Lebell

When do we say enough of the legislated Nanny state?

Do we only care when it is our own that are in danger of losing their livelyhood?

Do you only care when your mom or your dad loses their job for having diabetes or a heart murmur? Or maybe yourself because your allergies are too severe to go to work some days?

I am truly disgusted.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/educ...22/detail.html
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Lawmaker Wants Teachers In Hawaii Weighed For Obesity
Teachers Union President Calls Resolution 'Offensive'

UPDATED: 10:17 am MST March 28, 2005

HONOLULU -- A state lawmaker has suggested Hawaii's public schoolteachers be forced to weigh in as part of the fight against obesity in students, KITV in Honolulu reported.

State Rep. Rida Cabanilla introduced a resolution in the house requesting that the Board of Education establish an obesity database among public schoolteachers.

"You cannot keep a kid to a certain standard that you yourself is not willing to keep," Cabanilla said.

It's been documented that more than 20 percent of Hawaii's children are at risk, or are already overweight, according to the station. There are no statistics on teachers.

The resolution calls for all public schoolteachers to weigh in every six months.

The measure calls for the education and health departments to formulate an obesity standard and appropriate measures for teachers who cannot meet the standard.

"As a matter of fact, we should start at home, but since the legislature has no way to regulate homes, we can at least start in school," Cabanilla said. "And teachers have a lot of impact to these students."

The teachers union said it agrees that teachers are at the front line when it comes to the education and health of children, but it says the resolution is misguided.

"I think at this point and time, the focus really needs to be on putting highly-qualified teachers in the classroom," Hawaii State Teachers Association President Roger Takabayashi said.

The union defended its members as low users of the health fund system.

"I think it's quite offensive. I don't think it will lead us anywhere. It's not going to benefit the children necessarily," Takabayashi said.

A similar resolution is being considered by the state senate.
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ON the other hand, California, that forward thinking state, wants to sterilize fat people so they don't reproduce:


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Curing Obesity through Sterility: California 's Controversial Program Under the Microscope

http://www.pnmj.org/0032205_curing_obesity.asp
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Beginning last November, the city of San Francisco began a program whereupon clinically obese men between the ages of 18 and 55 could undergo a procedure whereupon approximately 1/2 an inch is removed from each vas and the ends are sealed - commonly referred to as a vasectomy - completely free of charge. The overwhelming turnout led the State of California to follow suit, and now California is the first state in the Union to offer state-funded vasectomies to men who have been diagnosed as obese.

Why would a state adopt such a controversial program? The basis is simple: vasectomy is a popular method of birth control (in 1983, figures showed that approximately 10 million men had been sterilized in the U.S. since 1969). By offering such a highly effective form of birth control freely to men who, by clinical diagnosis, have been deemed genetically inferior to the normalized median of homo sapien development, such a gene line would effectively be eliminated.

The program's roots began in countries such as India and China , where the respective governments of those countries are attempting to stem the tide of overpopulation. Sums of money are paid to men who submit to voluntary vasectomy. The program is highly effective, given that the incentives for action are both a limit to overcrowding (societal concern) and monetary gain (personal concern). Given the effectiveness, The San Francisco Medical Society took note and took action.

Nationally recognized geneticist William A. Doty and clinician Joseph Peacock began a program in private practice whereupon overweight men in the Bay Area could receive vasectomies free of charge. Their philosophy: When engaging in clinical decision making, physicians tend to value primarily information about the effect of treatments on physiological functioning and disease progression, rather than information about the impact on the patient's quality of life [9-11]. By focusing on the quality of life of future generations, we greatly improve the psychological impact of genetics on the human condition. The response was positive, and they published the results of the clinical trials in the San Francisco Medical Society's Journal. Soon, other private care physicians spoke in favor of Doty's controversial new theory on the cure for obesity, which led to the program's establishment as a city-funded project and eventually lead to the State of California 's Committee for Exploratory Medicine to set aside funds to trial the project on a State level.

