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05-30-2008, 04:33 AM | #1 (permalink) | ||||
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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US Customs- An "international void" devoid of Rights- Search and Seizure of Computers
I have been reading up on some Customs policies, and am quite disturbed. US Customs has a policy that allows Customs agents to seize and search anyone's computer's contents (anyone entering the US, [anchorlink="Article1"]1st[/anchorlink] and [anchorlink="Article2"]2nd article[/anchorlink]). It was explained to me that all Customs checkpoints are somehow classified as "international voids devoid of the laws of the land." How is this possible?- - - - - - - - - - - - - Now this has me outraged. I have legitimate reasons to have security measures on my computer. Cyberspace is not safe and there is little any government can do to protect the public, but make the public knowledgeable about how to stop it. I encrypt my hard drives to secure my data. I use encrypted password managers, and memorize nothing less than a 25 digit password (it isn't that hard with a mnemonic device). I even make it a pain for my friends to borrow my music! I use OGG Vorbis lossless WavPack images.- - - - - - - - - - - - - Someone like me is suspect to doing illegal things because I know and implement many security measures. This is so backwards from the Rights we have. For them to suspect me is like being suspect of a crime because one does not willingly give up one's 4th Amendment right. It seems we are just giving away our Rights with this mentality that, "I've got nothing to hide, and I don't want to be bothered." Yes it is a hassle, but we have these Rights, and goddamnit we are supposed to use them!- - - - - - - - - - - - - Unfortunately, I have two lines of inquiry. One, how did we let this happen? Two, what can I legally do/say at the moment of inspection to hinder this? Thoughts, advice, or other welcome. - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Last edited by Hain; 06-03-2008 at 02:49 AM.. Reason: because I really like Tears for Fears |
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05-30-2008, 05:20 AM | #2 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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well, is a customs checkpoint inside or outside the space of the country?
is a border inside or outside? the source of this is the status of a border zone.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-30-2008, 05:38 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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rb, that's correct, the customs area is NOT the United States of America.
In fact the Welcome to the United States signs are after you've completed immigration and customs. You are not allowed to talk on the phone, you are not allowed to be yelling at customs officials. This isn't just the United States, this is also Iceland, Czech Republic, Germany, UK, India, Philippines, Singapore, and Spain (countries I've happened to enter.) My thinking is really more about something being on a CD, USB stick, memory card, microdot, bar code, 3d code, coded photo, and other various coding systems that allow information to be passed simply and easily with little chance of detection. If I was to take my laptop with TFP in the cache, and I am searched I'd be stopped for trafficking pornography in Singapore without a doubt. Again, I only take my computer when it suits my needs. Ignorance of the laws doesn't mean that I'm absolved of them. Besides, I'm a TRAVELLER, there's plenty of resources to get my things done without the need to lug a 10lb bag that has sensitive data for me to be concerned about losing and ruining my vacation.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-30-2008, 07:25 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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I wonder how they will determine which files are copyright infringing content and which ones are not? This seems like quite a lot to ask of a border guard. Will they just confiscate your computer, memory stick, etc..until you show up with receipts to prove you purchased the content?
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05-30-2008, 07:33 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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actually for DVDs and CDS they just confiscate them even if you have a reciept showing you bought them from a major store. There are warnings from the state department from known areas warning people to not purchase things that will be confiscated, such as pirated movies, DVDs, Ivory products, drugs, alcohol, furs, etc.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
05-30-2008, 08:15 AM | #6 (permalink) | |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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Quote:
I have added a <a href="#article4">4th article</a>, one from PopSci about this Copyright security. It is much shorter than the 3rd article. I just cannot fathom how anyone allowed any of these laws to be passed. Last edited by Hain; 05-30-2008 at 08:24 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-01-2008, 05:31 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: No fixed address, U.K, Oz, EU
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Guilty until proven innocent, it used to be innocent until proven guilty.
