paulskinback

I met up with my friend and his girlfriend last night, and she had a bit of a black eye that i noticed. So I asked him outright if he had hit her and he said yes, lots of drink involved, she was hitting him before that.... I don't know what to think of him as I could never do that to my GF, and my view is that I hate cowardly pricks that do that to women, but he is a close friend and I really don't know how to feel about the situation...

what should I do??

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation

Irishsean

If he's really your friend, you take him out back, beat the living shit out of him, then pick him up, give him a hug, tell him wtf, and then find him some counseling.

__________________
There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

Strange Famous

well, getting involved probably wont get you much appreciation from either side.. personally I would respect someone a lot less if they knocked their girlfriend around. I would advise her to press charges on him, but if she doesnt want to it's her choice...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

well, violence always solves violent situations....

and his friend might be a lot stronger than him and give him a black eye too?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

DJ Happy

Having been in a relationship that involved hitting (her hitting me) I would like to point out that if she did start hitting him first that it is entirely possible that he hit her back to try to get her to stop. When I was in this relationship there was nothing I could do to stop this woman hitting me, so eventually I told her that if she hit me again that I'd hit her back (this was during an argument). She did hit me and I pushed her away from me and she fell over a couch, bruising her face.

Not to say that I condone hitting women, but there are two sides to every story.

Strange Famous

a woman once threatened to hit me, but she didnt do it. Which is lucky, cos she was a big girl, and she might have kicked my ass.

She was involved with this girl who was also involved kind of with my mum (who is gay) - and my mum sent me this text saying this woman was going to beat her up or whatever, and it happened I used to live about 3 minutes walk from the main gay pub in Ipswich... so I walked down there, and was just trying to tell her to calm down, and she basically started going "you stay out of it, or I'll kick the shit out of you" - I responded by kind of laughing and saying "what? dont be ridiculous, how am I going to get beat up by a girl?"

As it turns out, this wasnt a good thing to say, as it made her pretty mad - but she didnt hit me, I just stood my ground and she just yelled and huffed and puffed a lot... if she had of I dont think I would have hit her back or got violent at all (I'd like to think not) - even though she was actually physically biger than me - I just couldnt really imagine hitting a girl... in a worst case I might have grabbed her arm or something if she really swung at me. But I guess she couldnt have been sure I wouldnt have hit her back, and so she didnt hit me...

Anyway, Im just rambling... I guess if a woman was really hitting me it might be dificult not to retaliate in anyway, but I certainly dont think I wouldnt punch a woman or do anything that would leave her with a black eye... but, I cant really imagine a woman ever really going all out to be that violent either - I guess it is sexist and condescending, but I really dont think women tend to be that violent, Ive never known a women who I have felt actually really threatened by.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Rlyss

Obviously what he did was wrong, but she hit him too, right? If you're going to take him out the back and beat the hell out of him do it to her as well. Sure, she probably didn't hurt him nearly as much as he hurt her but if we justify domestic violence by the amount of pain caused (a little is ok, but there's a line you can't cross) then it sets a bad precedent. Tell her not to hit him, tell him not to hit her and recommend they sort it out by themselves or with a counselor.

canuckguy

your friend should have walked out of the situation if she was the first person to take a swing, if your lady friend starts to lay the beats to you I suggest leaving the room and getting the woman some help. I don't think I could stay in a relationship that could produce such arguments that would get her to hit me.


i thought the only women you were allowed to smack was your sister? thats what dad always said. j/k

maleficent

Once you hit puberty, then that rule goes away...

Let's see -- a lot of alcohol was involved and that will sometimes cause people to do things that they normally wouldn't do. Not that that excuses him hitting her.

Women who hit men are just as bad as men who hit women. In some cases they might be smaller and not as strong and their hitting doesn't have quite the same effect, it's still hitting and the intent is there. The woman has some anger management issues, and if I were him, I'd show her the front door.

He was honest about doing it, they didn't try to cover it up, so I"m inclined to beleive this was a one off event... Absers and abusees get pretty good at perfecting the lies about the bruises.