Of course, the major concerns for such a practice reside in the psychological factors as they pertain to the patient. Researchers have examined the possible negative physiological effects of vasectomy, but there is no conclusive evidence that any link exists between the procedure and disease. Study after study reports positive states of minds in observed cases, thus the psychological basis for barring such a practice is rendered ineffective. A major challenge for physicians when dealing with quality-of-life measures in subjects is that many patients with serious and persistent disabilities (such as obesity) report that they experience a good or excellent quality-of-life, when to external observers these individuals seem to have a diminished quality of life. Two articles examining this disability paradox [14] critique this paradox, and it has been established that often times, the physician involved must make a determination on their own as to the best interest of the subject. Thus far, the program has been purely voluntary, which means that people who undergo the procedure are doing so of their own free will and thus emphatically understand that they have a low quality of life. If we are to make this procedure mandatory, we must clearly draw the lines where physician judgment is concerned.

And what of societal concerns? The medical community at large have long established that obesity has surpassed the levels of simple concern and has become an epidemic. Children born of obese parents inherit genes predisposed to physiology which supports obesity - thus, eliminating such a gene line from the overall pool would greatly benefit society in the long run.

When establishing such a program, simple concerns still remain, such as the possibility that those undergoing vasectomy for reasons of obesity and gene-line cleansing might have preserved their fertility by depositing semen in sperm banks. Such semen samples are frozen in liquid nitrogen below -300°F (-185°F) and are considered to be viable for an indefinite period. However, there is considerable debate over the scientific and ethical aspects of sperm freezing, and the practice is still considered experimental. To truly cure the epidemic of obesity through this manner, the community at large would need to properly motivate our representative lobbyists in Washington to make such a practice illegal.

One potential solution to the permanence of sterility would be conjunctive reproductive analysis based on the physical condition of the subject. Efforts to overcome the irreversibility of vasectomy have also led to experimentation with the implantation of faucetlike devices that can be made to open or close the sperm duct in a simple operation. Such devices have functioned successfully in animals but are still considered experimental in humans because of their unproved reversibility, high cost, and the degree of surgical skill needed to implant them. Should sufficient strides be made in this field, it could be monumental in the motivational efforts of the medical community to bring clinically obese people to a sufficient level of fitness by rewarding such people with permission to procreate and switching on the control valves implanted in the subject.

So the question of whether or not sterility is valid and socially responsible solution to the obesity epidemic plaguing this country no longer remains. The physicians' job, as professor M. Sullivan from the University of Washington said, is "to focus on patients' lives rather than patients' bodies" [8]. It is paramount that the overall condition of life for people be improved to the point where poor genes do not hold one back from proper development of fitness and overall well-being. The State of California has established commitment to this way of thinking - and this researcher only hopes that the rest of the nation follows suit.

Joseph Williams

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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snowy

Jesus.

Isn't it about time we shifted responsibility back onto PARENTS? Honestly...we wonder why our children aren't learning as much or as well as they should--it's because of outside distractions such as this. The school should not be made responsible to look after childrens' health, and teachers should not be made to follow silly expectations such as these.

As for the selectively free sterilization...that's a whole other kettle of fish, as they say. If people know the reason for their free vasectomy...more power to them. It's free birth control. But if the State of California is conducting this program without letting participants know their motive, then it's wrong. These obese men have the choice not to participate. It's not being forced upon them. And it's free.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

kutulu

lol, I love it. This is what the people get for coming after smokers. We warned you that once they finished with the smokers the nannies are going after the fat people.

Common retorts from the smoke nazis:

Your habit is offensive
It's unhealthy and drives up our costs
You can get another job

I know I shouldn't be happy about this but I just love being right.

kutulu

So who's up next? The smelly people? How about the drinkers? We must institute a random testing program that will tell us if you had a glass of wine with dinner. Drinkers become alcoholics, which can cause cancer, which in turn need treatment, which leads to lost productivity. Don't forget that it can lead to mood swings and poor behavior.

