healer

I don't have a chequebook (yeah, it's spelt cheque ) and doubt I'll ever get one. Like gal, I use direct debit for all the regular bills and payments and have never experienced any problems, other than bank charges. Apparently South African banks are some of the most expensive worldwide in this regard. Still, it beats paying for things in cash, as it costs just as much in charges to get your friggin money from the ATM.

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FatFreeGoodness

I still use checks. Debit cards are LESS secure than checks.
If I allow a company to electronically debit my account and they take too much, there is no legal requirement that the bank reverse the transaction, and the taking is not automatically criminal. Example: I have my car detailed, and intend to pay $40. The shop deducts $70, with a reasonable explanation. It’s up to me to straighten this out with the shop, not the bank.
With a paper check there are laws that require that I be kept harmless, and it is criminal fraud if the amount differs from the amount on the check even if the recipient disagrees about what SHOULD have been on the check.
If I present a check and they convert it to an electronic transaction, it still legally counts as a check.
I agree this is a fault in the banking laws, but nonetheless is sufficient reason to avoid debit cards.

Don’t even get me started on automatic withdrawals. I don’t have a problem with electronic transfer, where it’s an active sending from your account to theirs, as distinct from them pulling it out.

Credit cards are better than debit cards, maybe even checks, as there are legal barriers to protect you in case of fraud. There is $50 exposure, but on the other hand you get to dispute payment for unsatisfactory goods and services, which you can’t do with a check.

A debit card is easy, but offers no benefits over a credit card and is the most risky of all the ways to pay, save carrying huge amounts of cash. Checks are a pain but fairly safe. (IE: can be stolen, but you have no risk even then.) Credit cards are easy, low risk, and significant benefits.

Gal: "How can fraud with direct debit be so widespread? A company that use direct debit will surely loose its privileges if they try to scam people."
Two words: America Online.
How many times did they direct debit accouts after being told to stop? I know it was millions.
"I'm also able to stop the [direct debit] bills manually, since they're visible online 15-20 days before they take effect."
No, not true. You can see when they are scheduled to take effect. There is nothing other than honesty in preventing the person or company authorized to withdraw from you account from cleaning you out without a moments notice. You can go after them in court via civil suit, but it is not criminal since you gave them permission to deduct... what you will dispute is how much they deducted.

I still use checks. Debit cards are LESS secure than checks.
If I allow a company to electronically debit my account and they take too much, there is no legal requirement that the bank reverse the transaction, and the taking is not automatically criminal. Example: I have my car detailed, and intend to pay $40. The shop deducts $70, with a reasonable explanation. It’s up to me to straighten this out with the shop, not the bank.
With a paper check there are laws that require that I be kept harmless, and it is criminal fraud if the amount differs from the amount on the check even if the recipient disagrees about what SHOULD have been on the check.
If I present a check and they convert it to an electronic transaction, it still legally counts as a check.
I agree this is a fault in the banking laws, but nonetheless is sufficient reason to avoid debit cards.

Don’t even get me started on automatic withdrawals. I don’t have a problem with electronic transfer, where it’s an active sending from your account to theirs, as distinct from them pulling it out.

Credit cards are better than debit cards, maybe even checks, as there are legal barriers to protect you in case of fraud. There is $50 exposure, but on the other hand you get to dispute payment for unsatisfactory goods and services, which you can’t do with a check.

A debit card is easy, but offers no benefits over a credit card and is the most risky of all the ways to pay, save carrying huge amounts of cash. Checks are a pain but fairly safe. (IE: can be stolen, but you have no risk even then.) Credit cards are easy, low risk, and significant benefits.

gal: “How can fraud with direct debit be so widespread? A company that use direct debit will surely loose its privileges if they try to scam people.”
Two words: America Online.
They did it millions of times over many years.

gal: "Erroneous chargers is another thing, but ... I'm also able to stop the bills manually, since they're visible online 15-20 days before they take effect."
Again, not so if this is automatic debit where the recipients have permission to initiate the transaction. The only thing stopping them from cleaning out your account is their honesty. But the most common problem they deduct an amount you think is too high but they say is correct. The bank says “Hey, you gave them permission to deduct. It’s between you two.” And it’s away to small claims court with the dispute… if you choose to. Don’t expect to win unless you have proof.

Pip

Amen. I've recieved one or two salaries as cheques because I hadn't given them my account number yet. Other than that? Never used any.

gal

Less secure? If you lose your debit/credit card you can at least block it very quickly. Also, any good bank will cover fraud if you report it straight away.

This has never happened in any of my estimated 10'000+ card payments. But if they charge your debit/credit card more than what you signed for, the bank will cover you and go after the shop. This is at least the case for my US bank, Wells Fargo.