Where have your rights gone ? The freedoms your forefathers fought for do they mean nothing now ?
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Trouble for some. Waste some time here. |
06-01-2008, 06:42 AM | #8 (permalink) |
I'll ask when I'm ready....
Location: Firmly in the middle....
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Interesting. Now, I'm not an expert, but I am taking Applied Authority for a federal LEO position currently, and as I understand it, the purpose of the border checks is to ensure that a) no contraband is smuggled into the country, and b) all merchandise is properly declared, and c) all persons apply for admission (or prove admissibility) into the U.S..
This topic (in general, not the specific) has been debated by the courts since international trade was conducted via wooden ships with a lot of sails, and for all the arguments, the practice of searching vessels, cargo, and other containers for the aforementioned reason is still perfectly legal and perfectly in line with what our founding fathers had envisioned in the Constitution. (Well except for the admissibility part, that didn't happen until later. Even so, the courts say it's in agreement with the Constitution.) If you think about it, electronic devices could be considered a "vessel", and anyone could bring software (aka, merchandise) in on an electronic device and easily sidestep the entire merchandising process. What does this mean to us? That as long as this is enforced, our economy (as well as many other economies), which is based on a significant amount of international trade, will remain on good footing. If anyone could bring anything into any country, the whole system "could" collapse, and bring even more hard times to not only the U.S., but smaller countries that have limited, but necessary, export operations. I'd also like to point out that the 4th amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. Is it unreasonable for any entity to protect it's interests at its' borders?
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"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me- "Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown- DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer- Last edited by Push-Pull; 06-01-2008 at 06:54 AM.. |
06-01-2008, 08:15 AM | #9 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
if you were to assume innocent until proven guilty then you must be for open and porous borders. Quote:
Note: in Singapore you cannot bring in chewing gum, even cigarette cessation program gum. They look for chewing gum as part of their contraband search in customs. This is in the early 90s and the ban on chewing gum is still in effect today.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 06-01-2008 at 08:35 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-01-2008, 11:55 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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So how do the laws work in this "void" - if you popped a customs official, how can you be charged with the crime on the one hand and yet not be given the protection of the law in another instance?
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06-01-2008, 11:59 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
after the process, they can and be deported. based on what people are stating in this thread, then drugs, meat, vegetables shouldn't be inspected nor confiscated upon entry. some of you really should try some international travel... Immigration officers do not have to allow you entry into any country. they can deny you entry for many reasons, including but not limited to assualting an immigration or customs officer.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-01-2008, 07:16 PM | #12 (permalink) | ||
<3 TFP
Location: 17TLH2445607250
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Quote:
Actually, that's not true anymore... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3512498.stm Quote:
Regardless, this is the law of a different country. Can anyone show evidence that Customs checkpoints are not within the US? I believe they are. Generally a US Customs checkpoint (say on the Detroit or Port Huron side in Michigan from Canada) is certainly on US soil. Is the Customs checkpoint at JFK somehow not on US soil? It is inside of the airport, surrounded by US soil. I don't understand exactly... As for the data contents of your laptop, where are the limiting factors? Are there any? For US citizens, on US soil, you should be protected from unlawful search and seizure, regardless of "special" laws for Border agents. If there is SUSPICION of unlawful activity, then perhaps you are now a legal target for search. Random searches are bullshit, and are a big stumbling block for the TSA. We'll see how long all this really lasts once the current administration is pushed out. It's gonna be ugly for another 8-10 years, but things are either going to get "fixed" and be better, or things are going to get very, very bad!
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06-01-2008, 10:45 PM | #13 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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xepherys, you've expressed exactly what I feel.