After that I want to go after the ugly ones, and then those people who wear clothes that are out of style. It really offends me when someone wears KMart pants to work.

Once we are done with cleaning up society I'm hoping it will be just me and a bunch of hot women with big boobies.

raveneye

The Hawaii bill won't go anywhere; it's flagrantly unconstitutional.

Sounds like a political maneuver to me. I don't know much about Hawaiian politics, maybe Cabanilla is just trying to pad her resume.

On the sterilization program: the idea that free sterilization of obese men will reduce the prevalence of obesity in the next generation is ridiculous. (1) most takers have already had all the kids they want; and (2) in any case the heritability of obesity is too small in the population at large for any effect to be seen.

Bill O'Rights

Don't be so sure. I see this as a warning shot across the bow. The waters are being tested here. Read kutulu's first post to this thread.
Say what you willl...he's not far off the mark here. I made similar comments a few years back. Only I thought that coffee drinkers were the next target. Same scenario.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

maleficent

Since you are already sweeping me out with the ugly unstylish people, I don't have to be nice...

It's known that big boobies cause back problems... so nope - no big boobies... Looks like it's just you... Have fun.

__________________

liquidlight

Heh I'm thinking about going to CA and having a doctor call me obese just so I can get a free vasectomy! I've got my kids already and I'm not really eager to pay to have it done.

As for the teachers, half my teachers were fat, that didn't deter from their job in the slightest, my mentor was quite overweight AND he coached the basketball team. Examples are important sure, but an argument like that is ridiculous.

__________________
Halfway to hell and picking up speed.

Supple Cow

It's ridiculous to enforce this kind of standard for teachers because that has no connection to their ability to teach. Furthermore, the arguments about such regulations for the sake of not "keep[ing] a kid to a certain standard that you yourself is not willing to keep" probably won't get very far since it is more difficult for adults to lose weight than for children.

As for the voluntary vasectomies... they are voluntary. Can't complain there.

Incidentally, I don't see how this is in any way comparable to regulations on smoking.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

World's King

All I have to say is this... Samoans are not know for being "small."



Good luck, fuckers.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

tecoyah

Symptom of the disease infecting our society

refering to the proposed legislation

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

kutulu

Aside from any constitutional issues that may come up, I doubt this could really go anywhere. There are just too many obese people in America to allow this to happen.

Cynthetiq

so long as I can still eat Moco Loco and huli huli chicken...

just another day in the legal system of humanity.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

filtherton

You're not right, smoking and obesity are two different issues.

Cynthetiq

but i thought that same thing about smokers (total amount of voters) and corporations (big tobacco with deepest pockets)...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Seer666

You know, the education in hawaii is such shit anyway, I think they would find a better way to waste tax dollars then this. One more reason for me to hate the human race. What the hell is wrong with poeple?

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

muttonglutton

Wow. Both of these things upset me.

Every time I turn around, there's 'legislation' coming down the pipe that puts the world one step closer to all those creepy post-apocalyptic overcrowded urban humanities with rampant crime, dirty streets, and stifling laws.

Yes, I believe there should be some government incentive to curb obesity, but it should some in the form of goodwill, and help. Not in the form of layoffs and sterilization.

Though it does play right into the plan of Kutulu and I, just us and the large-breasted women. Err, cheers to that.

__________________
Cellar Door.

OFKU0

I don't think the weight thing should be legislated into law, but to have teachers who may be overweight and want to challenge other heavy teachers and kids into exercising towards a healthier lifestyle is a great idea.

Maybe that can be a pilot project for other states to follow. Afterall the best time to educate kids about health or anything for that matter is when they are young. And what better way to learn about setting personal goals than with something that is important for ones entire life, that being ones health.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

flstf

I'm with you on this.

