FoolThemAll

No kidding. I'm glad we don't have a problem with propaganda up here.

Jesus.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Glory's Sun

I really need to start using my sarcasm tag more.

I see more lunatics waving amerikan flags than anything else.

Idyllic

Can you see my American Flag....... It's waving. (Why misspell America, what that says to me is just plan disrespect, are you American?)

I would like to think people who come to America would like to be American, share your history, but grasp your present. If you really are so proud of the national flag you wave, then wave it in that nation, be proud to be an American.....

I am an American Patriot, say what you will, I am damn proud of my country, warts and all.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

mixedmedia

I would like to think that Americans are secure enough in their patriotism that someone showing another flag to them doesn't completely whack them out of shape. So much so that the folks that apparently want to get the government out of out lives and off our backs, would like to micromanage the behavior of others who happen to be fond of where they came from. Based purely on their own narrow idea of what is pro-American and anti-American.

No one on this thread has yet explain how it is that displaying another country's flag equates with a lack of appreciation for this one.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Glory's Sun

Oh.. so you just blindly support your countrie's actions and call it patriotism? That's not patriotism, that's patronizing the blind and power hungry who sit back and laugh at the poor, the hungry and the tired.. I see all these idiots at these so called "tea parties" who wave the American flag, use the word patriotism 4 times a sentence, and continually down anyone who is not a part of their cause. The videos I've seen show such a lack of knowledge of the country they supposedly love and support that they should be glad that immigrants are here. Legal immigrants probably know more about this country than 75% of those people. This is the AmeriKa that I speak of. Call me disrespectful if you will, but look at the hand that feeds you. It's dirty, corrupt and wipes the mouth that lies with malicious intent.

You're suggesting that people should forget the pride they have for their homeland just because they now reside in a America. What is so horrible about a person waving an iraqi, iranian, puerto rican, mexican, chinese, etc etc etc flag in this country?

Yes, I am American. How is misspelling Amerika disrespectful? It's well within my rights as an American to misspell it if I want. So while you may think that your blind support and pride of your country "warts and all" is more patriotic than someone else, I say it's less patriotic because it does nothing to enact change for the betterment of the country.

MM has a very valid question and point. How does someone displaying a flag of another country in a different country equate to hatred or lack of love for the country they now reside in?


occupied minds
unemployed skills
desolation
worn out
torn down
just for now thrill seekers
slanging
test tube babies in beakers
where gun blasts pump straight from the speakers
the system where the
poor get poorly paid
to hold the ladder
where the rich get ricocheted
into the stratosphere
and in between people are rushin' like vladimir
with metals to make their status clear
get us out of here

we need heroes
build them
don't put your fist up
fill them
Fight with our hopes and our hearts and our hands
we're the architects of our last stand (Flobots-Fight with Tools)

dlish

well said gucci and MM

within the same context, my love of australia isnt in any way reduced because of my love for my roots and the country of my parents. in fact my appreciation for both has grown since i decided to reside outside of both.

And while there are other ways of managing issues as a result of immigration, scare mongering will only work on those already converted.

The way i see it, just because im pro [insert non western country here] it doesnt make me anti [insert western country here]

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Idyllic

Blindy support??? huh, I said I was proud of my country, warts and all.

I am proud of my son, he has made many mistakes so far and has his warts, I am still proud of him. He does many things I do not approve of, and has done many things that have totally made me wonder, did they change kids at birth, then I remember how retched I was and think how terribly retched his dad must have been (his mom confirms), yet I am still proud of my son and his father because they have both grown and are growing each day and I see them growing even more everyday, all this love and yet, I still support no b.s., and I am not blind to much.

I see America doing this also, trying and trying to grow but unpatriotic people just seem to hold us back, not only themselves, but the young impressionable who read unpatriotic bs, and the slurs against the U.S. and think bad of their own country…… America is a cohesive unit of multicultural glue that creates a mosaic of beauty so amazing as to glow like a beacon on a mountain top, it is filled like a Christmas tree with ornaments of every country, and I am proud to hang among these branches.

