American National Anthem: "Nuestro Himno" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 04-30-2006, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Spanish anthem adds fuel to debate
Activists are split about whom a new foreign-language 'Star-Spangled Banner' will help.

By CINDY CARCAMO
The Orange County Register

Spanish-language pop stars and artist-producer Wyclef Jean jumped into the immigration debate this week after recording their own bilingual version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" as a show of support for illegal immigrants in light of possible immigration changes in Congress.

The song, to be released to radio stations this afternoon and played Friday, has angered opponents of illegal immigration and some immigration advocates, who believe it is unpatriotic, divisive and ultimately damaging to their cause.

Others think the bilingual version will allow Hispanic immigrants who don't speak English to take ownership of the national anthem after better understanding the country's principles and values in their native language.

"This is a poetic way of saying: 'We're here. This is our dream, and we're not here as a threat to anybody,'" said Leo Chavez, professor of anthropology and director of the Chicano Latino Studies program at UC Irvine.

George Key, whose great-grandfather Francis Scott Key wrote the poem in 1814 that eventually became the anthem, called the bilingual version "despicable."

"The national anthem is for Americans, and that's what it should be - in American English."

The song, "Nuestro Himno" ("Our Anthem"), keeps to the anthem's traditional structure but is roughly translated to be more contemporary. The song features more than 20 Spanish-speaking artists, such as Voz a Voz, Frank Reyes and Gloria Trevi.

Music executives Tuesday released lyrics to an alternate version of the Spanish anthem. The alternate version includes an English rap by 11-year-old reggaeton artist P-Star, who says in the song that immigration laws break up families and hurt children.

That version may be released on a CD called "Somos Americanos" ("We are Americans"). The CD is scheduled for release May 16, said executives at Urban Box Office, a New York-based entertainment company and distributor of urban Latin music.

The song is a call for solidarity among immigrants, said Geo Doleo, part of the pop group Voz a Voz from the Dominican Republic.

"We feel like we're a part of one voice. We're here finding the dream. It's a way of saying we're not bad people. We're here to do good things," said Doleo, who sang the chorus.

Disc jockeys at Spanish-language radio stations in Los Angeles and Orange counties, a driving force in rallying thousands to march in the past few months, are eagerly awaiting a copy of the nonrap version of the song. Most plan to play it Friday or Monday.

Enrique Mayans, the program director for Santa Ana-based KWIZ/96.7 FM (El Sonido), said he'll play the song Monday, when large demonstrations against more stringent immigration laws are planned.

"In a way, it's telling people here that even though they are newly arrived and don't know English, they should know the values of this country," he said.

The song's producer, Eduardo Reyes, said it is a way to give back "a little to the migrants who've given to us."

"There were probably 10 million Latinos that couldn't understand (the anthem)," he said. "When the Latino immigrants listen to this anthem and the lyrics, they are going to know more about the meaning than many Americans."

Some immigration supporters, however, think the song sends a mixed message.

"When you listen on the radio about the marches, they tell you not to wave the Mexican flag, but they'll play this anthem. They're contradicting themselves," said Rafael Barajas, former president of the Federation of Zacatecan Clubs of Southern California.

The 54-year-old Anaheim resident said the song will ultimately hurt the movement and may trigger a backlash.

"Wow. What are they doing now?" said Raymundo Chavez of Placentia when he heard about the song on the daytime program "Escandalo T.V." Chavez said the artists are not helping out their own people.

"There are some things you just shouldn't touch, like 'The Star-Spangled Banner,'" Chavez, 65, said. "It was written a certain way, and that's the way it should be sung,"

He said he doesn't feel any more sympathetic toward illegal immigrants after hearing about the song. "Instead of helping their cause, they're setting (it) back," he said

The song doesn't include most people in the United States, said Robin Hvidston, a member of the Minuteman Project who has rallied at day-labor sites in the county.

"I feel excluded," she said. "Most people in the U.S. can't understand the song. It's meant to apply to a certain group of people. It strikes me as being divisive for our nation."

Another group member and illegal-immigration opponent, Lupe Moreno, doesn't see the remake as a bad thing.

"If it's going to bring the meaning to the Latino immigrants about what the nation means to us, then more power to them," said Moreno, president of Latino Americans for Immigration Reform.

The CD will sell for $10, and some of the proceeds will benefit the National Capital Immigration Coalition in Washington, D.C., which supports immigrants rights.

"The Star-Spangled Banner"
(First verse)
O, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O, say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

"Our Anthem"
(Translated from Spanish)
Verse 1
Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail as night falls?
Its stars and stripes floated yesterday
In the fierce combat, the sign of victory
The flame of battle, in step with liberty.
Throughout the night it was said, "It is being defended."
Chorus:
Oh, say! Does it still show its beautiful stars
Over the land of the free, the sacred flag?
Verse 2
Its stars and stripes, liberty, we are the same.
We're brothers, it's our anthem.
In the fierce combat, the sign of victory,
The flame of battle, in step with liberty.
Throughout the night it was said, "It is being defended."
Chorus:
"Oh, say! Does it still show its beautiful stars?
Over the land of the free, the sacred flag?"