It is disheartening that a polititian can advocate these kinds of things and still get elected. I am even more disgusted because of what it says about us voters.

jorgelito

I could see it make sense from a health insurance perspective: if you're (the state) paying for an employee's health insurance then it's in your interest that they stay healthy.

thalakos315

firing teaches because their overweight? are they insane?

not only is this wrong, its just plain dumb.
have any of you been in a highschool lately? those kids will rip apart anybody who is even the slightest bit different. if they have the brass to stick around in an enviroment like that, then they deserve to be a role model for the next generation, obesity or no.

besides.. if this passes.. what do they expect these teachers to do? go back to school themselves, and re-train for another career? if so then they better be fronting the bill.

ziadel

I think I'll go shine my tall black boots and practice goosestepping..

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

kutulu

I don't mean to point you out but this is exactly what I mean by comparing this to smokers. That is the heart of the arguement that the employers have used to justify firing smokers.

It's total bullshit. We need to allow people to live their own lives. If that means smoking 2 packs a day and weighing 400 lbs that is a person's choice. All the employer should be looking at is how the person performs his job duties.

0energy0

How did he even come up with this idea?
Did he just decide one day... "maybe we should eliminate obesity for teachers"?
Seriously, where do these people come up with these ideas...like the pet rock.

__________________
Is the juice worth the squeeze?

Cynthetiq

I beg to differ.

As a small business owner it's expensive to rehire and retrain someone. It can sometimes even bring a profitable business to closing.

It's a business owners prerogative to hire the best candidates, when the paper qualifications are the same, then the rest comes to play such as likeability, health, hobbies, interests...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

jaco

This just reminds me of a few false Utopian futures that have been written about wherein the substances like salt, cigarettes, alcohol, drugs,etc were all outlawed. its a dim future if we dont have ways to clear out the gene pool of those easily led into temptation, this is my personal view of current evolution. i say let everyone do as they please, the survivors will prove who was the wiser.

__________________
"How soft your fields so green, Can whisper tales of gore"
"Thou art god"

Poloboy

A lot of the people in this thread are getting hung up on the societal issue of simple discrimination against people with a certain characteristic deemed a "disability" (e.g. smoking, obesity). This doesn't seem so novel to me. Discrimination's been around in north america for a while. What frightens me more than anything else in both these articles was the reference to the San Francisco vasectomy prorgram as
You folks are all worried about the government trying to play nanny? I'm worried about the insinuation that the government is trying to play God with genetics....

jorgelito

Kutulu, no problem, I don't mind. I wanted to put that out there as another angle.

I don't know about fired, but I think the employer would have every right to refuse to carry the employee on insurance. Same with the smoker thing. Everyone should be free to smoke all they want, but an employer shouldn't have to cover their health care. I guess I see these issues like credit. Reward and incentive for those that have good credit. SImilarly, if you are healthy, cheap or free coverage. If you smoke or are obese (for example), then pay premium prices.

kutulu

Ok, how about I start a business in a white upper class area. I decide I don't want to hire black people because they make suburbanite white people nervous.

Oh wait, I have lawsuits up the ass. All I'm trying to do is cater to my clients' needs.

jorgelito:

No offense taken, really. The problem is that the law in many places states that everyone has to be eligible to the insurance and pay the same rate.

Cynthetiq

You have every right to do so. You may have lawsuits as a possibility but you have every right to do so and the right to defend it in a court of law.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

streak_56

One of my favorite High School teachers was an obese man. And I didn't think any less of him. The weight of a teacher does NOT affect how he/she teaches. This is absolute crap, nothing more than trying to put someone out of place. Which would you rather have, a large teacher who goes through the material correctly and does all he/she is supposed to do, and has fun with the kids. Or a skinny teacher that goes through most of the material, only doing whats important and doesn't have fun in his/her class? And personally, I feel more comfortable around "larger" teachers, they're just more fun, and have a more relaxed atmosphere

flstf

I don't disagree with you that they should have the right to refuse insurance to people who engage in risky lifestyle choices but I don't think they should.
I am sure that the bean counters can show many lifestyle choices cost more and it is just a matter of time until they get around to all of us.

kutulu

Just so everyone is clear on this, the story about the vasectomies is an April Fool's prank by the guys at zug.com:

http://www.pnmj.org/last.asp

HAL3000

funny


The whole thing is ridiculous. More legislating of morality and controlling personal freedoms if you ask me.