If he's that good a friend, and he sounds like if if you were comfortable asking, and he was ok with telling, maybe suggest an anger management class, or simply walking away if there is a next time, and walking away for good. We tell women that they shouldn't stay with a man who hits them - -same goes for men if their woman hits them.`

__________________

tecoyah

I once had a friend who was somewhat violent....Moderately....but was part of my life since gradeschool. He also hit his girlfriend, at which point (I was actually there) I told him to stop, which he did. I later asked him WTF he was thinking, and he said she just pissed him off. I tried to explain how wrong this was.....not just against Women, and he did not seem to understand.

That was 14 years ago......I have not seen or talked to him since.
I do not care to have such ignorance in my life.....and minimize it when I can.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Cynthetiq

that's my solution for things lots of things that people do that I do no like.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

BigBen

Violence towards another living thing is wrong. I don't lay a beating on a puppy, why would I hit a woman? Or a man?

I would only use reasonable force to defend myself.

The days of "Don't Hit Women" are gone. Equal opportunity is rough that way. I have seen women push the limits because they think that blanket rule still applies. All I have to say is "I will defend myself just as vigorously, regardless of sex."

Having said that, I don't think (as a rule, yes there would be exceptions) it would take as much force to defend myself against a female.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Supple Cow

I would not hit a man expecting him not to retaliate because I'm a woman. Except for ubertuber. When we were dating, I hit him all the time and he took it like a good boyfriend. (Kidding, of course.)

Regardless of what happened with your friend and his girlfriend, you sound like you're at least a little worried, which means that you should probably have a talk with him about it for the sake of your friendship. And then talk to the girlfriend in case she needs an ally. Ultimately, though, it's up to him to know that hitting his SO is wrong and he probably should have walked away if she hit him first.

If your counsel and concern are not received well, then you can use the tecoyah/Cynthetiq solution and keep your distance because you've done pretty much all you can.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

Bill O'Rights

Over the course of 42 years many, many people, have entered and exited my life for this exact reason.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

meembo

Since you say he's a close friend, I think you owe it to him to say to him what you think of what happened. Warn him of the consequences, and then stay out. I don't abandon friends who do something stupid, but I do keep my distance from people who KEEP ON doing something stupid.

__________________
less I say, smarter I am

sixate

My question is: Why is it OK for a woman to hit a man? Because by the responses it seems that, overwhelmingly, most of you feel this way.

This has never even been close to happening to me, but I can honestly say that if a girlfriend of mine would ever start hitting me, and after I hold her to calm down. After I would release her and she hit me again I'll guaranfuckingtee that she would get punched in the face, and the relationship would have been over before I let her go. Wanna act like a man then you should be treated like one. I love how women want to be treated like a man, until it involves something physical.

Supple Cow

I don't disagree that it's not okay for a woman to hit a man because it's not okay for ANYBODY to hit anybody else. I do however take issue with saying that hitting people is "acting like a man." Would you feel differently if a man hit his boyfriend because they were both men? Do you think women who choose to pursue careers or hobbies in male-dominated fields are trying to "act like men" and not just doing what works for them?

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

Strange Famous

I personally dont measure my manhood by my ability to beat people up. and call me sexist if you want, but I would walk away, and take a few blows if I had to, before I punched a women.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

sixate

Nope!

It depends one what the career is. There would be very few examples that would qualify, but one would be a career in a man's sport(for example: NHL or NFL), then yes, I would consider that a woman trying to act like a man and not doing what works for them. A woman playing in a woman's league is perfectly fine. And a woman hitting their boyfriend/husband is absolutely taking advantage of the fact that a guy won't hit back. I say bullshit. Any adult that hits another adult deserves to be hit back, regardless of gender.

Phage

If we are truly trying to have equality between the sexes then you should not try to claim that it is always wrong to hit a woman. As with any other person attacking him, the retaliation may have been justified.

One thing I would check is to make sure that they both are thinking clearly. There are a surprising number of women who are in abusive relationships that they really want to get out of but do not simply because they are scared (as nonsensical as that is). This goes for the guy as well.

