aberkok

I'll have to agree with the above sentiments. I feel like there's some sour grapes here.

By using "white" as a blanket term, Clavus, you become a part of the problem. I'm pretty "white" myself but I come from a Turkish family. Am I still white? I've been fortunate not to have to experience any of the racism I've seen around me in Toronto. I've been lucky enough not to see anything too serious or violent, but with the large Chinese and Korean population here, I can't tell you how many times I've seen people look down on those folks for not knowing english, or the food they eat. Last year I saw a fight break out between a "white" woman and a native american woman at a subway stop. Guess which one the cops let go without asking questions?

Having seen stuff like this, I feel like I have an unfair advantage because of my appearance. In North America, those who inhabit the upper classes who control the establishments of power (i.e. the Government and Police) are responsible for the enforcement of many racist policies. This sure makes it hard for me to have any sympathy for any concept of "white pride."

For the record, I'm not ashamed of myself for sharing the same skin colour as racists. I am generally ashamed of the human race, though. I think our time would be better spent doing something about the racism around us, than crying over how we're not allowed to have "white pride" day.

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jorgelito

This is actually outdated and now considered false and is no longer accepted.

So, Caucasian in reference to race is incorrect. It is still a reference to a geographic region (generally around the Caucasus Mountain range).

From The American Heritage Book of English Usage:

Caucasian and its more restricted synonym Caucasoid belong to the system of racial classification proposed by European anthropologists in the 18th and 19th centuries. These terms refer to a broad group of peoples indigenous to Europe, western Asia, northern Africa, and much of the Indian subcontinent. Caucasian and Caucasoid are in some ways the most problematic of the traditional racial terms, not so much for any offensive character as for their widespread misuse as a synonym for “white” or “European.” Many of the peoples traditionally included in this category, such as the Berbers of North Africa and the various Hindu and Muslim peoples of northern India, have skin color noticeably darker than most Europeans and as such are not usually considered to be white. Obviously they are not European either. Yet in casual usage, in police reports, and even in many dictionaries, Caucasian is often used interchangeably with those two terms. You should take care to avoid this imprecision. 1
Caucasian, but not Caucasoid, is also a geographic term referring to the Caucasus (the mountainous region between the Black and Caspian Seas for which the racial category was named) or to any of its indigenous peoples including Azerbaijanis, Armenians, and Ossetians. When using Caucasian in this sense you may wish to provide an initial context so as to avoid any ambiguity; instead of a Caucasian people you might include a phrase such as a people inhabiting (or from) the Caucasus. 2
More at race. 3


The American Heritage® Book of English Usage. Copyright © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

As you can see, Causcasian is NOT a blanket term for "white" people.

Race is a farcical notion, we need to all get over it.

Lak

I'm proud to be me - "white" has nothing to do with it.

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waxmax

I'm more of a lightly browned fuzzy peach.

Humans are very intelligent creatures that have a keen eye for detail. I firmly believe that if everyone on the planet had the same skin color, we could still find the visual detail to segregate ourselves into groups. All you damn blondes are ruining the country! Go back to Sweden, you freaks!

Anyway, religion is back in the Hate spotlight. It's a good strong hate because it gets rid of the pesky skin color thing. The radical Christian blows up the abortion clinic, the radical Jew blows up all the arab children, the radical Muslim kills the infidel. The Mormans often talk down to Buddahs. Don't get me started with the radical Krishnas.

People will always hate each other and the civil folks among us will always make laws to curb the violence. We can teach our children at home to be respectful of each other. Then they go to high school and get ruined. We actually listen to the media tell us reports of all the countrys that hate us and we get paranoid. So we hate them back.

Skin color is just a thinly veiled excuse to be the worse we can be to each other because that's just how we are.

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Lockjaw

You said you read the entire thread but you didn't read the first post closely enough. He didn't say white power. He said white pride. Two very different things.

Lockjaw

They can be damaging when people take the joke as a truth in spite of evidence other wise. When dealing with race if a person hears a joke about blacks being stupid or Latinos being lazy or Jews being greedy many people don't know anyone of these ethnic groups well enough to say "Well that's not correct they all aren't that way." A racist generalization might start out as a joke but it can soon get twisted into seriously thinking anybody in that group acts in that manner and considering racial jokes are typically mean spirited there you have your basis for perpetuating racist thinking even through something as innocent as a joke.

If you think a racist joke is funny. Well that's you and I'd hope you'd have the intellect and maturity not to lump anybody from that group in a negative light because of a joke. But I caution you to be careful if you decide you will repeat something hateful like that because you never know who is listening and they don't have the ability to tell if you are joking and they don't have access to your inner thoughts on race issues.

Because you could say "Hey I was just joking." But they will be less likely to believe you have no malice towards a group you are telling a racist joke about.

0energy0

"white power!" according to dave chappelle

lol

kellerkline

not surprising really. Pride always blends into the darker reaches of human nature. There are always some who will take a positive idea to the illogical extreem. Where does confidence end, and arrogance begin.

retsuki03

Amen.

d*d

because racist jokes serve no purpose except to enforce racial stereotypes that are at best outdated and at worst exremely insulting.

retsuki03

That is such bullshit.

If whites are the only people with power in the US, I suggest you find me some fucking plantations. You can't think of ways whites can be discriminated against?

Also, to all people who are suggesting I benefitted from being white in America, please explain.

bad jane

my apologies, i should have been more clear. if i had been black or male and still had all my other achievements, i would have recieved a full ride. and these were not programs designated for black or male students--they were open to everyone. i just happened to be told "what a shame..." during the interview process.

i've got no problems with scholarships open to only a select group, i just didn't apply to ones i didn't fit in. but i'm less than thrilled about programs saying they are open to everyone when they are so biased in favor of a group (ANY group) of people that saying anyone can apply is bs.

as for others working harder (or even as hard), i have no doubt that is true in many, perhaps even most situations. however in my case, i know the person who got the scholarship i was after--my grades and test scores were better by a significant margin and i was involved in more extracurricular activities while they had none. is it possible this person aced the interview and i screwed up somehow? sure it is--but that doesn't change what i was told by the interviewer.

and i feel for you on the student loan thing, i'm beginning to think i'll be paying mine off for the rest of my life!

*edit to fix quote tags*

Lockjaw

While I don't agree with the sentiment that only whites can be racist because of some power thing(which is most certainly BS), "white" people in this country do have an advantage. It's not a huge insurmountable gap now unlike the past but it still exsists. The fact that if you are a white male between the ages of 30-65 you are the very face of power and authority in this country. You likely will not be subject to a random raised eye of suspicion from the police. You are on average likely to get treated better either knowingly or subconsciously by people in service industries. You will be more likely to be able to be more readily accepted into other circles of society than a minority be it a high powered social club or a private golf club.
White male shows up at a bicycling meet or a car racing event for example. You are just part of the crowd. Latino male shows up at the same event and they are a dot in the crowd.

A little old lady likely won't eye you as a threat if you stop to help her on the side of the road. Large chunks of the entertainment industry is fairly much tailored to the average white person.

And lastly a white person in many people's eyes legitimizes you or your cause. The Civil Rights movement didn't get any good press until white people started marching and getting arrested. Immigrant plight usually gets no attention until a white person gets involved. Music isn't legitimized or considered viable until a white person starts listening. And inter-racial marriages or relationships in many groups in this country are frowned upon UNLESS it's to a white person. I know several Asian people who have said that their family was against them bringing home a black,latino, but white people while not preferred were acceptable as their pressence would legitimize the marriage more. People that come in from foreign countries do the same thing. To "make it" they don't Americanize persay more so they tend to "white wash" themselves to fit in more with the majority.

The list goes on and on. It's nothing major but it's a lot of little subtle things the average white person either does not know about or takes for granted. This might not be your situation. You may have the life from hell and if you do I'm sorry. I'm black and I consider myself fairly blessed so I don't think the playing field is completely tilted against me. But there are certainly things even small that add up to be substantial. A lot of it isn't intentional it's just a product of the society we live in but to think it doesn't exist would not be looking at the entire truth of the situation.

I typically tell people that feel their life as a white person sucks or is just as hard as any minority. Take that same life and turn black or white and you probably will find it significantly more difficult in at least some aspect.