Yes, true. By clicking a thrash can icon next to the claim. This is in my Norwegian bank though. A direct deposit is treated as a giro with a certain due date. It is simply visible online about 2 weeks before that.

Dealing with businesses as if they were AOL is just paranoid. My phone, electricity, and credit card bills are paid by direct deposit. These companies are allowed to charge my account and I can control their access online. I've set up my rent to be transferred to my landlord's account the 1st every month. For other random stuff, such as magazine subscriptions, donations or whatever, I get a giro where I have to approve the transaction online. Any other day to day shopping I use credit or debit card.

FatFreeGoodness

Yeah, you can cancel credit cards, debit cards, AND checks,. But in the meantime…

If your credit card is fraudulently used, you are legally liable for up to $50 in charges made before you report it lost, but nothing thereafter.
With a debit card, if you report the loss within two business days you are similarly liable for up to $50 for unauthorized use. However, if you don't report the loss within two business days, liability is up to $500.
If someone writes a fraudulent check, you are not legally liable at all. There is no requirement to report the missing check (though of course, you would be smart to do so.)

Additionally, if someone authorized to debit your account does so for an unauthorized amount, you may sue them to recover, but it is not the banks problem. (Example: You order a cake, authorizing the baker to debit $50 but he debits $550. You have a civil dispute with the baker you can take to small claims court, but the bank is in the clear. If you had paid with a credit card you would dispute the charge and get the credit card company would eventually refund your money. If it were with a check, the baker would have received only the amount the check was written for. (Assuming he did not forge a check, which is a jail-time offense.)

Yes, I’d say the check is the most secure, followed by the credit card, with the debit card least secure.

Ah. Everything I said is specific to US banking laws.
A bank MAY do this. My point is that they are not legally required to do this (in the US). They may have terms and conditions (contract) with you in which they say they will do this, but they probably also have a clause that allow them to change the T&C at will, upon notice.

Cynthetiq

some of what you state as amounts persons are liable for are determined by the state the bank is located.

also stopping payments on checks or cancelling checks as far as I know requires a fee. Has this changed?

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stevie667

It requires a fee over here.

I only write cheques when paying friends/family/college expenses, other than that i use my debit card or cash. I don't want a credit card because of the hassle of fees and the temptation to buy myself a fish tank or three...

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Telluride

I only write checks when I'm not allowed to pay with cash, debit card or credit card.

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jbw97361

Personally, the only check I write is for rent. Unless I am paying a private party a large sum of money for furniture or some other large purchase, its all Debit card.

Being a waiter at a nice hotel restaurant, I personally hate people who pay for meals with cash. We have to make the change ourselves; there is no cash register to get small bills from. The people who whip out a hundred dollar bill to pay for a $14.78 meal need to be slapped until they come back to reality. (where do all these hundreds come from, the ATM only gives 20's in my experience)

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hiredgun

I very rarely use checks. When everyone accepts my debit card and I can pay my bills online, why bother with the paper?

billege

We don't use auto-payment on anything, because I don't trust any company enough to let them remove what they feel is the appropriate amount of money from my account.

My wife and I had a similar experiance to one described above when we made a purchase onine. We tend to use a credit card online because ours offers better protection against fraud. In this partiular transaction, thier website goofed and registered an order for 9 of the product, which they shipped, and charged us $380 dollars for; rather than the 1 we ordered. Fortunately, they were a good company and took responsibility for fixing the mess. For our part, we were glad we'd used a credit card instead of a debit. Had that been debit, our account would have taken a big unexpected hit and caused all sorts of cash flow problems. But, back on the subject of checks...


We use checks for three utility payments, and the odd "other" purchase. Though it defies belief, our water utility, electric and gas utility, and condo association actually CHARGE money for online payments (regardless of how you pay: debit or credit). The assholes at the condo association feel online payment is good for an additional $3/per payment. So, they get a check and a stamped envelope. The power and gas companies also charge a fee for online payment; I think it's $1.50 per payment. Incomprehensively, both convert our checks to electronic payments. I don't get that.

We'll send checks with birthday cards, weddings, etc. from time to time. I remember writing a rather large down payment check the last time we bought a car. We'll use checks to pay our twice-a-year auto insurance bills; also an annual life insurance policy. Both those bills offer auto-payment; but, not online per billing. We're not comfortable with the insurance company pulling large chunks of money on thier own, so checks it is. Though, I *think* we could go to our agent's office and pay with a debit card if we wanted to.

We'll pull cash out when we're going to a venue where, though debit may be accepted, cash is faster. After all, when you're buying 2 beers and hot dogs at the game, who the hell wants to wait for a debit card to process and then sign the reciept? I love signature-less purchases on small-amount total transactions.

One of the biggest bothers for me today is visiting the rare idiot who doesn't take plastic of any form.

