clavus

White pride

Read those two words with no context. What do you think? I bet you think “hate” or at least “racism.” I do, and I’m a white guy. White is equated with hate. The color of my skin is the color of oppression and ignorance. If I were ever to suggest “caucasianism” be celebrated, I would be labeled a bigot. But if I wanted to honor or celebrate any other conceivable nationality, ethnicity or skin color I would be alright.

To me this is racism.

Yet to even suggest existence of racism against the whites, I risk being called ignorant and racist.

If I set up a scholarship fund for Latino students, I would be celebrated. If I set up a scholarship fund for white students, I would be condemned.

Why is this? Because we have the KKK, World Church of the Creator, and other lunies among us? Hate-filled racist groups exist in all cultures. We don’t equate black pride with the murderous Hutus of central Africa. We don’t equate Asian pride with the Khmer Rouge.

Unless we address this issue, groups like the KKK, the Nazis and others will continue to move from the fringe to the mainstream. Because, despite everything they get totally wrong, they are right about one thing – white people are supposed to feel ashamed of their skin. And those guys are the only ones who aren’t afraid to point it out.

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zey420

Why give anyone the satisfaction of being angry about it. Instead of letting yourself be ashamed feel proud. I don't need a friggen parade or a month or a union to be proud of my heritage, I am proud everyday. My grandparents came over here on a boat from Norway and they struggled to make sure their kids would get an education and in turn their kids would as well. I honor them by rising above the petty PC bull that I see everyday and just live my life. I don't care what others think of me and woe be the person who prejudges me based on my skin color. If they do that's their loss.

frogza

I agree. It's unfortunate but true. Years ago while I was searching for scholarships for college I realized that if I was a black woman who was a member of the Baptist Church it would be a lot easier to get some help, but since I am not my options were more limited.

I know that many white people caused a ton of trouble over the years for many, if not all, other ethnic groups. I also know that their oppression lasted for a very long time. For those who have studied history, you'll note that almost every ethnic group, have practiced racism, slavery and even attempted genocide. It was only in recent years that the weapons used to promote these goals became powerful enough for a group to actually succeed. It just happens that the leaders of white cultures had said weapons and not some other group. Now, since the whites were the most recent offenders, the whites are generally considered the lowest of the races, as far as racial morals are concerned.

MooseMan3000

I've said this way too many times to even mention. Every time I get shouted down. Now, I'm a liberal bastard at heart. But the simple fact is that helping minorities can go too far, and in many cases it has. Simply because I'm a white male, I've been discriminated against plenty of times by black people, Asians, and women. How is that fair?

I am extremely against groups like the KKK, or any group that's intolerant of others because of titles. But when I get called "whitey," and it's not by one of my friends who's joking about it, I can see the appeal of having a group of angry people to make me feel better about it. You're totally right - if nothing is done about this so called "reverse racism" (which is unnecessary. It's just plain racism, it's not a special kind.), "regular" racism - that is, directed against non-whites - will run rampant. A-fucking-duh, people.

I apologize that this is incoherent. It's just that I've tried to explain my viewpoint so many times, and been condemned for speaking it by people who wouldn't hear truth, that it just annoys me to even think about it now.

Oh, and...

Did you mean aren't supposed to feel ashamed of their skin? Or am I missing something.

Lebell

It stems from the notion that bigotry is somehow only a "white" trait instead of part of the human condition.

You are at fault if you buy into it and accept the guilt they try to force on you.

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Carno

Yeah, but I don't think any of them are buying into it; everyone else is. It's one thing to know the truth, but if everyone else thinks it's a lie, what good does that do you?

EDIT: I don't feel like being bitched at.

CandleInTheDark

How can you be proud of something you have no control over?

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Coppertop

A-fucking-men. This applies to country of origin as well.

Rodney

"Pride" in race is not so much about being proud how great you are; it's about not being ashamed. Not being ashamed that your skin is a different color or hair is different or accents are different than those of the people on TV who are held up as the acme of success and desirability.