MSD

THank you. I finally have someone to back me up on this. You were born there. We're all just humans. I can see if you support your home country's sports teams, or something like that, but going around screaming "OMG I'm [insert nationality here!!!!! Look at me, I'm so great!" makes you look stupid.
I think that this is the first time (and possibly last, judging by past discussions in politics) that I agree with you 100%

Carno

Ummm... any paperwork I've ever filled out that asked for race had Caucasian as one of the choices. Never white. That is simply what I was referring to, not whether it is correct or not.


Jesus Christ.

rat

yeah, because the catholics definitely have nothing to do with things....

WASP, another socially acceptable derision of a population segment. Gotta love how things like that are allowed to denigrate certain white people without cause for someone to pause and take a second thought about what they're saying.

simply put, as a white southerner at a conservative university, the ability to be racist is more easily labeled for my: a) region of the country, b) peers at university, c) gender and d) skin tone.

Example: I work at the local country bar. The demographic runs a little like this: 80% caucasian, 15% hispanic, 5% black with a mean age of 28+. Two nights ago, I'm at work (swamper/barback/bouncer) and my GM comes and gets me as we're supposed to throw some guy out that had cussed out one of our female bartenders (who is also the assistant bar manager). She tells us, "it's the black guy with the hat over there" and points at the man. Just so happens there are two black men wearing ballcaps in the specific area she pointed, and the GM mistakenly picked the wrong guy and started grilling him. The bartender lets us know we got the wrong one (the right one was standing 5 feet behind him and was over his shoulder from the tender's point of view) so we end up buying the guy a drink to apologize for our mistake. Then we go and throw out the proper guy and get on with the night. At the end of the night, the bartender tells us the guy we bought a drink for after mistakenly accusing him of cussing her out was bitching about "all you white people discriminating against black people." We had apologized, explained why the mistake was made, and gave him a free drink of his choice. But we were racist because she pointed to an area with two people matching the description we were given and we mistakenly approached the wrong one at first. If anything, the bartender should have given a more detailed description rather than pointing, but she had 10 people in line waiting on drinks and was trying to get things done in the most expedient fashion. But rather than being a simple mistake to the first guy, we were "racially profiling." Our bartender is half-mexican, and damn near whooped his ass on her own for being such a whiny ass and not accepting the apology (though he did take the drink).

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jorgelito

Carn, I wasn't chastising you nor making a personal attack, I was trying to be helpful and clarify things. I didn't think my tone was rude or uncivil.

And I have seen that on the forms too. That's the thing. It's so inconsistent. I have seen white, black, Hispanic, Latino, Asian etc.etc.

It kind of shows how ridiculous the whole thing is.

Lockjaw

Context look into it.

Many Catholics that I know that aren't part of the other ethnic groups like Italians,Latino, etc...strongly identifiy themselves as such. Hence the whole point of my post being that it's not just "blacks" or Asians or whatever minority of the day that seek to group themselves and express pride.
The WASP thing is because frankly from my observation they tend not to have "pride" movements are get overly assertive about their group affiliation.

Please dear sir explain how saying and implying that maybe the typically non demonstrative WASPs need more "love" i.e. should state their pride in themselves is deriding them? This should be interesting.

tspikes51

Then again a white male between the ages of 30 and 65 could be homeless just as easy as a 25 year old Hispanic woman. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist, I'm just saying that if you're at a specific disadvantage at a job or something, you can take it to court.

By the way, two of my supervisors are black women, one is a man from the Middle east, 3 are white women, and the head manager is a white woman. I can only count 4 supervisors that are white men. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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Lockjaw

Quick question what do you think the average person thinks of when they think of "president" or "authority figure"?

I'd bet the majority instantly picture an older white male. As I said in that post being white isn't a ticket to the top with no worries. Not at all. But those little subtle things DO exist.

d*d

Thats because there hasn't been a black predsident yet, so why on earth would you picture any thing other than a older white male - thats what they have all been. As for authority figure, that is entirely subjective and you will find that the older white male idea will only figure heavily in younger white males who have white fathers (since this is the first authority figure most are used to)

Lockjaw

Ah...but I didn't say U.S. president. There are many presidents of companies that are minorities or female. But when the word president is said...one thinks of white male. Even though the word president applies more to than just President of the United States of America.

