snowy

I've been around here a long time, and I agree with Jazz. I've never seen the staff do something without a good reason for it. Generally, if they take action, there is an obvious violation of the guidelines.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

LoganSnake

What if a one liner is an appropriate response to the original post?

Q. I'm depressed. What do I do?

A. See a counselor (as TFP collective would advice).

Would that be unacceptable?

NOTE: Of course, this is taking into consideration that the administration would even allow a one sentence OP. Let's assume I summarized it.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Shadowex3

And as little as that is arbitrary and capricious it is, in my opinion, even less hardcore. I'd call that basic moderation against spamposts. Maybe I'm too used to stricter forums but that sounds to me more like a routine discouragement of contentless posting rather than some sort of digital crackdown deserving of the title of "hardcore moderation".

When someone calls for hardcore moderation personally I'd expect the term to refer to something, yknow, extreme.

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Hektore

Well, I don't see a problem with that and I don't think anyone else would either. I'm thinking replies along the lines of:

A. Do a line of coke out off hooker's ass.

Followed by:

A. Make sure you kill her and shove her in the trunk then.

Followed by:

A. Make sure you bang her before you put her in the trunk, but not before you kill her.

Not that it isn't funny or won't actually make the person feel better (it could). But I didn't think that's quite what we're about here at the TFP.

+1

//edit: I realize not everything is here is so clear cut. Shades of grey and all that. Maybe some gentle reminders are in order more often to cut down on that sort of thing.

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The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Plan9

Oh yeah, this is a good point. For those of us who've been here for a hot weekend, that kinda thing has really lost its charm. Certain individuals who constantly post such types of lame comments have no value in the community in my eyes. If they can't push out a pearl of wisdom for every dozen turds, what's the point of letting them hang around? Because they've always been here? I'm not a genius, but I'd imagine TFP is just as susceptible to cronyism as any other "higher learning institution" on the Web. You can be an asshole all you want, but if you're not a useful asshole... then there is no point to allowing you to occupy inches in what could be great threads. I'm cool with that kind of hardcore moderation: Occasional Content or GTFO.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Jazz

Shadowex3, I don't think you've been here long enough to have enough perspective on what does or doesn't happen at the TFP. Not that you can't easily fix that and revisit the question later, but comparing us to other places and trying interpret those rules for this space seems ... unfair. I'm really not interesting in what you think does or does not qualify as "hardcore moderation" since it's my role to take my own definition and make it a reality.

And Hektore, your point about us not being perfect is well-timed and well-taken.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Shadowex3

Good for you, and technically me too since that's not remotely what I'm doing. I don't know why you're trying so very hard to make this out as though I'm trying to do something I'm not.

All I've said is that your idea of "hardcore" moderation doesn't sound remotely deserving of a title that makes it sound like some kind of iSharia for TFP, it sounds more like routine moderation to stop spam. I mentioned other forums purely as an example of what DOES deserve such an ominous titling, not out of some kind of subtle attempt to demean TFP.

Someone mentioned bringing "hardcore" moderation, someone else said they weren't sure what the first person meant by "hardcore", I made a half-serious half-tongue in cheek suggestion of what "hardcore" could mean, You said what you ACTUALLY plan to do, I said I think it sounds like a completely sane and reasonable course of action. How does any of that translate to my having joined only 3 years ago compared to your 7, and how is making unfair comparisons?

Just calm down and accept the compliment on your sanity and reasonability, that's all it was.

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Manic_Skafe

One line comment.

(edit: molest me with your yellow text, I dare you)

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"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Cynthetiq

Thanks for the compliment.

I don't think it's a personal issue, but I do think that we're trying to beat the rafters and get more people like you to stop lurking and start participating at a mature and discussable level. It's hard to have a discussion with someone who just sits off to the side and never says anything but just watches.

When the TB used to be here, it was from time to time we had to turn it off so that people would actually say hello. We don't have that choice anymore since it is now it's own site. Thus, we've got to find ways to encourage people to participate. Lowering the bar I find tends to get people to come out of their shell but the discussions are shallow. Raising the bar, makes it a bit harder, but positing thoughtful responses is the hope to challenge someone to include their own thoughts and press submit.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Hektore

Hrm, I meant that edit to go with the top half of that post, not the bottom half. I can see how in it's current format it reads quite differently. I honestly think the staff here does a quite good job on their own, without reminders from the peons. I have never observed a mod or admin (or owner for that matter) to be arbitrary or capricious (at least with the enforcement of rules).

