i can prove that it is impossible to do good - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

GakFace · 09-15-2003, 11:51 AM

Guys? Is it just me.. or Did Frogman stop responding to my Logic? I joined the debate, yet now he doesn't respond back. Did I say something that he can't argue back? I don't believe I've left this yet.. unless of course, I've finally proven you can't be 100%... which is all I needed to prove.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-15-2003, 12:14 PM

I think it is just that he finally realised that he can't prove what he said he could so he gave up as he should do.

motdakasha · 09-15-2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
fine i had time to sit and think over your proof over a glass of wine tonight. here goes
[...]
more later.

Listing quotes of people is hardly evidence. From a writer's standpoint, you need to clearly connect and relate these quotes to your point (thesis). You need to explain why the hell we should care about these quotes and how it proves your theory.

Also:
If you have only ever done good deeds for selfish reasons, that just makes you selfish. Not everyone. If you have done a good deed for a selfless reason, then you are evidence that your theory is flawed.

3leggedfrog · 09-15-2003, 09:01 PM

sorry been caught up in studying. man i thought i was taking it easy this semester. gahhh.

anyway. motdakasha got your point.

i wouldnt want to turn this in but for simple pleasure of this argument here is a really rough argument

lets start with Fredrich Nietzche

"what is harmful to me is harmful it self" Nietzche (beyound good and evil) states when he is talking about morality. "such morality is self glorifacation." i am leaving out a lot due to the time.

"Where the good begins.-- Where the poor power of the eye can no longer see the evil impulse as such because it has become too subtle, man posits the realm of goodness; and the feeling that we have now entered the realm of goodness excites all those impulses which had been threatened and limited by the evil impulses, like the feeling of security, of comfort, of benevolence. Hence, the duller the eye, the more extensive the good. Hence the eternal cheerfulness of the common people and of children. Hence the gloominess and grief - akin to a bad conscience - of the great thinkers." Nietzche http://www.pitt.edu/~wbcurry/nietzsche.html

on social contract by http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/s/soc-cont.htm

"...The foundation of Hobbes's theory is the view that humans are psychologically motivated by only selfish interests. Hobbes argued that, for purely selfish reasons, the agent is better off living in a world with moral rules than one without moral rules. Without moral rules, we are subject to the whims of other people's selfish interests."

freud's theories on PSYCHOANALYTIC approach to psychology.
http://www.expandmind.com/freud.htm

"Freud believed the unlearned biological instincts influenced the way people think, feel, and behave,( especially sexual and aggressive impulses conflicting with society’s demands) were the chief environmental contributions to our personality.

unlearned biological instincts are called desires.

this proves that i am not alone in thinking that good is just selfishness with a pleasing outcome.

can we know what makes other people do "good deeds"? we can infer from past behaviors of both that single person and all of humanity. this is how one predicts how another is going to react to a situation. we may never know why is B.S. yes we can by using our scientific techs, experence, and our rational mind. ex. why does a person have sex. 1) pleasure 2) procreation 3) companionship 4)power ect... why does a person do good deeds 1,2,3,4 ect. we can know why a person does a good deed by using our minds.

i am to burnt out to put this all together i can add a lot more philosophers and psychologist who think that good is just selfish desires. maybe later when i have more time.

*frog limps towards. his pond pulls his lily pad over him, and begins to snore. ribbet...ribbet...*

3leggedfrog · 09-15-2003, 09:13 PM

motdakasha
have you really ever done a true good deed? really think about it. think about all the reason why you did that good deed. from simple pleasure to self image. i am not saying that you have not. i am not attacking you. just asking you to evaluate all your good deeds. i have and its was a very hard truth to come to realize that all my acts are selfish in nature. to be selfish is to be alive. its not really bad nor is it good. it just it.

Booboo · 09-15-2003, 09:49 PM

When I give blood.. I do get a small sense of satisfaction after the deed is done. However, I do not give blood for that pleasure. I do it because it may save 3 lives. Not to mention my blood type is one that seems to be in high demand.

Going back to the definition thing... I think the possibility that I might save lives (good thing) outweighs the small sense of satisfaction (apparently bad thing) I get afterwards. To be selfish, an act must be done specifically for the (in this case) satisfaction or sense of pleasure. I do it to save lives.

Now I'm not saying that there might not be some people that do infact do it for that reason, as there are many egotistical people like that out there.

But...