I'm a young black male and when I think of an authority figure a white male pops into my head instantly. That's the case for many minorities. That's what we have been conditioned into thinking an authority figure is or looks like.

xepherys

Frankly, white folk are not the global majority, as many would like to think... East Asians are. Hell, China alone contains roughly 25-33% of the world's population. There are very few (in comparison) caucasians living there permanently, even less blacks, and even less white/hispanics. Then there are the other east asian countries (japan, vietnam, korea(s), phillipines, singapore, hong kong, et cetera...) that also have very skewed populations to the native side.

So, since white people are NOT the majority, then technically we CAN be slighted.

At any rate, I agree with amny previous posts... people are too thin-skinned. They need to get over themselves. If you're a cracker, kike, nigger, chink, spic or any other type of person... do those words really affect you that much? A prominent black man recently said (though i can't for the life of me recall who at the moment) that the fact that being called a "nigger" is such an affront to the black community is part of the reason why racism still happens white on black. If black people didn't CARE, then there wouldn't be any ammunition for the lame-ass racists to use against them.

It's like being in junior high and dealing with the bully. If you cry and cringe everytime he calls your mama a name, or hits you on the shoulder, he's going to keep it up ad nauseum. If you just go with it, eventually he'll get bored and find another target. Why can't adults learn the same lessons that kids do?

abaya

"What the hell kind of country is this where I can only hate a man if he's white?"

--Hank Hill from King of the Hill... at first he doesn't like his new Laotian neighbor, Khan, because the man is rude, not because he's Asian. But Hank's wife Peggy says that Hank needs to be nice because otherwise everyone will think he's racist (and btw, I'm Asian, and I love this episode).

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ScottKuma

When I was at the University of Michigan, I was absolutely infatuated with a black girl with whom I'd built a friendship. Anyhow, she and I spent quite a bit of time together...but I always wondered why she never ate with my group of friends. So, one day I decided to go eat with her friends. (In a part of the cafeteria where most of the minority students sat.)

I have never in my life received such a cold reception. Having met most of these people on a person-to-person basis, and having never had any problems, I couldn't understand why nobody would talk to me, or even LOOK at me...unless it was to glare.

Later that evening, my friend showed up at my room, demanding to know why I sat there. Her friends had given her all manner of BS for hanging out with me...because I am white.

Later in the year, apparently forgetting the lessons I'd learned earlier, I asked her out...and she told me no...because I'm white.

And yet I'm to believe that I'm the racist.

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Carno

Yeah, I'm sorry about that..

I think it's ridiculous too, but I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

Carno

Yeah I've seen that at my school too. Funny thing I've noticed is that only Arabs and black people seem to do that.

jorgelito

*sigh* You know, sometimes I wish there was a a "reset" button. We seem to be going in circles.

Hardknock

One word can sum all this up. Majority. I could take the easy route and say that its ironic and this is how you get to pay for your ancestors mistakes, but I won't. Celebrate your heritage. I don't care. But realize that the minorites in this country have it just a little bit harder that you do due to predjuices of all kinds whether it's social, financial, etc. Nobody gave my black ass any help either. My parents are middle class and I had to claw my way up the ladder just like my white counterparts. Nobody holds their purses a little bit tighter in the elevator while you're in there, (yes that still happens) automatically expects you to fail in life, end up in jail, or end up on welfare with no future to speak of. Just realize that all the recognition that us minorities get is just a little bit of recognition and support from those in our own communities when otherwise we'd get absolutely no recognition at all if it were left up to the majority.