What I meant was gentle reminders to the members (PMs) when they repeatedly leave a crappy post that threatens to derail a thread to let them know they need to add some substantive content once in a while to their (not so) clever quips.

Plan9: Exactly.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Plan9

Well, I'm confused. What kind of audience are we catering to these days? As you said, the "Just Boobs" crowd has its own little whack shack now, insulated from the intellectual side of TFP. If said intellectual side "lowers the bar" to stimulate conversation and draw out those that don't have enough "balls" to post on an anonymous web forum, is that really the kind of content that we want or is it meant to be some type of switch-a-roo trap?

I don't think you can sucker people in with bouncing boob .gifs and TheJazz's fart jokes and then expect them to put out a brilliant discourse on the fundamentals of family financial planning and how to deal with marital problems that stem from having three screaming children and a profound lack of blowjobs. I don't think having a giant crowd of lurkers is a problem nor does it require some type of remedy. Some people will just be passive.

...

I'm thinking TFP needs more fliers and stickers in the real world and less moderation craziness as it is discussed in this thread.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cynthetiq

I'm sure that there are always going to be a percentage of people that are passive, just like there are always wallflowers at the dance. I'd like to believe that by getting someone involved at a level different than their normal can be some great stimulation. So thus, non-participatory to participatory and finding that people don't think you're stupid for posting your opinion, or someone already posted something close to what you want to say gives everyone a platform and a stake within the community.

We didn't sucker anyone, people came for the boobs and stayed for the discussion. Now we don't have boobs, new arrivals, what do they see? what's the attraction? Yes, Jazz's fart jokes, one liners. What else?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Shadowex3

If you accept the premise that the current situation with TEZ is similar to Overclocked ReMix's actions with their "unmod" forum then I would say the problem is that you're trying to split things where they oughtn't be split. Having Tez right here is a bit like having a permanent onboard freakshow but it also greatly increases the chances that someone will see what else is here and get active in other parts of the forum.

Splitting the two leaves a few people like me that will probably go to both regularly but seperately while polarizing each side further away from each other. Most people who desire stimulating intellectual conversations will try to do it in person, most people who desire to watch women do things with various orifices that even Leviticus never thought of will do so online. Those two groups of people overlap more than the first would ever be willing to admit although admittedly less than the last brags of.

My point, rambling and sleep deprived as it is, is that ya'll should at least preserve offsite links to and from TEZ and TPF whereupon various passersby can... passby... the airlock of offsite links between dual handed anal fisting and the duality of fisticuffs in the mind of the anal retentative. And yes I did just say ya'll, anal fisting, and whereupon in the same sentence, I'm as suprised as you are.

Now the usual hazing may commence. I'll get back to everyone who wishes to tell me I'm too new/crazy/delusional to know what I'm talking about tomorrow when I'm capable of remembering that TF2 doesn't have parachutes and Battlefield 2 doesn't have broadswords.

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Cynthetiq

That probably will be the way it draws itself out, since the communities are somewhat symbiotic. It just won't be on the front page for unregistered people to see. From the analytics tho, quite honestly, not many people go from here to there that are part of the discussions.

When we removed the link temporarily, the searches for the TB shot up and the names that followed those searches were not recognizable to your every day poster. There are some that I had to look up to see when they registered and just how many times they've posted. Some posted less than 10 times since 2003. I'm not sure that that level of lurking or participation qualifies as being an active member aside from just having logged on or even just clicked a bookmarked link that had "remember me" checked off. Little to no effort. Why should I be so concerned about such folks? What is the benefit? What is the loss?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ourcrazymodern?

re-evolving with the tfp:

memory is like compost:
all new input can help build the pile,
thus tfp is working.

I'm really happy constant content isn't required, for obvious reasons, but a concise two cents often strikes me as more useful & thought-provoking than reams of data. My thanks to the staff for your patience & support.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Psycho Dad

I think I may have invoked a negative connotation for some when I mention "hard core moderation" I wasn't implying that there be some Draconian moderation system implemented, but a return to sorting what was going to be a worthwhile and on topic discussion of some of the board's more sensitive and intimate subjects.

I once lobbied to let posts that the moderation staff felt not worthy to stay be kept open because if they were in fact not worth keeping they would die on their own. As it turns out I was wrong and those posts have been fodder for more or less bullshit piling on of the OP at some times. Seems the "PM a moderator and explain why the post should be reopened" policy was not a bad one.

I've been on other boards that I've shit all over. However I am as apt to attend a Nickelback concert as I am a ballet. But I'm not going to attend The Sleeping Beauty and act and dress the same way I would at a Seether concert. I've always seen this board having different standards and my conduct should be appropriate.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

Daniel_

I find it interesting that in a thread that asks people to avoid one line responses, there are a number of unmoderated one line responses - some by staff.

<second line to avoid hypocrisy>

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Shauk

ok now that there is some baseline discussion taking place I might actually have something to add.

"content" is a nebulous word, vague, endless, yet still fitting in the sizzling pan, like runny eggs at the mercy of a moderators spatula.

I write nonsense, I consider myself a content writer, I'm sure some people disagree. I mostly write game/movie reviews with little regard to if it's actually creating content here or not, I do it because I feel like it. Ask me my opinion of Dante's Inferno, FFXIII, WoW, or a myriad of other games, I'll have some learned words to rattle off about it. Ask me about politics, I'll unleash a barrage of bitterness at how fucked the system is. Ask me about boobies? Actually, no, don't I'll probably just go on and on about how much I miss Jennaboo4u posting here

Do people think that some dude who has an opinion about some things, and not others = content?

*shrug*

I wouldn't worry about it. The thing is, the word moderation is self defining in a way. I've seen forums overmoderated in to extinction, and others undermoderated to the point that spam & or flame wars marred the "reputable" forum look forever.

That said, moderators also stand to get bored when nobody is stirring up shit and breaking rules. So sometimes they have to make more rules or face the fear that the community doesn't need them, and become marginalized.

My personal opinion is that a one liner isn't going to hurt anyone or kill the flow of a conversation, I'm perfectly capable of reading it in 0.5 seconds, rolling my eyes, and moving on to the next post.

Besides, Succinct delivery is far more memorable in the long run than the wordy wendys.

I can't remember a single one of Host's posts about his various stances on politics.

but I can tell you right now.

Ustwo's "new pussy" is immortal.

Cynthetiq

Always has to be someone to be the smart ass in the classroom right?

If I end it there, it's the kind of one liner that doesn't further the discussion, which is just a zinger and that's it. What's the point because it's funny? It's fun?

Here's the issue Daniel, if we moderate we're too heavy handed. If we don't, it's we're being hypocritical and not caring. How do we strike the balance? More than likely by applying common sense appropriately.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

cj2112

If TFP wasn't funny and fun at least some of the time, it would die.

Stop trying to please everybody. There will always be somebody who isn't happy no matter how hard you try. TFP cannot be the perfect forum for every person, there is no one size fits all. I enjoy it here, however it's not for everybody. I know many people who would find it's rules too stuffy. I think they provide a good balance between chaos and order.

I understand traffic is down, really I do. How do people find TFP, where do most of our newer members come from? If we want to increase traffic, people have to find out we exist, they need to know why they should spend their forum time here rather than one of the other bajillion boards just like this one. We are really not that unique when it comes to what we provide, so we need to look at increasing traffic the same way any business would look at increasing sales. How do we get more customers through the door?

Cynthetiq

cj, thanks for that reminder both for fun and trying to please everyone.

I'm not trying to please everyone. I'm trying to make sure that we're even and appropriate if and when we do moderate someone's post. One of the discussions the staff is having is how to moderate positively since most see and understand moderating as a negative thing. I was just editing my post when you quoted it, but that's where common sense should come into play. You don't fart and joke around at a funeral since it's generally not appropriate.

I can't do traffic by myself, neither can the staff, so I've asked the community for help in a post in Members Playground.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

cj2112

I think TFP does moderation fairly well. Nobody likes having their posts edited/removed, especially when things are already a bit heated. I do however agree that it never hurts to look in the mirror and give oneself an honest appraisal.

I saw the post in Members Playground. I think that content is just one part (albeit a very important part) of the picture. I'll ask again, how do potential members even know we exist? I did a google search using the terms "General Discussion Forum" and came up w/ 128,000,000 results. This what I mean by us not being all that unique. I like to think we do what we do better than most, but if people don't know we exist, how does more content help?

LoganSnake

The membership is pulp. The forums is orange juice. Given the current state of membership, the pulp is currently simmering at the bottom with a few fibers floating around the top. What Cynthetic wants to do is take a big-ass spoon and mix it all together so that there is more perceived activity.