In that sense, you can have white pride; you can simply be not ashamed, feel you have nothing to live up to. Same with black pride, Asian pride, Latino pride, or whatever. It's not about being better, it's about being equal, so that you don't have to look different or sound different to measure up. That's my take, anyway, and the take of most people of color I know who are serious people. There are idiots in any cause or movement, of course.

Although personally, rather than just having white pride I factor in my ethnic group -- Portuguese-American pride, just as others are proud of an Italian heritage, a Dutch heritage, a German heritage, and so on.

jorgelito

Um, I disagree. I think some elements may be true but not on the whole.

For example: In my school, there were scholarships for Descendants of Confederate soldiers and Union soldiers (I thought that was neat), Daughters of the American Revolution (female descendant of the early settlers). Part of the reason for these endowments or whatever is because many of those minority groups are underfunded etc. I don't see a problem with that. It doesn't takle away from anyone. There are many Latinos who are white by the way. Latino is not a race, not even an ethnicity. Most of these are privately funded anyways so what's the big deal?

There are lot's of white pride groups. I think maybe the problem is how you defined it. For example, St Patrick's Day parades celebrate "white pride", and Oktoberfest etc. There is the Sons of Italy, Erin Go Braugh, Croatian student Union, Latvians for Christ, Campus Crusaders etc...all "white pride". I believe the problem is with the term "white pride".

Maybe because it has negative associations (I'm not saying rightly or wrongly) or something so people would be wary of "white pride" groups. But as far as I know, no one's cried foul at the Francophile Club or screamed rascist at the Anglo Student Association.

No, I think it's not as bad as you think it is (IMO). Take another look. I say go celebrate your white pride. Nothing wrong with that. (Unless you're burning crosses on someone's lawn).

I agree, for minorities or whomever to make derogatory remarks (like in the above post) is wrong, just plain wrong. But let's not paint everyone with the same brush either.

Gilda

White groups that promote pride in their particular ethnicity are all around us, they just don't use that particular phrasing because it's been coopted by the bigots. Chicago has a city wide yearly celebration of Irish people on St. Patrick's Day. The town where I grew up had a Scottish league. There's a Basque club not far from where I sit typing this. I don't hear a chorus of voices objecting to those groups celebrating their heritage.

"White Pride", on the other hand, seems more a celebration of skin tone than any ethnic heritage. There is no "white race," there is merely a group of ethnicities that share some superficial physical characteristics and a common continent of origin.

Racism in any form, from any group is bad. Celebrating one's culture is a good thing. There is no "white culture" so there isn't anything there to celebrate except for one's skin tone, and even that is highly variable.

Not that it matters, but I'm a white woman of English / Scottish descent.

Carno

To be honest, I don't really give a shit about my being white.

I don't really care about anyone being proud of their race, but it is kinda annoying to see double standards happen. If someone of any race tells me that their race is better than any other race, I'll just think them an idiot and continue along me way.

My roommate constantly makes racist jokes that are semi-serious and not funny, and I think he's a total fucking tool for it. I also see black comedians go up on stage and say "Wow, there sure are a lot of white people here" like it's supposed to be funny or something. Even more confusing is the fact that people laugh at that. So what if there are a lot of white people at a comedy club? I don't understand the joke...

Yeah, but being Irish or Scottish doesn't have anything to do with race. Those are nationalities.

Caucasians aren't a race?

Using your logic, there isn't any "black race" either. Merely a group of people from Africa or Australia who share a common skin tone. Being Asian isn't a race then either.. It just means that you happen to have skin tone similarities to other people from that region of the world.

I'd say being from Europe is an ethnic heritage. Or in my case, being of Russian descent.

Suave

We have this issue because white people are the predominant skin colour in North America, as well as the socially dominant one. It can therefore be inferred that we do not require "power", "pride" or any sorts of funds specifically for those of our skin colour, as it is already king of the hill, so to speak (a fitting term considering the show). If we did not have societies created on racist presumptions, with racism embedded within them, then there would be no need for racial distinctions along any lines. As it is however, people have differing opporunities based either directly or indirectly on their skin colour, and therefore "visible minorities" may require assistance in many ways, financial, moral, etc.