retsuki03

That is like my saying if you are a black man, you are the very face of good basketball players in our country.
First of all it, like you said, LIKELY. I am also, LIKELY to be viewed as an oppresive white man by "ethnic minorities."
I work in the service industry, and can agree with this to a certain extent. Certain "ethnic groups" are proven to tip differently. The same could also be true for teenagers, in a restaurant (regardless of skin pigment) they tend to tip less than adults.
Again, LIKELY. I would say this is not LIKELY to be much of an advantage to me, as I don't have enough money to get into a private golf club. I would also wager that being an "ethinic minority" is just as LIKELY to help you as hurt you when trying to get into a "high powered social club" especially one interested in "diversity." (usually meaning diversity in skin color, not ideas).
Kinda like if I went to a Tejano Bar, I might seem out of place. Growing up I went to a basketball camp in the inner city. I was a "snowflake amongst the asphalt."
Little old ladies potentially regard all men as a threat regardless of skin color. Then again, some studies have shown that black men on average commit more violent crime than white men. I am not saying this justifies the hypothetical woman's prejudice. I am not saying the report is accurate or fair. But it is understandable from my prospective, that a woman could be in fear of a threat preceived or real without her being a racist.
Does this include rap music? It is estimated 80% of rap music (I think it is fair to say, usually preformed by black artists) is bought by whites. Does it include BET or movies like Soul Plane television like the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air (i've seen every show!), in Living Color, Moesha (sp?), the Wayans Bros. movies/show? Does the Cosby show count? How about professional sports? Does the NBA or NFL count as tailored for the average white person?
I could argue that it was a natural result or more people being involved rather than white people involved. Regardless, I don't think this is really a strong point to argue that I have an advantage. I mean, look at Jesse Jackson getting money from NASCAR. Considering the NAACP and the congressional black caucus, I could argue that black people often get special considerations that white people don't.
I think that is a perception issue.
As if some black or latino families don't disapprove of interracial marriages too. This one goes both ways.
I don't really understand this one. If someone comes from Ireland, and they try to assimlate into American culture, are they "white washing" too (or are they already white)? I may be missing your point here.
I would say there is a much stronger correlation with people's bank accounts then the pigment in their skin.


The things I have responded too, are not meant to attack your postition/point of view. I just wanted to offer you my views on the things you posted, since you took time to answer my question, I thought it only fair. Thanks for reading mine.


Overall, I agree with MLK. "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

jorgelito

Retsuki03,

Nice response, I really enjoyed it! I don't agree with everything you say but I really liked the way you disseminated your responses in relation to the previous post. I think it was well done. Just my opinion. Nice job. [smiley face]/

Lin

While people are still discriminated against because of the colour of their skin , I think we will need 'positive discrimination' to counter balance it.I have no problem with it at all.When/if we ever all get on an even playing field THEN is the time to start dismantling the system.
As for being able to celebrate being white...I never understand why anyone that is white would need to . Our culture if thats what you mean , sure , but as others have said I think we do so already in loads of different ways , we just call it by more apropriate names. "White pride" why do we need to be 'proud' of being white , do I need to be 'proud' of having two legs ?
Im white , thats just the way it is . If I was black and had racism thrown in my face regularly then Id feel like standing up and shouting about being proud to be black . But I have no reason to while I live in the society that I do.

Nazggul

The driving issue here isn't in the numbers, majority vs minority, it's about who has the power. There have been numerous cases brought to court that claim discrimination based on the fact that an individual is a white male. They lose every time. The most recent I can think of is a white male that sued a gym that only allows women. He lost precisely because he is a white male. A woman can go out and start a female only gym, but a white male cannot because they are the demographic group that maintains power in our society, from government to corporations to social clubs, etc.

I think Suave gets at this point well (although he omits gender from his point), and it is held up in courts today.

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Lockjaw

And they are but this does not invalidate that positions of power are often equated with being white and male.

I didn't say it was right or wrong just stating the reality of the situation. If an average person on the street views the white male as oppresive then there might be a reason there. Not saying it's correct or valid but it should be something that should be addressed rather than dismissed of "I don't know what they are talking about." Because nobody considers themselves oppresive or a beneficary of a stacked system.

That statement applies more to just the restaurant business. Take being followed around a shoe store because they think you are going to steal something while the unassuming white male in the corner really might be shoving stuff under his shirt.

I don't recall ever saying this applied unlaterally across the board and every white person benefits from it. I seem to also recall saying it might not apply to you(or the reader). But suffice to say if you increased your fiscal level you would still be a white male. Even if I were filthy rich in several places I would not be permitted access based on something I can not change.