Is nothing sacred? Do you go to someone's house and tell them how to arrange their furniture? Can you not accept graciously what the host provides and does not provide?

I think that this is overstepping the line. When I was in the Philippines before the last movie played in a theater they play their national anthem. I didn't want to stand up for it, but it was suggested that I do so lest I get an ass beating. The same was for when living in Singapore, I sat respectfully and quietly as I would expect someone else to do so for my national anthem.

Gatorade Frost · 04-30-2006, 02:58 PM

It annoys me, but I'm not going to do anything about it.

Frankly it seems like the massive demonstrations should be like a great time to round up everyone who can't prove citizenship and ship them back to Mexico. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Grasshopper Green · 04-30-2006, 03:00 PM

I'm torn on the immigration issue, but there's one thing I'm not torn on...if someone moves here, they should learn English. If they want to sing the anthem, sing it in English, the way it was meant to be.

MageB420666 · 04-30-2006, 03:21 PM

Ok, just to get this out, America does NOT have a national language. English is not the national language, despite what you may have been led to believe.

The founding fathers left out assigning a national language for a reason, because America is and always has been a "melting pot" of different cultures.

There is nothing disrespectful or harmful about translating the national anthem into another language, however, changing the lyrics to make it more "contemporary" is somewhat disrespectful. If they want the National Anthem in spanish, they should translate it into spanish, not take artistic liberties. However, changing things in the U.S. to benifit illegal immigrants is wrong. There is a reason they are "illegal" immigrants as opposed to "legal" immigrants. It means they broke the law to be in this country. If they want to be an American, they need to go about it in a legal manner.

MacGuyver · 04-30-2006, 03:29 PM

Sorry bout this but...

It's not the anthem, so relax.

Until people start singing this before sporting events, and on national holidays, there is nothing you can do about it. An artist has the right to arrange any song they want to into anything as long as they dont make an exact replica and call it thier own. And until this is adopted as our national anthem, you'll just be making a big deal out of nothing, so stop wasting your time.

Da Munk · 04-30-2006, 03:31 PM

I don't think this is going to win much support for their cause, but other than that I don't particularly care. It is essentially the same song and I don't see translating it into another language as being offensive or disrespectful.

As was said above, our country has no official language and we have citizens from many backgrounds who speak many languages, I don't see why Spanish should be considered less American than English.

politicophile · 04-30-2006, 03:40 PM

The decision to create this "anthem" seems politically inadvisable. Why would you do something you know will offend a large portion of Americans? This sort of thing reinforces the perception that immigrants want to change America rather than assimilating into it.

Personally, I think the entire concept at work here is stupid. It makes me mildly annoyed that the song is being changed, but not nearly enough to prompt me to actually do anything about it.

docbungle · 04-30-2006, 04:44 PM

Doesn't bother me in the least. Doesn't effect me in the least. Kind of reminds me of the "War On Chrismas" nonsense that so many insisted on actually making an issue.

djtestudo · 04-30-2006, 05:15 PM

If they actually translated the anthem into Spanish, I wouldn't have a problem.

However, if they are calling that song the same thing, then I am offended.

flstf · 04-30-2006, 05:30 PM

They have a great start on an anthem for a new country. I'm not sure we want them to create it here. It is flattering that they think enough of our anthem to model theirs after it though.

ASU2003 · 04-30-2006, 05:31 PM

I agree with djtestudo. That wasn't the anthum sung in spanish. That was something like the Jimi Hendrix version of it. At least Hendrix had the same tune.

I think there should be French, Italian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese(mandarin), Arabic, and what ever language people speak. But, in the US, the English version should be the one played.

raeanna74 · 04-30-2006, 05:58 PM

Wikipedia

It would be nice if people would quit trying to say that since the U.S. does not have an official language it's wrong to ask people to speak the majority language. Especially those who get angry that most American Citizens don't speak the language of many illegal immigrants. Why should we have to cater to people who are breaking our laws??

Quote:

The United States does not have an official language; nevertheless, American English (referred to in the US as simply English) is the language used for legislation, regulations, executive orders, treaties, federal court rulings, and all other official pronouncements. Additionally, one must demonstrate an ability to read, write, and speak English to become a naturalized citizen. Many individual states and territories have also adopted English as their official language:

* Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wyoming

Several states and territories are officially bilingual:

* Louisiana (English and French),
* New Mexico (English and Spanish),
* Hawaii (Hawaiian English and Hawaiian),
* Puerto Rico (Spanish and English),
* Guam (Chamorro and English),
* American Samoa (Samoan and English);

And one is officially trilingual:

* Northern Mariana Islands (English, Chamorro, and Carolinian).

