Quote:
Originally Posted by dlish
do jews see the middle east conflict as a religious altercation or a political one?
i mean, its a myriad of things really isnt it..
arabs vs jews
muslims vs jews
israel vs arab neighbours
does israel see it as a religious war or is politics and religions intertwined within judaism that it cannot be seperated?
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D, Sticky's answer to this was excellent, I just want to round out a couple of corners. Sticky's absolutely right in that this is quite likely either the most divisive or one of two or three most divisive issues amongst Jews. Everyone has opinions, and feelings run high.
I can tell you that, in my experience, most of the Jews I know do not see the Israel-Palestinian conflict as necessarily Arabs vs Jews (I think there was more of that sentiment in the 60s and 70s, but less and less since peace with Egypt in '79), and surely the majority of the folks I know don't see it as a case of Muslims vs Jews per se, although the use of extremist Islam as a rallying point by groups like Hamas are, unsurprisingly I am sure, very unpopular with Jews. There are a handful of (unfortunately rather vocal) Jews amongst the raving neocons here in the US, and amongst the ultra-Orthodox both here and in Israel, who use religion to justify some really sick views about what ought to be done to the Palestinians, and a point of pride for me as a liberal Jew has always been that such opinions are not only not mainstream in Jewish society, but are widely scorned, condemned, and vituperated by people in all the movements-- both vocally and in print. And I think it is safe to say that many Jews feel like it would be nice to hear the same kind of condemnation and distancing from Palestinians vis-a-vis Hamas and their ilk, and it is hard to feel confident about the chances for future relations with folks who apparently are willing to espouse the views of Hamas and company.
I think most Jews are torn. On the one hand, we have all been taught, and most of us hold some feeling, for the Land of Israel being the gift of God to the Jews. On the other hand, though many of us feel that Israel has a right to defend itself, and is often unfairly criticized for doing so, none of us like bloodshed, and none of us like to see Jewish hands shedding blood, whether it may be justified or no. We want to see Israel whole and safe, and yet we would like to do so as peacefully as possible, and yet we realize that may not always be possible. A great part of the problem, from the Jewish point of view, is that (and this is not just a propaganda line, but a truism) we don't know who to talk to. Everyone who seems to be in a leadership position amongst the Palestinians doesn't appear to be particularly interested in flexible negotiations or guaranteeing Israel's safety. But to most of the Jews I know, that signifies a failure of leadership, not a reason to hate all Palestinians.
All of this, BTW, is entirely separate from Israeli politics and social movements. Israel may be the Jewish State, but it is not a theocracy, and the majority of its citizens are what is known there as "hiloni," which tends to be translated "secular," although it is a term employed to describe the entire spectrum of non-Orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices. The motivations of Israeli governments, politicians, and society, have little, if anything, to do with Judaism-- and that often includes the politics of the ultra-Orthodox.
If you want to know my feelings on the subject, they are these. I am a religious Zionist, and I believe it is very important that there be a Jewish nation in the Land of Israel. That said, I also think that God wants us to find peace between the Children of Isaac and the Children of Ishmael; and if to do so means giving up part of our land, that's probably not too great a price. I won't deny that there are areas in which I am skeptical and unwilling as yet to trust the capabilities of the Palestinian government and the entirety of the people to live in peace, side by side with Israel: I believe in Jewish sovreignty over Jerusalem, and that the suburbs of Jerusalem in Gush Etzion need to stay Israeli; but I believe there has to be a land swap to make things equitable, and the Israeli government needs to offer a permanent assurance of the unshakable right of Muslims to have free access to the Dome of the Rock and the masjid Al-Aqsa (and the masjid al-Umar), and to assure the support of Israel within all reasonable parameters for the oversight of the Haram al-Sharif by the Waqf. I think that the Palestinian people need to do more to voice their rejection of violence and terrorism, and I think the Israelis need to be more frank and open in their confrontation of the effects on the average Palestinian in lack of movement, lack of money, lack of many things, as a result of Israel's security actions. I don't know whether or not all those actions were and are justified, but I do know that there is not enough taking of responsibility by Israel for the effects on the noncombatant populace.
I am split on many things. I don't like the idea of the kind of controls that the Palestinian people live under. And yet I also remember the school years of '01-'02 and '03-'04, when I lost friends to bus and cafe bombings in Jerusalem, the bombing of Hebrew University, and there was fear in every street of the city. And I noted, when I lived in Jerusalem, the year before last, the city was safe. There were only two or three terror alerts, and only one successful terrorist action-- a shooting in a yeshiva, committed by a kid from East J'lem. The fence, as unpopular as it is, works: and I couldn't deny it.
I am no fool. I don't blame all Palestinians for the actions of some-- that's madness. But there is a culture at work amongst the Palestinians right now that is supportive of terrorism, and that causes me so much distrust that often I distrust even those who are trustworthy. And if that's true for me, how much more so for others who are less willing to be open on the subject.
I think the situation is being exacerbated on both sides. Among the Palestinians, I think that the people as a whole are being manipulated and used by corrupt officials and religious radical nutballs, and in their misery and despair they allow themselves to be wielded like a weapon. Among the Israelis, I think that right-wing nutjobs are in control of the Knesset at the moment, who are uninterested in considering fair solutions, and the legitimate fears and questions about security are being wielded like weapons of panic by corrupt neocons and ultra-Orthodox radical nutjobs. I don't know what the solutions are, but they need to come from both sides.
And whatever my beliefs as a religious Zionist concerning the Land of Israel and the Jews' right to it, it still breaks my heart that Jews and Muslims are at each other's throats worldwide over this, when to my mind, the Sons of Abraham should be natural allies and brothers. I hate that there is this major thing that I have to simply agree with my Muslim friends never to discuss. I hate that I can't share their enthusiasm for visiting the Haram al-Sharif, or their worry for Palestinian friends without it being clouded by other issues. And I hate it that they can't share my enthusiasm for Jerusalem and my interest in the fortunes of my friends' vineyards and fromagieries in Gush Etzion without it being clouded for them with other issues. I pray for peace, and I pray that both sides will be guided by God, and I figure that, in the absence of solutions, the best I can do is to remain as flexible as I feel possible, and do my best to not let it affect my relationships with Muslim individuals.
In the end, it is a conflict of nations, not a conflict of religions or peoples. And I hope it is over sooner rather than later.