Yet for a person in a majority group this typically is not the norm but the exception. For a person in a minority group if they venture outside of their little tight knit community to any event of size they find themselves in that situation much much more often.

Then would it be right that people would be more prone to thinking a white male would be more likely to steal money from the company they work for since most white collar crime is commited by white males? No. This woman would be treating a person differently based upon their race solely and not knowing anything about the person they are treating in that manner and that is the very definition of racism. And it is also very insulting.
Using the logic of "a lot of activity A is commited by people of category B so I will distrust everyone that is in category B" We shouldn't have many male CEOs,soccer moms should be followed around grocery stores,and I should be looking over my shoulder at the white guy behind me because he might be a serial killer.

How about most of the CBS,NBC,and ABC line up for the last 10 years,the majority of the radio stations,fashion magazines,most of the movies released every year etc... Yes. That I don't think at all is incorrect that the majority of entertainment is set up and geared towards white tastes and sensibilities. It's the largest market with the most desposible income so obviously this would be the primary target audience the majority of the time. But this is part of the little things that I was speaking of earlier.

Again I direct you towards the civil rights movement and the growing movement of immigrants rights in this country. The civil rights movement was fairly large(numerous large protests had already occured) but it wasn't until white northerns got associated that it started regularly making the news and becoming an issue for national politics.

It's not a perception issue it's fact.
Jazz and blues did not become viable enough for mass marketing until white youth picked up on it. The same thing for rock and hip hop. Rap had been around pretty heavily ever since the late 70s and early 80s. But it exploded when white youth started listening to the music and then music companies realized that they had a music genre to exploit but only UNTIL that happened. Just as the whole latino "explosion" from a few years back. One would think Ricky Martin,Mark Anthony etc...were brand new names and faces. They weren't they were around for a long time and had very successful careers in the Spanish music scene but white America picked up on it and they went big and you then had music companies signing latin artists left and right to exploit the next big trend.

Did I say it didn't? No. The Asian/White thing was an example. However you seemed to miss my point so I'll restate it.
Even in those families where interracial dating or marriage is not accepted(black and latino included)it's MORE acceptable for a person to bring home a white person than another race in many cases. Prime example of this is my old boss. She is Mexican. She had a white paramour who she broke up with
and starting dating a very nice black guy(successful,decent looking chap). She eventually broke up with him not because she did not like him but because of the pure hell she got dating a black man and her family even stated flatly that if she was going to mess around outside her race she should at least be with someone who could open more doors for her. Which if they bothered to look at her beau past his skin color they would have seen the guy for a very successful and stabile individual. These statements were not made concerning the white gentleman she was dating just a few months earlier. Again not saying this is the rule and in every family and social group it's this way but it's something that is noted and not all that uncommon that even in fairly elitist(racially at least) that white is ok if they have to "stray".

Ok you are in Texas think really hard on who is the largest group of immigrants to this country and how they conduct themselves concerning assimilation of the culture.

As I have already stated there are other things that have nothing to do with finances that cause that. There are simply too many "coincidences" to be explained away as being fiscally linked. The black person dressed nicely and from a high income bracket being made to feel like they are a crime suspect when a white person from an obviously lower income bracket aren't. The latino that is cutting his own lawn is asked if he wants to make an extra buck cutting a lawn because somebody assumed he was the hired help,while the white neighbor next door doesn't get the same question.

No problem I didn't take it as an attack.

While I agree with King's sentiment it likely will never happen as this thread has demonstrated people fail to see the other little subtle inequalities amongst the races and sexes(white/black, latino/asian, black/latino all races and cultures have their little conflicts with one another) that are a very stark reality for many people.

Gilda

I'd like to chime in on this one with a supporting anecdote. My SO is of Japanese descent, and I've heard her mother discussing with her and her younger sister the exact order of acceptance for various ethnic groups her daughters might date and marry. Japanese is best, but non-Japanese Asians (and there's a specific order for various Asian groups) are also good, whites are acceptable if they are of good quality, Mexicans distasteful, and black boys out of the question. The irrationality of this rank-ordering is so bizarre that it's more acceptable for her daughter to be with a white woman than a black man.