Sun Tzu

Revenge: To inflict punishment in retaliation for personal injury.

I recently have done something that I now feel bothered about. I?m a person that strives to live by four ideals: to always stay true to my word, to always do my best, not to assume what others are thinking, and not to take thinsg personally. I fall short of those more often than not; or at least a couple. Out of the many lessons I've learned and continue to learn in life; I seem to be having difficulty in establishing knowledge in a particular area. This is acting on behaviors and intentions of revenge. Personally even though I've become skilled in this dark truly self destructive path, it?s not something I've ever felt proud of doing.

I won't go into why I did this, but the recent event mentioned, I have come to realize that I did some real damage. The person (target) did something that I allowed to put me into revenge mode. (in other words they indirectly were still controlling me-or I was allowing that) I made a flyer stating that this person was a child molester and pornographer with a detailed map pointing to their house and address. Afterward I made about 10,000 copies and spread them through that entire neighborhood, including local stores and bulletin boards.

Its short of what I really wanted to do but I'm not in a position where I can have any trouble with assault charges put against me, so this was the choice from my "rolodex of damage".

Even though I was smiling while doing it, now I feel the only person I've really damaged is myself. In any case: I know different situations bring forth different emotions. Such as if anyone physically harmed someone I love I would probably go to jail. Outside of hurting a loved one I wanted to know what anyone else thought about revenge in a general sense. Do you feel that a majority of the time its worth doing? Is there anyone that has never acted on impulses of revenge?

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bermuDa

wow that's pretty harsh, I hope they were deserving of such a punishment.

I think people get what they deserve, whether or not I'm the one to dish out their just desserts depends on how strongly I feel about what they've done and how well I could carry the revenge out. for the most part, karma works too slowly for me.

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ARTelevision

No. I don't have that emotion in me. I don't know why. It's a fairly common human emotion/motivation. I am more concerned with my own life and well-being than I am concerned with the people's lives that may be responsible for doing damage.

What I am saying here is acting out of the emotion/motivation of revenge only hurts oneself. Why? Because it lowers one to the level of one’s enemies and it is self-destructive in many ways.

You are a very intelligent person. I have come to respect you. I am actually surprised by what you are saying here. But since you are willing to be so honest I believe I can be equally honest in my response.

The most intelligent thing to do here is to see the emotion/motivation for what it is. It is an error of judgment because it does harm to oneself to act out of revenge. It is far wiser and more effective to ignore ones enemies than it is to seek to achieve revenge. In general, not only do I ignore my enemies I typically disengage from them once I have identified their maleficent nature. If anything like direct action is needed, however, I do confront them both publicly and privately until they are made aware of my judgment against them. Those confrontations have become less and less frequent, since even the act of confrontation does tend to bring one down to the level of ones enemies.

Here’s a bit of advice from William James:

“The art of being wise
is the art of knowing
what to overlook.”

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wannabenakid247

I agree with what Art said.
Revenge does not really make you feel any better and two wrongs dont make it right what ever they have done. What had they done by the way?

thejoker130

Ouch, thats fuckin harsh.....
Revenge for me seems somewhat pointless. Everybody gets what they deserve in the end. What can anybody do that could possably be worse that what the reaper man has in store?
Besides after they die you can giggle yourself silly and piss on their graves every hour on the hour if you really want.

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OFKU0

It would help a little if you mentioned something in brief what this person did to you. I would hope for your sake also if your actions are not entirely truthful that no one goes and kills this guy or you may be found responsible.

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skier

Revenge does indeed leave a bitter taste in your mouth. It's kind of like procrastination- it feels good at first but you feel worse and worse as time goes on.
my own revenge story is from 11th grade, i got beaten up in the hall for no reason at all by three guys (bullies) i could have taken one or maybe two of them but all three laid a harsh beatdown on me. I was feeling real pissed so i broke into one of the guy's trucks and filled it with expanding insulation foam. the hard stuff. He had to get it towed and i never saw it again. It did feel good while i was doing it but man i regret it now. Empathy kind of sucks sometimes

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quadro2000

Only yourself? You don't think that you've potentially damaged the reputation and maybe the life of the other person?

People take child molestation very seriously, as well they should. Something like this could potentially get your subject evicted from his neighborhood. Or beaten. Or killed. People might look at this person differently for the rest of their life.

I would be also curious to know what this person did to you that caused you to react in such a way. Also, I'd like to know if you've seen any repercussions from what you've done.

I'm sorry to sound judgmental, but in my heart I think that what you did is really horrible. Do you feel bad about it because of what you've potentially done to the other person, or do you feel bad because you enacted revenge in general?

My thoughts on revenge: if I ever get "revenge," it's always in a relatively harmless way. I've sent enemies magazine subscriptions and catalogs for gay porn. I'm with Art; I find that most people that do me wrong aren't worth my getting upset with. Revenge feels good for a little while but ultimately makes me feel like I stooped to their level.

My two cents worth. I know it's not nice, but it's honest.

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*Nikki*

I myself have always been a firm beleiver in Karma. What goes around comes around......

I have had the oppertunity for revenge serveral times and never acted upon it bc I knew in the long run the person whould get what they had coming to them. From what I have heard it always turned out that way.

I would say go take down the damn fliers. Even if you have to do it in the middle of the night. Just hope that you didn't ruin this persons entire life over this.

monty121052

I firmly belive in an eye for an eye routine, or two eyes if they really piss me off.
I dont go out of my way to hurt anyone, so I don't like it when some-one dose it to me.

Hanxter

i would hope that what you did was in fact merited - however - if not, you lied.

you may very well have ruined this persons life, and for that, you should be punished to the full extent of the law. you slandered this person and took away his freedom. you acted as judge, jury and hangman.

may i suggest that you pull them all down and place a notice in the local paper that your action was in fact a lie and that this person was the front for a very malicious act.

i feel sorry for you.

sipsake

You may not have assault charges filed against you, but if your mark finds out your identity, you may be in for a steaming bunch of legal problems. There are laws against libel and what you did fits the legal definition.

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Orodinn

Why should he be punished by the law? He does regret his decision, doesnt he? Laws are merely a creation of society and they're only there to ensure the security of those living in it. They're not there to punish. We don't put people in prisons to punish them but to prevent them from doing harm to other people in society (well, that's how at least it was intended to be). He did act impulsively, but since he regrets it and wouldnt do it again if the situation arose, he should be forgiven. You don't get to judge what should be done to him. If you don't think he payed the fair price by feeling the guilt for the actions he's done, well there's karma to take care of things. You acuse him of acting as judge, jury and hangman. Yet, NOBODY (human anyway) should be given the power of judging an other human being. I don't see how it's different to have society (which is a human invention too) act as judge, jury and hangman. As far as I see things, laws are just the judgement of other humans on this human. How is this better?

The way I've always seen it, laws don't always mean good. I don't know why people always associate laws with good. Laws are made by humans, and because we are not perfect, our inventions aren't either. That's why there lawyers in today's society. We shouldn't need lawyers, but because the system is so fucked up, we do. Laws are like the big kid in the school yard. Because he's the strongest kid there, and is somewhat fair in his judgement, people respect him and go by his rules. That doesn't mean he's good though.

Kaos

Libel is right. Considering the huge potential for physical and monetary damage that this act of revenge could produce, you could be sued for thousands, if not millions in compensative damages to this person.

As much as I could plan out some revenge schemes (and as bad as this may sounds, I feel like one more push and I'm putting one into action even though I know the result will be completely destroying someone's life) I usually rely on Karma to get the job done for me.

theguyondacouch

I'm sure there where better ways to have dealed with whatever this guy did to you than ruining his life. It may not have seemed like a big deal at the time, but this action could follow him through life. Also, you are not free from legal action. He could sue you blind if he ever found out who it was. Think, slander. And it wouldn't be difficult to find out who you are, after all, all he has to do is go to the local print shops, and find out who printed out 10,000 slanderous flyers.

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quadro2000

Something sounds fishy to me. Don't most print shops look at what they're copying for people before they copy them? I know that if I go into Kinkos with sheet music, they won't copy it because it's copyrighted material. And wait, Sun Tzu, you're saying that you actually put 10,000 copies all over the neighborhood? Maybe it's because I just can't believe that somebody actually would do such a thing, but this is all starting to sound highly suspect to me.

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Hanxter

500 sheets to a ream / 2 reams to a bundle / 5 bundles to a bale

used the office copier

Peetster

I prefer grace over justice. I don't want justice, because I am a flawed human that has made and continues to make mistakes. Therefore, I try to exhibit grace and forgiveness towards others.

I'm not always successful. I'm a flawed human.

I'm impressed by the wisdom of your insights. I hope that you can learn to tame the beast of revenge.

joe100

*I could not moderate myself, so I was moderated.*

joe100

Shit, now he is going to track me down and if he is a better position to deal with an assault charge beat me up.

Don't ruin your life or others with how you react to something. Be the bigger man and move on and forward in your life.

sipsake

Pretty rude response to someone who had the balls to spill his guts about something that he was ashamed of.

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joe100

Sun Tzu, I am concerned about your behavoir.

It gives me the impression that you lack maturity. I wonder if seeking some counselling would help you understand your feelings.

If dark behavoirs are left to grow they can cause the behavoirs to become too extreme.

Seriously, I am not trying to be a smart ass. But if you could hold onto your anger long enough to exact a premediated revenge then that is sign that you have anger issues.

What you did only caused more harm. If you think the fellow needs to be dealt with then involve the law.

Sapper

Have you ever considered that what you did was not only morally wrong ... but illegal??

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Snakebyt

remind me never to piss you off.. you play mean

jw_toyboy

Jeez Sun Tzu... remind me not to get on your bad side. The provocation for that revenge must have been very serious - but I cant think of anything that would warrant that sort of responses, unless the guy was in fact a child molester.
I've pulled more than my share of pranks and served up a lot of revenge but that is beyond revenge...

Sun Tzu

There is a person I’ve had a friendship with practically my whole life. She’s the sister I didn’t have by blood. 2 years ago she became involved with a man who I can’t even begin to define. After a couple black eyes she took my advice and got a restraining order. Although she was never physically attacked he continued to harass her in ways that kept him just outside of being arrested. 4 months ago her young daughter said this creep was waiting outside her school when she was released. The girl got a ride home from a carpooling mom, but she didn’t see him talk to her. The authorities were notified and his response was he was walking that way and was not on school grounds; and simply said “hello” to her. He was charged because he wasn’t even allowed to do that, but was out of jail a week later.

Her car was vandalized and had a substance poured into the gas tank ruining the engine. Dead animals have been left at her doorstep and other things I won’t mention. Due to the fact there has never been a witness and this person had an “alibi” each time, the individuals that are hired to serve and protect had their arms crossed. I installed a surveillance system both in and outside of her home. It remained quiet for a brief amount of time, until she and her daughter came home to find their dog dead on their doorstep; someone had given it a piece of meat with poison. Again the authorities were notified, and she was notified that an investigation would be underway. They did state that without incriminating evidence; circumstantial would do little good even if it existed.

A couple weeks ago she had an unmarked card with hotdogs and smiley faces on it and nothing else.

The physical assaults sustained nearly sent me over the deep end. I became a little pissed when she didn’t report him---and that’s ultimately her choice. She did however know when it was time to drop this loser; the only problem did not know what kind of a psycho he was. I’ve been grinding my teeth a long time, both at the man and the police. When I found out he talked to the girl is when I spent the night in jail for assault. He slept like a baby in his own bed that night—it’s probably just as well. I spent a pretty penny and attended 10 hours of anger management (mandatory) to have the charges dismissed (although they never truly are) He attempted to sue me and lost. I think the violation may have helped there. The dog . . . . I won’t comment what went through my mind. No; there was no proof, but I know it was him or someone associated with him.

I care about my career, my life, and desire to be a giver over being a taker in life. The amount of restraint I’ve placed on me has been great. I will also add this man does have a wealthy bank account---which he inherited. I think this places him in a certain light in the eyes of some. While some may know him for what he is; there’s many that don’t. When I saw the card; it’s almost as if an autopilot kicked in.

2 wrongs don’t make a right. It was an immature and malicious thing to do. I understand that in some cases of spouse battery and harassment the inflicted is just as much to blame because of fear and self worth issues---although I still have no mercy for the aggressor. That is not the case here. Legal channels have been taken, and for the most part have failed. I think many would be shocked in the 2 people I approached for advice before doing my intended action. Although neither could assist me because of what their professions are, both thought it was justified and offered the assistance in other ways.

At the end I feel bad and need to evaluate allot of things. I believe in karma as well. I suppose that when this took place (in the moment) I was willing to accept the cosmic consequence that I would be bestowing upon myself. I remember something a sensei told me a long time ago: “I will do my best not to physically engage with a person. There does come a point when deflection no longer becomes an option and the person becomes an opponent. It is then the person’s poor judgment that they realize to late; they are not an opponent but an enemy. Because I have no true hatred for anyone I will physically inflict enough tactical damage to them that the memory of the experience never leaves them. In doing so it will assist them in perhaps not repeating the same action to someone that will kill them or save someone else from being harmed”.

My fear of legal recourse from this extends as far as me putting the experience up on a public forum. Do I care if I have damaged this person in this dark action? I don’t know. I have learned a couple things. At this point and with the help of some friends much wiser than I will let Karma run its course and feel confident things will work out as they should.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Sun Tzu

No offense taken, theres a good chance I would feel the same way had I heard this from another. I actually had counseling a few years ago in dealing with a break up. An aching heart is proably the worst pain Ive felt. So in speaking for myself couseling has had its place and been a useful tool in the past. Other than this area most who know me personally entrust me as an honorable person. This was a difficult evolution for me. I have allot to work on, but I dont think I would find it on that particular path. I value your input or else I wouldnt have made this thread. It will be just a matter of looking at what is effective and not effective in contributing to me being the man I strive to be.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

joe100

Sun Tzu, I just read the details of the situation that you find yourself in.

I see that you do understand your behavoir and that this is not a case of immaturity.

If I was in your position I would have done something. I am not sure what I would have done. But I would have done something.

The fact that you are bothered by what you did tells me that you are in fact a good person.

Keep up your diligence to catch this guy and I hope he doesn't drag you down to his level in the process.

I have nothing else to say because your situation is out of my realm of conprehension.

shakran

All I can say is, you'd better hope you didn't make the copies at the local copy shop, 'cause if you did and this guy calls the cops, they can find out who you are and you're up a creek.

That said, if this guy were doing that to my friend I'd probably act myself. I wouldn't do anything as crazy as what you did - I'd figure out some way to stop the situation while hopefully keeping myself out of trouble.

analog

Well, as far as the posters are concerened, if even ONE person saw you putting them up, you are royally, A-1 fucked up the ass, no two ways about it. The cops know you hate him, it won't be hard to put 2 and 2 together.

As far as the story goes... I too have a sister by all but blood who i've known since basically her birth, when I was 4. If something like this had happened to her, and the things you describe, I'd have taken him out. No doubt. I'd have blown his car up to hell and back, with him at the wheel.

I'm not big on revenge, not at all- but you do NOT fuck with my people. In fact, you can do damn near anything you want to me, but if you threaten my girl, or my family, or someone close to me, God himself will punish you through my hands, I swear it.

He represents a clear and present danger. I, for one, admire your restraint- not in what you've done, but in what you haven't done. You seem to have held yourself in for quite some time, and it comes across in your style and cadence of speech. You have what I like to call, "Quiet Rage". The kind that just builds inside... you want to tear their heart out, but to outward appearances, you're smiling or indifferent.

Good luck, and don't listen to those who put you down. Listen to your heart, and you'll know if you truly deserve such harsh words. If you really are sorry for doing it, I applaud you. I would feel absolutely zero remorse.

Fire

Karma exists

Sometimes it needs a helping hand

The law is irrelevent when my loved ones are threatened

This may not justify it, but I simply do not care

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MSD

I strongly believe that vigilante justice should only be used when the law has failed. Having said that, I woulud not have been able to show the restraint that you did in that situation.

I think that you fully understand your action, and although you know that he deserved worse, you kept your hands off of him. Even so, you feel remorseful for doing it. Draw your own conclusion from that.

Orodinn

You a gangster or something? Violence won't solve anything. In any situation, it's always easier to destroy than it is to act contructively. Destroying might make you feel better for the next few minutes, but in the long run, you're hurting yourself. And if the other guy has friends like you?

Eldaire

Revenge is a dish best served cold. With a pinch of vinegar. Maybe a little ginger. And a side of mashed potatoes.