I walked into a very convienantly close doughnut shop for the first and last time a few weeks ago. It's an older place, and it looked like a good bakery. I looked for the familiar "VISA / MASTERCARD" stickers on the door, and didn't see them. Starting to get a bad feeling, I walked in and greeted the couterperson. I asked if they took plastic, to which she replied "No, we don't." Being the asshole I am, and using my freedom of expression to show that, I replied "Well then, no doughnuts for me, and no sale for you," and turned around to find a business that has joined the 21st century.

Yes, I understand that processing plastic transactions costs more. I also understand that an overwhelmingly huge number of customers has made the choice to accept those charges in the form of slightly higher retail prices. Bottom line: I'll pay 50 cents more for that dozen doughnuts versus going to the ATM, getting cash, and then buying the them. I have nothing for disdain for businesses that refuse to get on board.

I hope thier business decision is well supported by enough other backwards people they stay in business; or, they'd better be the goddamn best in thier entire business catagory so that people are willing to get cash just for that purchase.

Generally speaking: The customer is right, and don't f'ing argue when he's trying to buy somthing from you.

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Leto

Same up here, there are children's accounts at all the bank branches. They do not have the same service fee schedule as "adult' bank accounts do. But they are also limited in the amount that can be withdrawn per day. My son can only take out a max of $20 per day from his Royal Bank Leo account on his debit card. (this has been a blessing as he is addicted to graphic novels - why? I don't know- which cost upwards of $30)

But for adult accounts there is a charge per transaction for debits which can be rolled into a monthy package (eg for $11 per month, I get 50 debit transactions, but the 51st costs me an extra 5 cents). Cheques have an additional cost added to that.

I am looking at my cheque book, and see that I write cheques for:

- property tax (post dated, 6 times a year)
- monthly math tutor lessons for the kids (Kumon)
- public school expenses (field trips, music equipment etc)
- post dated monthly ortho bills
- Hockey school registration
- Swim registration

A lot of these things cannot, or will not use the credit system as they pay a fee for their use as well. I also do not wish to get locked into a credit card pre-approved withdrawal agreement, as I had one in the past with a health club which was very difficult to cancel.

Yakk

A debit card transaction in Canada consists of:

The retailer keys in an amount.

The card is swiped.

You look at your hand-held display. It says how much. You say "OK" or "Cancel".

You enter your PIN (security number).

You pick which account you are paying from.

The Debit machine connects to the bank, checks that your account has the money and the PIN is correct, then moves the money from your account to the business's account.

...

While someone could engage in fraud, they can't debit you for more than you OK them for without engaging in fraud.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Gilda

I write checks, more since I found out that the bank is charging a service fee for debit transactions. I also prefer getting my pay as a paycheck, which annoys payroll, but makes me feel better. I like seeing that little piece of paper with the money I earned that month on it--it makes me feel like I've actually earned the money a lot more than checking the balance using an ATM to see if the transfer was made.

I didn't vote because I didn't understand what the choices meant.

Gilda

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raeanna74

I write checks for bills that I have to snail mail. We have a few companies that we pay regularly that do not have web payment service and who charge a fee to pay by phone. Thus we write checks for those. Often we'll take the checkbook with us on trips. We learned this the hard way. Our bank made an error in transmission to the ATM company and we were minus over $300 for a whole weekend. The $300 we were PLANNING to have because we were out of town. We went without a supper meal because nothing would take our debit card. If we'd had our checkbook with us we could have possible used it in some location. We do not have a credit card currently because we aren't restrained enough to avoid using it at all and it would be necessary that we carry only a $0 balance from month to month or we'd get ourselves in trouble again. Been there done that.

Occasionally I will take the checkbook with me to the store and may or may not use it. Mostly because when we deposit at the bank it takes sometimes up to 3 hours before the ATM is updated and our debit card will show the money we've deposited. The checkbook can be used whether the money is shown to be there or not. Though some places are using the instant checking thing now so I don't know how that would work if the ATM hasn't been updated. Haven't had that experience yet.

We have had the same box of checks for 2 years so you can see we don't use them much.

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CaliLivChick

A debit card and a check card are different, it's not just a marketing term. A debit card doesn't have a credit card logo, and therefore cannot be used as a credit card. A check card can be used as either a credit card or a debit card. There are places that take credit cards, but don't take debit cards.

I only write checks for rent. The only reason I do that (and not online banking) is because I want the money taken out as late as possible, not five days before it's due. Otherwise, I'd use online banking for that too. I pay all of my bills with online banking, except for my car insurance (direct withdrawal saves a fee every month), and am glad that I switched from writing checks for that as well. I decide when the money comes out of my account... I don't have to deal with the variables of mail delivery and when the payee decides to cash it. It makes things a lot easier to budget. I've never used my checkbook register... I have carbon checks, and everything gets put into an Excel spreadsheet instead of a checkbook register.

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Mrs Master

My partners clients pay by cheque all of the time, its surprises me how many people still use cheques. We mainly deal in cash to keep bank fees down.

Destrox

Just thought I'd let ya know, we've had Debit in 'the states' for years also....

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analog

I can't believe so many of your banks have the nards to charge a transaction fee if you use the card as a debit. I've never heard of it. Maybe there are things from state to state in the US (I can't at all account for anything outside the US) that make it more expensive for the debit card, making it necessary to charge... but damn.

That's to say nothing of what I'm gathering is some people pay a fee for writing checks, too? Now if you're paying a fee because you have an automatic bill payment thing set up, that's a bit different- you're paying for a service. But a fee because you wrote a check yourself or used your card as a debit? Bizarre!

Leto

Absolutely. Cheques cost 50 cents to write. Debits, the same. I use credit whenever possible, as there is no transaction fee.

Of course, if I opt for a monthly flat rate banking package , I can perform n number of debits/cheques etc within that package. If i do it on the phone, I can batch them all into one transaction.

this is one of the reasons that I can't wait until Canada opens up its banking to international outfits. Once that happens, we will stop being charges like this.

snowy

Wow...

With my checking account, the only fee I ever get charged is when I pull money out of another bank's ATM and get charged that fee. No fees for checks, no fees for debit. No fee to talk to a teller. Free online banking and billpay.

I have a good bank

All those bank fees are making me reconsider my desire to move to Canada :P

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Leto

haha. service charges at a bank a reason not to move somewhere??? sure I guess it's an annoyance.

Here is a link to my fee scheduler, which is just one of the many options that can be had:

http://www.rbcroyalbank.com/RBC:RS-x...ture-plus.html


below:

Monthly fee Free
Free debits One free debit per automated payroll deposit in same monthly cycle

Assisted Transactions
Cheques / In-branch bill payments/transfers/withdrawals / RBC ATM bill payments with stub $1.00 each

Electronic/Self-serve Transactions
RBC ATM withdrawals/transfers/bill payments/ Online & Telephone Banking transfers/payments/PAPs/IDP purchases $0.50 each
Interac* and PLUS* System ATM network access fees3 Interac: $1.50

PLUS System: $3.00
(within Canada and USA)

PLUS System: $5.00
(outside Canada and USA)
Recordkeeping Options:
eStatement with Cheque Images free* Free
Monthly Paper Statement (consolidated/combined**) Free
Cheque Images returned with paper statement $2.00
Bankbook $2.00
Access to RBC Online and Telephone Banking4 Free
Overdraft protection5 $3 per month or interest (whichever is greater)

Sara07

I just pay rent with a check, and I hate even doing that! I just use my debit or credit card for most stuff. It's pretty rare that I even keep cash on hand. It really is so much easier to just deal with a piece of plastic.

oberon

I wish the banking industry would design a better transaction system. The current system is horribly insecure (no matter how you conduct business), and I'm surprised there isn't more fraud. I think it should be easier to do person-to-person transactions too. Shouldn't have to write a check or pay cash for those, or use a take-a-piece-of-the-pie service like paypal. There should be something like ACH, but secure, and can be used by anyone to conduct transactions to anyone else (following regulations etc. obviously).

Most of my bills are auto-charged to my CC. I don't know why people are so in favor of debit cards over CCs. If you're not dumb, there's no difference between them, except with a CC your "credit" improves and (in many cases) you get rewards for using them. I do have my energy bills automatically deducted from my checking account, but that has a cap on the amount they can deduct to prevent errors like that $3,000 bill somebody else mentioned here.

My biggest pet peeve is businesses that won't take my Discover card. Seriously. It's a major card and yet many places that take credit cards won't take that one. My second biggest pet peeve is businesses that won't take credit/debit cards at all. Seriously. Get with the times. These places are the only reason I still carry cash. From what I hear, they're exceedingly rare in Europe.

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MrFlux

I use EFTPOS, which is essentially:

Many many places in New Zealand won't accept cheques anymore, and 99% of stores have EFTPOS.

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mixedmedia

I pay rent, daycare and miscellaneous expenses at my kids' schools with paper checks and everything else with my debit card. Very rarely do I have cash.

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Amnesia620

I watched as friend after friend (including myself) wrote check after check, failed to successfully balance their checkbook (no time or bad math, who knows) and ended up with bounced checks, accounts overdrawn, overdraft fees, and even their bank accounts getting closed.

It is an OK idea to keep a personal Check Register (keep track of your spending with your debit card) in case of ID Theft, etc. but no reason to kill a tree or two, I agree.

I would promote more banks having several choices on what design you'd like to have on your debit card - something like what you can choose for checks but plastic - and semi-permanent, you know?

However, I agree that checks take up time, earthly resources and right up there with C.O.D. (Cash On Delivery).

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