It depends on the motivation. You are assuming that people will always do it for the selfish motivation. This is not true.

Quote:

ex. why does a person have sex. 1) pleasure 2) procreation 3) companionship 4)power ect... why does a person do good deeds 1,2,3,4 ect.

Again here... you leave out the possibility that they do these, just to do them. Even to do them simply to please someone else. I dont believe that there always has to be some secret hidden selfish motivation.

A lot of times I dont think about stuff I'm doing... just as an example I had to get fillings at the dentist. While he was drilling I found myself thinking about completely random things that had nothing to do with the dentist. I almost even forgot he was drilling. I dont know why but this is how I think about stuff. I never sit there and contemplate my actions or why I am doing something. After I do something I might be like, "Why the hell did I do that" but thats still after the fact and its something different anyways.

err I hope that last part made sense and you can see the relation I was trying to point out.

Tirian · 09-15-2003, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
motdakasha
have you really ever done a true good deed? really think about it. think about all the reason why you did that good deed. .

ok - for example...

I once picked up a hitchhiker and was giving him a lift along his way. As we neared my home (a log cabin along the Alaska highway) I realize that it is nearly dark. This hiker has told me along the way that he is hitching back to Alaska due to the fact that he was mugged earlier and robbed of all travel money.

I invited him in to my cabin, fed him, etc. Thought he'd have no luck hitching after dark, so gave him a blanket and the couch for the night. In the morning, I packed up what I could find for a lunch, and slipped in what cash I had in my pocket.

I've thought about this example a fair bit. I lived alone at the time. I had very little extra means. No-one knows about this deed. I have searched my soul and can say that I was concerned for this mans welfare. Not much more to it.

I've stated my motivation, but I'll allow the reader to judge for himself if this is a "good deed".

motdakasha · 09-15-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
motdakasha
have you really ever done a true good deed? really think about it.

Like I said, most deeds are somewhere in the gray area, but I think everyone has done (or will do) at least one good deed whether or not they know it. Someone I thought of as a good friend, despite the fact I had only met him once and we only communicated via internet, committed suicide on 10 September 2001. On 6 September 2001, he had written a suicide note to all of his friends on a particular site. He attempted suicide, but according to him, the thought of his friends from this particular online community was enough to make him rethink suicide. I was in that note, which consisted of "I love you" links to names of people. At the time, I wasn't aware of this note. I wasn't even aware that he was suicidal, but he was a good friend of mine. I care about him. The evening before he killed himself he thanked me for being his friend in a coded, roundabout way but I didn't realize it at the time. I was not aware of the importance of our friendship or that I mattered that much to anyone until I got a phone call from the east coast on 10 September.
So while friendship may not be something you call a good deed, I'm very certain it was "good" in the eyes of my friend, and to me as well. My friendship with him played a role in delaying his suicide which he was so set on committing. How can it be a selfish act if I wasn't even aware that my friendship had any impact on anyone?

johnnymysto · 09-16-2003, 04:09 AM

I know I argued before that it is possible to do a good deed, but I lied. I have seen the light of 3leggedfrog's logic, and I have come to the realization that I have never done a good deed. All the good I have ever done in my life was from selfish impulses that only served to line my wallet, promote me in my business, and increase my standing with everyone in the world. I thought that when I held the door for one of my co-workers that I was doing it selflessly. Well, turns out the entire company was on the other side of the door, and they cheered my name for 10 minutes afterward. So, I really did it for the praise of the people.

The other day, when I returned a wallet I found, I thought the deed would go in secret, but actually the residents of 6 apartment buildings were all looking out their windows at the same time, and threw confetti and roses on the ground at my feet. So once again, I did something for public accolades.

Yesterday, I swerved to miss a deer that surely would have been killed if I had struck it. Lo and behold, the heavens themselves opened and the Lord shone his countenance on me and bellowed "Well done, my good and faithful servant!" Another good deed done selfishly.

3leggedfrog is absolutely right.

3leggedfrog · 09-16-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tirian
ok - for example...