How does my Patriotism amount to me being ok with irresponsible behavior at all?

Guccilvr, if you are an American, then the hand that fed you, your mother and your fathers, maybe they were American to, and maybe they were fed by their either American parents or people who came to America, did they vote, and if they did, do you think they tried to make the best decisions they could for not only themselves but for you, for us their kids, and aren’t we all trying to do the same for our kids. I have to say the one greatest thing faith has given me is appreciation for the people of my past who have made my present possible so I may create a better future to be proud of for my children and I intend to do just that. I hope one day my childrens children still have the right to voice their opinions about their country just as you do, I just hope their voice is more optimistic and patriotic.

I said, “share your past,” I would love to know what ingredients went into this great melting pot, but grasp the present, the gift that America offers each human, and that most apparently came here looking for. Yes, these gifts are also found in other countries. I am getting tired of having to try to not to invoke the wrong thoughts from my posts, how you can get, I am blinded to wrong by my pride in my country is indicative of some pretty scarred history to me and I apologize for the pain you have suffered at the hand of bigots, they are wrong, but I am not one of them. Again, I am not always happy with the way my country behaves, but I a damn proud to be a part of it, yes warts and all.

Well said dlish. I'll second that.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

LordEden

I think we lost what the real meaning of the work "patriotism" was along time ago. The spin media got a hold of it and used it as a platform for hate-mongering. The America of today could never truly grasp the morals and ideas that the America of the 1700's held so high that they would fight their mother country to uphold. Having pride in where you were born and believing that you reside in the greatest country in the world is not a bad thing. Using that love to hate others for moving here, having pride in their own country, or even not being "true" to the country they live in is what got us in this shithole to begin with. What was once considered a great and noble thing has now become the platform to keep everyone not a "true American" out of a country that only 100 years ago was called "the melting pot" of the free world.

When did people forget that that our ancestors MOVED here over the last 500 years? When did people forget that starving, homeless, poor immigrants moved here looking for a better life under a different flag? When did America forget that German, Italian, English, African (not always of their own choice), Spanish, Mexican, Swedish, Chinese, and other immigrants moved here because they couldn't claim that they "owned" a piece of land in the world. They saw this uninhabited country just across the ocean with unlimited possibilities for someone willing to spill their sweat and blood into a wilderness ready to be carved into a home they could raise food, livestock, and a family on. When did people forget this? That was your Great-Great-Great-Grandfather who traveled on a over-populated ship (with hardly any food) for months at end just to make it here to pursue a dream that you deny to the same kind of people just 300 years later? What right do you have to say, "My ancestors moved here looking for a better life, but you need to get the fuck out of my country, it's MINE now."?

You may own property in the United States of America, but you don't own America. Get over yourself. I"d like to see some of these "patriots" and "Tea-Partiers" go back to the generation that brought them to this country and say, "You fucking foreigners are coming over here, messing up our infrastructure, our health-care, and taking our jobs! No one wants you here!"

The hard right punch of a man who's hands worked, tilled, dug, and carved out a living in foreign country on a hard patch of barren earth would be sweet justice incarnate.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Glory's Sun

Idyllic: Please.. please define what makes a person unpatriotic. Do you assume that I am unpatriotic because I don't wave my flag every day or because I say unflattering things about this country and the issues that it faces? If you don't assume that, I'd still REALLY like to hear your definition of unpatriotic.

Eden: amen brotha. amen.

Idyllic

guccilvr, say something good about your country, something you truly believe is great and worthy and something you think the younger generation needs to hear so they can understand how proud you are of your country even when your don't necessarily agree with it politically.

---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

I don't see your name here, I believe someone who is truly unpatriotic would not live here to begin with, hopefully, and I would look at someone who would wish to see the downfall of our country as an unpatriotic person, I am sure you don't wish that.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Glory's Sun

huh?

I asked for a definition of unpatriotic since you said "I hope one day my children's children still have the right to voice their opinions about their country just as you do, I just hope their voice is more optimistic and patriotic." which explicitly implies that I am somehow unpatriotic.