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flstf

I don't disagree with your analysis, however as clavus pointed out, eventually some/many white people may take offense to being continuously criticized for being racist. Especially those who do not think they are racist and are being discriminated against just because they are caucasian. These people may start to migrate to some of the radical fringe "white pride" groups giving them more mainstream credibility.

From my own experience and travels it seems like these groups are growing in numbers.

filtherton

There is a difference between not being ashamed of your race and being a white supremacist. The first requires only perspective, the second requires a lack of critical thinking skills.

Anyone who is ashamed of their race is a fool. Besides, no one can make you feel ashamed, it is something that you must choose to do on your own.

TexanAvenger

The only race I'm proud of myself for being is Texan...

I don't think about it, really. I don't care about the fact that I'm white, or if anybody else is different. What's it matter? If you feel bad because of your skin you're letting something get to you that's worthless, and if others make you feel bad it's your fault for letting it get to you. It's not as ridiculous as hate groups, mind you... but it's getting there.

I'm white, you're black, you're asian, you're latino, etc. As long as we can still breed together we're the same species and that's all that matters.

jorgelito

Latino is NOT a race. Please stop including it. Neither is Asian. Caucasian describes the region around the Caucasus Mountains in Eastern Europe/Central Asia.

Race is a farce: it is a socially constructed notion based on phenotypes.

Hence the problem with "white", "black". Asian doesn't make sense either as it describes a continent (of or being from). So depending on whose standards and which map, Israelis, Iranians are Asians too. I think "black" is completetly silly. Does "black power" include Sri Lankans? Shit, I am blacker than Condi Rice and Cloin Powell put together so does that make me black?

Heavy D is paler than some Irish I know, is he white?

Is Sammy Sosa black or Latino?

Russians are Asian too (depending on whom you ask, they mostly identified with Europeans to "upgrade".

The traditional race chart: negroid, caucasoid, mongoloid, and australoid is no longer the norm.

The next myth to dismiss: ethnicity...

bad jane

i was actually told that if i were black or male, i'd have had no trouble getting a full ride. what do you say to that? umm, well, thanks but it's a bit late for a sex change and not much i can do about my skin color...

jorgelito

Well, it depends on where those scholarships are coming from. Private donors can enact any kind of criteria they want to. I don't apply for United Negro College Fund (although who knows, maybe...) or say Americans With Disabilities or Descendants of Holocaust Survivors etc..

I think it really depends on who is sponsoring the scholarships and stuff.

Many schools like to dispense scholarships to certain minority groups because they want to have more diversity on their campuses to attract more students etc... So issuing incentives is a good way to attract minorites to their school. You know, in some countries, they give scholarships to minorities too, *gasp* white folk so that they can have a diverse student body. I think a university in Taiwan and China too did this. Ha, ha, maybe there are a bunch of Chinese sourpusses going, "G*D*mn white kids, taking our scholarships!" or "Man, when I complain about those white foreigners on full rides at Ching Chong University, I get accused of being a racist!"

Kinda funny actually, maybe we're not so different after all...

It's their choice, no big deal.

Lockjaw

I'm a black male and I sure as hell didn't get a full ride. Somebody is tossing out some bullshit to you. Listen folks let me tell you something about programs to help black students. Those kids in those programs fight just as hard as you do to get funding to go to college. True enough a few here and there get some nice fat scholarships but if you are a middle class black person like myself you will have just as much trouble paying for your schooling as a white,Asian, whatever...
Everybody in my family that went to college have hefty student loans to show for it. At best we got some books and stuff paid for and that's about it.

