dlish

is the synagogue a male dominated place of worship? or are women welcomed and on equal standing?

can women becomes rabbis?

how does the heirachy work? is there a clergy set up like christiandom?

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Xazy

In synagogue both men and women are equally welcome, men have more of an obligation to pray at synagogue then women (women are on a higher spiritual level then men, and have different obligation then men). Since there is no 'erev' in my community and I have a baby, my wife stays home, and if she had wanted to go to synagogue I would go to early morning services then my wife would go to the one right after.

First off to define a Rabbi is someone who passes a test, has 'x' amount of knowledge, and there is different types of tests, meaning different degree of knowledge. Orthodox Jews only the men become Rabbi's, and study some of these things.

We have no real official hierarchy. Chasidim have their Grand Rabbi who they follow for every question they have. But there is no official pope or anything like that. But there are Rabbi's whose brilliance shine that they become the person who everyone comes to for questions. An example was Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt'l.

Now 'Priest' in Judaism, is the group from the tribe of Levi (one of the 12 sons of Jacob), who did the work int he temple. They still have a special part in services, and a special role, but that is very different from a Rabbi.

dlish

intersting to see the similarities between islam and judaism with the obligation for men to pray at the place of worship.

i think levite mentioned that within an erev you can push a stroller and other such things. is carrying a baby on a sabbath considered work and thus not allowed?

now that you mention it, so what is the difference between a priest and a rabbi? apart from what you mentioned. are they considered in the same way that the shiites hold the 'ahl al bayt' or 'family of the house' which is the lineage of muhammad in higher esteem than other people?

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loquitur

A rabbi is a scholar and legal expert. A priest has (actually had, because we have no temple anymore, so no venue for priests to do stuff) assigned tasks in the temple, mainly related to sacrifices, i.e. it's been 2000 years since they actually could perform their role. The only special thing they do now is bless the congregation on holidays. Priesthood is hereditary, rabbinate is not.

Xazy

With an eruv I can push a stroller or carry my daughter. But carrying outside is not allowed on Shabbos without an eruv, and while a lot of places have one, there is more often then not an erev. Also please note an Erev is very technical to make and very often requires using a lot of less stringent rules for use, so a lot of people may be more strict upon themselves and not use an erev at all unless they MUST.

When you have a religeous question, you ask a Rabbi. Basically they must have 'x' amount of knowledge as I mentioned before. And there are some Rabbi who may lead a synagogue, and some who may be the big Rabbi of an entire town. Some may study a single topic and be an expert on it, that other Rabbi's when they have a question will go to him. In my community we have 2 Rabbi's who people from all over the world call with the most intricate questions, concerning everything including pulling the plug, medical questions abortion etc...

A priest (KOHEN) role is to help be an inter-mediator in the time of the temple between us and G-d for bringing sacrifices, etc... They still give blessings to the congregation on the holiday services (everyday in Israel), but they are not a Rabbi as far as knowladge goes, and being able to answer questions. Of course a Kohen can study be a Rabbi, and answer questions and there have been numerous Great Rabbi's through history who were Kohen as well.

dlish

thanks..this is a great thread

i have another one i've always wondered about...

loquitor touched on this earlier on the subject of hell. ive read that judaism doesnt have the concept of hell in the old testament, and as such there is no afterlife. could you please elaborate a little more on this?

its quite the opposite of christianity and islam where we have a heaven and a hell

---------- Post added at 06:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 AM ----------

the muslim day actually starts from sunset the day before. is this also the case in judaism?

if this is the case, then the sabbath starts at sunset on the friday evening?

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Xazy

We do believe in an afterlife, as well as Messiah coming and people coming back then. we do not believe exactly in hell, for the most part consider hell going through a washing machine, where it cleans and removes the sins you have done. And trust me hell does not sound like a fun place from the little of it I have learned about. Where or what you get in afterlife is based on your life now, and so just because you are cleaned of sin does not mean you go to the VIP room of heaven.

Just saw your second part of the question, Muslim is added on top of the Torah, (so is Christianity so someone one day will explain why they do not do this), and we hold the day starts with sunset. So Friday night - Saturday night is Shabbos.

If you look in the beginning of the bible, in Breishis (genesis), it says וַיְהִי עֶרֶב וַיְהִי בֹקֶר יוֹם אֶחָד "it was evening it was morning one day"

guy44

Not really, and sort of but not really. Frum generally refers to the orthodox or ultra-orthodox, and as you have seen there are many other denominations (reform, conservative, modern orthodox, etc.).

From my understanding, the Christian Reformation was about "reforming" the Church. In Judaism there is no longer a centralized established authority like the Catholic Church was in the 16th century, so it isn't possible to seek to reform one. However, many of the more modern movements (reform and conservative come to mind) were very much efforts to "modernize" or "reform" Judaism. They were about marrying the ideals and beliefs of the times (the 19th and 20th centuries) to Judaism and this can look kind of like how Protestantism branched off of the Church. Obviously, the reform movement is named after this process.

Levite and others correct me if I'm off base, but this is my understanding.

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levite

So, guy44's answer to this was in essence right, I'd just like to flesh it out a little more. There is no irrevocable split in Judaism. If I were Protestant from birth, and wished to become Catholic, I would have to convert, and be re-baptized according to Catholic doctrines, and so forth. The same holds true for joining most Eastern Orthodox churches. As far as I know, a number of Protestant sects would also demand conversion of some kind, even if only a profession and baptism. The fact that one began as a Christian and ends up as a Christian wouldn't matter. However, although there are considerable differences of opinion amongst the movements in Judaism, one thing everyone agrees on is that if your mother was Jewish, you're a Jew. (As I mentioned above, the Reform movement now holds the same for your father, but nobody else does, and the Reform movement also holds matrilineal descent as well as patrilineal.) Everyone would also agree that one is Jewish if one converts, although the Reform movement, and the fringe movements to the left of it, are fairly lax on what constitutes a legal conversion. But if my mother were Jewish, or if I had an Orthodox conversion, everyone in the Jewish world would agree that I was a Jew: I could move from movement to movement, abandon movements altogether, even renounce my Judaism, and by Jewish law I would still be Jewish, and I would never be required to undergo a second conversion or any other rites of passage or transference. In that sense, there is still a unity to the Jewish People that Christianity has simply never had.