Strange Famous

The great irony I find in this thread is the same people who supported the company who threatened to sack it's employee's if they smoked, and then began to deliberately discriminate against overweight staff are now against this.

When it is a private enterprise dictating the size its employee's are allowed to be, it is applauded by some people - "it's his company, he can do what he wants"

When it is a state dept, now it's terrible, now it is the nanny state, now it is an inexcusable attack on individual freedoms.

A policy that is unfair is unfair

A principle that an employler should not be allowed to discriminate against its employee's based on their physical appearance is a principle - it doesnt matter who the employer is.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

And I should add, if it is not a "Godwin"... the attributed words of the German preacher Martin Neimoller - although he used in an even more serious situation, should be marked and understood by the entire working class.

The capitalist class attack one group, and you do nothing, because you are not effected
And then the next, and the next... and when it is your turn... there will be no one to protect you either.

Only through unity of class can these attacks be resisted. If this company attacks smokers, and we say "oh well, I dont smoke...." and then they attack the overweight and we say "oh well, I am not overweight..." - the goal of course is that the entire employee base is subjugated and immiserated, that there conditions are crushed and made poor in the name of expansion of profit, accumulation of capital... in America the state will not protect the working class - the American state is currently viciously anti-working class and has iniiated several attacks against the working class... protection can only some from the working class itself. The individual worker is very weak, a slave, a chattel, a piece of property that the capitalist can abuse at will. The working class as a whole is far more mighty that the state and capitalist superstructure in total.

if a company attacks its staff in the way that is described, all counter actions by the workers are to be approved, certainly the use of strike, confiscation of company property and equity as a minimum. All workers should refuse to deal with this company in any way.

When the state makes such an attack on the workers as stated in this thread, all teachers in that area should immediately withdraw from work, all parents should pull the children from the school, the state officials responsible should be publically jeered, and coerced... only through strong and united action can the required aims be achieved. ANy teacher continuingh to work and any parent supporting this move must be classified as an enemy of their class.

The question is who is to be master - either the capitalsit will be master, and the conditions of workers in all organisations will be worsened, made more miserable, the capitalist will attack every area of the life - the employee is banned from smoking, the employee is banned form certain sports in their private time because they are dangerous, the capitalist forces the employee to LOOK a certain way (ie not be overweight, or not have long hair, or not grow a beard, or not be this colour, or speak with this accent...)

Either this, or the working class is to be master, that workers will control their own conditions of work. That workers will control their own levels of pay to a degree, that workers will control the fuction of work to a degree. In a capitalist society this is a constant battle of competing interests.

If you are outraged by an employer threatening to sack overweight people, I support your outrage and encourage it. But I ask you not to consider only that we are upset by this instance, not only to consider that we reverse this instance of unfair treatment because it effects or touches US personally... I would ask all people to consider the CONDITIONS which make this possible, which allow the capitalist state of Hawaii to act this way - and we consider the appropriate method to reverse these conditions entirely.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

guthmund

I would think on the list of things to 'discourage' among teachers, obesity would be pretty low on the list.

Find a way to get rid of the lousy teachers. Find a way to get rid of the mindless automatons that seem to riddle classrooms today. Find a way to single out the teachers who are looking for a date among their students.

The teaching pool, as it stands, is pretty thin as it is and to impose an arbitrary rule such as weight is only going to limit the numbers of good teachers further, which, in the end, only does a disservice to the kids.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.