Until the 1950s, Pennsylvania was officially bilingual in English and German.

Native American languages are official or co-official on many of the US Indian reservations and pueblos.

In 2000, the census bureau printed the standard census questionnaires in six languages: English, Spanish, Korean, Chinese (in traditional characters), Vietnamese, and Tagalog. The English-only movement seeks to establish English as the only official language of the entire nation.

According to a poll done in 2000 -
82.105% of families in the U.S. speak English in their home.
10.710% speak Spanish at home.
There are other languages spoken in the home but these are the most common.

I have no problem with the National Anthem being interpreted so that people in other nations or speaking other languages can understand what it says and means. To do it in order to encourage people to stay in the U.S. (especially those who are here illegally) is just wrong. You come to the U.S. You either learn the majority language or function without it but don't expect the majority to cater to you. It just isn't feasible.

Frosstbyte · 05-01-2006, 12:01 AM

Here is the problem with messing with anthems: anthems are not simply national songs. They're nationalistic (used for lack of a better word, no negative connotative value intended) rituals whose performance and the observance of certain ritualized actions during the performance carry a great deal more weight than whatever happens to be in lyrics of the song. Anthems are a participatory part of national identity, in contrast to basically all other parts of that indentity, which is part of what makes them so powerful.

National anthems are common currency, and it should be no surprise that people ought to be allowed to do with them as they choose. Their right to do what they did to the song is unquestionabled.

That being said, I dislike what they've done to the song and I dislike what they're trying to say with it. The Spanish lyrics do not mean the same thing as the English lyrics and the intent of the song is intentionally subversive to the concept of national unity, which is also one of the functions of an anthem.

MacGuyver, you're right, it's not officially the anthem, but they want to use it like one. It'd be one thing for a bunch of musicians to cover it and sing it in Spanish at a concert, ala Hendrix. It's quite another to decide to represent a (mis)translated version of the song as "The United States National Anthem for People Who Can't Understand the English Version."

analog · 05-01-2006, 12:18 AM

While english may not be the "official" language of the whole country, you ARE required to learn it enough to communicate in it to become naturalized- which means this translation is nonsense.

Bottom line is, if you're coming to live in america and be a citizen, you HAVE to learn english to become naturalized... and i'd think one of the FIRST things you should learn IN ENGLISH is the National Anthem. I mean COME ON.

highthief · 05-01-2006, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

When I was in the Philippines before the last movie played in a theater they play their national anthem. I didn't want to stand up for it, but it was suggested that I do so lest I get an ass beating.

I had to pull this out - you expect others to respect your anthem but you couldn't respect theirs enough to stand up without the threat of violence?

Cynthetiq · 05-01-2006, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

I had to pull this out - you expect others to respect your anthem but you couldn't respect theirs enough to stand up without the threat of violence?

When I was expatriated to Singapore it was clearly stated (I'm doublechecking this now) that we do not stand for other country's anthems but sit respectfully and quietly. It could be construed that you are pledging allegiance to a foreign country instead of your own.

Since I am Filipino in heritage but born and raised in the US, a local Filipino would not know that I was not disrespecting their anthem but remaining seated.

As far as your statement of respecting my own, where did I state that I expect them to do anything but just leave it alone? I do not ask them to stand, I do not ask them to do anything.

I do not take the Mexican Anthem, reword it, rearrange the music.

here's what I found in the interim:

Quote:

Student who sat for Mexican Anthem rebuked
Enlistee-to-be feared honoring another nation might jeopardize military status

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 7, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A high-school senior who stayed seated during the playing of the Mexican National Anthem at a campus ceremony – fearing if he stood he might jeopardize his upcoming enlistment in the U.S. military – was reprimanded and sent to the school office.

The 17-year-old son of Robert Bedard of Elgin, Ill., a Chicago suburb, made the choice to stay seated during a ceremony honoring Mexican Independence Day at Larkin High School last month, the Daily Herald reported.

Bedard says his son was in the process of enlisting in the military and feared honoring another nation's anthem might jeopardize his status.
The boy's father, a lieutenant with the Elgin Fire Department, questioned how far cultural sensitivity has gone in his local schools.

"I am concerned that the Mexican Americans have unfairly monopolized the teaching of cultural awareness at this school," Bedard told the suburban paper. "At least that's the perspective of a parent. I'd love to be corrected."

According to the report, Latino students orchestrated an assembly for Mexican Independence Day, just as black students host an assembly commemorating black history month in February.

School board President Ken Kaczynski defended the celebration of different cultures.

"If we were teaching one culture's history over another, then we have an issue. But I don't think that's the case," Kaczynski said.

Last spring, a Larkin student wrote an essay lamenting the celebration of Mexican holidays in American schools, the Herald reported.

The teen faulted Mexican students, saying they shouldn't have lowered the American flag in favor of a Mexican flag on Sept. 16, 2004. School officials later said the American flag was raised again before class began.