That said, the divisions among us are not insubstantial, and in many ways they are growing. The left wing of Reform Judaism is growing progressively leftward, and the right wing of Reform Judaism is small. Orthodoxy is growing ever more zealous and strict in its interpretations of the law, shutting more and more doors to the non-Orthodox. And the actions of the Reform movement over the past 30 years in declaring patrilineal descent, combined with their laissez-faire attitude about intermarriage, is slowly but surely creating a situation that those of us in the Conservative and Modern Orthodox movements never wanted to see, in that soon, if a Reform youth wishes to marry a Conservative or Modern Orthodox youth, a check will likely have to be made into their parentage, since we traditional movements can no longer trust the Reform movement that their members and children are all Jewish according to the traditional halakhah. And that is a very sad sign.

But even that is a separation based not on purposeful action, but on a huge mistake that the Reform movement seems unable to take back, and their simple negligence when it comes to confronting intermarriage. It's passive, it's nothing like Luther's decisive rejection of the church at Worms.

The roots of Reform Judaism, in the 19th century-- the Reform movement was the first non-Orthodox movement, and in numbers still dominates the smaller Conservative movement, which appeared at the turn of the 20th century-- were deeply Enlightenment, arising out of a desire to turn Europe's emancipation of its long-oppressed Jewish populace into impetus for creating a modern, culturally polished, secularly accepted Judaism. The movement began in Germany, and thus the roots of Reform liturgy, synagogue etiquette, prayer aesthetics, customs of daily practice and deportment, etc., are all consciously pattered after German Reformed Lutheranism of the 19th Century.

In no small measure, the tendency of Orthodoxy in Europe over the past 200 years, and in America over the past 60-odd years, to become increasingly strict, rigid, and closed-off, is the reaction to the rise, dramatic increase, and prospering of Reform Judaism. The fact that, in modern America, there is also the issue of secular assimilationism, only adds to the effect. Each side has been pushing the other, and we may yet see an actual breaking in the next 50-100 years. It is extremely disquieting.

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 PM ----------

Xazy's answer is, to my mind, a good Orthodox answer. Speaking as a non-Orthodox Jew, the synagogue has traditionally been a relatively male-dominated place. Women have traditionally been compelled to sit in a separate section, usually either in a balcony, or behind a screen or wall in the back.

Some Modern Orthodox synagogues run the separation down the middle, creating a vertical separation rather than a horizontal. And some use slightly smaller screens, or substitue curtains.

The seating in non-Orthodox synagogues is mixed.

According to Orthodox interpretations of halakhah, a woman is not obligated to say many of the key prayers, or to perform many key ritual acts, and therefore, she cannot be a public prayer leader. She cannot receive the honor of being called to the Torah, to have the reader read a portion of the text on her behalf, as men are called to the Torah to have portions of the text read by the reader on their behalf. Nor can she chant from the Torah or Books of the Prophets, or other sacred texts, publicly and aloud, since the traditional Orthodox belief is that women's voices are sexually arousing, and therefore improper to hear in song. They may not wear tallitot (prayer shawls) or tefillin (phylacteries: kind of ritual talismans. They're complicated to explain. Ask separately if you like, or look up). And the tradition in Orthodoxy has been that women do not receive rabbinic ordination, although there is a Modern Orthodox institution in Israel that has begun training women for ordination, and there is a yeshiva (rabbinical college) in New York that is debating whether or not to begin ordaining women.

In non-Orthodox congregations, women may do all of the above, and all non-Orthodox movements ordain women to be rabbis, and train them to be cantors.

Some Sefardi or Mizrahi communities, while technically Orthodox, have been traditionally much looser in their interpretations of the restrictions on women, and in those communities women have sometimes been granted some of these rights and duties. And there have occasionally been wise women in ancient Ashkenazi history who have done some of these things.


Xazy answered this one pretty well. I would add that even when there are prominent rabbis in the community to whom many turn for advice, dissension is traditionally very tolerated. There is a strong, strong tradition in halakhah that dissent and disagreement is respected, tolerated, and expected as normal. Thus, not only is there-- as Xazy pointed out-- no hierarchy at all, there is even less than a Christian might expect, since the halakhah has traditionally presumed that different rabbis will hold different positions from one another, and that is okay.

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Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Sticky

This same tendency also brought about the advent of modern Orthodxy whic did not exist 50 years ago.
Modern Orthodoxy follows all the same halachot (torah and rabinical laws) as orthodoxy but has a way of looking at things as though you are a Jew that is living as part of the world at large. The idea is not to insulate yourselves in your community and that insulation is inherently your protection against the influences of the outside world. The idea is that you make yourself strong by sticking to the halachot and at the same time living and interacting with the rest of the world. These people, while often live in a more Jewish area becuase of the need to be in walking distance of a shul (synagogue) and mikvah (ritual bath), do not exclude themselves from the community at large. They work at the same jobs that non-Jews work at (doctors, lawyers, business owners, employees). They go to movies. Listen to secular and religious music. Play sports. Read all books. Essentially, they are just like any regular person yet they also strictly keep to halachot.
My point was that that levite is right that a widening rift came about as the right moved farther over to the right and the left in reaction moved to the left but Modern Orthodoxy and Conservatism moved in to fill that gap.
The gap is still there in that the Jew way on the right can't (or doesn't or chooses not to) indentify with the Jew on the left but the middle is not an empty hole.
Modern Orthodox jews are the ones that you see wearing the smaller knit, leather or felt kippas (yarmulkas) all the time.