I once picked up a hitchhiker and was giving him a lift along his way...I've stated my motivation, but I'll allow the reader to judge for himself if this is a "good deed".

oh it is a good deed no doubt about it. but you were not really doing it for him but for yourself. this goes back to when someone dies in a car wrech. we ask questions like was he drinking, was he wearing a seat belt. ect. you did this act of kindness for your own sense of comfort and security. this is like a person is looking at handicapped person in a wheel chair. why does one stare at the person in a wheel chair. why does one look away.

motdakasha
ok why were you his friend. we know why he was yours. to him you gave him comfort to know that there were people out in the world that cared for him. you eased a unbearable pain that he was living thought at the moment even though the pain in the end was too much. that was his motivation to be your friend what was yours. what did your freindship consist of. why did he think you were one of his good friends.

johnnymysto all sarcasm aside yes all your actions were selfish in nature. you opened the door for coworkers most likely because one it was culture programing and two to insure that they have a continued self image of you as a "good" person. returning a wallet was also another self image promotion purely to your self that time. the deer well it could be you just wanted to avoid damage to your car or you did not want to cause pain to the deer. before you say ha a good deed. it was in reality you who you wanted to avoid causing pain. empathy is understanding and or feeling anothers pain. you knew what pain it would cause if you hit the deer. so by avoiding the deer you avoid the pain both you and it would have felt.

booboo giving blood was pure self imaging inhancement. a good person gives bloood. i gave blood. so i must be a good person.

motdakasha · 09-16-2003, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
motdakasha
ok why were you his friend.

I was his friend because he was an easy-going fun loveable person with an extremely magnetic personality. He was fun to talk to.

"that Supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others."
a) being his friend didn't advance any of my interests as he lived across the country and i only talked to him via a chatroom.
b) he did not advance my power in any way.
c) being his friend did give me happiness, but not irregardless of others. which means that selfishness is not what this friendship was based on even if it did turn out to make us both a little happier because of the fact that is was a mutual happiness.

You, sir, are a lost cause.

Booboo · 09-16-2003, 09:24 AM

once again..

\Self"ish*ness\, n. The quality or state of being selfish; Exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness; that Supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others.

Please read the defintion. EXCLUSIVE regard to ones own interest or happiness. Exclusive.. here are the definitons of it that apply here.

"Not accompanied by others; single or sole."
As in the single or sole motivation to do something... whereas it is not accompanied by any other motivational factors.

"Complete; undivided"
same thing

You would be telling me then, that the sole reason I gave blood was to improve my self image. This my friend, is not true.

The same thing can be applied to all of the other examples the others have given. Most of which are very good ones.

Cynthetiq · 09-16-2003, 09:29 AM

i'm still not convinced.... each example you tear apart.. you've not proven that there is no such thing as a good deed. again, I submit that it's easily substitute something like evil into your statements.

Booboo · 09-16-2003, 09:30 AM

Oh... if you acknowledged the fact that tirians deed was good... what is your argument. The topic of the thread is about the impossiblity to do good. Regardless of saying that he did the deed for himself, you said it was good. You are contradicting yourself here.

Unless you are changing your argument?

Quote:

You ,sir, are a lost cause.

/agree

Tirian · 09-16-2003, 09:55 AM

"you did this act of kindness for your own sense of comfort and security."

I'm not exactly sure what makes you able to presume my reasons, but I can tell you that lying in me bed knowing a complete stranger I just picked up on the highway earlier was in the next room did not exactly enhance my sense of comfort and security. At least not at the time. I admit to having scary "what if" kind of thoughts as I tried to drift off.

DownwardSpiral · 09-16-2003, 12:26 PM

Frog, question. You say that all good deeds are driven by the rewards the person will get from the deed right? Well, my question is how do you know what drove the person to do the good deed? That's just it, you don't really 100% know why a person did it. They just did. All you are doing Frog is quoting professional opinionaters, as I said you were before. Face it, you can't 100% prove that it is impossible to do good, maybe you should have thought of a better title for your thread, my friend, because as it stands now, you lied.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-16-2003, 12:31 PM

I honestly don't even know how this thread is still alive. It's always the same type of "proof" each time. As far as i'm concerned quoting "professional opinionaters" as downwardspiral calls them, is NOT proof.

DownwardSpiral · 09-16-2003, 12:34 PM

He does prove one thing Spacemonkey, that he dosen't think for himself and relies on the opinions of philosophers and hoping we'll give in to his logic.

raeanna74 · 09-16-2003, 05:00 PM

OK I have sat awake many a night (just as many parents have) rocking a small child who is ill. They will receive no accolaids from the child. The child could just as well sleep on their own until they woke from the discomfort. The parent stays there because they know they want the child to be comforted. They want the child to sleep better. Also they want to know when the child turns for worse if that happens. They are there awake even though they are tired because they simply care for and love the child. If they get praise that is an after thought. If they benefit in any way that is only post action/motivation. The primary, initial motive for staying up to rock an ill child to sleep is love. Selfishness has nothing to do with that. Selfishness would do what some terrible parents DO. That is lay the child in a crib, shut the doors, and pull a pillow over their own head to go to sleep.

DownwardSpiral · 09-16-2003, 05:17 PM

Good job, raeanna, you just proved a point. And that is that good, is indeed, possible. Thank you.

Xiangsu · 09-16-2003, 06:08 PM

"Once in a spirit of extreme selflessness, altruism, and generosity I filled a rental car with premium." Emo

Now that is a selfless deed right there.

LadyLanceALout · 09-16-2003, 10:27 PM

hmm... :-/

not only is "good" a very broadly defined word- which can mean different things to different people (thank you moelester...) but there seems to be some confusion over whether motive can cause an action to be "good" or "bad"....

i think the only thing we have proven here is that such questions are impossible to answer without some given assumptions... arrgh! :-p

LadyLanceALout · 09-16-2003, 10:32 PM

sigh... well what does it matter anyway? people are not good... so nothing a person can do would be all that good either... :-p

GakFace · 09-17-2003, 01:11 AM

I assume your jokeing about people not being good, right?

Mr. Spacemonkey: I'm still here, as I keep waiting for a response from Frogman. As of yet, he ignores my post. I find it funny, because its still defeat if you don't admit it.

Cynthetiq · 09-17-2003, 02:13 AM

reanna, since 3leggedfrog isn't here to respond at the moment (MIA) your actions can be construed as selfish for the propagation of the DNA....

damn... i don't do such a good impression of 3leggedfrog do I?

Marius1 · 09-17-2003, 02:45 AM

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the fact that an act is selfish negates the goodness of that act?

It might be argued that it somehow lessens it but how do they quantify that it completely cancels it?

raeanna74 · 09-17-2003, 07:17 AM

OH and propagation of the DNA would only be a potential end result of the example I gave earlier. A mother or father for that matter is not staying near their child to comfort it in an effort to preserve that child's DNA. If they only have a simple cold they'll likely survive sleeping in their bed as well as in the parents arms. Holding the child isn't for any purpose other than to comfort that child. The parents could just as easily juts go to check on the child periodically and still make sure the child doesn't get worse.

motdakasha · 09-17-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raeanna74
OH and propagation of the DNA would only be a potential end result of the example I gave earlier. A mother or father for that matter is not staying near their child to comfort it in an effort to preserve that child's DNA. If they only have a simple cold they'll likely survive sleeping in their bed as well as in the parents arms. Holding the child isn't for any purpose other than to comfort that child. The parents could just as easily juts go to check on the child periodically and still make sure the child doesn't get worse.

Children need comfort from their parents to to develop "normally." A child who can function in this world is a better guarantee that the parents' genes will continue. Think of the (poor) Rhesus monkeys.

"He discovered that an infant rhesus monkey will cling to a soft mannequin monkey rather than to a wire mannequin monkey even when the wire mannequin supplies the baby with milk."
"When an infant was clinging to its surrogate mother the scientists would eject the spines and the infant would be painfully pushed away from its 'mother'."
"Harlow then impregnated some of these socially and emotionally crippled monkeys. When their babies were born Harlow documented all the many ways they killed their own children."

legolas · 09-17-2003, 08:42 AM

Okay doing "good" is a very general thing and with all comes good and bad. If you want to get technical everything is bad *coughpessimistcough* but true good is just the feeling inside you get when you give a compliment or help someone needy.

09-15-2003, 11:51 AM	#121 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	Guys? Is it just me.. or Did Frogman stop responding to my Logic? I joined the debate, yet now he doesn't respond back. Did I say something that he can't argue back? I don't believe I've left this yet.. unless of course, I've finally proven you can't be 100%... which is all I needed to prove. __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

