levite

D, Sticky's answer to this was excellent, I just want to round out a couple of corners. Sticky's absolutely right in that this is quite likely either the most divisive or one of two or three most divisive issues amongst Jews. Everyone has opinions, and feelings run high.

I can tell you that, in my experience, most of the Jews I know do not see the Israel-Palestinian conflict as necessarily Arabs vs Jews (I think there was more of that sentiment in the 60s and 70s, but less and less since peace with Egypt in '79), and surely the majority of the folks I know don't see it as a case of Muslims vs Jews per se, although the use of extremist Islam as a rallying point by groups like Hamas are, unsurprisingly I am sure, very unpopular with Jews. There are a handful of (unfortunately rather vocal) Jews amongst the raving neocons here in the US, and amongst the ultra-Orthodox both here and in Israel, who use religion to justify some really sick views about what ought to be done to the Palestinians, and a point of pride for me as a liberal Jew has always been that such opinions are not only not mainstream in Jewish society, but are widely scorned, condemned, and vituperated by people in all the movements-- both vocally and in print. And I think it is safe to say that many Jews feel like it would be nice to hear the same kind of condemnation and distancing from Palestinians vis-a-vis Hamas and their ilk, and it is hard to feel confident about the chances for future relations with folks who apparently are willing to espouse the views of Hamas and company.

I think most Jews are torn. On the one hand, we have all been taught, and most of us hold some feeling, for the Land of Israel being the gift of God to the Jews. On the other hand, though many of us feel that Israel has a right to defend itself, and is often unfairly criticized for doing so, none of us like bloodshed, and none of us like to see Jewish hands shedding blood, whether it may be justified or no. We want to see Israel whole and safe, and yet we would like to do so as peacefully as possible, and yet we realize that may not always be possible. A great part of the problem, from the Jewish point of view, is that (and this is not just a propaganda line, but a truism) we don't know who to talk to. Everyone who seems to be in a leadership position amongst the Palestinians doesn't appear to be particularly interested in flexible negotiations or guaranteeing Israel's safety. But to most of the Jews I know, that signifies a failure of leadership, not a reason to hate all Palestinians.

All of this, BTW, is entirely separate from Israeli politics and social movements. Israel may be the Jewish State, but it is not a theocracy, and the majority of its citizens are what is known there as "hiloni," which tends to be translated "secular," although it is a term employed to describe the entire spectrum of non-Orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices. The motivations of Israeli governments, politicians, and society, have little, if anything, to do with Judaism-- and that often includes the politics of the ultra-Orthodox.

If you want to know my feelings on the subject, they are these. I am a religious Zionist, and I believe it is very important that there be a Jewish nation in the Land of Israel. That said, I also think that God wants us to find peace between the Children of Isaac and the Children of Ishmael; and if to do so means giving up part of our land, that's probably not too great a price. I won't deny that there are areas in which I am skeptical and unwilling as yet to trust the capabilities of the Palestinian government and the entirety of the people to live in peace, side by side with Israel: I believe in Jewish sovreignty over Jerusalem, and that the suburbs of Jerusalem in Gush Etzion need to stay Israeli; but I believe there has to be a land swap to make things equitable, and the Israeli government needs to offer a permanent assurance of the unshakable right of Muslims to have free access to the Dome of the Rock and the masjid Al-Aqsa (and the masjid al-Umar), and to assure the support of Israel within all reasonable parameters for the oversight of the Haram al-Sharif by the Waqf. I think that the Palestinian people need to do more to voice their rejection of violence and terrorism, and I think the Israelis need to be more frank and open in their confrontation of the effects on the average Palestinian in lack of movement, lack of money, lack of many things, as a result of Israel's security actions. I don't know whether or not all those actions were and are justified, but I do know that there is not enough taking of responsibility by Israel for the effects on the noncombatant populace.

I am split on many things. I don't like the idea of the kind of controls that the Palestinian people live under. And yet I also remember the school years of '01-'02 and '03-'04, when I lost friends to bus and cafe bombings in Jerusalem, the bombing of Hebrew University, and there was fear in every street of the city. And I noted, when I lived in Jerusalem, the year before last, the city was safe. There were only two or three terror alerts, and only one successful terrorist action-- a shooting in a yeshiva, committed by a kid from East J'lem. The fence, as unpopular as it is, works: and I couldn't deny it.

I am no fool. I don't blame all Palestinians for the actions of some-- that's madness. But there is a culture at work amongst the Palestinians right now that is supportive of terrorism, and that causes me so much distrust that often I distrust even those who are trustworthy. And if that's true for me, how much more so for others who are less willing to be open on the subject.

I think the situation is being exacerbated on both sides. Among the Palestinians, I think that the people as a whole are being manipulated and used by corrupt officials and religious radical nutballs, and in their misery and despair they allow themselves to be wielded like a weapon. Among the Israelis, I think that right-wing nutjobs are in control of the Knesset at the moment, who are uninterested in considering fair solutions, and the legitimate fears and questions about security are being wielded like weapons of panic by corrupt neocons and ultra-Orthodox radical nutjobs. I don't know what the solutions are, but they need to come from both sides.

And whatever my beliefs as a religious Zionist concerning the Land of Israel and the Jews' right to it, it still breaks my heart that Jews and Muslims are at each other's throats worldwide over this, when to my mind, the Sons of Abraham should be natural allies and brothers. I hate that there is this major thing that I have to simply agree with my Muslim friends never to discuss. I hate that I can't share their enthusiasm for visiting the Haram al-Sharif, or their worry for Palestinian friends without it being clouded by other issues. And I hate it that they can't share my enthusiasm for Jerusalem and my interest in the fortunes of my friends' vineyards and fromagieries in Gush Etzion without it being clouded for them with other issues. I pray for peace, and I pray that both sides will be guided by God, and I figure that, in the absence of solutions, the best I can do is to remain as flexible as I feel possible, and do my best to not let it affect my relationships with Muslim individuals.

