snowy

I'm down for that, mixedmedia and Baraka.

I'm from an immigrant family--I'm a first generation American on my father's side of the family. He immigrated here as a child with his family and grew up speaking mostly Dutch at home. My grandfather worked in the hotel industry and had already learned English back in the Netherlands at hotel school. My grandmother had a much more difficult time of it, and it wasn't until my father had a sympathetic teacher in early elementary school that my grandmother was able to receive some extra language instruction. The teacher took it upon herself to teach my dad and grandmother English. This is, of course, well before the development of English Language Learner programs. My dad was basically expected to sink or swim when it came to learning the language, and that is the prevailing attitude still when it comes to teaching adults how to speak English.

Learning a new language as an adult is difficult, certainly not as easy as it is when we are children. There are distinct sensitive periods for language development. Optimally, everyone would learn a foreign language before the age of 12 (when neuronal pruning really starts taking off). However, we live in the United States where people are seemingly afraid of foreign language, which strikes me as bizarre in an increasingly globalized world.

The point is, we need to offer adult English Language Learners appropriate support and help them to learn English. My grandfather had already learned English before he came here, and so it was easy for him to assimilate. He learned English during a time in his life where language learning was easy, and hotel school structured language lessons so that he not only learned English, but he was fluent in French and German as well, and had a working knowledge of Spanish and Italian. That isn't uncommon in Europe--almost all of my Dutch cousins speak 5 languages. But for my grandmother, who hadn't learned English and who initially didn't have support learning it, it was much more difficult, and a good teacher made all the difference in her ability to learn and master the language of her new country.

We shouldn't expect people to learn English if we're not offering them any help in learning it. I have the utmost sympathy for English Language Learners of all ages, given all the stories I've heard from my own family. This country was built on the backs of immigrants, and statements like the one in the OP do nothing but spit in the eye of all the immigrants who worked hard to make this country what it is, regardless of what language they spoke.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Grancey

This comment is how I have always known this family to be. People I know that I have talked to about this situation don't support James at all. I would be really surprised if he got elected, but I don't know what the rest of the people in this state are thinking. I will let you know what happens. He did succeed in getting a lot of attention with this ad.

There is a very, very slight undercurrent of southern bashing going on in this thread, but that's ok. I knew the thread would probably take off in different directions . It's a good discussion. I don't take offense. I'm not even offended at being referred to as a "southern gentleman". Last time I checked I was definitely female.

__________________
Quiet, mild-mannered souls might just turn out to be roaring lions of two-fisted cool.

Baraka_Guru

I'm pretty sure mixedmedia was referring to Tim James.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

uncle phil

like the old german gentleman said: "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action..."

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Baraka_Guru

It's quite appalling overall. His platform isn't all that bad otherwise. It's just that he seems to want to stick it to the immigrants, gays, and pro-choicers, not to mention the non-religious.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

DaveOrion

me twy to spel rite, sory. ain't got much book learnin.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Glory's Sun

umm...

ok.

mixedmedia

That would be correct.
Sorry about that, Grancey. I know who you are.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Shadowex3

I have the utmost respect for anyone genuinely TRYING to learn english and I'll go quite a bit out of my way to meet them half way on things they're having difficulty with, considering my family did it I'd be a tool to do otherwise.

My problem is that living in Florida I am constantly dealing with people who not only go out of their way to avoid english while working in jobs where they absolutely need it, but also who smugly wave another country's flag in my face while doing so. What race they are and which flag and language it is don't matter to me, it's that they're doing it to begin with that I have a problem with.

__________________

SecretMethod70

shadowex: Minus the language part, you've described behavior that's exhibited even by immigrant groups that have been here for some time. A number of my family members have or have had flag medallions on their cars. You know what flag I've never seen as one of those medallions? The American flag. The Italian flag, however, was on every single one of them. In one particular case where my uncle married a woman from Mexico, it was joined by the Mexican flag. For reference, my family came over about 100 years ago. These aren't even recent immigrants exhibiting this behaviour. Or you can go to certain communities in the Chicago area where you'll see a bunch of Polish flags, not American flags, and people who speak primarily polish. The bank Onodrim works at has signs in Polish to better serve those customers. Or, uh, certain areas of the south where you'll mainly see Confederate flags It's all over.

Guess what: you live in a multicultural country. It's time to get over it.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

DaveOrion

Yea, they're just funnin.
me twy to spel rite, sory. ain't got much book learnin.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Glory's Sun

Wow. Good job Dave. Way to take things out of context.

DaveOrion

Tried to edit that mess some what, I was only joking just as I was about using The_Dunedan's quote as a sig.

Lighten Up Dude

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Dusk

You think that's embarassing? I have to get my postcount up to 15 tonight so I can finally post images in my thread tonight about recreational drugs!

