snowy

Me too, sometimes. My desire to eat meat is also directly affected by my cycle; I can usually make do with non-heme iron (iron from plant sources) most of the month, but when I have my period, my body insists upon heme iron, or else I get very, very irritable.

Jinn, what's it say about type Os? I'm an O+. I'd be interested to know.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Jinn

I believe O was moderate protein, minimal grain and AEROBIC exercise. I was more interested in B (mine) but I remember O was similar except in exercise regimen. I'd have go digging to find that book in my closet, but if I remember I'll look tonight.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Baraka_Guru

From what I understand, this theory is still largely undocumented and lacks clinical trials. I've read more than one source of medical doctors stating that the claims of this diet have no evidence of any certainty.

I've even read that the author has gotten it wrong when it comes to the history and evolution of blood types. It's possible that he's corrected this in subsequent editions, and it's great that there is research going on, especially if there is any validity to it, but there isn't enough credible evidence to suggest that we need to eat these ways based only on what blood type we are.

I used to think this of myself as well. But I figured out that the main reason why I would crave meat is because my diet wasn't balanced or wholesome enough. It's the same idea where people crave sugar only because they haven't been eating enough complex carbohydrates (glucose vs. starches). Your body demands things in response to what is lacking, and these demands are usually reactionary rather than geared towards long-term applications.

I remember on a number of occasions where I'd crave meat ravenously. I think it's because I wasn't eating enough protein in general, or maybe because I wasn't eating enough calories in total. I don't think it could be attributed to any form of protein specifically, whether it be plant or animal derived.

Cravings can also be psychological. We crave things we have enjoyed in the past. I've craved hamburgers and fries a number of times. I don't think there is anything in our evolutionary makeup that would suggest we are programmed to crave hamburgers and fries.

It's interesting, though. I still crave hamburgers and fries, and soy burgers do the trick just as well as cow burgers.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

She's O ....hehe. Interestingly I'm A, but I have more native american inheritance than she does. My wife read that book, and in some ways it made sense for us and in other ways it didn't. Mom figured I would be O by what I eat, but it turned out to be the exact opposite. That's when we quit discussing the book....haha.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

snowy

I will admit that one of these is as pleasing to me as meat, so long as it has Tillamook cheddar cheese on it:



There is nothing I love more in life than a juicy cheeseburger. With these, I can pretty much eat cheeseburgers any time I want. I don't, but I could. In the interest of eating locally, I also substitute the local vegetarian restaurant's Sunburgers occasionally, but I do love Morningstar Farms burgers, corn dogs, chick'n tenders, etc. Yum.

And don't get me started on how much I love Quorn. You couldn't eat Quorn, Baraka, as it has egg white as a binder and therefore is not vegan, but because it's made of mycoprotein, it has a similar mouthfeel to meat, unlike many other meat substitutes.

Talk about a threadjack, but forgive me; I think it's important to address the role meat substitutes can play in a person's diet, even if they aren't vegetarian.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Vigilante

Surprisingly I used to eat veggie burgers when I worked in the field. We had a lab with a freezer and I would grab some patties out of there, grab a coarse mesh plate that we use to wash dirt samples, and a pot of water to go over a hotplate. I'd put the mesh over the pot, boil the water, and put the frozen patty on the mesh. Oh and I'd go out in the field first and collect a few large dockweed plants and boil those at the same time as greens. I could put both greens (after being pressed with paper towel) and patty on some bread and have a sandwich right there. It got me through the day, because working so hard out there, alone, you need some backup food when you get hypoglycemic. I never ate the caterpillars that came with the greens, because there was alot of pesticide used out there and it tends to collect in fatty tissues over plant tissues and biomagnify.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Baraka_Guru

Yes, there is now an amazing selection of vegetarian foods in pretty much every major grocery store, but it's true that vegans need to be careful to ensure there aren't any egg or dairy ingredients. (Honey is an issue as well.)

An example of this is the soy cheese slices you see everywhere here. They're normally by the Yves brand deli meats. (I'm not sure if the cheese is Yves or not.) If you look at the ingredients of the cheese, everything is fine except that they've included casein, which is a milk protein.

There are other products out there, such as block soy cheese in health food stores, but they're expensive. Well, so is regular cheese too, I guess....

Anyway, I can do without cheese, especially when you discover such things as miso gravy and whatnot to put on your burgers.

There is little more rewarding to me than eating a fully loaded grain burger on some nice bread--especially if some avocado has found its way on there somewhere.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aberkok

Well said. I used to believe I needed meat when I really just craved it. It actually has taken the better part of a year to lose all my cravings animal flesh and secretions.

__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Vigilante

No honey?!? Oh man.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Baraka_Guru

Replaced with cravings for fried tofu and soy milk lattes.

Which reminds me: I've finally mastered my new machine; you must come over and see how frothy I can get that Silk brand.