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Xazy

It is not so simple. Since Orthodox is more stringent then reform or conservative I would not be so ready to eat in someone house who does not adhere to Kosher (even if it is outside their house). While there is always a few who make others look bad, most Orthodox Jews do not believe you are less Jewish if you are reform or conservative (we may not believe you follow the rules), however it is not my place to judge another, and how would I know where I would be if our shoes were reverse.

Orthodox is growing stricter in many ways due to technology and invasion of society in to the culture. From billboards to television, internet, or just how people dress. Torah teaches women to dress modesty, how sex is for a man and his wife, a wife is to look sexy for him and not others. In a world where models and how women are viewed, how they dress (I live in NYC) just going to the store, the mall, sexuality totally invades our daily life. I do feel strongly that alot of this does affect marriages, and to a degree is responsible for divorces. But this is what the Jewish community is up against. Hasiddic communities like New Square, Satmer, they close their people off, to keep that all out, since to do otherwise you expose your community to things that religiously disagree with. I do not disagree with what they do.

I consider myself Orthodox, some may call me Modern Orthodox, I do my best to follow the Torah do I see tv, movies, yes. I cannot disagree with people more strict then me, but as when I do run in to one of the few (and I know the few stand out more since they are more vocal) who judge others for not following as they do "I may learn grow, become more strict, and if you want to show me something I will listen, but it is not our palce to judge anyone."

Also alot of Orthodox, who are more to the right, still interact and work in regular jobs, and commute. I know a Hasiddic doctor who is the head of peds, one who is a cop, etc... I do not think that only 'modern' orthodox play sports, work in regular jobs, or live in a regular community. Modern orthodox, you will find have a tv, go to movies, and the music. And while I have those, now that I have a child, I question the full need of a tv (trust me I am a tv addict like everyone else, but I have yet to find one show I would want my daughter to see), I just do not feel it is right to even mention to my wife.

julie0187

THANK YOU!!!! I dont think I will ever understand that.

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Sticky

You are right. It was not fair to keep it as simple as I described.
The two points I was really trying to get across were:
- Orthodoxy while was getting stricter and the left were moving farther to the left, the gap between did not remain empty.
- Most of the stricter (or right) of the orthodox groups insulate themselves with physical barriers (geography) to try to protect the influences from the outside world while modern orthodox takes a different approach.

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Meditrina

This thread has clearly awakened my interest in learning about my Jewish heritage. There is a lot to read and I have not read through it all yet, but I will. My question is more on a personal level, I think. I was raised in a non-practicing Jewish home, I never went to Hebrew school and I know very little about the Jewish religion. I married a non-practicing Catholic, converted and had my children baptized. Looking back, I realize that was not the path I should have taken. I am feeling a pull back to my family and my Jewish heritage but I still know nothing. I'd like to learn and be able to teach my children. Where do I start? Is there a book you can recommend? Would I still be accepted into the Jewish faith now that I am legally separated from my husband, would I have to convert back?

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Xazy

Of course you are welcome. 3hwew are a lot of organizations, books places where you can go to learn for yourself and your children. Also if you are under 26 go to birth right it is a free trip to Israel where you can experience Israel for youurself. I am writing this on a cell, so keeping it short, but I will message you later, and if you let me know where you are located can help you find local organizations

But simpy you, your children, family are more then welcome to explore it takes just a desire to explore and learn and I can help you find out information. Again I will try to reply more later wheb I am not on a cell keyboard

Halx

How does one Jew view another Jew who interprets the faith differently?

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Xazy

Not sure how different you mean is it a question of halacha (jewish law), reform view orthodox or vice versa. Personally I view people as people and let 6-d do the judging, but I am not sure how you are defining 'faith', and many people react different.

Halx

Well I see it like this: Hassidim, Orthodox, Casual... they're all "Jewish" but they have different ways to worship. Traditions, behaviors, clothing, etc. If you consider yourself part of one sect, how do you feel about people in other sects? Are they doing it wrong? Are you holy and they not? Do the casual Jews think the orthodox jews are crazy masochists for adding all this extra crap to their lives in order to worship? Do the orthodox Jews look at everyone else and go, "Well, the thought was nice, but they're missing a lot and god favors us because we're the straight-A students?"

In order words: If there wasn't a "right" way or a "wrong" way, then what is the purpose of going about all this worship in the first place?

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Xazy

I can only talk about orthodox view, how I was raised.


There is a part in the talmud that talks about someone who died (a big Rabbi to keep it simple), and came back, his father asked him what did you see and he replied "what was up was down and what was down was up."

To expound on it is this those some who were 'righteous' were not and some who were thought to be sinners was righteous. And to expound a little basically people are not judged by G-d on their action, but their actions based on their situation. Who am I to say if I was in someone else shoes how well I would do, and if that person was given my opportunities.

If you were to ask me on practice of a group overall, I do think that you have to keep kosher, but if you do or do not that is your choice. Do I feel on shabbos you can not turn off lights, drive to synagogue, cook, etc... I do, but again if you do or do not that is your choice. I will give a law, for instance that some 'sect' how you define say it is acceptable, but Orthodox will point out and quote it from the Torah "Homosexuality is an abomination", I do not take that as a fluid thing, it is written in ink and parchment. Again you can do as you wish it is not our place to judge, but I can never say on the topic that I agree with people who say it is allowed.

Xazy

Meditrina, here is a good book if you are interested in reading, it is .

levite

I'm not sure there's any one single answer to this question, Hal.

Xazy's answer was excellent, and true, in that it represents the legitimate feelings of an Orthodox Jew who is also, as far as I can tell, a major-league mensch (Yiddish slang for a decent, good person). But this is something for which there is no universal doctrine, and each Jew will judge others as s/he will. I have heard similar sentiments from others, and heard much less tolerance in other cases, from any number of places on the spectrum of movements.

That said, while I do think that there are some (vocal) people on the left and on the right who just don't get where the other is coming from, and seem perfectly willing to write off (respectively) the Orthodox as all fanatical zealot ascetics, or the Reform and Reconstructionists as traitorous secularist maniacs, or the next best thing to apostates, I think most of us don't judge each other too hastily.

Part of why there is not as much mutual condemnation as there might be-- though still way more than there should be-- is that at least in theory, we are taught to be respectful of the opinions of others regarding halakhah and practice. It is deeply ingrained in our tradition.

For example, just this morning, I was telling my 9th grade class a famous story from the Mishnah (the older part of the Talmud, dating from the first two centuries CE), wherein there was a difference of opinion between the great first-century sages Hillel and Shammai, who were the chief of the Sanhedrin and the prince or president of the Jewish People in Israel at that time. The difference in what was the correct interpretation of a certain matter in halakhah grew so heated between them that the whole people were split. And at that point, a Heavenly Voice was heard, and it said, "These, and those also, are the words of the Living God. But the halakhah in this matter is according to Hillel's interpretation." And why was Hillel's opinion deemed worthy, the Mishnah asks? Because he taught his students to understand Shammai's opinion as well as his own, and even explained Shammai's opinion before he taught his own, comes the answer. From this story, we teach two things: first, that we must honor and respect differences of opinion as being both natural and potentially holy; second, that our respect for different opinions must not prevent us from picking an opinion to side with, and going with that choice.

We try-- although it seems these days we often fail-- to always remember teachings like that, and to respect the ways that other Jews make halakhic decisions and choices of practice that are not like ours, because they have the right, and none of us can be certain of having a monopoly on interpreting the words of Heaven. In my experience, most Jews I know are reluctant to do more than talk some shit about those they disagree with. Actual confrontation is comparatively rare, and public insults or hate speech, though sadly not unknown, are not predominate in our inter-denominational discourses, though I don't pretend the polite relations are always friendly.

Unlike Xazy, I have met many Orthodox folks who are quite vigorously condemnatory of anyone not Orthodox, and in no uncertain terms. And, I must confess, also some Reform, Reconstructionist, and fringe lefties who anathemize Orthodoxy pretty wholly. I wish it weren't so, and I don't count any such among my friends, but I have seen it, and seen it more often that I've wished....

And, BTW, to answer your final question, the reason to do it, even if there is no one right or one wrong way, is because God has asked us to do our best, and we (we are taught) wish to do our best to give to God that which, as God, he is due: praise, love, exaltation, and service in good faith. This is not about there being a single right answer: the search to find a right answer and accept it is the paradigm of a belief-oriented system. But Judaism is an act-oriented system: it matters less what you believe than what you do. Ideally, sure, it would be nice to interpret the halakhah and the Torah with just the perfect little nuance that God would wish. But it's just as important, if not more, that in trying to look for ideas and answers, you don't neglect to look out for the defenseless, support the impoverished, comfort the grieved, and raise up the oppressed, which God loves even more than prayers and festivals. Read the Book of Amos if you don't believe me...!

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

levite

If your mother was Jewish, you are Jewish. Period, end of story. You can convert to whatever, and from the point of view of Jewish law, you remain a Jew, though a Jew in error. You absolutely don't have to convert back, presuming your mother was Jewish. All you have to do at most is publicly (i.e., in front of a group of three rabbis) renounce any other beliefs, and go to the mikveh (ritual bath).

As I mentioned above, I recommend classes. Most synagogues and many Jewish Community Centers have all sorts of fundamentals-of-Judaism classes. I also recommend classes in Hebrew from a local college. Nothing will serve you better than starting to learn Hebrew. And start reading. There are a lot of books. I have a reading list I use for instructing individuals in similar situations to yourself, and for use in teaching converts to Judaism, which I am attaching below. It's a serious list, not a crash course, and it's long. But they are good books, well worth the time. I include substantial chunks of source text also, which I recommend reading carefully to give yourself a leg up on a life of Jewish study. And to live as an observant Jew is, in large part, to be in constant dialogue with texts, to be in some measure constantly studying and learning.

There's a lot to learn. I can imagine it might look awfully dismaying and difficult. And it can be difficult, but don't be dismayed. It is learnable. It is comprehensible. It is doable. And you can do it. Please do PM me with any further questions; and if you like, PM me anyhow to let me know whereabouts you live, and I'll see if I know anyone around that I can hook you up with for some teaching.

Attached Files

Reading List.doc (27.0 KB, 2 views)

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Xazy

I tend to have friends who are from all range of observance, and I honestly feel, that it normally is the nuts who scream the loudest. I have to admit in the past few years I have been involved with a lot more hasiddim then I had in my first 20 years. Basically I now live in NYC, visit Israel yearly and tend to bump in and meet a lot more of them now. And I am more and more impressed by some of them, by how kind, nice, how open, warm, and willing to give the shirt off their back for another Jew.

I met a Chassid (wow typing hebrew/yiddish in english is a skill I am not good at) in Jerusalem one Friday night, and he invited me as someone new and visiting to come to his home for Shabbos. I did not accept his offer but the next day I found out from my sister who lives there all about this person. He and his wife have 8 children, they live paycheck to paycheck, he a year prior had lost his job, and now does a lot of temp work. Anyone (and I do not mean only orthodox I mean anyone) who is new to their synagogue that weeks gets invited to their house for a meal, during the week they have 'guests' who need places to stay come over for food or a bed. And this is just a sample of one such person who just wowed me, I have met dozens of people from people to the right who are just like this.

I do not disagree that there are some who I consider more the 'nuts', and they are most often seen, since they scream the loudest.

dlish

is this love of fellow man exclusive only between jews?

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

levite, can a non-jew attend these classes? can a non-jew convert to judaism?

christianity and islam have groups within themselves that go out and preach in order to convert and bring 'into the fold'. i have never noticed this of judaism. is there such a thing? and if not, why not?

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Xazy

They will help others, but the idea of charitey is first yourself then family then friend then communnity then others.

Ask any rabbi (for sure orthodox ones ) first answer will be you do not want to, don't give up your pork, cheeseburgers. Can people convert yes, but we will explain to you every hard rule first and advice you not to a million times over before you willl be allowed to.

dlish

so the aim of judaism isnt to convert? i just sense reluctance on your part to bring converts into the fold, is this because people will find it too hard and give it up?

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levite

D, it absolutely is possible to convert to Judaism. It's done all the time. I myself have helped guide people through the process.

That said, we do not proselytize, or attempt to actively recruit people to Judaism. The Jewish tradition has always taught us that it is perfectly possible to be a good person, and to please God, and achieve "eternal reward" (to the extent that the tradition believes there is such a thing for certain, or can agree on what it might be) without being Jewish. Judaism, we have always been taught is God's covenant with the Jewish people: it is not something demanded of others.

The way I look at it is that Judaism is how Jews should relate to God, what God expects of Jews. Presumably, God has other ways he expects others to relate to him.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Xazy

Non-Jewish people have it much easier, 7 commandments only versus the basic 613 Jewish ones (that when you break them down, is not so simple). Why make it harder on yourself, if you want to be a good person, and all much easier, and you get the cheese burgers, and when you go anywhere you can easily find food to eat, etc...

If you want in we will accept you, but we will make sure you understand every need, every item you will give up, and every new restriction that we embrace.

The understanding of what a Jew should aim for is to be a servant of G-d, his wine steward if you will.

powerclown

Ive noticed this as well, I've also noticed an historical attitude of acceptance and tolerance for people of differing religions - something that isn't always reciprocated for some reason.

My question: Have you seen the Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds" which deals with a 'jewish revenge fantasy' against the nazis and if so, what did you think of it? (I thought it stunk.)

Xazy

Just saw the movie, I enjoyed the movie. I liked the idea of how they marked the ones the Nazi's they let go. I will say one thing about Jewish belief, an eye for an eye. If someone is trying to kill you, you are allowed to kill them first.

It is fiction, I also do like terrentino style films, and was just well a fun way to spend a Thursday morning.

levite

I haven't seen it yet. I plan to, because with the exception of "Grindhouse," I love Tarantino movies, but I am not putting any stock into his story. IMO, you don't go to see Tarantino for plot, you go see Tarantino for snappy lines, stylish camera work, and ultra-violence. I never expect anything more.

As for a "Jewish revenge fantasy" rewriting history...I don't know that any such fantasy would or could help assuage the memory of the real events, but I also think that at worst it's...silly. My attitude, I guess, is...whatever.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

guy44

I'd agree with levite and xazy that opinions vary. One branch of my family is orthodox and they have almost completely cut off contact with the rest of us. Only one orthodox family speaks to us, all because we are reform or non-practicing Jews. As with all people, there are some reasonable and some unreasonable folks.

No, except for some very small groups, evangelism isn't a Jewish activity. Someone else mentioned that Jews seem to be tolerant of other religions, and while there are obviously exceptions (if I had a nickel every time I argued with a Jew who was blindly angry at Arabs/Muslims...but that's a whole 'nother conversation) I think that there is some truth to the idea. Maybe it's because of the diaspora, or that Jews have for so long been the minority everywhere they lived, but I think we've developed an outlook on life that accepts living with people who are very different than you are.

...I wanted to touch on levite's discussion of intermarriage in the reform movement. It's an extremely contentious topic internally and has been for years. Many people feel that it is eroding the number of people who consider themselves to be Jewish or practice Judaism. Others have a much more modern belief that love triumphs all. As admirable as the idea is for only marrying Jews...well, realistically, Jews are a tiny percentage of the American population, and an even smaller percentage of the world at large. My personal belief is that it is unrealistic to expect people nowadays to only marry within the tribe, so to speak. And as with many aspects of a religion and culture thousands of years old (the idea that women are not full and equal members of the community, and may not become rabbis, or that gays are committing a sin), Judaism may have to adapt to modern realities somehow in this case.

Judaism hasn't survived this long, in so many locations, and through so many difficult times by being monolithic and unable to evolve. In fact, the one thing I like most about my heritage is that Judaism not only encourages, but demands, that its adherents constantly take honest appraisals of - and question - absolutely everything. The story goes that after Jacob awoke from the dream in which he wrestled with angels, he took the name Yisrael, which means "one who struggles." The Shema, one of our holiest prayers, begins "Shema Yisrael," which means "listen, you who struggles with god." Times change, and I think it is up to Jews to both maintain their faith and keep up with them.

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"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

levite

With all due respect, guy, I have to disagree about this one thing. I think there are many, many areas of halakhic dispute between the movements in which I would agree with you: Judaism has to be free to evolve, yes, and with our tradition of makhloket l'shem shamayim [dispute for the sake of Heaven], we will inevitably evolve in different directions sometimes. And if it's a matter of what is or is not kosher, or what is or is not the minimum acceptable length of a weekly Torah reading, or what does or does not constitute a full Amidah, or what is or is not appropriate dress or other behavior for a Jew, I say that there is room for us to both do as we feel is best for the Jewish people, and we need not agree.

Where this differs is that, up until thirty-odd years ago, the entire Jewish people, fractured as it was, all understood that the fundamental basic of Jewish identity was matrilineal descent. We all knew that if your mother wasn't Jewish, then you needed to be converted in order to be a Jew. With all of our differences of opinion, our arguments, and our internal frustrations between movements, identity was one thing everybody trusted was universal in Judaism. And to me, that is sensible: as long as we know who the Jews are, we have some sense of what is going on, and where we stand, regardless of the ever-increasing differences in practice and halakhic standards.

We are in the midst of a dreadful crisis of assimilation. I work at a Jewish day school, at the high school level, and even with my students, who are in as Jewish an environment as one could wish, the level of ignorance is stunning, because no matter how much we at school try to cram into their heads, they get no supporting education at home, and their environment does not urge them to spend time studying Torah and learning Hebrew, their environment urges them to spend time playing Xbox and watching YouTube and, in short doing everything to absorb the secular American culture around them-- which, God help us, when it isn't secular is usually pretty Christian. The Jews we do have aren't strong enough to make up for those we lose to assimilation. Our numbers have never been big, but in the past there has always at least been a level of education, of being bound up with Jewish culture, of daily practice of the tradition, that has made up in strength what we lack in population. But not any more.

We don't need to weaken Jewish identity further right now. And if you want to say to me that the Reform movement doesn't see patrilineal descent as weaking, that may be the prerogative of the Reform movement, in theory, but unlike Reform views on prayer or kashrut, which can be ameliorated vis-a-vis their impact on the rest of the people, this has a terrible effect on the rest of the Jewish people. In all other things, a Jew can do as s/he likes, and have relatively small effect on the Jewish people: you don't keep kosher? OK, fine, so we'll go out to eat, or I won't eat hot food at your house, or I'll invite you to my place. You don't like the traditional prayer services? OK, so you go to your shul and I'll go to mine. But you marry a non-Jew and your kid wants to marry mine...? Suddenly we're screwed.

I've had a number of students now who I had to counsel, sometimes when they came to me in tears, because their Reform father and non-Jewish mother had told them their entire lives that they were Jewish, and their youth group never told them otherwise, and they get to a Conservative Hebrew School or a transdenominational high school, and they want to date a Conservative student, and that student's parents wig out when they find our their baby is dating a non-Jew. These are good kids who, all of a sudden, at 14, 15, 16, 17, suddenly are told that if they ever want to marry a non-Reform Jew, or make aliyah [emigrate to Israel], or have any honors in a non-Reform shul, etc., they need to convert. And naturally enough, they feel hurt and betrayed and angry as hell, and I have to try to help them sort out their feelings while maintaining their respect for their parents and their desire to continue associating with the Jewish people. And in some cases, I have seen students so fed up with the "deception" practiced on them that they simply walk away, disillusioned, and dismiss their practice of Judaism altogether.

The problem with intermarriage and patrilineal descent as a solution to it is that it's no solution. It just creates the illusion for the two spouses that they have solved their problem, when, in actuality they are simply visiting their troubles upon their offspring.

My problem with the Reform movement's actions is not that they don't crack down on intermarriage-- personally, I feel that's a bad choice, but it's not my movement. My problem is that the Reform movement doesn't simply tell its intermarried couples: listen, marry whoever you want, just get your children halakhically converted at birth. It's easily done, and it will save everybody a world of trouble later on. Because identity is the one thing that affects the entire people of Israel. There is no containing the ramifications. And as it stands, we are hemorrhaging Jews to assimilation, easily half the Reform movement is intermarried, and the only educated, motivated Jews who are vigorously keeping their children Jewish are the Orthodox. If we don't contain the problem now, non-Orthodox Judaism will be a thing of the past in 100 years.

I'm not saying this because it makes me happy, or because I want to take a poke at the Reform movement. My mom is Reform, my fiancee is Reform, some of my favorite colleagues in Jewish education are Reform. As a future Conservative rabbi, I am always eagerly hopeful that the two great liberal movements can find ways to work together, and I am absolutely heartbroken and hamstrung that there is this key difference that no amount of invoking "makhloket l'shem shamayim" can overcome.

Without consistency in identity, the Jewish people will fall apart. It's that simple. Nearly everything else is something that we can all agree to work on in dialogue with one another. But not this. And as a future Conservative rabbi, I am dreading the moment when I have to tell some nice young Reform kid that I cannot marry them to their fiancee without them converting first, because despite what their parents told them, halakhically they are not Jewish. That is not something I want to have to do-- God, I am dreading it! But it has to be done. Otherwise, Judaism is like a balloon not made of bonded latex or polyethylene or what have you, but of something much more permeable: slowly but surely, all the air inside will leak out, and after a time, all that will be left is an empty husk, the contents inside indistinguishable from the air outside.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

guy44

I don't want to threadjack "Ask a jew" into "Theological and sectarian discussions between Jews," and I certainly don't relish the idea of doing so with a soon-to-be-rabbi. Although the Reform movement has made the move towards accepting patrilineal descent, the point I tried to convey in my post is that it wasn't an easy choice. I remember from even when I was a kid that this topic - assimilation, etc. - was debated and argued and treated with utmost importance. Internally, from within the Reform movement, is was (and remains) a contentious issue. If some of your dire predictions about future consequences come to pass, I would not be surprised to see the issue flare up again and be revisited in some way.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

levite

I'm sure you're right. And I also don't mean to threadjack. Obviously, it's a very important issue, and brings strong feelings with it.

Also, guy, I really hope that those feelings did not inadvertently cause me to offend you, or make you feel personally attacked-- neither of which were my intent. And if I did, then I apologize.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

dlish

as an outsider looking in, and looking at this from a simplistic view, why is there so much disagreement when it has been mentioned earlier that there is no right and wrong?

if its ok to live your life as a non jew and be a good person, why does it matter what type of judaism you practice?

what is the ultimate goal of judaism when considering the afterlife? what happens to muslims, christians, athietsts etc when they die? can they enter heaven/nirvana if they have been 'good people'. and what constitutes what a 'good person' is?

is there a heaven without the existance of a hell, and who will enter it if there is?

sorry for all the questions

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

levite

It's not always necessarily so much whether the kind of Judaism a Jew practices is problematic or not so much as whether we can all keep playing together. The question of Jewish identity-- what is the minimum parameter we can all agree on is the definition of "us,"-- is key, because that determines whom we can marry, and whom we may call upon to act publicly as agents of our community in prayer, as witnesses in rabbinical courts, etc., all things only Jews may do.

Vis-a-vis the differences of opinion-- which can get very heated-- about how to decide the halakhic issues of our times, and how best to practice the tradition, these are important because of our covenant with God. Yes, of course non-Jews can be good people, and they can be justly rewarded for it by God. But they have different responsibilities to answer to God for. By our standards, yes, there are the seven commandments for the Children of Noah, but presuming that God makes other covenants, and establishes other relationships with other peoples, they then have to worry about those covenants, and the demands of those relationships. So if I say-- as I personally do-- that Islam is God's covenant with Muslims, then it is incumbent upon Muslims to fulfill the terms of that covenant. Or if I say that the Way taught to the Lakota by the Great Spirit is God's covenant with them, then I presume it is incumbent upon Lakota to live according to their ancient ways, in fulfillment of that relationship. But the covenant of God and Israel is Torah (in the widest sense of the meaning of the word), and that is what Jews must be responsible for. We believe that Jews are meant to be Jewish, just as other peoples are meant to be whatever they have inherited regarding their ancestral covenant or relationship with God.

The responsibilities of the covenant on Jews is not, we traditionally believe, subject to further negotiation, or to individual whim. What was accepted at Sinai was accepted for all our ages, for all our descendants, for all time to come, and we are bound by it. The binding is, some might say, comparatively loose, in that the means of executing the obligations is found in the process of halakhah, which is flexible, evolving, and renewing. Yet, like any system of laws and rules, it is dependent upon a number of things. First, that it operates according to its own rules. Radical changes and dramatic shifts can be made, but only according to the complex and sometimes slow process of the internal parameters of the halakhic system. Second, that certain basic fundamentals be accepted by all Jews. Fortunately for us (given the amount of truth in the old saying "two Jews, three opinions") the basic fundamentals are very few, and mostly constitute identity, belief in God and covenant, and a willingness to play by the rules. And third, that the system requires an educated populace dedicated to the maintenance and furtherance of the system.

To parallel American law for a moment, in other words, for American law to work, everyone has to accept the premises set forth in the Declaration of Independence; they have to accept the Constitution as binding; they have to be aware of how the American legal system works (in rough strokes, not a nation of lawyers), they have to agree to the general principles, and they have to know what the laws are, and what their options are for change if they disagree with a law. Unfortunately, while the bare minimums for participation in the American system can be met by twenty minutes quiet reading of Appendix A of any good 12th grade government textbook, and a car ride long enough to listen to the A side of Schoolhouse Rock's "Government Rock" album, the minimums for Jewish society take a little more work. But they are incumbent upon all Jews, and only upon Jews. The standard for other peoples is simply different: not better, not worse, just different.

There are, and have been, many many different beliefs in Judaism about the afterlife. And in some sense, we are all free to believe whatever we like about the afterlife, because the concerns of Judaism have always been over how we act here, in this world, in this life.

That said, there has almost always (since the inception of Rabbinic Judaism after the fall of the Second Temple) been some kind of belief in "Olam ha-Ba" that is, "The World To Come," which is more or less analogous to Heaven. There has never been any agreement as to what Olam ha-Ba is like, or what existence there offers, save that all concur that it would be very pleasant and rewarding-- much more so than this world-- and the pleasure and rewards would come both ceaselessly and without the price attached to them in this world. Eternally learning the secrets of Torah and basking in the radiance of God is a frequent postulation, although hardly the only postulation.

At various times, Jews have believed different things about the ability of non-Jews to enter Olam ha-Ba. But overarchingly through history, and certainly predominately today, the majority seem to believe that non-Jews who are of good character can and do enter Olam ha-Ba, and receive reward there. What precisely is the minimum requirement for a non-Jews entrance to Olam ha-Ba is the subject of some debate. Many have said it is obedience to the seven commandments for the Children of Noah. But many have also said it is that they demonstrated adherence to "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," together with whatever the moral imperatives of their own faith. Unsurprisingly, many Jews over the past 1000 years opined that in addition to these things, it helped if the non-Jew in question was friendly to Jews; but I personally would suppose that such a requirement would simply fall under the more overarching imperative to be kind and tolerant to all other peoples, not just the Jews.

Many have speculated a hell-place called Gehinnom, named after a valley in Jerusalem where once the Phoenician god Molekh was worshipped by the sacrifice of children; an image that was so horrible to the Rabbis of the Talmud that they apparently deemed the place worthy of representing hell on earth, as it were. It actually seems to have functioned more like purgatory: the souls of sinners were said to go there, work off their sins in various unpleasant punishments, and then, cleansed, proceed on to Olam ha-Ba. Belief in Gehinnom has never been a formal doctrine of Judaism, and historically, it has never been a popular belief, although it was widespread. Today it remains vigorous in the Orthodox communities, although in the liberal Jewish communities it is given lip service, at best, and many, if not most, do not believe in it.

But the spectrum of opinions on what may come in the afterlife is vast, and many Jews have picked and chosen and created various theories and scenarios to suit their needs and preferences. Personally, I believe that there is no Gehinnom or other hell or purgatory. I believe in what we have called the Sha'ar Ha-Gilgulim, which is to say the cycle of rebirth, or metempsychosis. That one lives in this world, dies, and one's soul is sent back to be born again, elsewhere to live another life. This goes on, I believe, until one has fulfilled one's purpose in the Divine Plan, balanced the cosmic scales for the sins one has committed, and learned the lessons one needed to know. At that point, if one wishes, one may enter Olam ha-Ba. Needless to say, this particular belief is both unorthodox and un-Orthodox.

Why? Isn't that what this thread is for?

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

guy44

Not at all. You know the old line about two Jews and three opinions, right? I'd be ashamed of us if we simply agreed on everything!

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

dlish

do jews see the middle east conflict as a religious altercation or a political one?

i mean, its a myriad of things really isnt it..

arabs vs jews
muslims vs jews
israel vs arab neighbours

does israel see it as a religious war or is politics and religions intertwined within judaism that it cannot be seperated?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Sticky

There are so many differeing opinions with regard to everythign that Israel is not different. In fact, I would guess that peoples opinions are much stronger on this subject and that you would be very surprised about certain people or groups opinions.

It is generally a Jewish belief that the land of Israel was promised to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob by God to be the place belonging to their children.
There are Jews who believe in this strongly and there are those who don't.

For simplicity I will make an assumption that is in general true - A practicing Jew, no matter what type of Judaism, will likely belive in the idea that God promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people.

However, this does not mean that those same people believe in the state of Israel in its current form.
Most probably do, but some view these two ideas as seperate

Regarding the current State of Israel, Once you understand the ideas above you can start to see how many differing opinions can arise.

- There are practacing Jews that believe in the State of Israel
- There are Unltra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform Jews who belive in the state of Israel
- There are non-practicing Jews that believe in the state of Israel
- There are non-practicing Jews that don't believe in the state of Israel
- There are practacing Jews that don't belive in the state of Israel
- Believe it or not there are those from the most ultra-Orthodox groups who many would consider the most strict and even fanatic who don't belive in the state of Israel. In fact, there are even some of these groups that are anti-Israel and will rally against Israel and give money to Anti-Israel groups.

With this last group mentioned they belive that God promised the state of Israel to the Jews but they belive that it will happen when the Messiah comes and that the current state is a secular institution that Jews should have nothing to do with.

With all the other groups that believe in the state of Israel there are differing opinions as well. Just because one believes in the state of Israel does not mean that they have to belive in the policies of the state of Israel. So, you will ahve Jews that agree with Israeli policy and those who don't.
And then even the Israeli policy is much more fluid then we understand. Just like any other country there are different political parties that belive in different political ideals. So people who agree with Israeli policy sometimes may not agree all the time and vice versa.

It may or may not be well known but the Israeli policitcal system is very fragmented. If you are familiar with the parlimentary system and you come from (or know how it works in) Canada or the UK you will wonder how the Israeli government is able to accomplish anything at all. In Canada and in the UK there are very few major parties who are bale to win seats in parliament and there is, most of the time (although not recently in Canada) a party that wins the majority of seats in the parliament.
In Israel, becuase political ideas are so fragmented, there are so many parties that get a handfull of seats. Each time there is a goverment it is formmed by coalition with the largets party in the coalition usually leading the coalition goverment. In Israel there are political parties that:
- Are right wing
- Left wing
- Center
- Religious Right
- Religious center
- Secular right
- Secular center
- secular left
- Issue based
There are even Arab parties. Several seats in the Isralei parliament are held by Isralei Arabs some of whom are very anti Israel.

So dlish, as you can see, your questions are not that simple.

Israel is a Jewish state.
Israel is not a religious state even though it has laws based around some religious institutions.
Israel has a parliamentary system where the government is lead msot often by right and left wing parties that are closer to the center than we imagine.
Israel has an Army that is controlled by the state.
Israel has a very powerful Judiciary system that many would agree is more left leaning than right.
The rabinate, while very important and while very influential, has no political power at all.

So to get to the questions (and you can probably guess some of the answers alread) .

Do Jews see the middle east conflict as a religious altercation or a political one?
Some would say it is only religious, others would say it is only political. Most would proably say both.

Arabs vs. jews
Muslims vs. Jews
Israel vs. Arab neighboors

All of the above. In my opinion though I think that we are now stuck where we are becuase of the inability to trust and the inability to be trustworthy (or honest).

Does israel see it as a religious war or is politics and religions intertwined within judaism that it cannot be seperated?
In my opinion, I believe that most of Israle sees it as political but so intertwined with religion that it can't be seperated. The Jews can't just walk away and make a homeland in Uganda (as was proposed at one point). This is why relgions is so intertwined (from the Jewish side at least).

(I rambled a bit)

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 PM ----------

Agree with that. But another very important factor is kavanah (intent). You can act all you want but it is important that intent is there as well. even with negative comandments. Intent is often a factor in whether you have successfully carried out the mitzvah (commandment).

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 PM ----------

And if you are a woman and have children born to you, they are Jewish as well.

__________________
Sticky The Stickman