09-15-2003, 12:14 PM	#122 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	I think it is just that he finally realised that he can't prove what he said he could so he gave up as he should do. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-15-2003, 09:01 PM	#124 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	sorry been caught up in studying. man i thought i was taking it easy this semester. gahhh. anyway. motdakasha got your point. i wouldnt want to turn this in but for simple pleasure of this argument here is a really rough argument lets start with Fredrich Nietzche "what is harmful to me is harmful it self" Nietzche (beyound good and evil) states when he is talking about morality. "such morality is self glorifacation." i am leaving out a lot due to the time. "Where the good begins.-- Where the poor power of the eye can no longer see the evil impulse as such because it has become too subtle, man posits the realm of goodness; and the feeling that we have now entered the realm of goodness excites all those impulses which had been threatened and limited by the evil impulses, like the feeling of security, of comfort, of benevolence. Hence, the duller the eye, the more extensive the good. Hence the eternal cheerfulness of the common people and of children. Hence the gloominess and grief - akin to a bad conscience - of the great thinkers." Nietzche http://www.pitt.edu/~wbcurry/nietzsche.html on social contract by http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/s/soc-cont.htm "...The foundation of Hobbes's theory is the view that humans are psychologically motivated by only selfish interests. Hobbes argued that, for purely selfish reasons, the agent is better off living in a world with moral rules than one without moral rules. Without moral rules, we are subject to the whims of other people's selfish interests." freud's theories on PSYCHOANALYTIC approach to psychology. http://www.expandmind.com/freud.htm "Freud believed the unlearned biological instincts influenced the way people think, feel, and behave,( especially sexual and aggressive impulses conflicting with society’s demands) were the chief environmental contributions to our personality. unlearned biological instincts are called desires. this proves that i am not alone in thinking that good is just selfishness with a pleasing outcome. can we know what makes other people do "good deeds"? we can infer from past behaviors of both that single person and all of humanity. this is how one predicts how another is going to react to a situation. we may never know why is B.S. yes we can by using our scientific techs, experence, and our rational mind. ex. why does a person have sex. 1) pleasure 2) procreation 3) companionship 4)power ect... why does a person do good deeds 1,2,3,4 ect. we can know why a person does a good deed by using our minds. i am to burnt out to put this all together i can add a lot more philosophers and psychologist who think that good is just selfish desires. maybe later when i have more time. frog limps towards. his pond pulls his lily pad over him, and begins to snore. ribbet...ribbet... __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-15-2003, 09:13 PM	#125 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	motdakasha have you really ever done a true good deed? really think about it. think about all the reason why you did that good deed. from simple pleasure to self image. i am not saying that you have not. i am not attacking you. just asking you to evaluate all your good deeds. i have and its was a very hard truth to come to realize that all my acts are selfish in nature. to be selfish is to be alive. its not really bad nor is it good. it just it. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-16-2003, 04:09 AM	#129 (permalink)
johnnymysto Overreactor Location: South Ca'lina	I know I argued before that it is possible to do a good deed, but I lied. I have seen the light of 3leggedfrog's logic, and I have come to the realization that I have never done a good deed. All the good I have ever done in my life was from selfish impulses that only served to line my wallet, promote me in my business, and increase my standing with everyone in the world. I thought that when I held the door for one of my co-workers that I was doing it selflessly. Well, turns out the entire company was on the other side of the door, and they cheered my name for 10 minutes afterward. So, I really did it for the praise of the people. The other day, when I returned a wallet I found, I thought the deed would go in secret, but actually the residents of 6 apartment buildings were all looking out their windows at the same time, and threw confetti and roses on the ground at my feet. So once again, I did something for public accolades. Yesterday, I swerved to miss a deer that surely would have been killed if I had struck it. Lo and behold, the heavens themselves opened and the Lord shone his countenance on me and bellowed "Well done, my good and faithful servant!" Another good deed done selfishly. 3leggedfrog is absolutely right. __________________ "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa

09-16-2003, 09:24 AM	#132 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	once again.. \Self"ish*ness\, n. The quality or state of being selfish; Exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness; that Supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others. Please read the defintion. EXCLUSIVE regard to ones own interest or happiness. Exclusive.. here are the definitons of it that apply here. "Not accompanied by others; single or sole." As in the single or sole motivation to do something... whereas it is not accompanied by any other motivational factors. "Complete; undivided" same thing You would be telling me then, that the sole reason I gave blood was to improve my self image. This my friend, is not true. The same thing can be applied to all of the other examples the others have given. Most of which are very good ones. __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl

09-16-2003, 09:29 AM	#133 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	i'm still not convinced.... each example you tear apart.. you've not proven that there is no such thing as a good deed. again, I submit that it's easily substitute something like evil into your statements. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-16-2003, 09:55 AM	#135 (permalink)
Tirian Addict Location: Canada	"you did this act of kindness for your own sense of comfort and security." I'm not exactly sure what makes you able to presume my reasons, but I can tell you that lying in me bed knowing a complete stranger I just picked up on the highway earlier was in the next room did not exactly enhance my sense of comfort and security. At least not at the time. I admit to having scary "what if" kind of thoughts as I tried to drift off.

09-16-2003, 12:26 PM	#136 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	Frog, question. You say that all good deeds are driven by the rewards the person will get from the deed right? Well, my question is how do you know what drove the person to do the good deed? That's just it, you don't really 100% know why a person did it. They just did. All you are doing Frog is quoting professional opinionaters, as I said you were before. Face it, you can't 100% prove that it is impossible to do good, maybe you should have thought of a better title for your thread, my friend, because as it stands now, you lied. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-16-2003, 12:31 PM	#137 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	I honestly don't even know how this thread is still alive. It's always the same type of "proof" each time. As far as i'm concerned quoting "professional opinionaters" as downwardspiral calls them, is NOT proof. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-16-2003, 12:34 PM	#138 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	He does prove one thing Spacemonkey, that he dosen't think for himself and relies on the opinions of philosophers and hoping we'll give in to his logic. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-16-2003, 05:00 PM	#139 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	OK I have sat awake many a night (just as many parents have) rocking a small child who is ill. They will receive no accolaids from the child. The child could just as well sleep on their own until they woke from the discomfort. The parent stays there because they know they want the child to be comforted. They want the child to sleep better. Also they want to know when the child turns for worse if that happens. They are there awake even though they are tired because they simply care for and love the child. If they get praise that is an after thought. If they benefit in any way that is only post action/motivation. The primary, initial motive for staying up to rock an ill child to sleep is love. Selfishness has nothing to do with that. Selfishness would do what some terrible parents DO. That is lay the child in a crib, shut the doors, and pull a pillow over their own head to go to sleep. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

09-16-2003, 05:17 PM	#140 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	Good job, raeanna, you just proved a point. And that is that good, is indeed, possible. Thank you. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-16-2003, 06:08 PM	#141 (permalink)
Xiangsu Addict Location: Illinois	"Once in a spirit of extreme selflessness, altruism, and generosity I filled a rental car with premium." Emo Now that is a selfless deed right there.

09-16-2003, 10:27 PM	#142 (permalink)
LadyLanceALout Upright Location: California	hmm... :-/ not only is "good" a very broadly defined word- which can mean different things to different people (thank you moelester...) but there seems to be some confusion over whether motive can cause an action to be "good" or "bad".... i think the only thing we have proven here is that such questions are impossible to answer without some given assumptions... arrgh! :-p

09-16-2003, 10:32 PM	#143 (permalink)
LadyLanceALout Upright Location: California	sigh... well what does it matter anyway? people are not good... so nothing a person can do would be all that good either... :-p

09-17-2003, 01:11 AM	#144 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	I assume your jokeing about people not being good, right? Mr. Spacemonkey: I'm still here, as I keep waiting for a response from Frogman. As of yet, he ignores my post. I find it funny, because its still defeat if you don't admit it. __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

09-17-2003, 02:13 AM	#145 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	reanna, since 3leggedfrog isn't here to respond at the moment (MIA) your actions can be construed as selfish for the propagation of the DNA.... damn... i don't do such a good impression of 3leggedfrog do I? __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-17-2003, 02:45 AM	#146 (permalink)
Marius1 Loser Location: Wales	I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the fact that an act is selfish negates the goodness of that act? It might be argued that it somehow lessens it but how do they quantify that it completely cancels it?

09-17-2003, 07:17 AM	#147 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	OH and propagation of the DNA would only be a potential end result of the example I gave earlier. A mother or father for that matter is not staying near their child to comfort it in an effort to preserve that child's DNA. If they only have a simple cold they'll likely survive sleeping in their bed as well as in the parents arms. Holding the child isn't for any purpose other than to comfort that child. The parents could just as easily juts go to check on the child periodically and still make sure the child doesn't get worse. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

09-17-2003, 08:42 AM	#149 (permalink)
legolas shit faced cockmaster Location: CT	Okay doing "good" is a very general thing and with all comes good and bad. If you want to get technical everything is bad coughpessimistcough but true good is just the feeling inside you get when you give a compliment or help someone needy. __________________ "To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."