So I guess that since I am voicing an opinion in here that is not in agreement to yours I am now labeled as unpatriotic. This has suddenly turned back into ameriKa. True america does not exist and will never exist. The utopia is dead.

There are good and great things that this country has done, but that does not mean that we should as a people turn a blind eye to the horrible things that it has and currently is engaged in. To do so does nothing but rob the people of their voice and without a voice, there is no power.

edit to edit: so, the only definition to unpatriotic is someone who wishes the downfall of America? Hmm.. I'm betting those people are seen as patriots in certain circles. There has to be more to a patriot and an unpatriotic person than that.

LordEden

Refresh my US History 101 a bit, but wasn't our country founded on the right to criticize the government and make a single person's voice heard no matter what the statement? Are you saying that Gucci doesn't have his 1st amendment rights because he doesn't agree with you? I may not agree with what Gucci says (I argue with him a lot), but I'm not going to tell him he HAS to say something so he agrees with me.

QFT.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Idyllic

I said "I hope their voices are MORE optimistic and patriotic" and just to voice your opinion about this issue says to some degree you care. guccilver, do not give me so much credit as to change your love of your country, even though the "utopia" was never alive to begin with. My edit was adding altogether, no trap set.

Yes, to me the basic definition of an unpatriotic person would be someone who wishes to see their country fail, and acts on it.

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

I didn't say don't criticize the government, on the contrary, that is exactly who you should criticize. I said don't criticize the country, for not all those who live within it believe in absolutely everything the government says, but to love it's people as collectively we do try our best to progress positively not only for ourselves but for our world. ("our" as a human here, not specifically as an America.)

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Glory's Sun

So the tea party participators who wish to see Obama fail are bigots and are not as patriotic as they seem? say it isn't so!!

I do not wish to see ANY country fail. I certainly do not wish to see my country fail. I would however like to see my country use the collective brain power and ingenuity to do something other than murder, rape and pillage. This doesn't mean I don't support the troops who are doing their duties, it means I do not support the people who plan this course of action with no just reasoning.

I wish to see a country in which people can embrace the melting pot and not push for a "true america" just because some display countries flags that are not the American variety and for the country to get over itself for once.

Idyllic

This all falls back on the beginning of this thread, James is a bigot, pure and simple, is he a bigot because he is truly xenophobic or does he feel it better defines his constituents, I don’t think so, but, we shall find out via vote (personally, I hope he gets 1 vote, his dads).

I just think as Americans we should try not to separate our people by terms that don’t politically define us and that in turn become derogatory when they typically are just stating location, regardless from what state or n,s,e,w you come from, you ARE an American. If someone is acting like a bigot, call them one, but don’t define their location as such just because of them, they don’t deserve that power or that credit and it hurts those who reside in those areas so very much, both personally and externally, as the youth read these statements and perpetuate ignorant stereotypes.

Obama is not our country; his is a representation of it, voted into office by more that half of its people, but not all. If someone wishes for his failure, that’s not unpatriotic, if it is the entire country they wish to see fail, then yes, they are unpatriotic.

I have no intent of "getting over myself" when it comes to vocalizing just how proud of my country I am. I believe the Melting Pot IS "True America".

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Shadowex3

And again, just because he's a xenophobic moron to the Nth degree doesn't mean he can't also be on to a good idea with making English the official language.

The only difference between him and some of the people in this thread is that where he is voluntarily ignorant about other races some people in this thread are just as deliberately ignorant about their opposition's arguments when it's convenient to them to make that person appear bigoted. He purposefully assumes the worst about other races intentions even when it's convoluted and illogical, some of us purposefully assume the worst about our opposition's stance even when it's convoluted and illogical.

Foreign nationals move to the country and some bad eggs in a few places (hold on to this thought) become in his mind the entirety of the group, even though that's off the wall and ridiculous, and then he takes a good idea and perverts it with lunacy. I complain about having to deal with many of those bad eggs, particularly when they get together and a near-riot is started in the street by a whole bunch of people smugly waving another country's flag while demanding more from our country and suddenly I'm an ignorant bigot who can't stand people who integrate but respect their heritage despite having multiple other flags myself.