"Of the ethnic groups at Larkin," Principal Richard Webb is quoted as saying, "the Hispanic group is growing at the most increased rate, and of that Hispanic group, the vast majority of students are Mexican-American."

Of the 2,550 students at Larkin High last year, 38.4 percent were Hispanic and nearly a quarter were new to English.

"If they have an assembly, I would be happy if they will not try to force students to honor patriotic elements of another culture unless they also honor our flag, our anthem as well," Bedard said. "It's just respect for both cultures."

guthmund · 05-01-2006, 05:46 AM

I'm mostly offended that Wyclef Jean was involved.

How silly is to think this half-assed gesture is going to do anything about anything at all other than the "I've got a hankerin' to listen to some really crappy Wyclef Jean" malaise...

florida0214 · 05-01-2006, 06:23 AM

This is the most absurd thing I have heard. There is no reason why the national anthem shoudl ever be in spanish. Do we sing the mexican anthen in english and the psanish anthem. Hell nw they would definitly have somethign to say about that. This is crazy and I for one am going to at least try and do soemthign about it. This is crap

highthief · 05-01-2006, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

When I was expatriated to Singapore it was clearly stated (I'm doublechecking this now) that we do not stand for other country's anthems but sit respectfully and quietly. It could be construed that you are pledging allegiance to a foreign country instead of your own.

Since I am Filipino in heritage but born and raised in the US, a local Filipino would not know that I was not disrespecting their anthem but remaining seated.

As far as your statement of respecting my own, where did I state that I expect them to do anything but just leave it alone? I do not ask them to stand, I do not ask them to do anything.
I do not take the Mexican Anthem, reword it, rearrange the music.

[/URL]:

Actually, you said: "When I was in the Philippines before the last movie played in a theater they play their national anthem. I didn't want to stand up for it, but it was suggested that I do so lest I get an ass beating. The same was for when living in Singapore, I stood respectfully and quietly as I would expect someone else to do so for my national anthem."

So, from this statement, you sure are expecting them to stand, yet you resisted standing yourself.

IMO, you stand for a national anthem - I'm not American but if I go to a sporting event in the US, for example, and they play the anthem, I sure as heck stand. It's a sign of respect. I might not hold my hand over my heart or salute the flag, as these are gestures for American citizens, but I will stand for the anthem.

Cynthetiq · 05-01-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Actually, you said: "When I was in the Philippines before the last movie played in a theater they play their national anthem. I didn't want to stand up for it, but it was suggested that I do so lest I get an ass beating. The same was for when living in Singapore, I stood respectfully and quietly as I would expect someone else to do so for my national anthem."

So, from this statement, you sure are expecting them to stand, yet you resisted standing yourself.

IMO, you stand for a national anthem - I'm not American but if I go to a sporting event in the US, for example, and they play the anthem, I sure as heck stand. It's a sign of respect. I might not hold my hand over my heart or salute the flag, as these are gestures for American citizens, but I will stand for the anthem.

sorry, I see where the error is, I *SAT* is the correct words and action. my apologies.

I do not stand for some other country's anthem.

It's not mine to stand for. From what I can recall, if you are in a foreign country and you are consistently seen as saluting another nation's flag/anthem, then your citizenship can be questioned and possibly revoked.

Quote:

Citizenship is defined as a relationship between an individual and a country involving the person’s allegiance and membership to that country. You can lose your U-S citizenship whether you’re native or naturalized for several reasons. For example, if you voluntarily undergo naturalization or take an oath of allegiance to another government or country, you could lose your citizenship. Unauthorized service in foreign armed forces, certain employment by a foreign government, voting in a foreign election, formal declaration of your desire to terminate citizenship, desertion, treason, and avoiding the draft are also reasons you might be stripped of your U-S citizenship.

BigBen · 05-01-2006, 07:04 AM

And to answer your original question,

No, nothing is sacred.

The_Jazz · 05-01-2006, 07:14 AM

I for one think that we should sing the anthem exactly as Francis Scott Key wrote it, note for note.

Wait, Francis Scott Key wrote a poem, not a song? And someone else set it to words?

And the way its sung varies singer to singer (i.e. Whitney Houston vs. Roseanne)? And sometimes there aren't even any words at all?

Sorry, but this is a non-issue. It's a song. If this were the Georgia state song, then there would be something to discuss since that song is officiall "'Georgia On My Mind' as sung by Ray Charles". There is no "official" version of the National Anthem, so if you're mad that someone changed the words, you should also be mad at all those boy scouts who do the exact same thing to make it more entertaining (being a former boy scout myself, I've done the same thing).

If you don't like this version, don't buy it. It's the artists' First Amendment right to change it as they see fit, and I don't see how it's disrespectful at all. If it helps someone understand the lyrics describing a relatively unimportant event in a fairly minor war, then all the better.

flstf · 05-01-2006, 08:45 AM

Perhaps they should also redesign our flag to be more easily understood.