Molasses, corn syrup, barley syrup, rice syrup, maple syrup, agave nectar, and sugar of many varieties...what more do you need?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

Honey.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Frosstbyte

All you need to survive is an IV drip with all the necessary amino acids, vitamins and sugar, so let's stop with the "need" nonsense as an argument for why being a vegetarian or vegan somehow makes more sense or is better than eating meat or animal products.

I eat meat and animal products because I think they're delicious. I also eat plenty of non-animal products, because I think they're delicious as well. Honey, especially good honey that's locally produced instead of mass produced, tastes incredibly different and has a completely different mouthfeel than any of the other sugars you mentioned. I don't need to eat any of them, but I value the variety and the ability to eat them when I want to do so.

Vigilante

On that note, it seems to me like the vegan wants to eat the stuff you find on the Nebuchadnezzar on The Matrix. Artificial and everything you need, nothing hurt in the process.

Well, every other animal on this planet hurts something, and some of them would gladly hurt us. It's the circle of life, which is why I've never tried or wanted to be separate from it.

I know that sticking cows in a barn "cell" to keep the meat tender is not the circle of life either, but aside from those situations is more what I'm referring to.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Baraka_Guru

I don't think the "need nonsense" is a good argument for being a vegetarian or vegan. I see the "need nonsense" on both sides of the fence. I don't think it's a good argument for anything on its own.

For the record, I used "what more do you need?" as a figure of speech.

But I commend you for being forthright on your dietary choices.

Which vegan are you talking about? I don't recall them eating grain burgers with the works or drinking soy lattes on the Nebuchadnezzar. Have a look at a vegan cookbook the next time you're in a bookstore or the library. There is little artificial found in them; some have nothing artificial at all.

Don't feed me that "circle of life" line. Even Buddhists acknowledge that they can't live a day without causing harm to some organism or another. (Our bodies are rife with organisms that we kill on a daily basis.)

That's not the point. The point of a vegan diet includes doing what you can to minimize needless suffering. We know we kill organisms by boiling vegetables, and that many beings die as a result of the farming process.

We're not attempting the impossible here; we're doing what we reasonably can to be compassionate.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

Well I'm still trying to understand the vegan mindset, so bear with me. I know people have different motivations for what they do but as a general rule, do vegans eat as such to minimize death, or it is health? Might it be both, but one takes precedence over the other? Are there any other factors? I'm not going on the offensive here, at least not trying to. I'm truly ignorant of why.

For me, unless God popped down from the heavens and told me so in a very obvious manner, or unless my doctor told me I was deathly allergic, I would not give up a little honey every now and then for anything. Especially on a tortilla with a little butter...mmmm. ...sorry, I'm a little hungry. In that case I'm sure a few bees are killed during harvest (just sliding them off the honeycomb), but does it warrant a complete boycott of honey? Isn't that a little...severe? Or is there another reason? That's what I'm trying to learn now.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

CinnamonGirl

I have a multivitamin, but honestly, I forget to take it over half the time. When I do, I only take one (the "serving size" is three.) It's just sort of an "insurance" type thing, for days when I don't have time to cook, or maybe don't eat as well as I should (like football games, where I'm eating pizza and drinking beer.)

I eat a lot healthier now that I'm vegetarian than I ever did when I ate meat. There are other factors at work besides going veggie (I pay more attention to what I eat, and don't eat processed foods nearly as much, for starters), but by eliminating meat, I had to branch out from the "meat and potatoes" meals that I was used to. I wouldn't touch broccoli a few years ago, and now it's a staple.

So, yeah, by eating a larger variety of food, I don't have to worry that I'm lacking on something. I get calcium from my orange juice and soymilk, plus veggies like spinach and broccoli; iron from cereal, beans, pumpkin seeds... also, vitamin C helps absorb iron, and I know I get plenty of that from OJ and strawberries (yum )

It's not a boring or unhealthy way to eat, unless of course, you do it wrong. Cookies and potato chips can be vegetarian, but they certainly aren't healthy.

Oh, and something else I was thinking of (this is getting long, but I haven't been on in a couple days, so I'm just now reading the posts after mine): I have cravings for meat, but I've always found something non-meatish to satisfy the cravings. Gardenburger Riblets are awesome, for example (although I don't eat them often.) My boyfriend came up with an awesome tofu recipe that tastes like buffalo wings.

The cravings don't happen very often, though... mostly I want things, as Baracka pointed out, like soy lattes, or my veggie/pasta stir-fry. Mmmmmm.

__________________
"...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world."


"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

genuinegirly

I don't have cravings for meat. I don't enjoy meat-flavored soy-ish burgers. They are passable when nothing else is available, but barely.

Great question!

I take an iron suppliment once daily during the week leading up to my monthly flow. I have done this since I started menstrating, because anemia is a common concern among the women in my family. This is not new since becoming vegetarian.

One month ago I began taking a women's daily multivitamin that is catered to healthy skin, nails, and hair.