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Baraka_Guru

But that's not his idea. His idea is to get rid of tests in languages that aren't in English.

Canada has two official languages: English and French, also known as "official bilingualism." All this means is that for purposes of state and law, English and French are used. So in terms of the courts and the administration of Canadian governments, we use those two languages. However, this does not mean other languages aren't used in official capacities.

Consider this bit from Ontario's DriveTest site:
Don't for a minute think this is about making English official for the sake of eliminating all other forms of communication in certain matters of the public. He made it clear what he wants to do.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

I tend to remember the event that started a lot of flag waving from another country. And that was the actions of a foolish old man who decided to crawl up the flagpole of an American citizen's business and rip down the Mexican flag that was flying there. The man who was later touted as a hero among the rabble-rousers of the right.

There is a definite good guy-bad guy scenario that's going on underneath this controversy and it has nothing to do with being patriotic and everything to do with the acceptability of being intolerant. There are those in this country who would like to make it so and millions follow along blindly saying 'yes.' People who have less credit to take for where this country is than the man in the moon yet somehow feel proud to be an American. On good days it turns my stomach.

I love this country, but it's not because of the millions of people around the globe who have suffered to keep me safe and comfortable, but because of the people here who still see. And there are many. Anyone who doesn't see and appreciate what they have without shooting out platitudes about how great this country is I, personally, have very little respect for. It was done in your name, for your sake. Wake the fuck up.

---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------

For instance, how would you live day to day if you knew you stole an election from another entire country to 'keep your child safe?' Or at least, living in the manner you've been accustomed to? It's documented. It's American history.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

WinchesterAA

I hear you on this one, but I'd like you ask you...

If your child was in danger, what would you not do to protect it?

Of course, that is a different matter entirely, for the majority of political children are just as safe and secure as anyone else.

so, "What dangers are imposed on a controller's child by switching from a world famous private school to the run of the mill public school?"

Perhaps it is necessary to rephrase -

If you were in a position of political power, and had dealt with on many occasions -- the dimwitted rantings of the constituents, why would you NOT ruin their lives to save your own?

I'm saying, when you're at the top, and you're looking down at the masses, and you realize that most of them have never had an original thought in the last 20 years, what stops you from forgetting about their concerns?

Surely it must be similar to staring at dogs in a kennel, or any other animal that cannot speak.

"Woo, you're angry are ya, little rugrat! *YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP* Here you go, have some pocket lint."

Face it.. We're not all equal.

Ourcrazymodern?

This is indisputable, but not one of our ideals.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

dippin

As I said before, making English the official language doesn't do what you think it does.

And you've yet to define when it is ok to have and wave another country's flag and when it isn't.

mixedmedia

I'm not quite sure what sort of comparison you are trying to make. Are you saying that the people in countries where we have engaged in 'political meddling' are like yapping dogs without the capacity for original thought? You've lost me.

I don't want to take the discussion further off course, though. Just suffice it so say that,
1. I can 'love' my country without having to trust my country.
2. Protecting life and protecting a way of life are two very different things. So different that they can be diametrically opposed.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Shadowex3

Are you blind or just deliberately not reading my post? Because there's absolutely no way to not see it in a 3 paragraph post short of deliberately not reading it or just openly trolling.

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dippin

This is the second time you've used this sort of reply in this thread. Why not simply explicitly say what you want to say?

Shadowex3

Because I've been explicit both times and after going practically play-by-play rephrasing it I can't possibly think of a way to be more explicit than literally describing the exact physical actions someone took that pissed me off.

I'm sorry but I don't know how to possibly be more explicit without embedding a youtube video which I sadly don't have because I didn't own a cellphone at the time.

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spindles

For the record, racist nutjobs aren't limited to the southern states of the US. Our most famous one was Pauline Hanson.