EDIT:To stay on topic....
I have no problems with white pride so long as you aren't taking out extra shares in companies that sell bleach. Most of the "white" people I know and am friends with have no problems speaking their mind on race,they have no problem celebrating their heritage. Most of them however celebrate their heritage from where their family hails from traditionally. The Italians I know are very big on this actually. Maybe it's just the WASPs that need some extra loving.

Rdr4evr

In the end, we are all humans despite our race, creed and color. There will always be those who are misguided hate-filled miserable individuals, and they must be ignored. I don't associate with anyone based on the color of their skin, but rather if they are good human beings. We are all of the same species and must learn to love one another, rather than base our opinions on something as trivial as ethnicity.

Willravel

I'm not particularly proud of my race or any other. Most people are ignorant and lazy by nature. My race may have produced some people who have done good, but what makes people think there is some association between their successes and their race? How can anyone be proud of an entire race of people? Whenever I see people saying "black pride" and "white pride" and what have you, I think to myself, I wonder if this person knows what it means to be even be human, let alone a member of a certian race. Race should not go past migment. I get the impression that people believe that certian races are good at certian things from birth. Asians (those of oriental decent, or whatever the PC name for it is) are not all good at math. White people are not all preppy dorks that can't dance. Black people can't aren't all great athletes. Give it a rest. The difference between two groups behaviors is based on genetics and environment. There has never been any proof of a certian ethnic group having abilities in any certian area because of genetics.

Sometimes I am ashamed to be an American. Sometimes I'm ashamed of being Christian. Sometimes I'm ashamed of being a human. I'm never ashamed to be white. Likewise, I'm never proud to be white.

Gilda

Exactly. They are, in addition to being nationalities, ethnicities, or sub-cultures.


I never said anything about caucasians. Caucasians are one specific sub group of whites. My post referred specifically to "white people". Whites vary so greatly in skin tone, facial features, hair, height, eye color, and other physical features that to designate us as all being the same based on some superficial characteristic that varies so greatly is specious at best.

Exactly. There's only one race of homo sapiens, and that's human. African Americans are an ethnicity or a group of related ethnicities. Because they are a minority with a common history and have consistently in our history been the subject of systematic discrimination, it makes sense for them to work to gain equality with the white majority, and celebrating the contributions of others of their ethnic group as a way of promoting the idea that they were responsible for contributing to our nation's history and development makes perfect sense to me.

European, I'd disagree. Europeans form a wide variety of ethnicities. Russian, certainly, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating your Russian heritage. The different cultures that formed this country are all part of what makes it a wonderful place.

Strange Famous

western societies ARE racist agaisnt non-white's... this is simply fact, and all white people are a part of the issue, those who are not racist themselves benefit from racism nevertheless.

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Strange Famous

all people are capable of prejudice.

But racism is the exercise of power upon the basis of ethnicity.

Certainly in America, only the white man can be a racist, because only they have the power to be. Institutional and societal racism against black, hispanic and Native American people all favour and give power to the European Americans.

very many white people are not prejudiced, but yet are still a part of the societal racism.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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flat5

Most whites in the USA have no idea how much better they have it.
Telling 'em does no good. No idea!

In schools they have a 400 year headstart.
Helping other families to catch up seems fair to me.

Jesus Pimp

Hypothetical question. Say if the white man wasn't racist in the first place, would we have these social problems? Is racism from minority groups towards white people a reaction to the racism of the white man?

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Carno

I see what you mean, but in the US if you are white, you are Caucasian. I guess Caucasian has come to be a blanket term for all people with white skin tone.

Hmmm, indeed. Interesting viewpoint, and I understand completely, but if we all only viewed each other as humans, there would be no need for anyone, minority or not, to celebrate their skin tone.

Yeah, being European is not really a heritage, but being English or French or what have you, is what I meant.