If they are both OK with the incident then it is a victimless crime; if they both decided to beat on each other all day what business is it of yours? If you decide to end the relationship it is because you have problems, not him.

I also take issue with the statement that violence is never justified against anything, but that would be another thread.

skier

I think these "playful taps" are interesting. It's actually part of attraction. It's interesting that this low form of violence is actually good. (I say something to tease her, she pretends to be offended, gives me a tap on the shoulder etc.) I'm fine with this.

I do have a problem when I get these for almost no reason at all from a girlfriend. A girl I was dating used it as punishment- a way to show she was frustrated without actually communicating with me by talking.

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

maleficent

I'm making a major assumption here, that he was bigger than she was. That is what makes it wrong, yes, she could be a professional kick boxer, but he's still bigger than she is and that gives him an advantage and using that advantage is wrong.

I'd feel the same way if it were two men, if one man was a lot bigger than the other man, if the bigger guy hit the smaller one... You pick on someone your own size.

Walk away you don't need to prove anything.

__________________

Strange Famous

I think a lot of people feel its politically incorrect, or sexist, or condescending, or just don't want to come out and say it... but the fact is, at least where Im from and how I was brouight up.. men don't hit women. Period. Of course, I might meet a woman who was stronger or tougher than me; I'm not much of a fighter myself... but for me part of being a man is that I wouldnt hit a women. And if I witnessed a man hitting a women, regardless of context, I would consider myself quite likely to expound reasonable force to prevent that.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Irishsean

About a year ago I was arrested for beating a guy unconscious with a 6-D Maglite. The guy was about 30, 6"6' and around 300 lbs, and I just saw him backhand a 16 year old girl across the face. He broke her jaw, cheekbone, and the blow knocked her back about 6 feet into a wall. I reached back into my litle brothers car, grabbed the flashlight, and gave him a couple lovetaps to the side of the head. When the cops got there, I was grabbed, handcuffed and put into a cop car until the ambulance arrived for the little girl who had been carried inside in the meantime. As soon as the cops found out the whole story, the handcuffs were removed and put on him, and every cop there shook my hand. They took down all my information, and I walked away. I did end up getting called into court over the whole thing, but it ended up being no trouble for me.

Was what I did violent? Yeah.

Was it none of my business? Nope, not really.

Would I do it again? In a heartbeat.

Men do not hit women. I don't care about being seen as sexist, its just the way I am. I also open doors and pull out chairs, so eh, whatever, if thats seen as sexist, fine.

I've been in a relationship with a girl that hit me, and I never, ever even thought about hitting her back. Its just not right for me, or for any of the people that I would call friends. If I saw a guy beating on a girl, no matter what the circumstances, I'm gonna get in someones face.

__________________
There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.
Leon Trotsky

lurkette

I don't care what gender you are, people in a loving relationship don't hit each other. She shouldn't have hit him to start with, and he should have had the maturity and restraint to not hit back. I would suggest to them that they seek counseling - this can't go anywhere good, and if this continues and escalates, chances are he's going to be the one doing the more serious hitting and will accordingly pay the heavier price. Not necessarily fair, but if you care about him and his relationship, I'd suggest they get help.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Phage

WRONG! Everyone is so self-righteous with their prejudice. Ever heard of BDSM? I suppose you would want to "fix" the sadomasochists out there, and then maybe move on to the sodomizers and heathen fornicators.

You can treat women with chivalry if you want, but don't you dare try to inflict your moral code on others. They both have recourse to the law if they want to; let them decide.

meembo

I think in general terms, what lurkette said was fair. What I think we are discussing here is being assaulted, and in general terms, very few consent to being struck. If both people consent on either side of the blow, of course that's OK -- a little weird for me, but OK, and certainly within your rights.
Without consent, no one has the right to strike another person besides in self-defense.

I agree that I sometimes think someone OUGHT to be laid out, but I can't assume the right to do it, unless I'm willing to accept all of the consequences that go along with it -- like jail.

I don't agree that if everyone is OK with the situation, then it's a victimless crime. Black eyes and bruises are evidence of a very real crime, whether it's prosecuted or not.

__________________
less I say, smarter I am

jorgelito

Although in your friend's situation, it's a tough call due to lack of info. If he was being attacked by her and he used reasonable force to get her to stop attacking him then it would probably be justified. And they should probably get counseling anyways. A black eye seems a bit extreme to me. I could see bruised wrists from him holding her defensively but a black eye implies he punched her in the face. Did she full on punch him or were they itty-bity "girly taps"? Was he really in danger? In your example, I think alot would depend on the circumstances and stuff.

cj2112

I wasn't there, so i can't speak to that particular situation. However I was present when a couple that were both very good friends of mine got into a fight one evening. He begged her to leave him alone, to let him leave, etc. Each time he attempted to leave she would either block the door, kick and hit him, or jump on his back and pull his hair and other similar behavior....this guy did everything he could to walk away from the situation. She would not let him. He first tried to talk his way out of the house, which resulted in him getting beat. He then tried to use as little physical force as possible to enable hime to leave (physically moving her out of the way, pushing her out of the way etc.) he ended up having to hit her just so he could get out of the house so he didn't have to get the shit beat out of him anymore. Guess who went to jail for beating who? Yep he went for domestic violence, he had to hire a lawyer to defend himself in court, no charges filed against her. I was there when it happened, she was the agressor, he had two choices, let her seriously injure him or defend himself and leave as soon as he could. he chose the latter, and it cost him a fortune (and it cost me a day off work w/o pay in order to testify at his trial as a witness), but he was found not guilty. Sometimes you have to hit a woman. Granted this situation is far form the typical one, but sometimes it genuinely is self defense. Knee jerk reactions are almost never the best way to handle a situation.

Pacifier

Have you read the opening thread? This is not about BDSM, BDSM is consensual.
This thread is about a non-consensual fight. A completly differten subject.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Hain

My friends and I have a pack: if one of us hits a girl for no reason, we beat the hell out of him and do the hug bit. However, she hit him first. So it becomes: call counseling for them, or report a domestic dispute or something of the like about them.

__________________

////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

rainheart

I have to say I completely disagree with this bullshit about violence never being justified, or that it's always wrong to inflict harm on another living being. When did life become so sacred? Please answer me that.

But wouldn't it be an advantage for the woman if she knows that the man won't hit him back? If she uses that advantage, is that not wrong?

maleficent

Violence in this case was not justified, unless she came at him with a knife or a gun, he did not have to hit her back. It is wrong to intentionally inflict harm on another person.

No where did I say her doing the hitting first was in any way correct... She was wrong, him hitting back compounds the wrong.

__________________

Phage

Two things:
1) Look at what I was responding to: Sweeping generalizations about how other people's relationships ought to be.
2) It was nonconsensual? Ehh? I don't see anywhere paulskinback reports even having talked to the girlfriend, and her not having pressed charges seems to indicate that she has consented to it so far. Don't you think the woman should have some say in the matter, or is she irrelevant?

Oh reeeally? So you would say that if someone was bruised in football then it would be a crime? How about if they were sparring in martial arts practice or for fun? How about having rough sex? How about if they both just hit each other because it is none of your darn business?

There are some majorly wrong assumptions being made in this thread, mainly that you have any justification to tell them what they can and cannot do in privacy with their own bodies.

lurkette

Dude, chill! I like being tied up and spanked, so climb down off your soapbox. As others have already pointed out, the key here is consent. And if I "inflicted" my moral code on others, we'd all be living in bisexual polyamorous BDSM communes, so you might want to back off on the caffeine before you read your own particular phobias and prejudices into my words.

Smacking your SO because you're drunk and mad is not an action conducive to healthy relationships. Period. Just because she hasn't gone to the police yet does not prove consent. The boyfriend admitted that they were fighting, he at least was drunk, she was hitting him, so he hit her back. If you can't see the difference between mild domestic violence (in which both parties are COMPLICIT - not CONSENTING - big difference) and a consensual BDSM relationship, then maybe you need to examine your perspective a bit. The boyfriend didn't say "yeah, we're into rough sex and things got a little rough." He admitted they were whacking each other in a fight. I don't know what you classify as a "healthy" relationship, but IMHO this is not it.

You seem to be a bit touchy about people judging relationships - I'm sorry if my earlier words came off as judgmental and sweeping; I didn't realize I'd have to make a distinction between "good" hitting and "bad" hitting - seems pretty evident to me, and to most other reasonable people around here. You might look at how your own experiences might be coloring your reaction.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

meembo

Are you serious? The thread isn't about football, or BDSM, or martial arts. You bring in peripheral hypotheticals mentioned nowhere else in the thread, and ignore what others are writing. I was talking about the black eye mentioned at the head of this thread.

Moreover, martial arts and footbal, like BDSM, are consensual activities, with known risks. Several of us here said that consensual activities were different, and what ever you want to do with your body is fine. We are talking about non-consensual assault. Reeeeally!

__________________
less I say, smarter I am

guthmund

I just think someone is spoiling for a fight...

I don't condone violence, although I understand the need for it...occasionally.

I think if he were routinely beating on her it would be a different story. As it stands and from what I gathered, it was a one time incident. If they're reasonable individuals, this will probably be the only time it ever happens. I'd talk to him, I'd explain what happens if it continues, give the guy a pat on the back and move on.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

Phage

I am sorry, I seem to be at a disadvantage. Can I spontaneously change my position at the drop of a hat as well? At 3:51 you say that no loving relationship involves hitting, and suggest that they seek counseling, and then a mere 2 hours later say that you enjoy being hit and that you would never tell anyone how to run their relationships. Can you explain how these posts do not contradict themselves?

--- oops, you have edited your post while I was writing this, so let me continue.

Everyone is assuming that the woman did not want to be hit; ok, that makes sense even though nobody seems to feel the need to ask her. In that case we have a system of dealing with those situations, namely the law. People can be hurt in many different ways, many of them not criminal, and it is up to those injured to decide if they want to press charges. Making judgements about the nature of the incident without a clue as to the disposition of the injured party is arrogant to the extreme.

There you go again, defining a "healthy" relationship by your own standards. What justification do you have to say if it is "healthy", and even if it is not "healthy" why can they not continue with it if they do not mind?

------------
And I think you are wildly flailing your opinions around to the detriment of others; at least their domestic violence did not damage the community.

If gays were "reasonable individuals" then they would stop being gay; I mean what do they expect to happen, besides having pleasure? If they did not like it, it will probably never happen again. If the woman thinks it necessary she will press charges; she has not yet.


The bottom line is that it is up to the injured parties(the woman in this case) to decide if she liked it or not, and if she did not if it requires punishment. Nobody has asked the woman, so anyone attacking the actions of the boyfriend are poking their nose someplace it does not belong.

ShaniFaye

I know this thread isnt about BDSM....but I'm going to put my 2 cents in since it was brought up.........Being spanked and flogged is NO where near the same as a guy/girl hitting their S/O in anger. While I enjoy the being spanked/flogged if it were done in anger you can best believe that person would NEVER again have the chance to lay a hand on me...period, end of story. The kind of "hitting" that goes on in BDSM is NO where near the kind of hitting this person did.

That said....if a woman is going to be dumb enuff and disrespectful enuff to hit someone....she best need to expect to get smacked back, it nothing else then out of pure reflex.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Psycho Dad

Start by explaining that you do no feel what he did was right and why you feel that way. If he is that close of a friend he should listen and take this as a wake up call and realize that he made a big error in judgement. If his moral standards in this case are different than yours, prepare to say goodbye to a friend.

And I'll add that if they got to this point after drinking, they have other issues. Being drunk is not a good excuse for many things. Alcohol is not a crutch either of them should lean on to explain how this happened.

__________________
Don't always trust the opinions of experts.