My calcium sources: cheese, plain nonfat yogurt, whole milk, calcium-enriched orange juice on occasion. Before I became vegetarian, I did not consume as much dairy as I do presently, so I took calcium suppliments. A few months into the vegetarian diet, I realized the calcium supplimets were overkill and cut them out.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Baraka_Guru

It differs person to person, but I imagine most vegans would say both. Many view compassion as #1 and health as an awesome side effect.

There are other issues as well, such as ecological impact, food security, economics, human rights, etc.

I don't blame you, though. Many find the honey thing to be a bit extreme. But look at it this way. Vegans make simple choices to minimize the harm brought upon the animal kingdom. If you look at the honey industry, hive farms are quite extensive. Many of them essentially cull up to 20% of their farms each year for various reasons, many hives are destroyed accidentally. The other issue is that bees are often transported great distances (for them) for various production reasons, which is also harmful if not deadly to many of them.

Finally, honey is produced by bees at a great expense of labour. They do this to produce food for their colony. We humans allow them to do this simply so we can take it from them. We also take wax, pollen, royal jelly (the queen's food), and resin.

It's simple. Vegans wish to take no part in this industry, as it can be quite destructive to millions of insects.

The alternatives are enjoyed widely. I'm a big fan of molasses, agave nectar, and maple syrup.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

Thanks Baraka. I understand now, and I respect the choice more. Honestly. I can see why vegans and vegetarians in general, then, talk about growing their own food. I can tell you now, working directly in agricultural research for years (and maybe again soon since my IT jobs have disappeared) that one week of treatment in a field kills vastly more insects than an entire harvest of honey on a farm could ever hope of killing in terms of bees. And that's on a small farm, I'm not even beginning to touch on the big operations.

It might also explain why my sister took up buddhism, however like I said before, she's more into the "fad" than the actual practice, at least towards other humans. She's a hateful creature, makes me as a teenager look nice LOL.

Thanks also Cinnamon and Genuine, it gives me more insight into how people can do the diet, and why the result can be so varied.

I do think there is a genetic component to this as well, making it easier for some and harder for others. It makes sense, but of course isolating the factors and being able to read someone's dietary needs through DNA is the holy grail of all dieters the world over.... and it's not going to happen anytime soon.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

snowy

One thing I've learned from the many, many vegetarians and vegans I've discussed the topic with is that each one has a different reason for why they've chosen that lifestyle. Some reasons may be remarkably similar, but there is always a bit of individual difference. For instance, my boyfriend the vegetarian is such because of the environmental impact of meat. He's not as interested in the other reasons for being vegetarian, but that isn't to say they have zero impact on his choice. I also once had a vegetarian roommate who couldn't care less about animals; she just didn't like the taste of meat (weird, I know).

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

vanblah

I am an omnivore (the same as most human beings). Omnivore simply means that we can eat pretty much anything. However, I CHOOSE to be vegetarian. I'm not vegan ... I do eat dairy ... but only regional free-range. Still, what has that got to do with it? It's still taking a potential life or denying life ... or hurting some animal.

My reasons for being vegetarian are just that: MY REASONS. Why would I even begin to suggest that my choice is right for anyone else? Why would I expect anyone to make concessions for me because of my choice? My wife and daughter are NOT vegetarian.

My in-laws wanted to take us out to eat last night. Where did we go? Outback Steakhouse because that's where they wanted to go. Did I whine and complain about it? No ... I had a salad. If I wanted to take them to a vegetarian restaurant (on my tab) would they complain? No ... because we have respect for each other.

I feel you on the whole sanctimony and arrogance issue, luciferase ... I can't stand when ANYONE gets on a soapbox.

Yes, humans are omnivore and that is how we evolved. Humans also evolved as opportunistic eaters. We ate what was available ... locally. If that means we do without one kind of food over another then that's what we did. We are cunning though ... we realized we could herd our live animals and take them with us to greener pastures. Then we had the best of both worlds. Eventually the industrial revolution made it even easier for us to have our "food" delivered to our front door ...

This particular problem in the U.S. is not the vegetarianism vs. carnivore/omnivore diet being better or worse ... it's marketing. Meat sells.

Sorry if my ideas are disjointed ... I'm at work and typing quickly.

smooth

my wife and I take no artificial supplements. we've been on and off pure vegetarians over the years, and I grew up with some of my friends being vegan. an entire family, my friend, his two sisters, little brother, and mother were vegan and their father was a rabid meat eater. So I got some crash courses in the major and subtle differences in their diets, health reasons, moral reasons, and social reasons, etc. my mom raises me on whole foods for health reasons. I enjoy meats, grilling, and can eat hamburgers every and all day...and not gain a pound

there's a nice middle ground, if you can't find free range meats, you should be able to find kosher sources. then when your family comes over for the holidays and someone starts to discuss the problems with the meat industry and even health reasons, you can point to the turkey and say well I hear your concerns and they're valid, but we've enjoyed our holiday turkey for hundreds of years and decades in this family, so we made sure to buy a kosher turkey

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman