (in this theoretical case) have to be the one to leave?

I'm not advocating hitting at all, just why should the larger person have to leave with their tail between theirs legs.
Also, to a lot of people having to restrain someone like that doesn't look good either.

I've been in situations where a girl was completely out of control, screaming and throwing shit at me. I can't exactly leave since it was either my sister or my ex , both of whom I'm responsible for.

I'm just sick of this free card women believe they deserve.
I was trying to avoid this topic, because I know I'm gonna come off sounding like a jerk, but screw it.

"You wanna do the man dance? First dance is yours. "
-Way of the Gun

/ no really I'm not bitter
// Would never hit some one unless necessary, since it usually won't help
/// Doesn't mean I don't think it would make me feel better

kutulu

Self defence is self defense. The gender of your attacker does not matter.

Suave

Well if they're weaker (and women typically, but not always, are) then I definitely think you should just walk away, or failing that, restrain them (I used to do that to my brother when we fought, by sitting on him and no I'm not fat). However, I want to present you with a hypothetical situation (since you said a man should NEVER hit a woman):

Bertha is a 175 lb, 5'4" wrestler. She is intimately involved with Frederick, a 160 lb, 5'10" accountant. Bertha has a bit of an aggression issue due to the supplements she takes, and when she gets in a fight with Frederick, because he hasn't touched his meatloaf, she backhands him. Frederick, reeling, tries to walk away. She comes in and attacks again. He tries to run. She's faster.

What should Frederick do? He can't outrun her, he can't restrain her, and he's running out of options.

I understand your opinion that women should never be hit by a man. However, this viewpoint is detrimental. Firstly, even with this social taboo, men are stilling hitting women; hence, it does not work. Secondly, it gives women a victim mentality when it comes to physical violence. They also do not expect it, because everyone knows not to hit a woman, right? When you get physical with a man, you know he's likely to hit back if you are also a man. With women, they don't expect you to actually fight back aside from restraining, which means that if they do get hit, they are completely uprepared and can suffer harsher injuries, not to mention have a higher probability of getting into fights that they otherwise would avoid.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Mojo_PeiPei

You leave so you don't escalate a situation that doesn't need to be escalated. It's one thing to take it to a jerk who is getting in your face. It's another thing to start swinging on a loved one who is this case (male v. female) is smaller, not as strong, and not inflicting serious harm. There is no honor is beating the shit out of a woman, even if she deserved. There is honor in punching the jerk who thinks it's straight if he hits his lady. Guess I am just an old school chavunistic pig who things it's wrong to hit woman when there is no reason too.

Also in the case of Bertha it isn't a simple domestic situation, she sounds like she is trying to put the hurt on the guy. He can't out run her, then his only option would be to step up toe to toe.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.