Squishor

As I see it, there is racism throughout the various ethnic groups. I believe it is a strong human tendency, and it can be found throughout history. For example, I am aware that in L.A., there is a history of black people having a problem with the Asian (specifically Korean, usually) shopkeepers and being biased against Asians as a group, and vice-versa. If you look back to ancient times and read their writings, you will see many examples of discrimination based on ethnicity. Any time you hold the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others, that is racism. And no wonder it is so prolific, because we are all so different. It's just that cultural values and differences need to be sorted out from inherent abilities or worthiness. If you think about it, it's not hard to understand why a Korean person might be biased against urban black people because they are culturally very different. (This is not an apology for racism in any form, just an observation.) It's human nature to fight and struggle and be angry. Look at gang wars within people of the same national origin - an outsider looks at them and wonders why they are killing their own kind, but to them the differences are very real. Just so with racism, since we are all the human race. There could be observers outside our own species watching and thinking we are absolutely crazy.

As for "white pride" it's just such a shame that some hateful people have taken over the word "pride" and put it to an ugly use. I'm not really "proud" of being white, although in some ways I feel like I got a lucky break, since I'm aware of the advantages that affords me in this society. I am proud of my particular sub-group of European heritage and my family background. There's no reason that has to mean I hate anybody else.

Strange Famous

And in answer to the original question... with not context it makes me think of the RA the Ruged Man track - Black & White

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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meembo

Putting together the two words "white" and "pride" make as much sense to me as "banana" and "carburetor". People can make the connections and emphasize them ad naseum, but they are irrelevant to anything that's important to me. My ancestors did great things -- so did yours, most likely. Why does it matter where they are from? Good for all of them. Only a fool is ashamed his skin.

Prejudice is a human frailty, and every suffers from it. Racism is a socio-enonomic act, and in the US you gotta be white to do it, because you have to have the power to yield it. Some parts of white America imagine that they are unfairly discriminated against because of their skin, but their families still have far fewer barriers to get an education and get hired than the families of minorities, all because of active discrimination against minorities. As a white man I've seen and heard that discrimination many times. That's the silent power of racism in the US. Discrimination from a position of power is exactly what racism is and does. Since I'm a white, hetero, healthy middle class man, I don't see how I could be discriminated against in the US.

I'm white and very advantaged as such in the USA -- not every day of my life, but certainly in general. I didn't construct things that way, and I eliminate unfairness when I see it. I wince when I think I've been treated unfairly, but resentment towards the fortunate people around me is no way to solve the problem. As far as race is concerned, it means almost nothing to me. I'm a genealogist, and I like to think of people in terms of their immediate family, with the people they love. Their families do most everything my family does. Some customs seem pretty far out there, but then again the conversations at my Thanksgiving table get pretty weird too. BFD!

Scholarships --everybody gets uptight about scholarships. I think the variety of scholarships for "minorities" is a fabulous thing. They were conceived and funded and lobbied for by people generally thinking of their own families -- their people, their culture, their children -- having opportunities they never had. Blaming the good fortune of others in terms of scholarships makes no sense to me. Should I focus my frustration at my cost of college on the rich white man up the street, whose life has afforded him more "opportunities" than mine? That sounds ridiculous. But we very easily target people who look different from us, usually because we know so very little about them. My sister married a Puerto Rican man, who was very well educated and provided well for his family. He developed a brain tumor, and fought it for a decade, and their family lost nearly every asset they had earned. When it became time for their daughter to go to college, she applied for minority scholarships because she was half Puerto Rican, and those scholarships got her into an Ivy league school she could have never afforded without her minority scholarship. She might have moved ahead of another person financially because of who her dad was, but was it unfair? Should there be more PRs in Ivy League schools?

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raveneye

In response to the original post: It makes about as much sense to be proud of your ancestry as it does to be proud of the fact that you have two arms and two legs. You have no control over it, so you neither gain nor lose character points.

On race and biology: race is purely a social/economic construct without any biological reality. There are utterly no biological divisions within the human species. We are all one human race.

On race in America: the divisions that the U.S. government imposes on people are both biologically and psychologically arbitrary. Consider that the category "Hispanic" includes Haitians (who may be visibly "black" with 100% African ancestry) but excludes Brazilians. One hundred years ago, it was common knowledge that Italians, Irish, and Jews were three different races. For the increasing population of mixed-race people, where do you draw the line?

On using race-conscious remedies of social problems: these are always going to be problematic because the whole concept of race and ethnicity is subjective and fluid. And they will always be divisive because they pit one group against another and their benefits are unmeasurable.

On racism: human beings are born with the innate knowlege that they are embedded within a social network in which it is necessary to form coalitions with allies against common enemies. If you have kids, you know that practically from day one of their social life they form coalitions against enemies. However, racism is not innate, it is learned. Children in mixed groups do not form coalitions based on "race" unless they are taught to do so.

If we want our children to be color blind as adults, we (including the government) should not teach them racial categories.

william

Having read all of the threads, I still don't understand. Why does race have to be an issue? You would think in today's society, it wouldn't matter. Have we not learned from the past?

william

Just to add a fluxom - white power? WTF? Why even start this thread? WTF is white power? And why bother? Do you feel so threatened by others? Is this a power to exert over others? Why? Do you not see the BS in the MiddleEast? They use the same excuse to kill our troops (not like me!).

Xell101

Racial sensitivity for the sake of racial sensitivity is stupid. It's as stupid an reckless race based hate, it's substantially less destructive, but equally stupid. I'm not racist. It didn't even occur to me that I was one of less than twenty white people in a store of probably 150 people till my buddy commented on how 'oppressive' the atmosphere was as part of a humorously lame pun. Race doesn't matter, and if you think it matters and you're within cogent reasoning, you lose brownie points.

You win the thread.

Carno

Funny thing is, no matter how many people comment on the TFP about how things should be or the ideal; in the real world, it still exists and it's still an issue.

OFKU0

Ha ha,..I thought this thread was about gay white people. White Pride!!!...Canadian eh!!

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ScottKuma

People need to grow thicker skins -- no matter what the color.

Things have gotten ridiculous...you can't say anything concerning race/culture/gender/sexual orientation/religion/political affiliation/city,state of residence/ethnicity anymore. (Did I leave anything out?)

I think we as a culture need to grow the hell up and learn to get along. The alternatives are to either always be fighting amongst ourselves or to become so fucking bland & homogenized that we'll die of boredom.

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tspikes51

"Minority applicants are especially encouraged"

I saw this on a poster that was trying to get people to be RA's. At first, I thought affirmative action is such bullshit. Then I got to thinking of their true intentions. Maybe it is because there are quite a few minority students on campus. Let me elaborate: the minority students are usually assigned to a floor with other people of the same group, or at least given a roommate that is in that same group.

My reasoning is that maybe that minorities "understand" each other better, and would be better off with an RA of the same ethnic/racial group, even though that is the only thing that separates them from the majority group (i.e. they all speak English). This too is the wrong way to go about things.

I thought my college embraced diversity and the understanding of different cultures. Isn't keeping the students of different race separate interfering with that?

I work with people of many different races/ethnicities (actually, I have trouble because of the multitude of accents) at one of the cafeterias on campus. We don't ever have any problems with not understanding each other, and actually treat everybody equally, because we have the same pay and position. If we went by affirmative action standards, my minority co-workers (by the way, I'm pretty much as full-blooded white American as you can get--as in my ancestors moved here in the 17th century) would get special consideration for raises, promotion, and hiring. However, that would create dissent between workers. Why can't we do this everywhere? In other words, why is race such an important factor???

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tspikes51

Umm, it's a scientific term for people with less of a certain type of pigment in their skin (I think it's called melanin). There are 3 basic scientific races:

Caucasian (now called Caucasoid)
Mongoloid
Negroid

EDIT:
Exactly. If a black guy wants to call me a cracker, I really don't care. I've actually been called racist before on the account of just acknowledging race.

And on "racist jokes": I seriously think they're funny. What's the difference between that and laughing about how women can't drive or guys leave the seat up??? What's so wrong about laughing about our differences???

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