In the end, it is a conflict of nations, not a conflict of religions or peoples. And I hope it is over sooner rather than later.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

loquitur

Levite, is it also your impression (it's definitely mine) that Judaism and Islam are much more similar to each other than either one is like Christianity?

dlish

i see that too loq...its just amazes me that we just dont seem to see eye to eye. shame

muslims emulate Mohammad and carry out daily tasks that he used to do in terms of how he ate, spoke, dressed, acted etc.

do jews have a similar thing where they emulate the actions of a particular prophet like Moses?

One example is the beard. Muhammad kept one, so devout muslims the world over keep one. why do jews keep their beards?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Sticky

This group is marching right down the street past my office building as I type this.
I find it sad.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

I am sure that levite will expand but, in general, no.

Jews emulate (or would like to emulate) the actions of Moses not becuase he was Moses. A Jew ends up emulating Moses by following the commandments.
Moses was a great Jew. He followed the commandments well. If you follow the commandments well you will be a good Jew and as a result be like Moses.

So the goal is not to emulate Moses the goal is to be a good Jew.

Maybe that is what it is like with Muhammad and Muslims. I don't know. If I ask, I will have to put in in the other thread .

__________________
Sticky The Stickman

levite

I'd have to say yes to that. Judaism and Islam are religions of laws, first and foremost. They construct a framework of daily ritual and practice that is grounded in a legal system of sacred laws derived by stylized exegesis from holy texts, or by interpreting the comments and deeds of the originators of the system, and their teachings (in the case of Judaism, the Rabbis of the Talmud and their teachings; in the case of Islam, the comments and deeds of Muhammad, and those who were taught directly by him, and their teachings, as I understand it-- Dlish, is that too egregious a simplification of sunnah, hadith, and fiqh? I admit I barely know the surface, let alone the complexities of how they interact).

Also, theologically, the absolute monotheism of Judaism and Islam are much more similar to one another than to the more complex, constructed monotheism of Christianity (i.e., that Christianity has to do some mighty fancy philosophical footwork to get the Trinity to be one God, whereas monotheism is self-evident from the texts of Judaism and Islam), and certainly is more philosophically similar than the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox systems, which incorporate not only trinitarianism but the cults of the saints.

This is really Reason One I've never gotten how Muslims and Jews don't get along better. You would really think it would be easy for us. It is a damn shame, which I hope won't last forever-- or even much longer. I personally have always felt much more kinship with the Muslim scholars I've run into than with the Christian seminarians I know-- though of course they're lovely people, and I am delighted to know them.

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------

We really don't have anything similar to this. The closest I can think of would be the way different Hasidic groups follow their masters, whoever their Rebbe or Grand Rabbi is, or their founding Rebbe was. They often emulate devices of speech, attitudes, even sometimes manners of dress. But that is still nowhere near the same level of importance or centrality, and it is only among some Hasidim, by no means a mainstream thing.

Even the Hasidic Rebbes don't encourage such a thing. Much closer to the main stream of Jewish thought would be this teaching: when Reb Zushya of Hanipoli (one of the early, great Hasidic masters) was dying, he trembled, and his students, seeking to reassure him, told him that surely he would be welcomed in the World To Come, because he was so learned, so great-- like Moses come again! And he shook his head, and replied, "When I come before my Creator, I do not fear he will ask me, 'Why did you not try to be more like Moses?' I fear he will ask me, 'Why did you not try to be more like Zushya?'"

As Sticky mentioned, we are traditionally taught not to compare ourselves with others, or to worry about what they did or did not do in minute terms. If we compare ourselves with others, generally we are encouraged to admire the learnedness, the devotion, the prayerfulness, or the humility of great figures in Jewish text and history. But not to emulate their dress, or their manner, or what have you.

As for the beard thing, traditionally, Jewish men have worn beards for two reasons: one is the commandment not to shave one's beard with a razor, which we extrapolate from the command in Leviticus 19:27 about not "rounding the corners of the head," which also explains the wearing of peyot or sidelocks. The other is that there are certain Kabbalistic teachings that emphasize beard growth as a mark of developing certain kinds of energies. Even today, if you run into any Orthodox man who doesn't have a beard, he will have trimmed it not via razor but via electric shaver, which, halakhically (according to Jewish law) acts like a scissors, not a razor, and is therefore permissible. Many Conservative men also follow that interpretation. On the rare occasions I have shaved, I have used an electric razor. But I don't keep a beard because I fear violating the commandment, or for Kabbalistic reasons, but rather because without it, I look 15 years younger and at least 120 degrees rounder in the apparent circumference of my face.....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

I really wish you two could enjoy bacon. I respect your religious beliefs, but it's just sad to know you're missing out. Oh well, I'll enjoy enough bacon for the three of us.

Xazy

Bleh, pig, no appeal at all, the smell of pork just makes my stomach turn.

There is no real Rabbi we aim to aspire to we might say for instance that Moshe was an "Unov" (no clue how to spell a Hebrew word in English the closest translation of it is modest but it is not close enough). But there is no real person we emulate.

levite

You know what? In my younger, wilder days, when I was going through my time of questioning, and for a brief time did not keep kosher, I ate bacon several times. And I have to say, honestly, it was good. But I never thought it was all that. I had heard non-Jews tell me my whole life of the glories of bacon, and don't get me wrong, it's quite tasty; but it was so not all it was cracked up to be. Maybe it just got spoiled by the hype, I don't know. But when I went back to keeping kosher, bacon was not in any way shape or form hard to give up-- and it was, by light-years, the best of the pork products. I tried ham, pork chops, etc., and thought they were revolting. Pork sausage: not bad, but in no way better or tastier than beef or chicken or turkey sausage. The whole pork/bacon thing was, IMO, mostly hot air.

On the other hand, I still sometimes dream of shrimp. God, I miss them. I remember the first time I ate one, and I was like, "Holy fuck, how did nobody ever tell me about this?!!" Shrimp, and to a lesser degree, lobster and scallops, were so very much harder to give up than bacon...!!! I still remember the meal at which I realized that, if I were going to be true to myself, and really live with my increasing reconnection to Jewish practice, this would be my last shrimp. It was at a Chinese place in Santa Cruz that I loved, that did this dish called "Three Flavor Shrimps," where you got a little helping of garlic shrimp, a little helping of kung pao shrimp, and a little helping of sweet and sour shrimp, served with shrimp fried rice (for some reason that didn't qualify as a flavor, I guess); and they used the freshest shrimp, daily caught just down the road in Monterey, and they cooked them so gorgeously: crispy and taut on the outside, firm and moist and buttery on the inside. I remember saying goodbye with each unbelievably succulent little morsel of briny goodness, and in my head, saying to God, "You just better have a good explanation for this one when I get to ask You face to face. Because I'm gonna be really pissed if it turns out that You say, 'Shrimp? I never said that! Why do you think I made them so delicious?! I said when you eat them, don't scrimp! As in, have lots of them. Me damn it! That Moses and his poor hearing!'"

Seriously though, don't worry about us Jews. We're okay. 'Cause let me tell you, pork shmork, my grandma (God rest her soul) made matzoh ball soup with kreplach (like won tons) that would have made you weep. We get by, my friend.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

I've had several Muslim friends try to convince me that they conveniently hate bacon. I'm not saying you're a liar, but I've never met a Jewish or Muslim person that actually admits to loving bacon, and that somehow seems wrong to me. Oh, have you tried kosher shrimp? It's made of Alaska Pollock fish (insert polish joke here). Supposedly, it's a reasonable approximation. I'm sure with the right sweet and sour sauce or garlic and butter concoction, you could be brought back to shrimp nirvana.

Delving back into Kashrut for just a minute, the question of why is what interests me. Is it really just "this is the common interpretation and I trust G-d", or is it something more like a test of obedience or self-control?

levite

First of all, I have-- alas!-- met plenty of Jews who admit they love bacon. Most of them don't appear to be willing to give it up. But to respond slightly to your observation, I have noted that among those I know who have tried and disliked it, or at least not liked it enough to mind giving it up, all of them-- myself included-- were raised in kosher households, and not permitted to eat nonkosher food at the houses of friends. I wonder if part of the glory of bacon is that its fans have been socialized to know that it is delicious. I mean, if it is given to kids as a treat, or otherwise becomes a childhood favorite, the bond is likely to last into adulthood for emotional as well as flavor-based reasons. And by the same token, if one never is given the chance to taste it as a child, or is told that it is a yummy treat, one simply never forms the subconscious associations with it.

In any case, I have tried the faux shrimp made with pollock, and they're not bad. I sometimes use them to make mock seafood chowders. I would readily concur that they are more like shrimp than soy bacon is like bacon. But they don't taste like shrimp. Not really. I have done everything to them I can think of, and they are tasty, but they just don't have the smoothness of texture, the innate butteriness, the fresh brininess, of real fresh shrimp.

I think there are a lot of reasons for why people keep kosher. For a lot of Jews who do, it really is as simple as "God told us to." Others have various reasons of their own, most IMO rather hazy and vague. And there are some who take a literalist Kabbalist stance that nonkosher foods convey spiritual impurities. I'm never satisfied with simple answers, and I am also not a textual literalist, or a believer in direct Divine authorship of the Torah. I may be something of a Kabbalist, but I have no evidence that nonkosher foods convey such spiritual impurities. So for me, the Kabbalist answer is out, and it's less that I am satisfied to believe "God told us to, end of story," and more that I don't know what the Real Reasons are, since God has not revealed them; or if this is part of something that a prophet misunderstood, and God intended something else for us, there is nothing to suggest an alternate understanding to me. Therefore, to me it makes sense to take it on faith unless there is an overwhelming reason not to. And since there are a number of other issues in halakhah that I find in need of radical answers and sweeping changes, I feel that it behooves me to pick my battles. For example, I am intent on using a radical halakhic methodology to resolve the problem of gay acceptance in Jewish society; and that seems reasonable to me, because it makes a change to relieve the daily suffering of many others. But what would be gained by attempting to rewrite the halakhot of kashrut in order to permit the eating of foods explicitly banned in the Torah (a very radical change, well-nigh impossible to achieve)? I would get to eat shrimp again. Some other people would get to eat bacon again. Very pleasant, no doubt, but a disproportionately minor problem to go to such monumental and dramatic lengths to resolve. Much better, IMO, to save the effort for more serious issues.

Because in the end, who is hurt by my not eating shrimp or bacon? Nobody. What negative energy is generated by my not eating shrimp or bacon? None, as far as I can tell. Would anyone be hurt by my eating shrimp or bacon? Not directly, but it would be yet another wedge to drive into the divides between the Jewish people vis-a-vis halakhic disagreements. Would my eating shrimp or bacon generate negative energy? It seems unlikely, but then again, the Torah says God wishes us not to, and in my mode of understanding, the "reason" for commandments without apparent reason is that God wishes us not to do things that generate negative energy between ourselves, or between ourselves and the world, or between ourselves and God, and somehow God or the prophets who wrote the Torah believed that doing or not doing X thing would generate said negative energy. Perhaps the Torah is wrong in the matter of kashrut, but what reasons do I have for not going with the Torah as a matter of first recourse, rather than going against it as a matter of first recourse? Only a love of shrimp. And that, IMO, is a pretty poor reason.

Which, I suppose, still boils down to faith. But it's not, IMO, a blind or unreasoned faith, within its own parameters.

There are those liberal Jews, especially amongst the Reform, who keep kosher because they see it as a hallmark of identity: keeping kosher is something that Jews do. Therefore I will keep kosher to solidify my identity as a Jew. I respect that, but for me, that is insufficient. Likewise, Reconstructionists occasionally keep kosher because they see Judaism as a patchwork of folkways, and kashrut is the peculiar folkway of foods and eating dictated by our culture. Needless to say, I don't see that as sufficient, either. But that's because, as they will do, they have left God and Torah out of the equation, and as an observant Jew, I cannot see such things save in terms of God and Torah.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Xazy

He did.