As cj pointed out, the problem is exposure. No matter how hard you try to mix the pulp, the orange juice is still inside the glass.

----------------------------------------------------

I am one of those people who is not a fan of what moderation used to be like. I didn't post much because there was that ever present feeling that if I didn't post a War and Peace sized post, then it would be deleted or warned or otherwise moderated in whatever fashion. I visit the forum to shoot the shit. Shooting the shit, to me, does not always mean writing full thought out sentences and paragraph long posts.

Discussion is good, but not when it's forced. It felt forced. Right now it doesn't, but it also doesn't sit well with certain people. Understandable, given the direction this forum will try to go in, but as it has been pointed out - you can't please everyone. It will alienate more than a few people.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Cynthetiq

People don't find us by searching for General Discussion Forum. They find us by very specific thread content. Whatever topic that person is searching for be it CosPlay, DHS, Ziegfield girls, etc.


ziegfeld girls - Google Search

This search we're on the first page. This is how we've been getting traffic.

Jetee's Cosplay thread, it got picked up by Kotaku.com, it netted us some traffic. I'm not sure new users, but we are still getting lots of referrals from that initial post.

LS, I don't know why people continue to have the impression that there is a requirement write up a huge post or response. Again, common sense, there's no reason for a dissertation in the Entertainment threads, when a "I can't wait!" or "OMFG that's so cool!" is sufficient.

The statements I have made do not or are not intended for that. Look here, you've posted several times, and I've responded, look, there's a discussion!

I'm not trying to stir the pot to change perception. I can easily change perception without doing that. I've already taken such measures. If no one creates discussions, what will be discussed? Whatever form those discussions take, the staff needs to adjust to some degree.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Shadowex3

People take things too literally on the internet sometimes. Sometimes because they want to be an ass, sometimes because they're trying (successfully or not) to provide lulz, and sometimes because they genuinely don't get it. I think the issue of one-liners is one that nobody is ever going to define, it's a No True Scotsman type issue. In any HEALTHY discussion there's always going to be a few of them, and some of them will probably be good and some will be bad.


When it comes down to it "You'll know it when you see it" is the only real way to define good and bad low-wordcount posts. If I'm in a thread and post a factual one-liner that clarifies and enlightens but I've got nothing else to say so I end it there it's obviously still a worthy post. If I'm in a thread and I get a few laughs but give no real content... it's probably not a worthy post. Or what if I say something with a lot of good points but it just has a low wordcount because I'm very succinct?

Can you objectively define any that beforehand? Not really since any real post probably includes elements of all three. An argument over these kinds of posts just won't ever end. The closest you can get is whether a post contributes in some meaningful way to the current thread of discussion. If it does provide genuine content in some way, or if it just takes up threadspace.

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Daniel_

Yep, and it's often me.

Being funny and being fun are a key part of what TFP is about.

My point was that you cannot weigh quality. A short post can be pithy and apposite, on target and help further the discussion - a post like "have you considered it might be X" can steer something a way that helps it along, whilst at the same time another post could be full of verbiage and bluster but simply be re-stating items that had been covered above.

Having a standard of QUALITY is far more useful than having a standard of QUANTITY, but is also more subjective. Subjectivity sadly can become a popularity contest, and I have no idea how you resolve that.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Cynthetiq

I think everyone here can agree with the above. Of course it should be fun and the quality of the communication is most important.

I honestly think that it is not what I'm talking about. It doesn't happen often our community does not run roughshod like others. In fact, we've probably paid it more attention than it should be due. I think what not a single one of us can agree upon is where and when zingers and snark are appropriate because as Jazz has said before, sometimes they have broken the stalemate of the conversation.

I'd like to thank each and every one of you that is engaged in this conversation. It's a bit frustrating to me when I sit in my head and try to figure it out, but it's not my job to do it alone, that's why this is a community.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Xerxys

True but in the form that you have put it in. You see, I will forever remember the particular line I have quoted but will completely not appreciate fortune cookie phrases that mean nothing in place of advice. Elaboration is always good.

---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

ring

My kindred spirit speaks wise volumes. ^^^

I told a very shy, cute youngish man librarian about TFP..today.

That is a leap outside my hermitage zone.

As far as the overly boisterous young pups voicing incessant (look at me, hear me, love me.....noises,)
they eventually settle down after a few well-meant chomps to the neck.

Welcome to society.