WhoaitsZ

DOH! damn, dude, I understand your hate but what you did is just way too fucked up. I will not frown at all if i see you on CNN for being arrested.

if I and friends found out about a child molester we'd get him beat shitless. the guy deserves it, sure, but not on these grounds. a child molester is the absolute lowest of people. they should die. what if we killed him?

now as you guys know, i can be pretty tough on people like this. the law exists to protect and cover the asses of politicians. they should be tried first, however. if they fail... take care of it.

you should had confronted and beat him senseless. but to do what you did is just fucking wrong.

and for the make love not war only people. I seem to remember some jewish people helped out greatly by violence. Germany's murdering rampage was not stopped by diplomacy or kind words.

I hate violence. but when it is neccesary, do it and do it right. if you're man enough to draw blood then be man enough to pay.

avoid violence when possible. maim them when you act. it's that simple.

Orodinn

dunno if youre referring to me, but surely, its not violence that solved the problem. Look beneath the surface.

Shpoop

i as well don't act upon revenge... just let the feeling pass

what pisses me off is when i dont act upon it, and later see something happens to that person, but he doesnt realize why and keeps on doing whatever it was he did

analog

Violence <b>can</b> solve <b>some</b> things. *Random sarcastic comments I decided to remove before posting*.

You <b>cannot</b> say that in ALL cases, there is a non-violent way to solve things, and make them equal- or even CLOSE to equal. Automatically eliminating an option (violence) from your problem-solving methods makes your methods weaker.

I would like to convey my thoughts on this, as a serious debate of the specific pros and cons using examples and reasoning. Consider for a moment, if you will:

If you don't consider violence as an option, which is obviously the most drastic measure, then how can you accurately measure the relative pluses/minuses of your other options?

Example- If a guy grabs your wife or girlfriend on the ass, you have several options open to you.

You can...
1. tell him his actions were inappropriate, and that if someone did that to HIS wife, or sister, or mother, or daughter, HE'D not like it either (a good, non-violent answer to the problem)
2. punch him in the face
3. punch him in the face and then beat the shit out of him while he's crying on the ground...

if you don't take into consideration ALL available options, you'd fail to see the TRUE power of each option, and you will not be as ready to handle the situation should it turn toward violence, which you'd not originally considered.

If he were to then tell you "fuck off, you want to make something of it?", and PUSHED you, and you'd originally not considered an act of violence as a possible option, you could suddenly and- without thinking- react to his pushing with a return of violence or take too long in reacting to his violence, giving him an edge over you. You've now put yourself AND the person you're trying to protect into actual jeopardy. <i>Now</i> try to resolve it without violence.

In any situation, regardless of what facet of life you're talking about, you can never really master the art of negotiation and fully control your surroundings unless you consider every option available to you, and fully understand the benefits and risks of them.

That is why, in my opinion, saying "violence solves nothing", and immediately dismissing it, can only be a detriment to your decision-making skills, making you less effective than someone else.

Few people have friends like me. The thought of such has never deterred me from doing what I feel is necessary, but I DO consider the possibility- and the consequences of my decisions.

(wow, i CAN have a calm debate! lol )

XenuHubbard

I feel that revenge is usually pointless. I prefer confrontation. In your situation, it may have been wiser to actually talk to the guy.

As for violence never solving anything - in some occasions it actually does. But you have to make damn sure it is the last resort until you take that step. And not for the sake of revenge.

Sun Tzu - as for what you did, I don't see how it would help your lady friend. This whole ordeal was about her in the first place, right?

Your objective should have been to get him off her back from day one. Trying to hurt the guy because HE pissed YOU off, doesn't really make sense.

I'm not saying I would have been more mature about it, but I definetely wouldn't have done it the way you did it.

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Orodinn

That case is very different from the one I was criticizing you about. You were talking about using violence to get revenge on someone who would dare touch "your people".

Violence didn't solve anything. Let me get one thing clear. When I say "violence", I mean the destructive way to deal with things. I every situation, I believe there are 2 general paths you can choose: that of "construction" and that of "destruction". Destruction is always easier. Destruction gives you instant gratification at the expense of long term damages. This, I believe, applies to everything .

It's because I've considered the violent option that I'm having this debate with you. I did consider it and I've come to the same conclusion for every situation I've ever been in and most likely will ever be in in my life.

Now, Id like to get back to your example. You didn't make it very clear which option you thought was the best. I don't know if you meant punching him in the face was the best option so I'll wait for your reply. If you want, you can include another example in which you consider violence would be the best option and I'll try to debate it.