Willravel

I don't see it as a matter of what it would hurt/not hurt, but rather as simply a question of modern interpretation. I've read the OT more than a few times and there are some rather dated requests which may have seemed pragmatic at the time, but are now entirely out of date. Circumcision used to prevent dangerous infection, but modern practices of hygiene would prevent that. Growing different crops next to each other could have caused pollination problems, but we're genetically engineering super-crops now. I'm pretty sure we can grow corn in the Sahara (and that it'd be subsidized). Women that are menstruating are no longer prone to infections, in fact we have pills that reduce the frequency of periods to 4 times a year or even less. I've postulated here on TFP in the past that the Sabbath was the first instance of worker's rights, but we have labor laws now.

It's not that the passages of the Torah are wrong, in fact there may have been a time when these directives saved lives. It's a question of whether these were divine mandates intended to be carried out for all time or simply some very clever men that took down what at the time were very important rules. If it's the former, it seems to be 100% an act of faith. If it's the latter, I'll buy you a plate of shrimp.

Xazy

I appreciate the offer of you trying to get me to sin . Wish i could try the shrimp, but if I was to try non-kosher I would start with a good cheeseburger or go to Peter Luger. Sadly it will be just be a temptation for me that I have to live with.

levite

The thing is, Will, you're trying to rationalize what might not be rational. Circumcision because of hygienic reasons: modern medicine=no more need for snippy-snip. But what if that wasn't the reason for circumcision? We can call it by any number of fancy terms, and over the years, our rabbis have come up with some dandy ones. And if you ask Orthodox rabbis for reasons, either they won't give them to you, or they will simply put the full stop where Xazy did, and say "God told us to," or perhaps at best will give you some pleasant-sounding reinterpretive language that makes this all more palatable for the rationalist ear.

But in the end, it's a blood oath. A blood binding ritual, to use the classical magical terminology. It is a profoundly arational act, based not in an incomplete and ineffective scientific paradigm, but in an extensive and much more elusive paradigm of mysticism. You were a fellow Buffy watcher, if I recall right: remember the Season Five finale, when Xander asks, jokingly, "Why does it always have to be blood...?!" And Spike retorts, "Because it's always gotta be blood.... Blood is life, lackbrain.... It's what keeps you going, makes you warm, makes you hard, makes you other than dead." And the thing of it is, Spike is right. From a magical/mystical perspective, the unbreakable bond is wrought in blood. That's why we are forbidden to eat the blood of even kosher animals. That's why blood conveys spiritual impurity according to our ancient purity codes. That's why when Jewish women finish menstruating, they go dip themselves into a pool of living water (i.e., rainwater or melted and warmed glacier water; or if a natural body of water, a fresh-fed lake or the ocean): only living water, free of stagnation, is free of magic, and neutralizes the powerful energies associated with blood. Blood is Life. This covenant that God and Israel have is a covenant bound for life. It must be sealed in blood, nothing else will do. And it can't be a ritual drop from just anyplace. It is a covenant for all generations, a covenant to elevate all the mundane, everywhere, all the time, into the holy. It must be from the sexual organ, symbolizing its eventual passage to the next generation, and it must be there, permanently marked in us, to remind us, even at the moment we are most wrapped up in the worldly, that even this can be sacred. Even in that profoundly personal moment, we are still bound in our covenant to God.

Shabbat may or may not be good labor law. It may or may not be good civil rights. But it is a spiritual necessity. Spiritual development demands focus, silence, cessation of the worldly, and an immersion in the holy, on a regular basis. If, as we think, God gave us Torah in order to facilitate (among other things) our spiritual development, Shabbat is an absolute necessity.

Kilayim (the sowing of mixed crops) may or may not be good agriculture. But it is a reminder to someone whose life is spent measuring and working the utter pragmatics of earth and seed and harvest that their crop is not just some junk they put in the ground in hopes they can scrounge enough to eat next winter: each kind of grain and grass is different from every other, and we should pay attention even in those utterly routine moments of sowing seed to think about the wondrousness of the Creator's work, who doesn't just give us Plant and Animal, but the incredible, bewildering, breathtaking explosion of different kinds of life on our world, each kind completely different, with its own qualities and admirable traits.

Maybe kashrut was just an early kind of hygiene and sanitation system, but maybe it isn't. Maybe in the end, it's designed to teach us something. Maybe about how we are permitted to eat only grazing animals and foraging birds, putting us only one remove from vegetarianism, rather than consuming predators or scavengers putting us at one or two further removes from vegetarianism, signifying that while we are designed to be omnivorous, we should be careful of how we treat the higher lifeforms we are going to eat, and select only those that cause the least distancing from a plant-based life. Or maybe it's to teach us something else entirely. Or perhaps, the consumption of other kinds of animals has an effect on our energy that is unsuitable to the rest of the Jewish lifestyle. They say that you are what you eat: perhaps we are forbidden to eat predators and scavengers lest we become them, in spirit or in mind....

But that's the thing. There are so many lessons that the commandments do teach, or can be revealed to teach with just a little investigation; and so many facets of mystical or magical life that can be found to be somehow affected or tied into them, that one cannot simply declare cavalierly that such and such a commandment has just outlived its day. If such a thing ever comes about, that we are forced to put a commandment into abeyance, it would require more than just a penchant for rationalism to justify it. I contemplate putting the commandment about shunning male-on-male intercourse into abeyance, not because I cannot fathom it teaching anything, but because I cannot fathom anything it teaching outweighing the daily suffering of the gay Jews I know, who are merely trying to exist as God created them, and trying to live good Jewish lives as best they can according to who they are. To relieve the suffering of my brothers in the Jewish community, I might act radically to change the halakhah. But just because someone offers me shrimp, or tells me circumcision is unnecessary now that we have showers and soapy washcloths? Not so much.

Judaism is a religion of laws-- which are rational, according to their own framework-- but not only laws. It is a religion of story, of symbolism, and at heart, like any good religion, a religion of spirit. And all of those realms are realms of the arational, and to attempt to rationalize them is to strip the most important parts away. Or, if you like, think of it this way: if I gave you the choice between three gorgeously cooked, succulent dishes for your breakfast, lunch, and dinner, on condition that they be savored accordingly, or, alternatively, the option to take the perfect balance of the day's nutrition and energy needs in the form of a single capsule to be taken in the morning with a glass of water-- thus giving you considerable extra time, saving you cost, and effort, and optimizing your experience for the scientifically-calculated mean efficiency of your body's blood and enzyme systems...which would you choose? From a purely rational point of view, the capsule has to win every time, but I'd be willing to bet the majority of people would take the food.

Torah is more than just social rules. Every passage in Torah has levels, shades and nuances of meaning that have nothing to do with the mundane details of life. And in the end, it doesn't matter whether the words came directly, intact, verbatim from God, and we've messed up the transmission or misunderstood the message, or whether the words represent a bunch of people's efforts to try and put words into nonverbal messages from God. In either case, the Torah has been given already. It is no longer in Heaven, for God to tell us how it should be interpreted, but here on Earth, where it is the job of rabbis and scholars of halakhah to interpret it as best they can to achieve the goal of binding God and Israel ever closer.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Spiritsoar

Wow. I started reading this thread with one question in mind, and ended up spending my whole lunch break reading and thinking, which spawned a bunch more questions. But since my break is nearly over, I'll start with my original question. How do Jews in general, and you specifically, feel about non-Jews and Kabbalah? (or however you spell it, I've found about 10 different ways, and I imagine the differences arise from translation from Hebrew to English) I'm particularly interested in your opinions in its use in Hermeticism, but also curious about what you think of those who seem to practice it as a stand-alone belief system, such as Madonna and the Kabbalah Centre.

__________________
Veritas Vos Liberabit

Xazy

First of all Kaballah does deal in HEBREW and the Torah, I have met some true Kabbalah Rabbi who can scare the pants off of you and tell you some stuff that make you cringe in fear to just meet them and ask for advice. And most ashkanzic Jews hold that until you 40 you should not even consider learning Kabbalah. Sephardic Jewry learn it more, Ashkanazic tend to learn it much less often since there is so much more to learn first.

Kaballah is the mystical portion of the Torah, it is about understanding more the world we have , us and G-d, using Torah and mystical connections.

We can also talk about translating the Kaballah to English etc..., how words when translated the meaning is not precise, how someone with 0 knowledge or groundwork in Torah try to learn the Torah mystical section which is very heavy based on the Torah, on Hebrew letters, on truths that take 40 years worth of Torah learning to consider before you even start to learn it, yes do not make me laugh...

I am under 40, and I have heard seen I think 3 times with a Rav who learns kabbalah showed me an answer to a unique question I had showed me an answer in there, and it is not something you can just read and understand you need so much groundwork before hand.

By the way my curiosity my desire to learn Kaballah is there, yet I know inside me despite how much I learn and know I will probably not get to the level where I can begin to grasp it, and it is something that is not for me to know.

<edit> Here is 1 of Kaballah stories in my life. Oh and I consider this the least creepy one.

I will add a story of a Rav who was the student of the famous M'Kubul Rabbi Yisrael Abuhatzeira or better known as באבא סאלי (Baba Sali). I met a man in my building who was looking to meet someone in the community, he was the shamash (right hand man) for this Rabbi, who was visiting from Israel and was outside in the car. And I asked the man if I can get a Bracha (blessing), from him, and he said of course. I went outside the Rav was 103 at the time, and I had only had heard of him before but never met him. The man I spoke with translated what I asked for to the Rav, he gave me a blessing, I then gave a list of hebrew name of my siblings and he went through giving each family a blessing, when he got to one of my sisters he stopped, and finally said he will give it but it will not help, and continued with my other family.

My sister he stopped at, is married to an abusive manipulative wife-beater piece of garbage husband.

levite

I'm glad you asked this question (and I hope you won't be shy about any of the others that occurred to you)! Magic and mysticism is actually one of my professional areas of interest, so I am pleased to get the chance to say something about it. I hope you'll bear with me if I separate your question into three subquestions, and first one subquestion that was unasked, but lies in the background nonetheless.

1. Jewish feelings about Kabbalah. Not all Jews approve of Kabbalah, and historically, there have been considerable differences of opinion over the propriety of certain kinds of Kabbalah and certain aspects of Kabbalistic practices. First of all, there is a difference between what we might refer to as "High Kabbalah," which is a mysticism more oriented toward theology, philosophy, metaphysics, with elements of practice more or less limited to meditation, arcane readings of scripture, and certain esoteric contemplation techniques; versus what we might call "Low Kabbalah," which is much less interested in abstract philosophy and metaphysics, and much more interested in practical magic. There has, perhaps unsurprisingly, always been more tolerance amongst the scholars and rabbis for "High Kabbalah," and more tolerance amongst the average country folk for "Low Kabbalah." Sometimes the lines between the two have blurred, and it has proven disastrous, as in the case of the False Messiah Shabtai Tzvi (if you're interested, wikipedia him) who achieved fame as a wonder-worker and maker of amulets; and sometimes the lines between the two have blurred and it has proven beneficial, as in the case of the Baal Shem Tov, the founder of Hasidism (again, if you want to know more, wikipedia him), who was not only a charismatic and learned scholar, but also a famous magical healer and exorcist. But even in the case of "High Kabbalah," there has been a strong tradition of neo-Aristotelian rationalism in traditional Judaism, brought about chiefly under the auspices of the great philosopher and halakhist Moses Maimonides (if you don't know who he is, check out his wikipage), and that school of thought have consistently rejected mysticism of every kind-- although to me it seems to me that they just replace it with their own brand of mysticism. Today, many if not most Liberal Jews have a very post-Enlightenment skepticism regarding magic and mysticism, both in the "existence" thereof but also in the value thereof, regardless of "Low" or "High." The Orthodox world also has a chunk of people who don't hold with magic and mysticism, but more who do. That latter group is divided into those who believe in it, but think it is too dangerous and radical for anyone save the most learned, holy scholars; and those who not only believe in it, but believe in learning and teaching it.

2. Jews and non-Jews adopting Jewish language, text, and scholia for use in non-Jewish practice. Obviously, there is a line: after all, Christianity and Islam, as well as many minor religions, use Jewish texts or the reinterpretation thereof and Jewish language and practices for their own purposes, and we don't object. In my scholarly experience, most Orthodox Jews who are made aware of the existence of Hermetic or Western Qabalah (since there are many transliterations of the word, my usual practice is to spell the Jewish mysticism as Kabbalah, the Western/Hermetic systems as Qabalah, and the Christian mystical system as Cabala) are not comfortable with the usage, since much of the Western magical tradition embraces what we refer to as avodah zarah, which is sometimes translated as "idolatry," but is more accurately termed "foreign worship," meaning worship or spiritual practice forbidden to Jews or unintended for them. Such people view the adoption of Kabbalistic models and language by the Western magical traditions as an improper use by non-Jews of what is deeply esoteric and sacred to Jews. Personally, I believe that as long as practitioners of Qabalah do not claim that what they do is Jewish mysticism, or that Qabalah and Kabbalah are the same thing, there is little reason to protest. People borrow and swap cultural material: it happens. It's only when they imply continuity where none exists, or claim the mantle of Judaism without actually being Jewish, that I then have an issue. I would venture to guess that I am probably in the minority among Liberal Jews in even having an opinion about this subject. Many if not most are likely to be ignorant concerning either or both Kabbalah and Qabalah, and fewer still are likely to care.

3. Non-Jews (or, I suppose, in theory, uneducated or misguided Jews) practicing "Kabbalah" as a stand-alone system, or using elements thereof to assemble a makeshift system. This is more problematic. In part it has to do with what I mentioned above, with it being problematic when non-Jews attempt to claim some form of Jewish identity without actually converting to Judaism and practicing it in some recognized form. And in part it has to do with the fact that Kabbalah simply is not intended to be a stand-alone system. It is Jewish mysticism, and it is designed for use in living a Jewish life. Furthermore, Kabbalah is extremely, egregiously, unbelievably complex. To properly understand even the simplest level of meaning in the text, one must be fluent in Hebrew, relatively fluent in the Aramaic of the Talmud and other Rabbinic writings, and one must be deeply, deeply steeped in the scholarship of Tanakh (The Hebrew Bible), Talmud, Midrash (the body of literature comprising exegetical parables written by the Rabbis of the Talmud), the Apocrypha, and numerous works of commentators, halakhists, storytellers over the course of centuries, if not millennia. I have been studying Jewish text my entire life-- my father is an Orthodox rabbi, and my mother is a professor of Jewish Thought, and I was inculcated with Jewish scholarship from Day One-- and only within the last few years (I am thirty-six) am I beginning to be able to perceive the simpler meanings of the great Kabbalistic texts. Chances are, the random non-Jew who professes to follow "Kabbalah" as his system of belief in actuality has no idea what he is talking about. The bulk of the Kabbalistic literature has never been translated-- to the degree that it even is translatable. There are no shortcuts. I have met a couple of non-Jews who label themselves "students of Kabbalah," who are studying all these things, and admit that they may never acquire the requisite knowledge to properly comprehend what they study. So much I might accept. But I have never yet met a non-Jew who says he "does" Kabbalah who actually has taken the time to master the vast range of knowledge necessary to even start making sense of what is there. I doubt there are many, if any.

4. The Kabbalah Centre. If you read my posts, you'll know that in general, I try hard to respect the opinions of others, and to be polite even in disagreement. If you knew me, you'd know I nearly never judge the practices of others in religion in public without at least leavening such judgment with an admission that I could be wrong, or be misunderstanding. Therefore, it should be taken with some seriousness when I say that the Kabbalah Centre are the worst kind of frauds. They may teach many things, but actual Kabbalah is not among them, and their practices are willfully ignorant, disrespectful to the tradition, deceitful, and avaricious. They prey upon the ignorant, the unwary, and the helpless. They take the holy and sacred Name of God and debase it by selling it as simony. In their stores are the parchments made to be put inside mezuzot (the little cylinders or boxes you see affixed to the doorposts of Jewish homes and businesses): these must be handwritten, perfectly and without error. Those in the Centre shops, sold as "amulets" are often sold, as their clerks say, with special words of power and protection written on the side or back: anyone with good Hebrew knows that the "special words of power and protection" mean "unfit for use." They sell holy water. Judaism has no holy water. Water cannot be blessed or cursed, according to Kabbalah. They told one of their "congregants" who had cancer that bathing in their holy water would cure him. He had to purchase close to a thousand cases of their bottled holy water (at $5/bottle) to fill a small pool of the "requisite size" for him to immerse in: he gave them tens of thousands of dollars for their blessing cure. They gave him water, and he died. They tell people that they have no need to learn Aramaic or Hebrew to learn the book Zohar (the central text they claim to use)-- that one need not really understand the words, just pass one's finger over the text, and it will magically imbue one with good energy. They "suggest" that it is best to use their edition of the Zohar, which costs between $250-$425 dollars, when anyone could purchase a perfectly good edition of Zohar in any decent Jewish bookstore for less than $100. They sell all manner of amulets and talismans for exorbitant prices, with little proof of efficacy. And they teach that the Kabbalah itself strips the learner of any need to practice the full range of the traditions and commandments. I don't care who their practitioners or congregants or adherents are, non-Jews or Jews, I don't believe it is acceptable for anyone to support them. They are everything that Kabbalists should not be, and exemplify the worst sorts of perversion of religion. It's people like them that make me regret I don't believe in Gehinnom (Hell), because they should only go burn there...if there were one...which I don't think there is. I spit in front of their headquarters whenever I pass it. They have nothing to do with real Kabbalah or real Judaism. And if Madonna thinks otherwise, the more fool she.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Spiritsoar

Thanks for the very detailed reply. The reason behind my question, is that i'm a very eclectic Wiccan, and I've found the study of Hermetic Qabalah to be very interesting. I can understand what you mean by High and Low, as some Wiccans make the same distiction between High and Low magick, as in ritual to better connect with divine and ritual to effect change in the physical world. It's nice to know that there are some out there who understand that borrowing from other religions is an acceptable practice. I've always sort of viewed most religions as just different paths to the same goal, but many don't quite see it that way.

I'm a little bit of a student of religions in general. One of the things I've been wondering, and part of the reason I took the opportunity to ask, was whether it would be offensive to ask a Jew, or even go to a synagogue, to make the attempt to learn Hebrew. I know I could probably find books on the topic, and probably will. But it seems like they would be the best teachers, especially for context, since I intend to study some of the Jewish texts. I just don't know if they would be willing to teach me considering my desire to study their books of worship and use what I found there out of the context they are comfortable with. On one hand, I can understand that they would think that I was using the material in a way that was not in line with their faith. On the other, I've always thought it appropriate to take wisdom where you could find it, and use different views to help me understand things. From the bit of Qabalah that I've seen, it seems to be a path that many different religions could use to better understand diety.

As for one of the random questions I had (sorry it took this long to respond, I wanted to try to put it together in a coherant fashion, and I've been rather busy) I'm curious about the Jewish lineage. From what you've said, if your mother is a Jew, then you are part of the tribe without having to convert. But conversion is possible, if difficult. So my question is, if a woman converts to Judaism, and then has children, do they fall under the lineage, or is it different because she was a convert?

And thanks for the information on the Kabbalah Centre. I'll file them away in the same category I keep other sham cults like Scientology.

__________________
Veritas Vos Liberabit

Xazy

If she converts her children born after are Jewish, if she converts after she had children her children are not jewish.

levite

My guess would be that most Jewish professional scholars would not have a problem teaching you more about Judaism, or teaching you Hebrew, or teaching you some Jewish texts: Bible, Talmud, philosophy, commentary, liturgy.... In general, Jewish scholars are delighted to teach anyone who wishes to learn. However, as I mentioned, I do think you would find it difficult to find truly qualified teachers of Kabbalah who would be willing to teach you. To be frank, as a Liberal Jew, I find it difficult to find such qualified teachers myself, since they are mostly to be found in the Orthodox community, and thus tend to be disinclined to share their wisdom with one they do not trust to comprehend, guard, and use the knowledge properly. In any case, while it is hardly uncommon for non-Jews to come to Jewish scholars to learn more about Judaism, I might not, were I you, advertise your intent to mine the knowledge given you for resources useful to adopt into Wiccan practice. Some, like me, might have no problem with that; many others likely would be uncomfortable.

Xazy is, of course, quite right. To expand very slightly, identity, in traditional Jewish law is a fairly absolute quality. A Jew by birth is a Jew no matter what they do; if the Jew is a woman, all her children will always be Jewish no matter what she does, no matter what they do. A woman who converts to Judaism is Jewish for the rest of her life, no matter what she does; all her children will always be Jewish no matter what she does, no matter what they do. There is, according to Jewish law, only conversion to Judaism. There is no converting from Judaism-- no leaving the tribe once one is accepted, so to speak.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Sticky

I am not sure if I will make it back here in the next few days (maybe) - Shana Tova.

__________________
Sticky The Stickman

Willravel

What's the most offended you've ever been as a person of the Jewish persuasion?

levite

Good lord, what a question, Will!

Jeez, I dunno....

Getting checked for horns once, as a kid, was offensive, although more surprising than offensive. Having a delegation of church ladies tour my father's synagogue, and ask where we did the sacrificing, like it says in the Bible, was again, offensive, but more surprising than offensive. Having an anti-Semitic kid in fifth grade tell me that he didn't like Jews, and I should "get lost, kite!" (not knowing the word was actually "kike,") was offensive, but mostly pathetic.

But the first time I heard someone use the phrase "He jewed me out of fifty cents," and "He wanted five bucks for it, but I jewed him down," (both in the same five-minute conversation I overheard) was pretty offensive. I still remember the sick feeling it gave me, and how my face got hot, I was so angry.

When I got into it with Patrick Finn, in eighth grade, and he went from calling me "nerd boy," and so forth to calling me kike, Jew-boy, and telling me Hitler should've finished us all off, and it's too bad my grandma didn't end up someone's lampshade, I was more than offended. I got in one of the only fights I've ever been in, and Patrick ended up bloody and walking funny.

When I accidentally got a neo-Nazi Holocaust denier for a college roommate, I was pretty offended. Once I was moved to my own room, I mostly got over it. And once he proved to be a paranoid schizophrenic speed-head, I got over it the rest of the way.

The thing of it is, a lot of stuff like this tends to blend together, and even out. Whenever I hear the Holocaust denied, or Nazi sympathies echoed, or virulently anti-Israel rhetoric employing foul names and disgusting accusations, or so on, I am offended. A lot. At this point, it all offends me about the same, I don't know what would push something out as much more offensive. Anti-Semitism all sucks. Frankly, I guess what really offends me most is that I've lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota; Los Angeles, California; Santa Cruz, California; and Jerusalem; and I found at least some anti-Semitism in every one of those places. At every age I have been, in every year I have lived, there it is. It's not even seventy years after the Holocaust, and there is anti-Semitism still to be found, even in some of the most progressive, Jew-friendly places on earth. And then all of my left-liberal friends (given that I am politically left-liberal, but differ with them in a couple of issues) express surprise when I bring up anti-Semitism in our debates, and tell me they thought that all that was history, ended with the Holocaust....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

Have you ever looked for Patrick on Facebook to see what Walmart he's greeting at?

As a former Christian and current atheist, I never really experienced anything like antisemitism. It wasn't until I had a conversation with a Jewish friend of mine that I realized it's still quite prevalent. It blew my mind. Sorry for rehashing those memories for you, but when I was reading this thread I was reminded of how dumbstruck I was and felt more people needed to know. Antisemitism is alive and well and needs to be confronted and brought into the light.

pai mei

Morning Mr levite

I presume the hate against Jews comes from the fact that they are not fools and do not act like slaves competing with each other, they are more like a tribe / giant family organization / mafia and also have that money thing, like banking it their natural occupation.

Do Jews compete against another the same way I compete against another from my own country to serve a slave master ? And if one wins, f..k the loser, forget him, dead or alive who cares. Or do they care also about the loser, even if they own capitalist enterprises ?

Is there a sense of "us" ? Even if one Jew hires another ?

__________________
Blog
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

Xazy

I have been called a kike before, I have met holacaust deniers, people who assume Jews are all cheap, I have heard you jewed me. But most of these might upset me for their ignorance they rarely offend me, it is when I try to bargain at a store (once at circuit city where I got a receiver for 200 off the listed price) and someone made jewed me comment that bothered me, of course the person who made that comment then wanted the same price I got.

Antisemitism is not just around it seems to be growing.

I think that is a stereotype about Jews which might not be negative but it is still a stereotype. Jews in general (least orthodox ones for sure) since we require the religeous study, and educational is so important tend to be well educated, since we all go to Yeshiva, then do secular studies. I found college easy after all I did in high school. However I would not say we have banking is our natural profession.

With Jews there is always a sense of us, I can travel anywhere in the world meet another Jew and conversation automatically will start up (and we probably know someone who knows someone who knows the other).

pai mei

Xazy, that is good to hear. Still one kind of community in this crazy world. Yes it's bad news for the slaves that hate Jews instead of copying them. No more mindless competition.

People will compete for "fame" - the more they bring to the community the more respected they are, not for food. Like slaves. Worse in fact. Slaves at least did not compete among themselves and knew their situation.

Every nation - working as confederacy of tribes / extended family. Not necessarily at war with other nations. And in the end - one big tribe. On the entire planet. But not as slaves competing - for what ?

__________________
Blog
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

Xazy

To all k'siva v'chasimah tova - a year of gezundt, panassah, yidush nachas and simchas

dlish

ive never heard of the term kike until now.


on the topic of capitalism..

in islam usury is forbidden. dealing in it, profitting from it, trading it, or anything associated with it. from what i understand and heard, that usury is also forbidden in judaism. however, what i have heard is that usury between jews is forbidden, but usury between jews and non-jews is acceptabe.

ive never understood this notion. is this even correct? if so, why is it ok to deal in usury with one person and not another? is there any other similar rules that judaism has?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Xazy

You can not charge interest on a loan to another jew, correct. There are a number of organizations that work as a bank where people put their money in (some are for wedding dresses, baby stuff, and other things people need), and it is borrowed by people who need it for free and then loaned out to others etc...

I can not accept a loan from another Jew either that has interest it is a sin for me to take it as well as to give it.

Torah gives equality since there is no such law for non-Jews, and they would charge Jews interest on their loans, I can take an interest loan from them or give to them. However I can not give a loan with a higher interest rate then they can legally, so if in New York the usury rate is 30% then I can not give or take a 30% loan.

You can charge interest to anyone on a business loan.

levite

Yeah, just to expand very slightly on Xazy's excellent answer about usury, we are permitted to charge non-Jews interest, but in addition to having to follow secular law in regard to maximums and prohibitions of usury, the trend in halakhic literature has been to encourage Jews in the business of moneylending to non-Jews to charge fair rates in general, so that non-Jews will never have cause to accuse Jews of unfair practices in business, and minimal rates to poorer non-Jews, so that they will not associate Jews with increasing their poverty. Those halakhot have never changed, so one hopes that Jews in finance are still following them, although I suppose one never knows....

Since the rise of complex capitalism, the halakhot of business have been interpreted in such ways as to establish loopholes for Jews to own stock in banks and financial agencies and institutions that make loans at interest, some of which may go to Jews, and many of which go to non-Jews. It was deemed that otherwise, Jews in finance would simply be unable to make a living. But Jews are still prohibited from charging interest to one another on personal loans.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

dlish

since im not familiar with the jewish vocab, can someone list out the meanings of the jewish words used? at least in future

for example, i have no idea what halakhot means. i can assume it mean 'rules' but am not sure. in my muslim thread, whenever i used an arabic term i would always try and translate it, so non muslims would understand it.

it would make this place a little more user friendly

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Willravel

Halakha = jewish religious law.

dlish

thanks will!

will why dont you go though 2 pages of posts and pull out all the jewish words out and post their meanings for us

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

levite

Sorry, Dlish! I usually try to translate as I go, if I use any Hebrew/Aramaic/Yiddish words. I must have missed that. I took a quick skim back through the threads, and I think I got everything in context. But if anyone wants to point out something I missed, I will of course translate.

Mea culpa....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

That's not Hebrew!

levite

...rabbi-in-training, graduate in irony....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

levite

Probably won't get a chance to post again for a few days.

Shanah tovah to all of you. Which is to say, "May you have a good year," since tomorrow night through Sunday night is Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, and one of the High Holidays.

She'yehi lachem shanah melei'ah bi'vrachot, semachot, parnassah vehatzlachah, siyata d'shamaya, u'devekut ha-Boreih (BHuB"Sh). Which is to say, may you all have a year filled with blessings, joyful occasions, prosperity and success, the guardianship of Heaven, and increased closeness to the Creator (blessed is he, and blessed is his name).

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

Likewise, levite!

Iliftrocks

Any recommendations for good deli's in the Raleigh, NC area?

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."