I have been trying to formulate a reasons why searching for contraband at Customs is OK but not computers. And I can't have it either way- at least not with any convincing arguments. The only thing I believe is that physical contraband poses a clear physical harm, if I restrict contraband to drugs, alcohol, weapons, Ivory and fur products (profiteering from animal cruelty), foreign plants and animals (can disrupt foreign ecosystems), ... It is not convincing, like I said. So either contraband shouldn't be searched for, or I need a more convincing argument. Something other than, "It isn't real, man!" and, "It makes me mad!" I want my personal information to remain exactly that- personal. Having to decrypt my stuff or give Customs my passwords defeats that purpose. |
06-02-2008, 05:52 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
TSA is not the same as Customs Agents, they may report to the same Homeland Security, but they aren't the same group of people. TSA is for departure and Customs is for entry. TSA does not check your bags when you arrive at your destination.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-02-2008, 06:01 AM | #16 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
Dept of Homeland Security But note that it does not call the group US Customs, Border Security, and TSA another example of foriegn soil within US soil is the United Nations Building. It is on the island of Manhattan, in New York City, in New York State, in the United States of America, but it is considered foreign soil and the NYPD, NY State Troopers, and FBI have no jurisdiction on that small parcel of land. Here is what the customs officials specifically state for travellers inbound to the US. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 06-02-2008 at 06:10 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-02-2008, 06:20 AM | #17 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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I figured Customs and TSA were independent (I had not actually considered TSA to be in this at all). It still says U.S. Customs and Border Protection. The Department of Homeland Security runs the US CBP.
To me, this still means that they are US Government employees and should be subject to US laws- giving those wishing to enter the USA the same protections granted in the Bill of Rights. CBP agents are paid by the US Government. If CBP is not giving these entities these rights, then aren't these agents being paid to deny these these entities' rights? A weak argument at best, since we can't define where US soil begins. Regardless, they are agents of the United States government and everything the USA stand for. This next statement might be something I would read on "Things not in the US Constitution.com" but I swore there was a written law that states the US Government cannot take away these rights from people. |
06-02-2008, 06:31 AM | #18 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I would imagine that this delves into the structures that were created pre US Constitution.
Note that US laws and the US Constitution didn't materialize out of thin air but are rooted in international and maritime law.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
06-02-2008, 07:31 AM | #19 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin
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[QUOTE=Cynthetiq]ask any illegal alien that has been arrested. they still are given due process and the same protections of the US Constitution.
[\QUOTE] Really? What about the guy Nicholas Corbett blew away? Besides, how would you know that they were given the "protections of the US constitution" if they were, say, shipped to Guantanamo or another shining pearl on our global gulag? "For purposes of national security we could neither confirm nor deny that they were present in any US operated facility, nor could we confirm or deny that they have been renditioned to a third party." The Bush cabal has decided that in the current state of exception, the constitution allows them to do whatever they want. Considering what has happened to US citizens like Jose Padilla and perfectly "legal" aliens like Mahir Arar ("intercepted" on his way home to Canada and shipped off to Syria to be tortured), i'd have to say that they aren't just blowing smoke. They will indeed do whatever they want. Supreme court? Those are the guys & gals who said that keeping to some bureaucratic timetable was more important than counting the votes, so hey, let's give it to Monkey Boy. Besides, who wants to wait 4-5 years in the hold of a prison ship or in a tin shed on an airbase in Poland waiting for people like Scalia and Thomas to decide that geez, maybe they did go too far this time? Keep in mind that with passports (which are gov. property and always revocable) and the no-fly list and other restrictions and protocols on travel, governments control who travels. Maybe it's not spelled out in US constitution, but travel is a pretty basic human right. It's listed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights & the Intl. Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. However, these days, for all intents and purposes, you have to have their permission to travel. The no-fly list is fairly loose now, but it's pretty easy to see how this could become much more restrictive and/or expanded to other modes of travel. So, no, things are not hunky dory. |
06-02-2008, 07:41 AM | #20 (permalink) | |||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
If you're dragging Guantanamo Bay into the conversation, then it's only right that it's not as simple as you are stating. Quote:
You are free to travel, you aren't free to ENTER into a country. There is a very large difference. People have been turned away by immigration officers from many countries that deny people entry. But they are not barred from travel.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-02-2008, 08:19 AM | #21 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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Quote:
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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06-02-2008, 11:34 AM | #22 (permalink) | |||
Addict
Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin
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Quote:
Right? One of the current justifications for what goes on the southern border is that so-called "terrorists" might sneak into the US via Mexico. That's one reason why Guantanamo and so-called "national security" issues are very much relevant to the discussion. Another is that the borders have been militarised, and constitutionally speaking, that gives the president more than the usual executive control. According to the Bush cabal's interpretation of the constitution, in the current state of exception, they, as agents of the Commander in Chief, have "broad discretion" to do whatever the hell they want. See section V of their 2002 memo on torture. Quote:
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You must have a passport to travel, but they don't have to issue you a passport. Furthermore, the one you have can be revoked if you do something they don't like. (Bobby Fischer had his taken away for playing chess in Yugoslavia and being an all-around jerk.) So, no, you aren't exactly free to travel. Remember it wasn't so long ago that a passport was not always necessary, not even for overseas trips. Last edited by guyy; 06-02-2008 at 11:39 AM.. |
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06-02-2008, 11:38 AM | #23 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
you must have a passport to enter other countries... nothing to do with TRAVEL. and again, NO FLY doesn't mean you cannot drive, cannot hop on a bus, take a train. So far as I can tell your OMFG YOU CAN'T TRAVEL!!! is just chicken little screaming... besides the point most US people haven't left 50 miles of where they were born.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 06-02-2008 at 11:40 AM.. |
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06-02-2008, 11:45 AM | #24 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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Quote:
All roads lead to Iceland, you know.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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06-02-2008, 11:55 AM | #25 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Those must be pretty wet roads, what with Iceland being an island and all....
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
06-02-2008, 12:02 PM | #26 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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he could have driven ...
there are many modes of getting to Iceland without any checks for passport because of Schengen and EU reciprocity, much like being able to get from state to state without need for identification as you drive.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
06-02-2008, 12:35 PM | #27 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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I had never heard of Al-Marri, and I think it is an out-right scandal. If they have so much evidence against him- put him on trial! It was intelligence that caught him, not searching his laptop at customs.
As an after thought: if this guy was such a computer expert, studying and all, why wouldn't he have taken rudimentary precautions to prevent evidence found on him? It doesn't specify he used anything to keep secrets, and that a search found all this incriminating evidence on him... |
06-02-2008, 12:46 PM | #28 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
We decided we didn't want Bobby Fischer, and they did. We like to have Hell's Angels, and they don't.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-02-2008, 01:05 PM | #29 (permalink) |
Husband of Seamaiden
Location: Nova Scotia
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Just throwing my 2cents worth into the fray, but as most of you know I work on cargo ships that enter the USA on a daily basis to unload various goods. When US Customs comes on board my CANADIAN registered, crewed, flagged ship, they still have the ability (might is right, remember) to search and seize computer equipment, DVD/VHS movies, CD's, or anthing else shiny that catches their eye.
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I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321 |
06-02-2008, 01:20 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
The thing is that there is a very serious smuggling problem with container ships (exclusive of bulk carriers like yours Luci). That's a global problem, not a US-only one. It's how a large percentage of drugs are moved globally as well as many other bulk items. That said, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to deal with US Customs on a daily basis like you do. The blue water guys only have to deal with them every few months or weeks (depending on schedules), but ships like yours must lose thousands in costs every season.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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06-13-2008, 06:06 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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One for the Home Team
Some news that caught my eye: two groups are fighting to have the ruling (that Customs and border agents can search electronic medium without probably cause) reversed.
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06-25-2008, 12:57 AM | #32 (permalink) | ||
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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//fingers crossed//
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Tags |
computers, customs, devoid, international, rights, search, seizure, void |
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