Pauline Hanson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How this woman ever made it into the Federal Senate is beyond me, but there you go.

__________________
who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

SecretMethod70

Yeah, spindles, from what I've read over here it seems like Australia can give the US a run for its money in crazies

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

dlish

just last week after deciding to leave austraia and live in the UK Pauline Hanson put her house up for sale with the condition that it not be sold to immigrants or muslims.

she caused such an uproar that she pulled the property before the real estate agents could.

apparently crazies are on both sides of the fence.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

DDDDave

'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.'











Theodore Roosevelt 1907

__________________
I am just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe...

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined." - Thoreau

"Nothing great was ever accomplished without enthusiasm" - Emerson

Jinn

Thank you for a reminder of how far we've come since 1907.

All I know about patriotism I learned from Modern Warfare 2:

"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles."

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. " - Mark Twain

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Jetée

No, thank you for the textual intellectual quotes. As soon as the second page rolled over in this discussion, I think the point was lost by a significant degree.

You also gave me a free topical pass to post this example of Patriotism, and its definitions:

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Baraka_Guru

Wow, I didn't know Roosevelt was so British-like.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Good thing we don't have Corsican Syndrome or I'd be on the floor screaming right now.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

SecretMethod70

Gotta love Emma Goldman. Thanks Jetée.

Roosevelt's statement only works if we've declared English to be the official language of the country. It is not, and it never has been. It's absolutely impossible to claim that speaking English is a necessary part of being American without such a law.

We can debate about whether or not English should be the official language (it shouldn't, and this has been recognized for the entirety of American history), but until it is there is absolutely no debate at all that immigrants should not be discriminated against because of the language they speak. Over time, immigrants naturally assimilate into the culture while adding their own influence (this is the very definition of the melting pot). We don't need to pass laws to impose this process.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Baraka_Guru

Well I think this comes down to the sentiment in Alabama (of this gubernatorial candidate, and, perhaps, of many Alabamans). Maybe they don't want people coming there who haven't mastered the English language enough to deal with things of an officious nature...you know, where things are quite serious and have serious consequences.

I don't think this is about road signs, because road signs are largely visual and contain rudimentary English words, and few phrases. The tests are in other languages because they are verbose and contain questions referring to one's knowledge of the rules of the road. Considering a driver probably thinks about the rules of the road in their native tongue, I think it would make sense to have these tests available for their own comfort with respect to the knowledge and being able to communicate/understand it. To assume these same people "don't know English" is to be a bit naive, I think. I would assume myself that very few don't know enough English to get by in most situations. Again, these tests are more about comfort levels in being able to communicate what you know, not whether you understand the English enough to make your way through the streets.

But if Alabama is that opposed to other languages, then I suppose it's their prerogative to want to pare things down to English, and perhaps a monoculture. Immigrants would then be more encouraged to seek other, more accepting states elsewhere, and it is these states that will benefit from the influx of talent, culture, knowledge, and experience being imported into the country. Alabama can become a backwater akin to Third World countries notorious for being ignorant and closing off outsiders.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

warrrreagl

I've always been taught that everyone already accepted this as fact.

__________________
Living is easy with eyes closed.

Baraka_Guru

I didn't want to go there.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Idyllic

^^Well, BG, you did anyway "Alabama can become a backwater akin to Third World countries notorious for being ignorant and closing off outsiders" don't you mean specifically individuals who side with James' thinking, because I'm sure not all Alabamans feel the way he does..... I still think we should wait to see if this seemingly narrow minded bigot is voted in by the people of Alabama before we start labeling them all as such.

This is all about sensationalism and attention anyway (outside of James' ignorance), just ask Fred Davis, it's working perfectly as he planned.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Baraka_Guru

Not exactly. If people like James does what he does in a position of power, it affects the entire state, regardless of those who disagree with him.

Consider how there are liberals in both Iran and China. What good does that do for each nation?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

warrrreagl

Pardon me for a minute, y'all. I need to put my water pitcher on my head and run down to the creek. I'll be right back.

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Living is easy with eyes closed.