DaveOrion

Does your thread involve http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...divinorum.html ?

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Dusk

No, cannabis. Is it anything like Salvia?

I'm curious about how drugs work - I was never satisfied with the explanations I received in my earlier days. Not a big fan of being some kind of fanboy for a plant, but I'm earnestly interested in learning about them considering I'll be applying to study chemistry/biology @ University in the very near-term. I don't want to make an overly clinical approach to the subject as a person who has never actually experienced any of the experiences he sets out to document and learn about, hence the entire curiosity thing. I'm also not interested in becoming dependent. However, I am interested in their potential applications.

Part of me already knows the answer to all of this, if you know what I mean. Anyway - just say no to thread-jacking.

Glory's Sun

I hear a train.

mixedmedia

It seems apparent that it is all a matter of perception. I live in Florida, as well. 20+ years in the Orlando area and close to a year now in SW FL. Meaning that I have encountered most likely tens of thousands of immigrants in my life. I can't ever remember a time when their inability to speak my language or the display of their home flag on their car or clothing felt like a personal affront.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

WinchesterAA

'


That is absolutely right. These things have happened, now it is time to deal with it..

Best thing to do is be aware of what you're up against.

snowy

Yeah, we have a Dutch flag that we hang, and I've been meaning to order my Oranje jersey before the World Cup starts.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Shadowex3

I've got an Israeli and Finnish flag in my room right now, and that's no more what I was talking about than what you describe. Don't be disingenuous, it doesn't suit you.

__________________

Plan9

This thread makes me think of this one quote:

I was under the impression that, based on the get-yer-citizenship process, changing your allegiance from your former country and adopting the United States as your new home is part of being a good citizen in the United States.

Some people don't like that homework attached to that. And some people can't even change allegiance.

Seems that we, of the world, are citizens on paper, not in action.

...

Also:

It's really sad the only mention of "patriotism" today is that present when crazy white guys in camo give doomsday speeches.

How did patriot become synonymous with extremist nutjob?

/rambling

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

mixedmedia

How is someone hanging a Puerto Rican flag on their rear view mirror, for instance, evidence that they don't have an allegiance to this country?

Patriotism is a word that people are free to interpret in their own way. Including Kenny Powers whoever the hell he is.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Plan9

Are you being serious? Okay, I'll assume you are: It isn't. That wasn't my point. I was just rambling about mindset.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

mixedmedia

oh, ok. nevermind.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Plan9

Yeah, I mean... there are plenty of useless dipshits that have American Flag stickers on their bumpers.

In some parts of the country? That's how you pick 'em out.

...

Economic segregation has really destroyed civic activity.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

DaveOrion

How might one feel if a muslim was seen driving a VW bus with the Iranian flag covering the side?

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

SecretMethod70

Uh, just about the same as I'd feel for any other flag. I'm sure your scenario could be found in LA, the Iranian expat capital of the world. Oddly, LA doesn't have a serious terrorism problem. Go figure.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

uncle phil

we really need to have a few drinks together, buddy...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Plan9

Turns out the United States doesn't have a serious terrorism problem.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

DaveOrion

Would you agree with the opinions expressed here?

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

dlish

that's because most of the people outside of iran have left because they do not support the current government. the vast majority are quite liberal in their political and religious views. I see that a lot here too.

daveorion - im glad to see that you think that muslims and iranians are synonymous enough that you think all muslims support iran and its looney ideas. FYI Iranians make about possibly 5% of the worlds muslim population.

And for the record i wouldnt be caught dead with an iranian flag.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

DaveOrion

dlish: I have no idea how you came to such a conclusion based on my post. I simply asked how "anyone" would feel if they saw this. My own opinion is conspicuously absent.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

SecretMethod70

That's part of my point, though I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me.

Flags mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The Iranian flag is not limited to displays of support for Ayatollah Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

dippin

So why don't you actually spell out what you are talking about, and tell which flags you don't want to see, or what being "waved in your face" means?

There is some serious beating around the bush and baiting going on in this thread (and this isn't aimed solely at you). Why don't we actually say what we want to say?

dlish

you're right. i misread your post. i should stop reading TFP at 4am.


smeth, not disagreeing with you at all.

however, the current iranian flag represents the views of the iranian regime since the 1979 revolution, but not necessarily the views of ahmadinejad.

more can be read here about the history of the iranian flag. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Iran

i personally had an australian and a lebanese flag in my office.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

mixedmedia

we're getting way off track here now.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

DaveOrion

I think we should return to the recreational drug discussion.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

mixedmedia

Just for the record, you must have been editing your post when I replied to you. I hate it when you do that.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce