The true meaning of "Santa Christmas"...

[analog]

(Right off the bat, what we're discussing here is SANTA christmas- the secular, non-religious portions of the santa christmas mythology, having nothing whatsoever to do with any religious observations of Christmas.)

The thought that prompted this discussion:

Lying to kids is stupid, even in the case of "santa clause". There's just no reason for it, and there's a huge difference between keeping something terrible from them (like Uncle Jimmy blew his head off with a 12-gauge) until they're old enough to understand, and blatantly creating an elaborate lie about "Santa". People want to get the most enjoyment out of having little kids as they can, so they create a fantasy they can latch onto which gives them all kinds hope, wonder, and joy- all of which is motivated by lying.

Here's the thing, though...

What's wrong with "Santa" as an icon, known not to be real? The whole point of the Santa Christmas (not religious christmas... just the secular santa portions) mythology is the spirit of giving, not receiving (or it should be), helping your fellow human being, and spreading good will and joy. That's a moral and a value lesson. That's a lesson in helping, sharing, and caring- not getting things, wanting things, and ignoring those less fortunate. Christmas is (and has been for many years, really) just a commercial holiday... for far too many, it has become something of greed, of material things, and selfishness. If the point of "Santa" is to spread good will, joy, togetherness, caring, giving, etc... then what are we all doing?

Questions for discussion:

1. Why do we lie to kids about Santa, when Santa as a symbol for doing good is a million times more productive and more valuable of a lesson than just giving them a fake fat guy to worship? I think it's because parents are selfish and want to squeeze out as much child-like behavior out of their children as they can. There are lots of other ways to promote imagination in children, and it seems crass to use a lie to accomplish that feat.

2. Have any of you thought about it and decided that the whole Santa Christmas thing has become a commercial enterprise, and stopped celebrating it?

As for me, I celebrate actual Christmas, as a Catholic... baby jesus, shephard, wise guys, the whole deal. I don't celebrate or support anything to do with Santa Christmas- I won't buy or otherwise support any "santa" merchandise (which goes for reindeer stuff, etc). I don't listen to Santa songs. I'm sure there are several secular Christmas songs that sneak into my listening habits (on the extreme rare occasion that I actually feel like Christmas music at Christmas time), but pretty much i'm not interested in commercial christmas music... stuff about frosty, the elves, etc.

[Redlemon]

Section 1: My son is 5. We think he believes in Santa, but he might be figuring it out. We've decided to let him decide for himself; if he asks, we will ask him what he thinks about it. Why do we pretend? I'm not sure, but I won't be upset when he figures it out for himself. We also "lie" about the Tooth Fairy.

On the flip side, we've noticed that he's been pretty stressed lately. He's had a couple of "pee in pants" accidents this week, which are often an indicator of stress. At dinner last night, we could see the worry again, so we started to talk about it, and he was really concerned that he hasn't been good enough. So, my wife "called" Santa's voicemail to leave a message to put our son on the "good" list.

2. I think it is time that there become two distinct holidays. The first will be Xmas, a secular winter party with all the presents and pretty things, still on December 25th. The second will be Christ's Birthday, a somber reflection celebrated in church, sometime in the month of March.

I am ex-Catholic, but as a choral singer I strongly prefer the sacred Christmas music.

[Mister Coaster]

Theres NO SANTA????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

I see nothing wrong with hope, wonder and joy in the belief of a fictional character. Bugs Bunny is fictional and he makes kids happy, should we put the kabosh on cartoons because they are not real either? Lighten up, dude.

[blahblah454]

I was actually thinking about this the other day. I was thinking that when I have children I won't ever let them believe in Santa as a real being. Santa will just be a made up person and I will let them know that. The whole Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy... all that crap, gimme a break.

[canuckguy]

i can see getting angry about the whole commercialism of the "day" but not sure why lying is an issue, seems harsh to call it lying like we are some how harming the children. I don't think telling them about santa is so bad, i would prefer it maybe if we were let say treating it like a thanksgiving and making it about the family time and food, and not gift giving.

i hate that it is turned into a money driving event but i understand that it helps the economy and makes the little one smile, so i go with the norm. but dude, lying? just seems like you have a hate on for kids. not sure i understand this view point.

[mixedmedia]

I told my youngest daughter that Santa wasn't real at about the age of 4-5 when she started asking a lot of questions about the logistics required for Santa to actually be able to pull off that overnight world tour. Lying about the existence of Santa seemed innocent enough, but creating an entire work of fiction about where her presents came from was a little too much. I think she already knew anyway and was just testing me, lol.

My older kids just seemed to grow out of it. I don't know if they ever believed it.

I think if kids still believe once they get a grip on the world and their place in it, then they're just wanting to believe or pretending to believe for their parents.

[MSD]

Commercializing a holiday and separating it from its religious roots is inevitable. People who want to keep to only the religious side can do so, and everyone else can pump cash into the economy, leading to increased tax revenue, thereby giving the state more money to pay me to do the same thing. I should be on the third year in a row of getting a raise that beats inflation.

[Strange Famous]

in my opinion Santa is a harmless story that brings joy to millions of children.

The commodification of the family relationship is a separate process. Santa could bring one small gift or a sack of presents, and is equally valid as a character. It is the capitalist system which induces the children to expect a sack of presents.

My father used to get fruit from Santa, and was perfectly happy with it - because he had no other expectations... and the Santa story brought joy to him.

Christmas may now be seen as a Christian celebration, but we should not forget that actually it is a rather older one.

[telekinetic]

My children will never believe in Santa, Tooth Fairy, etc. Why on earth should I lie to them? There is enough mystery and wonder in the real world without creating fake lies.

They will know the stories, but not until they are old enough to understand that they ARE stories.

[analog]

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Theres NO SANTA????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

I see nothing wrong with hope, wonder and joy in the belief of a fictional character.

Neither do I- I never said anything about taking away fictional characters. However- Santa is sold, to children, as a NON-fictional character.

Bugs Bunny is fictional and he makes kids happy, should we put the kabosh on cartoons because they are not real either? Lighten up, dude.

In fact, I specifically said Santa was a good character for promoting caring, sharing, giving, etc., and that he'd be MORE effective as a fictional character of morality rather than someone purported to be real. I'm trying to eliminate his status as a "real" person, not his entire existence.

I'm encouraging the use of Santa... just not as a lie. Anything that gives wonder, imagination, hope, joy, etc., to kids is great, and I fully support that. I think Santa would be BETTER if he weren't sold to kids as a lie... because when it's discovered he's a lie, do you really think kids hold onto the morality and value lessons as strongly?

I don't know where you got the idea I was trying to get rid of Santa, but you'd do well to better understand my point before telling me to lighten up. I'm trying to promote the idea of Santa as fiction, not real, which I think would actually be a BETTER moral lesson, since it doesn't have the logically retarded drawback of being a complete lie to achieve it.

I just don't see where a character who stands for a good, moral lesson and positive influence should be a lie. Fictional, sure. Absolutely. But you're selling him as real, not fictional...

[Mister Coaster]

Thanks for the response...

The thing is, if you come out and say something along the lines of "You lie to your kids if you tell them Santa is real." is a tough accusation. There is nothing wrong with your reasoning of saying Santa is fictional from the get go, but I personally don't see telling the story of Santa to a 2 year old is "lying." I just don't see any harm in the belief in Santa as a child. Hey, if nothing else I can get my kid to straighten up for fear that Santa is watching. (technically true since we parents are Santa)

In your opinion, is it possible to tell a fictional story without lying?

[analog]

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

I personally don't see telling the story of Santa to a 2 year old is "lying."

I'm not sure what else it could be called- it's presenting a fictional story as fact. That's pretty much a lie by any definition.

In your opinion, is it possible to tell a fictional story without lying?

Telling a fictional story as fiction is never lying. Telling a fictional story, and presenting it as fact or reality- that's always lying.

[snowy]

I don't lie about Santa. But I do weave a wonderful yarn about how Santa is the expression of peace, love, and understanding, and that is where his magic comes from.

I also tell stories about the expressions of Santa around the world, from St. Nicholas to Sinterklaas to the Kristkind. I also discuss with the kids how Christmas is celebrated around the world, from Sinterklaasdag in the Netherlands to the importance of Three Kings Day in Latin American cultures. We've talked about the pagan origins of Christmas, what Yule is, and the impotance of the winter solstice, as well as all of the pagan symbols that are incorporated into the Christian holiday, and what they mean. We've also discussed how the secular holiday of Christmas came into existence, as well as the Christian origins.

From there, I allow the kids to draw their own opinions about Santa Claus and Christmas. Keep in mind, I'm not inundating these kids with information, rather, when they have questions, I answer them. Given that kids start getting worked up about Christmas shortly after Halloween, I've been answering various questions since the beginning of November. Lots of questions. I'm also not trying to persuade them to believe one thing or another. I'd really prefer for them to make up their own minds about these sorts of things.

[MexicanOnABike]

i like the whole Santa story line. it's fun. if kids receive toys from only parents, they'll expect toys all year long. We only got awesome toys like legos or toy trucks and stuff like that when santa brought them. it was awesome. clothes and other educational gifts were from my parents or grandparents and that was fine.

I want to keep the santa story alive in my family!
my kids will believe in santa as long as i can make them. it's much better than : here ya go, we got in line at walmart for 2hrs to get you this piece of shit toy, enjoy that for 5min... you spoiled kid!

[ngdawg]

If you can't remember the awe you felt this time of year regarding Santa, then I guess your parents didn't play the "game". My most favorite Christmas was when I was 8-I was questioning the existence of Santa and, being the oldest of 4, my parents didn't want me blowing the fantasy for the younger ones, so they concocted a scheme...
"Santa" arrived at our house just before dawn. My mom came into my room, told me to be very very quiet, she wanted to show me something. There, in our livingroom was Santa, taking our gifts out of a bag and placing them under the tree. Mom says the look on my face was priceless.

I see nothing wrong with the concept of Santa as it is. Of course, I never used Santa as a threat to my kids-some folks do and that's just wrong. And my son, Mr. Everything-has-to-be-logical, when asked how did he do it all in one night-got the "explanation" that not every child celebrates the season.

If adults, more often than not very reasonable in every other aspect, can believe in a man who walked on water, turned water into wine and died, then came back to life, why can't kids believe in Santa? It's all the same thing. Hope and belief in reward for goodness. They'll be cynical adults soon enough....

[MzNadia]

I had years and years of wonderful memories having Santa in my childhood. I was 6 years older than my sister. When I was told that Santa was not real, I got handed a VERY IMPORTANT JOB of getting my younger sister to sleep so "Santa" could visit.

I'll be passing this on to my two children and can only hope they enjoy him as much as I did.

[Ustwo]

I've decided to go with the Santa lie for my 3 year old, because its fun for him and for us. You will have to forgive me if someone thinks thats stupid. Have a kid and then decide.

Being I'm not going to be raising my child as anything but a nominal Christian its already a secular holiday only in my house hold.

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

It is the capitalist system which induces the children to expect a sack of presents.

And the wealth to make it happen as well. You can keep your bread lines thanks,

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by MexicanOnABike

i like the whole Santa story line. it's fun. if kids receive toys from only parents, they'll expect toys all year long. We only got awesome toys like legos or toy trucks and stuff like that when santa brought them. it was awesome. clothes and other educational gifts were from my parents or grandparents and that was fine.

I want to keep the santa story alive in my family!
my kids will believe in santa as long as i can make them. it's much better than : here ya go, we got in line at walmart for 2hrs to get you this piece of shit toy, enjoy that for 5min... you spoiled kid!

It's not like this at all.

I don't buy my kids much stuff all year long. When my daughter asks for something significant she is always told that she needs to wait 'til Christmas (or her birthday). Christmas, then, still remains a very exciting time of year.

And what necessarily makes them not spoiled by believing in Santa Claus?

[kurty[B]]

I want to get a santa outfit, and in future years show up at the mother of my child's house late late late on Christmas Eve (after my boy goes to sleep) and drop off presents. If he doesn't wake up, so be it, if he happens to stumble downstairs he'll find Santa Clauss (who oddly has eyes similar to daddy) and I'll have to come up with exactly what Santa will have to say to him (aside from go back to sleep). Hopefully, I will be more than welcome to stay, and see my boy come out and see all the new toys that arrived the night before (and maybe tell me a story about his run in with Santa).

At some point, he'll find out Santa is really his dad just driving or flying across the state, or across the country to be deliver presents and spend Christmas with his son. I'd like to keep it a tradition even after he knows, maybe he'll have half-brothers and sisters he can enjoy "keeping the secret" from at that point.

[jewels]

As you say, Santa's an icon, a symbol. The simple answer is that toddlers don't understand symbolism, just as they wouldn't understand that Uncle Jimmy blew his head off.

I don't think kids hang onto it any longer than you allow them. I never had to come out and tell mine the "truth"; they began having doubts at about 4 or 5, and by the time they go to school, they're questioning and figuring it out with their peers. When they asked the questions, I told them that Santa was in all of us. Corny, but they accepted that at first, until they asked me what that meant a year or so later.

Then again, we've always celebrated all the fun holidays; my children have enjoyed the traditions of both parents and are in the process of finding themselves and making their own choices.

[ottopilot]

Who says there isn't a Santa? Can you prove it one way or another?

I believe in the spirit of a Santa Christmas rather than celebrating Christ's birth. It's the magic of fantasy, the spirit of giving, and sharing traditions with the family. To me the wonderment of children during Christmas can be so magical and innocent. I realize it's not like that for everyone. But all the symbolism can be a powerful learning tool, and I see my 6 year-old understanding more and more about compassion, sharing and giving each year.

I like the way the Santa story is portrayed in the movie "Polar Express". Perhaps we just don't hear the sleigh bells ring after a while. Maybe some of us always will... at least metaphorically. It's how you keep the spirit of the season for everyone around you.

Kind of sappy, but I enjoy it all very much.

Merry Christmas!

[MexicanOnABike]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

It's not like this at all.

I don't buy my kids much stuff all year long. When my daughter asks for something significant she is always told that she needs to wait 'til Christmas (or her birthday). Christmas, then, still remains a very exciting time of year.

And what necessarily makes them not spoiled by believing in Santa Claus?

then you're better than most parents i know. and your daughter sounds more patient than most kids i meet. i met some of my gf's cousins and cousin's kids and man are they ever spoiled!

not believing in santa seems to kill the mood of xmas for me.

[Charlatan]

I kind of like the idea of there being this rotund fellow in a red suit that has the ability to delivery presents around the world, all in one night.

I have no trouble hoodwinking my kids to believe this fiction. It's fun.


That said, I have to wonder does this "belief" in a magical being, of kindness not prime our kids for belief in other supernatural beings. Are we priming the pump of religion?

Of course the reverse could also be true... just like we told them about about God and Jesus so too did we tell them about Santa. If one supernatural being was a lie, why not the others?

Just a thought.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by analog

1. Why do we lie to kids about Santa

People do it because it's tradition. What they should be doing is simply telling the kids that Saint Nicholas once gave gifts to children on Christmas, and in celebration of the idea of giving freely to others we do the same. It's about giving.

Originally Posted by analog

2. Have any of you thought about it and decided that the whole Santa Christmas thing has become a commercial enterprise, and stopped celebrating it?

I will always celebrate Christmas because of what it means to me personally: love, giving selflessly, peace, family and tradition.

[SecretMethod70]

http://www.thisisby.us/index.php/con..._be_much_worse

Christmas Wasn't Always Like This: It Used to Be Much Worse
Christmas Was Secular Before Your Righteous Indignation Was In Your Mommy's Sacred Womb

Every year, as kids get excited and parents get panicked, you see soft news stories all over TV. Has Christmas lost its focus? What is Christmas really about? Why don’t children understand the real meaning of Christmas?

The last question is especially bothersome because it implies that this generation is the one that misses the point. Previous generations? Oh, they had their shit together. They went to church, said prayers, chopped wood, accepted a moderate gift, and had a long discussion about the importance of family in every day life.

Wrong. Christmas wasn’t always like it is now. It used to be worse.

You think Christmas is commercial now? Look back a generation or two. You’ll see Santa Claus shilling cigarettes. And while it isn’t quite true that Santa Claus as we know him today was invented by the Coca-Cola corporation, it is true that the ad campaign appeared in the 1930s as a way to bank on his popularity.

In other words, Santa Claus, the very representation of winter gift-giving and consumerism was shilling products you didn’t need before most of the parents who claim their kids “don’t understand Christmas” were even born.

But, you might argue, Christmas is about Jesus. Right? Am I right? Can I get an Amen! Righteous indignation!

Wrong again.

Yes, it’s been designated as the birth day of Jesus. But then it shouldn’t be the most popular Christian holiday – Easter should. Easter celebrates the resurrection of Jesus. It’s a bigger deal to get resurrected than born. Easter is technically the most important holiday in Christianity. Yet it definitely isn’t treated that way. Christmas is always a bigger deal, even when it comes to churches decorating themselves.

Christmas, name withstanding, actually has its historical roots in Yule, a Northern European winter festival that was meant to bring joy to the dark seasons. The gift-giving element of Christmas so many people claim has taken away from Christ actually has as much to do with feasting on slaughtered cattle – you had to kill most of your cattle during the winter or chance it all going to waste – as it does the three wise men.

Of course, this means that many people who complain of Christmas’ “meaning” speak of “yuletide” celebrations without knowing the meaning of that either.

Also, there’s the Roman God Sol Invictus whose feast day was December 25th. He was also drawn with an orb around his head the same way Christ is portrayed. And on his feast day gifts were exchanged.

You might say, “So what? Christmas should be a celebration of Christ’s birth!”

Okay, sure. But then why was it banned by many Protestant sects in the 17 and 1800s? Many early English and American Protestants – and their local governments – banned Christmas as too raucous. Apparently, folks were using the celebration as a reason to have sex and get drunk. Protestants believed that celebrating Christmas – which, at the time involved demanding money from the upperclass and generally making a mess of things – was just too socially damaging. Churches were kept closed on December 25th.

Santa himself does come from St. Nicholas, a real Christian bishop who gave gold to people in need, especially children. But his feast day became so popular with kids who wanted gifts that Christian officials – centuries ago – demanded that people change the gift bringer from St. Nick to the Christ Child. That way, kids got their toys without worshipping someone other than Jesus.

Do you understand what I’m saying? This whole “stop making Christmas secular!” argument has been going on for centuries. Kids have wanted gifts since time immemorial. Parents have wanted a reason to complain about it for almost as long. The whole argument that people should just quietly worship their religion doesn’t only go against the entire history of the holiday, but of the reason behind it’s creation by officials.

I know no one likes a history lesson, but my point here isn’t that your Christmas shouldn’t be about Christ. I don’t care what you do on Christmas. But when you get on television and complain that your kids wanting a Nintendo Wii is a vast departure from the “real” meaning of Christmas, you are an asshole. Christmas has no meaning because it is culled from so many sources. It means the birth of someone’s savior, sure. But it’s also a time for people to drink and be merry. And have sex. And worship the sun god. And feast on the harvest during a dark time.

It’s not yours to decide what to do with it. Nor was it ever religious enough to warrant the demand that it “goes back” to being about something it was never really about.

And one last thing.

X-Mas means the same thing as Christmas. Stop saying it “takes Jesus out of Christmas.” The X represents the first letter in the Greek word for “Christmas.” Okay? He’s still there.

Now leave me alone and let me enjoy my Santa.

And a good response from the comments...

I love it when some pompous dick goes on a rant like this; mostly correct history that might be elucidating if just a history lesson, but then shoves their foot up their mouth with some blanket asshead statement attempt to make a point, like:

"But when you get on television and complain that your kids wanting a Nintendo Wii is a vast departure from the “real” meaning of Christmas, you are an asshole."

Nice interpretation of the sentiment of the statement when many say things like that. Did they mention Jesus? Did they say screw Santa? No, they usually go onto pine for things like quality family time, the Yule Log on the fireplace, and that time in college when their fiancé took them skating and proposed on Christmas Eve at center ice.

If you had the intellect of someone more educated than a 5th grader, you'd realize the intent behind such a statement can easily reflect a broader (secular, or other) understanding of Christmas than the "Birth of Jesus" and it might actually incorporate everything you just said; Usually, and you glossed over this with your intro, what people resent is blind fucking consumerism.

Fifty years ago, we did not have "Black Friday" when the nation opens its stores at 4am and manages to collectively place itself in 20 billion dollars more credit card debt.

Gifts were still gifts, children got their toys, but they were not necessarily store bought. They did not put you in debt, and the kid didn't run around screaming "I WANT IT I WANT IT GIVE GIVE GIVE." They didn't fucking know what they wanted, and not all of them had to get the exact same Power Ranger, and you didn't look like an ass in front of all your relatives when they show up and little Johnny didn't get the last Tickle-Me-Elmo, even though you got a concussion fighting a 400lb mother of 7 for the last one (she already had 8).

As a member of the advertising community that is so effectively (more-so than at any point in previous human history), duping all of you this holiday season into buying worthless shit, I say wake up. When someone complains that his 5 year old wants a $250 Wii ($400 on Amazon, $200 for games, and $70 for more controllers) I think that's damn fair and maybe you should all listen to him. My spending so far is $79— and that was for Vodka, Rum, and Eggnog, that I'm pretty sure I wouldve gotten if it were April because my liver gets cranky.

To be trite, the medium is the message; we don't need to shill with Santa clause because we've moved beyond needing simple icons; the behavioral paradigm has been established and is so ubiquitous and insidiously pervasive, that you actually now even have the balls to say it used to be worse. Haha.... We've sure got you hooked. You're going to buy because we told you to; its what Americans do every December. Seriously. Go buy something, we'll give you 60 ideas in the next minute that won't even process as sales pitches.

What you're forgetting, is that it used to be if Tommy's Dad got laid off from The Mill and couldn't afford to buy Tommy the Candy Apple Red Radioflyer, Tommy didn't get it; or anything else for that matter. Tommy's Dad didn't refinance the house he can't afford anyway, debt from one card to another, and then buy Tommy the Radio Flyer as well as Brand New Lay-Z-Boy for himself.

In conclusion, you're an idiot. Thank you for wasting my, and the entire Reddit community's time with your article. Next time you try to use flamboyant rhetoric and a confrontational style. Make sure you're right. I hope Santa eats you.

Frankly, I think they've both got points. As for myself: I really don't care.

Making a big stink about lying to kids about Santa Claus just seems ridiculous to me. Everyone tells little lies like that, and there's nothing wrong with it. Eventually, kids learn that there isn't a Santa and they move on. A very small handful are traumatized by learning that their parents lied to them about Santa, and I imagine that's where this whole "lying about Santa is bad!" argument is rooted. It's just like anything else...if you don't like the idea of lying about Santa, don't do it.

The degree to which Christmas is commercialized is, I think, directly related to our consumer culture in general. That is to say: I don't think Christmas is any more commercial relative to current everyday consumerism than it was in the past relative to the degree of consumerism at that time. If you want to be smart and not spend a ton of money on gifts, go ahead and do so. Spread the word of simple gifts if you want, so long as it's not done with righteous indignation. But if people want to max out their credit cards buying all the latest toys for all the kids in their family, even though you've politely suggested that there's another way to celebrate...let them. It doesn't make your Christmas any worse.

Setting aside the issue of consumerism, if there's on thing that I think is pretty clear cut, it's that there is no religious monopoly on Christmas. Christmas is rooted in at least 4 different celebrations. It's your last paragraph that bothers me the most because of this...there is no "real" Christmas. The Christmas tree, lights, wreath, and colors (the red and green, not the advent colors) are all taken from pagan celebrations. Even the date is taken from pagan celebrations: the knowledge that Jesus was probably actually born in springtime is not particularly new. Celebrate Christmas however you want, and attribute whatever meaning to it you want...but there is no universal "actual Christmas."

[abaya]

Thanks for the excellent quotes, SM. I enjoyed reading both the original article and the response (perhaps because I'm celebrating another Christmas in Iceland this year--where the official name is still "jól" (from yule) and they have 13 naughty yule-lads, no Santas to speak of--still very pagan, if you ask me.

Now, as for this...

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

If you want to be smart and not spend a ton of money on gifts, go ahead and do so. Spread the word of simple gifts if you want, so long as it's not done with righteous indignation. But if people want to max out their credit cards buying all the latest toys for all the kids in their family, even though you've politely suggested that there's another way to celebrate...let them. It doesn't make your Christmas any worse.

Maybe this is a sidenote, but I don't know how to do this. Ktspktsp and I were planning to buy very few gifts (only individual ones for our small nuclear families, and a general gift for each important extended-family... no kid gifts, etc). Sounds all well and good, I was pretty happy with the situation.

But I just heard that one of my aunt's families is doing the maxing-out-credit-cards thing, and she named about 30 people she is buying gifts for (mind you, I have 32 first cousins in Iceland alone). I told her very clearly to NOT BUY US GIFTS, though I felt maybe I was being too blunt... and she said quietly that she was going to give us something before we went to Lebanon. Well, GREAT. So now that means I will look like an asshole if I don't give something back to her, right? (Her and her 4 children, christ). I am not trying to be righteously indignant here, I just want to know what the right thing to do is. Just give her the card we originally planned to send, and accept her gift and leave? Is that polite?

Other than between my husband and I (where I feel like we have very healthy and clear expectations of gifts, due to our massive amounts of communication), I would really prefer to just stop participating in Christmas and birthday gift exchanges. I fucking hate this rigamarole, especially when everyone we know is affluent enough to buy whatever they want, most of the time.

[SecretMethod70]

The way I look at it is this: you can't control whether or not someone is upset that you didn't get them what they think you should have gotten them. Most people have their way of doing Christmas and they're going to continue to do things that way. If you buy a more expensive gift for someone this year so that the gift giving is more even...what do you do next year when faced with the same problem?

There are three ways situations like that can go:

1) They buy you a gift, you buy them a gift...next year, repeat, ad infinitum.
2) They buy you a gift, you buy them a card...next year, repeat, ad infinitum. If they keep on buying you a gift while you're getting them cards, clearly they don't mind.
3) They buy you a gift, you buy them a card...next year (or in a few years), they buy you a card, you buy them a card. Over time, they catch on that you don't do the gift thing the way they do and so they start to respond in kind. Either they'll do it happily or grudgingly, but whichever that is, it's not your issue. So long as you're clear from the get-go, which it sounds like you are.

Anyway, that's how I look at it. I only think it's righteously indignant to tell someone else that they're celebrating Christmas/the holidays "wrong." All you're wanting to do is celebrate it in your own way.

[ItWasMe]

We observe baby Jesus and Santa on Christmas. Both as real people. I don't see the conflict. It used to be a feast time for St. Nicholas, until it was changed to Christ Child day. Santa doesn't bother me when it gets to be "gimme gimme gimme" with kids instead of teaching them to share, to bestow a gift to a family member, to help those less fortunate, visit with those who are lonely.

I tell my children that Nicholas, gave gold and gifts to the needy. And I tell a couple of the stories (gold thrown through window of poor man for daughter's dowry, etc) And how he eventually died because he was a real person. I tell them that people liked him so much because of his caring and giving heart, that they like to pretend that he is still alive.

And it is a fun thing to pretend. My children get to "do the gift tree thing" at the mall each year. They get to fill each others stockings, and I get to put them on their beds while they are sleeping. And the next morning we show each other what Santa Clause (or Sinterklaas or Sint Nikolaas) brought for us.

As for baby Jesus birthday, I was taught his real birthday was in a warmer month, but is celebrated at Christmas. Way back when "one God only" was law, kids were starting to worship Nicholas on his feast day to get presents. So officials changed the name to Christ Child day instead.

ABAYA: A suggestion for you, if you decide to give gifts to your aunt's family. A relative on a tight budget one year gave us a photo album. It was filled with pictures of family over the past 20 years. Granted, this lady had boxes of old photos, probably more than your average person. But you can get a small scrapbook, or mini-album, and even copy/print your photos to give her, then give the one album to the entire family.

[ottopilot]

edit - moved to tilted humor.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by analog

As for me, I celebrate actual Christmas, as a Catholic... baby jesus, shephard, wise guys, the whole deal.

That's cool.

But, to me, Christmas is Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire, Walking In A Winter Wonderland, and It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like Christmas. I revel in the secular aspects of the season. My wife, on the other hand, while also frolicking in the trappings of "Santa Christmas", takes on a far more religious view of the season than do I. She is Catholic, and I do indulge her proclivities. She knows that I could really care less, and appreciates the fact that I "help" her indulge in her celebrations. And that, I think, is what the season's about.

[roachboy]

last year i thought it would be funny to be santa claus.
so i mounted a campaign to become santa claus and it worked.

there is something deeply deeply strange about being santa claus: what kids believe, what they don't believe, which plays out across the kinda stupid matter of whether kid a is going to understand the costume and so you as santa claus (in marshall fields naturlich) or you, the guy inside the costume, as a guy inside a costume.

one little girl asked me as santa claus and not as the guy who was holding up the santa suit, who kept it from falling in a heap on the floor, to heal her little brother who was at the time in an oxygen tent.

that is what she wanted.

that is also the point at which it stopped being fun to be santa claus and became something else, something more surreal.

that santa claus is ideologically suspect is given: the spirit of nice capitalism, an index across which you get to see the extent to which kids measure themselves by indexing it to commodities they can imagine acquiring, so an index of socialization, of the internalization of norms that shape beliefs and so as a type of adjustment mechanism for operating in a capitalist context--santa claus is part of the mechanisms that enable folk to confuse market rationality and reason because santa claus is an element of projecting a sense of moral valuation onto commodity flows.

but santa claus is also an object of belief. like the oracle of delphi. kids want to get a secret message from santa claus, which enables them to understand themselves as special objects of attention.

thinking about santa claus runs in one direction
being santa claus in another.
thinking about santa claus i figure it's all a joke and the earlier kids know the better.
being santa claus, i figured that the kids i saw who took me to be the costume i was wearing, and so who took me to be santa claus, will find out all this soon enough.
and so i only mentioned the slogan

"when the revolution comes, all you'll probably do is squeal"

to myself.

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by roachboy

kids want to get a secret message from santa claus, which enables them to understand themselves as special objects of attention.

Dude, that made my heart skip a beat. It's a pretty penetrating observation.

[roachboy]

ultimately, mm, that's what threw me about being santa claus--that's what i didn't expect.

every time a kid would entirely erase me behind my costume, the main communication that happened was whispered in santa's (and mine) ear (poison-like) and i was clearly supposed to give a secret message in response. that message is what made the turn as santa work, when it did...so it wasn't so much the gifts requested--it was this other thing--the kids would tell santa that they were good and wanted santa to see them in the same way as they were seeing themselves. so the center seemed to be this exchange of fantasies--they each kid was this way, that santa told them they were right because he saw them that way too. it almost didnt matter what else the kids believed about the nexus of commodities, because during the secret message phase, it was about them-as-they-want-to-be-seen.

i found myself----against everything that i think or thought---realizing that that i could give them that moment because i was animating the santa suit.

but it was very very strange as an experience.

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by roachboy

ultimately, mm, that's what threw me about being santa claus--that's what i didn't expect.

every time a kid would entirely erase me behind my costume, the main communication that happened was whispered in santa's (and mine) ear (poison-like) and i was clearly supposed to give a secret message in response. that message is what made the turn as santa work, when it did...so it wasn't so much the gifts requested--it was this other thing--the kids would tell santa that they were good and wanted santa to see them in the same way as they were seeing themselves. so the center seemed to be this exchange of fantasies--they each kid was this way, that santa told them they were right because he saw them that way too. it almost didnt matter what else the kids believed about the nexus of commodities, because during the secret message phase, it was about them-as-they-want-to-be-seen.

i found myself----against everything that i think or thought---realizing that that i could give them that moment because i was animating the santa suit.

but it was very very strange as an experience.

Well, I'm glad that you had it, if only so you could tell us all about it. I enjoyed that very much.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by roachboy

i found myself----against everything that i think or thought---realizing that that i could give them that moment because i was animating the santa suit.

And you think that there's a better gift that you could give a child? Validation?

You done good.

[dksuddeth]

why do parents lie about santa? I thought it was to make kids behave, you know, 'if you're not good, santa won't bring you any presents!'

[thingstodo]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

If you can't remember the awe you felt this time of year regarding Santa, then I guess your parents didn't play the "game". My most favorite Christmas was when I was 8-I was questioning the existence of Santa and, being the oldest of 4, my parents didn't want me blowing the fantasy for the younger ones, so they concocted a scheme...
"Santa" arrived at our house just before dawn. My mom came into my room, told me to be very very quiet, she wanted to show me something. There, in our livingroom was Santa, taking our gifts out of a bag and placing them under the tree. Mom says the look on my face was priceless.

I see nothing wrong with the concept of Santa as it is. Of course, I never used Santa as a threat to my kids-some folks do and that's just wrong. And my son, Mr. Everything-has-to-be-logical, when asked how did he do it all in one night-got the "explanation" that not every child celebrates the season.

If adults, more often than not very reasonable in every other aspect, can believe in a man who walked on water, turned water into wine and died, then came back to life, why can't kids believe in Santa? It's all the same thing. Hope and belief in reward for goodness. They'll be cynical adults soon enough....

Good one!! Every last word.

What, no Santa? Perish the thought!

I have awesome memories of waiting for Santa to come when I was a little kid. It made the season magical for me with wonderful memories to this very day. I can remember my father getting us around the radio as weathermen shared reports from air force jets that they had seen Santa flying around. I'm glad my parents "lied" to me and let me enjoy my childhood. I figured it out soon enough and was ready to move on by then.

It's a shame adults make everything so commercial. Even religion uses the season as an opportunity to commercialize and market religion. Oh, well. I'll just sit back tonight and enjoy my memories with my wife as we once again wait for Santa.

The originator of this thread obviously doesn't have children. If he did, he would understand the feeling of seeing magic glow in his children's eyes. Perhaps the following will get that Bah, Humbug spirit out of your head:
____________________________
Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus

Editorial Page, New York Sun, 1897
_________________________________
I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, "If you see it in The Sun, it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?
Virginia O'Hanlon
_________________________________
Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a sceptical age. They do not believe except what they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus?Thank God he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!!
___________________________________
From The People's Almanac, pp. 1358-9.

Francis P. Church's editorial, "Yes Virginia, There is a Santa Claus" was an immediate sensation, and became one of the most famous editorials ever written. It first appeared in the The New York Sun in 1897, almost a hundred years ago, and was reprinted annually until 1949 when the paper went out of business.

Thirty-six years after her letter was printed, Virginia O'Hanlon recalled the events that prompted her letter:

"Quite naturally I believed in Santa Claus, for he had never disappointed me. But when less fortunate little boys and girls said there wasn't any Santa Claus, I was filled with doubts. I asked my father, and he was a little evasive on the subject.

"It was a habit in our family that whenever any doubts came up as to how to pronounce a word or some question of historical fact was in doubt, we wrote to the Question and Answer column in The Sun. Father would always say, 'If you see it in the The Sun, it's so,' and that settled the matter.

" 'Well, I'm just going to write The Sun and find out the real truth,' I said to father.

"He said, 'Go ahead, Virginia. I'm sure The Sun will give you the right answer, as it always does.' "

And so Virginia sat down and wrote her parents' favorite newspaper.

Her letter found its way into the hands of a veteran editor, Francis P. Church. Son of a Baptist minister, Church had covered the Civil War for The New York Times and had worked on the The New York Sun for 20 years, more recently as an anonymous editorial writer. Church, a sardonic man, had for his personal motto, "Endeavour to clear your mind of cant." When controversial subjects had to be tackled on the editorial page, especially those dealing with theology, the assignments were usually given to Church.

Now, he had in his hands a little girl's letter on a most controversial matter, and he was burdened with the responsibility of answering it.

"Is there a Santa Claus?" the childish scrawl in the letter asked. At once, Church knew that there was no avoiding the question. He must answer, and he must answer truthfully. And so he turned to his desk, and he began his reply which was to become one of the most memorable editorials in newspaper history.

Church married shortly after the editorial appeared. He died in April, 1906, leaving no children.

Virginia O'Hanlon went on to graduate from Hunter College with a Bachelor of Arts degree at age 21. The following year she received her Master's from Columbia, and in 1912 she began teaching in the New York City school system, later becoming a principal. After 47 years, she retired as an educator. Throughout her life she received a steady stream of mail about her Santa Claus letter, and to each reply she attached an attractive printed copy of the Church editorial. Virginia O'Hanlon Douglas died on May 13, 1971, at the age of 81, in a nursing home in Valatie, N.Y.

[JeremyRising]

1. Are you sure we are deliberately lying with the intent to lie? Or perhaps we just are following a tradition instilled in us from generations of modern nurturing of intellectual stimulation? That is what I consider it.

Imagination is a crucial part of the growth and empowerment of the Mind and exercise for Intuition. After all, Imagination is creativity, and creativity is the act of Creating, which is a function of humanity's existence. Allow a child to have an active Imagination, to brigthen the ability for a child to have an open mind hopefully throughout his or her life. And promote Imagination during the growing part of a child's development to let them know "It's okay to have an open mind and a creative mind". After all, this is the foundation of our philosophers, teachers, scientists, inventors, and leaders.

Imagination is a powerful and important tool, and Santa is a traditional character that helps us enliven it. Besides, children will grow to become men and women. And during the developmental process and their experiences in life, they, themselves, will discover by themselves (and of course with the help of peers) will discover "Hey Santa doesn't exist". When a child discovers for him or herself, as his/her mind grows intellectually, he/she will not be upset as if his/her world came crashing down to some "lie". Again it is exercising the power and growth of the Mind.

2. The character of Santa is subjective. Depending on how one wants to use this character. Both Capitalists and "non-Capitalists" (just a general term encompassing other political ideologies and systems like Socialism) have their own "Santa Claus" where Christian Christmas is celebrated. So it isn't necessarily a Capitalist-pig tool. It depends on how you want to use the character.

Yes, largely "Santa" is used to promote holiday impulse consumerism and materialism. But, when "Santa comes home" it is up to YOU and how YOU wish to use Santa. Children see the Capitalist Santa on TV, fine. But YOU are the most important ASSET to YOUR CHILD. How you feel, what you believe, say, and do has a larger influence on YOUR CHILD than the TV does. They will say "look daddy/mommy" pointing to the TV. But they will listen to you when you say, "that's not what Christmas is about...Santa teaches us to be charitable and caring...etc.". THIS will mean MORE to the child than the images on the TV.

And yes, I use the TV as the central party, but let it be the embodiment of all outside media that promotes holiday consumerism in both children and adults.

This is how I was raised. I received tons and tons of gifts from my parents, and for a time believed Santa provided them. However, Charity, Appreciation, Love, and so forth were the foundations of the ethics and principle in my household. So as I looked forward to Presents, I do remember not being driven by "having" and more the experience. And of course, I shared always. In fact, the older I got, the less and less I wanted gifts at Christmas, especially after the realization of Santa. As Santa faded away the lessons my parents taught me grew steadfast.

In fact, even from a young age I've always felt better helping and giving than receiving, as I've learned from my parents who also are extremely charitable in nature.

In conclusion, Santa isn't some "terrible lie" or tool of Capitalism. Santa begins as a match which further sustains the fire that kindles the candle of Mind and Intellect. Imagination is an important aspect, especially during growth during one's childhood. It'll translate into a creative and open mind/intellect later in life, as we grow and make the distinction between pretend and reality (fact and fiction). Lastly, Santa is shared by many regardless of capitalist behavior. But how Santa is used is dependent on YOU and your household, as YOU are the inspiration for YOUR CHILD regardless of what Uncle Sam has to say.

- Jeremy Rising

[dlish]

Originally Posted by Redlemon

. The first will be Xmas, a secular winter party with all the presents and pretty things, still on December 25th.

umm.. i dont know about you guys..but every xmas ive ever had has been a scorcher! whether its oz or dubai.. its still stinking hot for xmas!

just remember.. its not winter everwhere in the world!

[Redlemon]

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

umm.. i dont know about you guys..but every xmas ive ever had has been a scorcher! whether its oz or dubai.. its still stinking hot for xmas!

just remember.. its not winter everwhere in the world!

Mea culpa.

But what I was referring to by saying "winter" is all the snowmen, elves, Jack Frost, and "Winter Wonderland" music. If you take away Jesus, and take away the snow elements, I'm not sure what would be left other than the gifts.