Whittier area students from Pioneer, California and Whittier high schools walked out of classes to protest the proposed federal immigration bill March 27, 2006. The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High. (Leo Jarzomb/Staff photo)

"Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming"

Carno · 05-01-2006, 09:10 AM

What the fuck?

If I saw someone raising a foreign flag over the US flag, they would be in for a severe ass beating. What the fuck do some bitch ass high school students think they know that allows them to do that? They haven't earned any right to open their mouths about something like that. Most of them probably have never even paid taxes yet.

highthief · 05-01-2006, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

sorry, I see where the error is, I *SAT* is the correct words and action. my apologies.

I do not stand for some other country's anthem.

It's not mine to stand for. From what I can recall, if you are in a foreign country and you are consistently seen as saluting another nation's flag/anthem, then your citizenship can be questioned and possibly revoked.

Thank you for the clarification.

I have no idea what the laws are elsewhere, however my Canadian citizenship cannot be revoked for standing for another nation's customs and traditions when you are in that country. I imagine the same is true in the U.S., but an American would know better.

This happens all the time - if I go to a hockey game between the Montreal Canadiens and the Boston Bruins, they play both anthems. And pretty well, all the people stand for both. I have not been to a game in the US, but having seen them on TV, again, people stand for both anthems. At the Olympics, if the games are in Torino, Italy as they were this winter, and a German won an event, everyone stood and honoured the anthem be they German, Italian, American, Canadian or other.

The_Jazz · 05-01-2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

What the fuck?

If I saw someone raising a foreign flag over the US flag, they would be in for a severe ass beating. What the fuck do some bitch ass high school students think they know that allows them to do that? They haven't earned any right to open their mouths about something like that. Most of them probably have never even paid taxes yet.

Welcome to the First Amendment and free speech, which is apparently what these "bitch ass" kids know all about. You may not like the message, but that doesn't give them any less right to spout it off. If they're citizens, they certainly have earned "the right to open their mouths". You're presupposing that none of these kids are US citizens, which almost certainly NOT the case. Citizens and legal residents have every right to make this kind of statement, just like you have every right to be offended by it.

Diminishing their rights diminishes yours at the same time.

Carno · 05-01-2006, 10:05 AM

Who the fuck said anything about denying them their right to do that? I just said they'd be in for an ass beating. And where exactly did I presuppose that those kids aren't US citizens?

They haven't earned shit. They have those rights because they were born into them. They have been given those rights, but they have not fucking earned them. Those kids can spend some time in the military or in public service, and then they will have earned something. Until then, they should be more respectful to those who fought and died for that flag.

flstf · 05-01-2006, 10:21 AM

I suspect that many immigrants illegal and otherwise are interested in more than just a new national anthem.

Billboard in Los Angeles.

I know the LA billboard is just advertising but it is funny considering the recent demonstrations.

The_Jazz · 05-01-2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

Who the fuck said anything about denying them their right to do that? I just said they'd be in for an ass beating. And where exactly did I presuppose that those kids aren't US citizens?

They haven't earned shit. They have those rights because they were born into them. They have been given those rights, but they have not fucking earned them. Those kids can spend some time in the military or in public service, and then they will have earned something. Until then, they should be more respectful to those who fought and died for that flag.

So someone who hasn't served doesn't deserve rights? How about if they spend time helping the homeless (public service)? How about if they lost a father or a brother in action? Can you tell me exactly how an American citizen earns rights?

As far as who mentioned denying their rights, I think that was you when you mentioned "beating their asses". Beating a black man because he would dare exercise his right to vote is denying him his right. Just because you aren't acting as a government agent doesn't mean that you're denying the right to make the statement.

Look, I don't like flag burning or hanging the flag upside down, but I also think that soldiers die for more than a scrap of cloth. They die for the ideas that that scrap represents, and one of those ideas happens to be free speach, which is an inalienable right regardless of whatever your notion who has "earned" that right or not. I fully support your right to be pissed off up to the point that you start "beating ass" - that's when I support the guys beating your ass.

Willravel · 05-01-2006, 11:44 AM

I know the flag salute in German. Who cares? If people want to show their appreciation for the US, let them. I support anyone who loves their country and wants to sing about it.

Carno · 05-01-2006, 03:45 PM

Actually, I don't think anyone who has not done any type of public service has really earned their rights. Those rights were earned for them by the people who did do public service. Sure they deserve them, but have they earned them simply because they were born here? Not in my opinion. How can you earn something by doing nothing? Doesn't mean I think that people should not be allowed to exercise their rights though.

In any case, my original post had nothing to do with the Bill of Rights. When I said, "They haven't earned any right to open their mouths about something like that" I meant more along the lines of me having no right to walk up to a Gunny and telling him what to do. Sure, freedom of speech has accorded me the right to run my mouth, but I have no right to tell someone better than me what to do.

And furthermore, it actually is against the law for a foreign flag to be raised above the US flag.

Quote:

No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy.

and

Quote:

When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

Quote:

Look, I don't like flag burning or hanging the flag upside down, but I also think that soldiers die for more than a scrap of cloth. They die for the ideas that that scrap represents, and one of those ideas happens to be free speach, which is an inalienable right regardless of whatever your notion who has "earned" that right or not.

Blah blah blah... Burning a flag or hanging it upside down is more than just burning a scrap of cloth. Burning a flag represents a disrespect and disregard for the ideas that the flag stands for. Military personnel go through a lot of trouble raising and lowering the flag each day and playing colors. Do they do all that for a scrap of cloth? No, they do it because the flag is a symbol.

And like I said before, it is illegal to hang a foreign flag above the US flag, so they don't even have that right.

Gatorade Frost · 05-01-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

I guess that means we're at war now?

djtestudo · 05-01-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I for one think that we should sing the anthem exactly as Francis Scott Key wrote it, note for note.

Wait, Francis Scott Key wrote a poem, not a song? And someone else set it to words?

And the way its sung varies singer to singer (i.e. Whitney Houston vs. Roseanne)? And sometimes there aren't even any words at all?

Sorry, but this is a non-issue. It's a song. If this were the Georgia state song, then there would be something to discuss since that song is officiall "'Georgia On My Mind' as sung by Ray Charles". There is no "official" version of the National Anthem, so if you're mad that someone changed the words, you should also be mad at all those boy scouts who do the exact same thing to make it more entertaining (being a former boy scout myself, I've done the same thing).

If you don't like this version, don't buy it. It's the artists' First Amendment right to change it as they see fit, and I don't see how it's disrespectful at all. If it helps someone understand the lyrics describing a relatively unimportant event in a fairly minor war, then all the better.

The problem is, then it is no longer the same song.

That is like saying a Weird Al version of a song is the same as the original.

I don't believe that people SHOULDN'T be allowed to change words or parts of the tune (I was in the scouts as well

), but that it shouldn't be considered in any way an equivilent substitute.

A Spanish version of the National Anthem would look more like this (from Google Language Tools, so it's probably butchered to all hell...):

¿O,por ejemplo, puede usted ver, por la luz temprana del amanecer, qué nosotros granizó tan orgulloso en destellar pasado del crepúsculo?

¿De quién amplias rayas y estrellas brillantes, con la lucha peligrosa, sobre los terraplenes miramos, tan gallantly fluíamos?

Y el fulgor rojo de los cohetes, las bombas que estallaban en aire, dio la prueba con la noche que nuestra bandera todavía estaba allí.

¿O,por ejemplo, esa bandera estrella-star-spangled todavía agita sobre la tierra del libre y el hogar del valiente?

In other words, a (more or less) direct translation.

filtherton · 05-01-2006, 06:09 PM

I think it's a nonissue. Why should i care if someone takes an overly sentimental exercise in nationalism and rewrites it a bit? I think the national anthem should be updated. They should throw in a few verses about the cold war, brinksmanship, proxy wars, massive self deception, conditional support for the spread of democracy, oil based foreign policy, etc. You get the point, there really is so much more to america than is actually said in the national anthem.

spindles · 05-01-2006, 06:33 PM

I kinda find it funny that people think you can make a "perfect" translation of a song. The re-translation seems to be at least along the right lines. You might not be able to translate it any more literally...

I think this is a storm in a teacup - it is *not* the national anthem but just a different interpretation of a well known tune.

If they translate "Advance Australia Fair" then I'll be pissed! no, not really. I couldn't give a flying #$%^

Marvelous Marv · 05-01-2006, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

here's what I found in the interim:

I gather from this that a student can be required to stand for the Mexican anthem, but it was established in California that a student is NOT be required to stand for the pledge of allegiance.

How logical.

xepherys · 05-02-2006, 08:07 AM

Carno-

WTF are you talking about? First of all, the PROTESTORS did this as a symbol of the disrespect Mexican Americans are showing. Flying Mexico flag above ours is a statement that either, a) They are declaring a war of sorts (political) or b) they think they are the new wave of Americans (social). Also, flying the American flag upside down (and most national flags as I understand it) is a sign of distress. This is not a disrespectful device. In this instance it is showing distress of the US due to Mexican influences. As a soldier in the United States Army, I respect and applaud this well designed protest. It is well within the guidelines of international understanding and is not disrespectful to our country (it is, realistically, QUITE disrespectful to Mexico, however).

Also, the burning of a flag is not only a protest option, but also the PROPER way to give a flag it's last salute. The destruction of a US Flag, either due to age and wear or because it has touched the ground, is to burn and bury it. This is how the military disposes of it's flags. Government offices usually give their flags over to the local VFW chapter to do the same. I applaud your patriotism 100%... I just think you should know the facts.

Carno · 05-02-2006, 08:28 AM

I guess I misunderstood the point of the flag thing then. I assumed it was making the opposite point. Thanks for the post, because I completely misunderstood what the point they were trying to make was.

Quote:

Also, the burning of a flag is not only a protest option, but also the PROPER way to give a flag it's last salute. The destruction of a US Flag, either due to age and wear or because it has touched the ground, is to burn and bury it. This is how the military disposes of it's flags. Government offices usually give their flags over to the local VFW chapter to do the same. I applaud your patriotism 100%... I just think you should know the facts.

Umm, I know the facts, thanks.

What I was referring to when I said flag burning was not the respectful disposal of an old flag, but the burning of the flag by foreigners.

The_Jazz · 05-02-2006, 08:44 AM

I've been trying to figure out how to respond for a while now, and hopefully I can do it without being a jerk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

Actually, I don't think anyone who has not done any type of public service has really earned their rights. Those rights were earned for them by the people who did do public service. Sure they deserve them, but have they earned them simply because they were born here? Not in my opinion. How can you earn something by doing nothing? Doesn't mean I think that people should not be allowed to exercise their rights though.

In the US, rights by their very definition are not "earned". Rights are inalienable and every citizen enjoys them regardless of military service. The word "earn" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. Your military service does not give you any special privledges beyond those customary to active duty personnel, nor should it. I can't follow your logic where you think that people "deserve" their rights but haven't "earned" them. There's no distiction that I can come up with that would apply to all citizens. Frankly, your whole statement strikes me as bizarre, but that's me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

In any case, my original post had nothing to do with the Bill of Rights. When I said, "They haven't earned any right to open their mouths about something like that" I meant more along the lines of me having no right to walk up to a Gunny and telling him what to do. Sure, freedom of speech has accorded me the right to run my mouth, but I have no right to tell someone better than me what to do.

You don't have the right to tell off a gunny because of the Military Code of Conduct, not because of some notion of earned or unearned rights. The military has a separate hierarchy from the rest of society for very good reasons, and there's very little overlap. If you're not on base and out of uniform, you can express your views (if I remember the CoC correctly), but this is apples and oranges. Civilians are not and should not be held to the same standards as military personnel, and that's one of the rights that you're serving to protect. For instance, I have the right to go up to a gunny on the street and tell him that I think that all gunnies are closet communists (not that I do, just making a point). That's my right to express my opinion. If he hits me, he's the one guilty of assault, and I've made a statement that's protected by the 1st Amendment. If you say the same thing on base, not only will you get the beatdown, but you'll probably be up on charges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

And furthermore, it actually is against the law for a foreign flag to be raised above the US flag.

Blah blah blah... Burning a flag or hanging it upside down is more than just burning a scrap of cloth. Burning a flag represents a disrespect and disregard for the ideas that the flag stands for. Military personnel go through a lot of trouble raising and lowering the flag each day and playing colors. Do they do all that for a scrap of cloth? No, they do it because the flag is a symbol.

And like I said before, it is illegal to hang a foreign flag above the US flag, so they don't even have that right.

Actually, the law that you referrenced is for "official display" and there are no penalties associated with it. If I, as a private citizen, want to display the flag in a non-proscribed manner, I'm allowed. If I want to do it as a government employee on government property, I'm not. I can go home right now and hang my flag on my front porch upside down with the Soviet flag above it, and no one can make me take it down. I won't do that because it's not a statement that I want to make, but it's perfectly legal for me to do so. As far as the flag being a symbol, that's the whole point here. As a civilian, I'm allowed to make statements using that symbol, and it's a 1st Amendment right of mine to do so. I choose not to do so because of my personal beliefs, but if I change my mind, YOU are fighting for MY right to. You don't have to like it, but that's the way the system works. Sorry if you don't like it, but it's the world (and country) we live in.

raeanna74 · 05-02-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think it's a nonissue. Why should i care if someone takes an overly sentimental exercise in nationalism and rewrites it a bit? I think the national anthem should be updated. They should throw in a few verses about the cold war, brinksmanship, proxy wars, massive self deception, conditional support for the spread of democracy, oil based foreign policy, etc. You get the point, there really is so much more to america than is actually said in the national anthem.

Yes, America is currently more complicated than the anthem depicts. I personally look at the national anthem of our beginnings, of what our country was intended to be in the first place and what it should STILL be. It's not supposed to describe our country but it's supposed to inspire a pride, and service to our country. Just my 2 cents.

View Poll Results: Do you care?
I'm totally offended!	16	23.88%
Where do I buy the MP3 so that I can sing it?	10	14.93%
No, I do but not enough to do anything about it.	16	23.88%
Yes, I do but not enough to do anything about it.	17	25.37%
Yes, and I'm going to do something about it.	8	11.94%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

04-30-2006, 02:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	It annoys me, but I'm not going to do anything about it. Frankly it seems like the massive demonstrations should be like a great time to round up everyone who can't prove citizenship and ship them back to Mexico. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

04-30-2006, 03:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I'm torn on the immigration issue, but there's one thing I'm not torn on...if someone moves here, they should learn English. If they want to sing the anthem, sing it in English, the way it was meant to be. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

04-30-2006, 03:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
MageB420666 <Insert wise statement here> Location: Hell if I know	Ok, just to get this out, America does NOT have a national language. English is not the national language, despite what you may have been led to believe. The founding fathers left out assigning a national language for a reason, because America is and always has been a "melting pot" of different cultures. There is nothing disrespectful or harmful about translating the national anthem into another language, however, changing the lyrics to make it more "contemporary" is somewhat disrespectful. If they want the National Anthem in spanish, they should translate it into spanish, not take artistic liberties. However, changing things in the U.S. to benifit illegal immigrants is wrong. There is a reason they are "illegal" immigrants as opposed to "legal" immigrants. It means they broke the law to be in this country. If they want to be an American, they need to go about it in a legal manner. __________________ Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

04-30-2006, 03:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
MacGuyver You're going to have to trust me! Location: Massachusetts	Sorry bout this but... It's not the anthem, so relax. Until people start singing this before sporting events, and on national holidays, there is nothing you can do about it. An artist has the right to arrange any song they want to into anything as long as they dont make an exact replica and call it thier own. And until this is adopted as our national anthem, you'll just be making a big deal out of nothing, so stop wasting your time. __________________ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher

04-30-2006, 03:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
Da Munk Crazy	I don't think this is going to win much support for their cause, but other than that I don't particularly care. It is essentially the same song and I don't see translating it into another language as being offensive or disrespectful. As was said above, our country has no official language and we have citizens from many backgrounds who speak many languages, I don't see why Spanish should be considered less American than English.

04-30-2006, 03:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	The decision to create this "anthem" seems politically inadvisable. Why would you do something you know will offend a large portion of Americans? This sort of thing reinforces the perception that immigrants want to change America rather than assimilating into it. Personally, I think the entire concept at work here is stupid. It makes me mildly annoyed that the song is being changed, but not nearly enough to prompt me to actually do anything about it. __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

04-30-2006, 04:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	Doesn't bother me in the least. Doesn't effect me in the least. Kind of reminds me of the "War On Chrismas" nonsense that so many insisted on actually making an issue. __________________ Bad Luck City

04-30-2006, 05:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	If they actually translated the anthem into Spanish, I wouldn't have a problem. However, if they are calling that song the same thing, then I am offended. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

04-30-2006, 05:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	They have a great start on an anthem for a new country. I'm not sure we want them to create it here. It is flattering that they think enough of our anthem to model theirs after it though.

04-30-2006, 05:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I agree with djtestudo. That wasn't the anthum sung in spanish. That was something like the Jimi Hendrix version of it. At least Hendrix had the same tune. I think there should be French, Italian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese(mandarin), Arabic, and what ever language people speak. But, in the US, the English version should be the one played.

05-01-2006, 12:01 AM	#13 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Here is the problem with messing with anthems: anthems are not simply national songs. They're nationalistic (used for lack of a better word, no negative connotative value intended) rituals whose performance and the observance of certain ritualized actions during the performance carry a great deal more weight than whatever happens to be in lyrics of the song. Anthems are a participatory part of national identity, in contrast to basically all other parts of that indentity, which is part of what makes them so powerful. National anthems are common currency, and it should be no surprise that people ought to be allowed to do with them as they choose. Their right to do what they did to the song is unquestionabled. That being said, I dislike what they've done to the song and I dislike what they're trying to say with it. The Spanish lyrics do not mean the same thing as the English lyrics and the intent of the song is intentionally subversive to the concept of national unity, which is also one of the functions of an anthem. MacGuyver, you're right, it's not officially the anthem, but they want to use it like one. It'd be one thing for a bunch of musicians to cover it and sing it in Spanish at a concert, ala Hendrix. It's quite another to decide to represent a (mis)translated version of the song as "The United States National Anthem for People Who Can't Understand the English Version."

05-01-2006, 12:18 AM	#14 (permalink)
analog Banned	While english may not be the "official" language of the whole country, you ARE required to learn it enough to communicate in it to become naturalized- which means this translation is nonsense. Bottom line is, if you're coming to live in america and be a citizen, you HAVE to learn english to become naturalized... and i'd think one of the FIRST things you should learn IN ENGLISH is the National Anthem. I mean COME ON.

05-01-2006, 05:46 AM	#17 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I'm mostly offended that Wyclef Jean was involved. How silly is to think this half-assed gesture is going to do anything about anything at all other than the "I've got a hankerin' to listen to some really crappy Wyclef Jean" malaise... __________________ No signature. None. Seriously. Last edited by guthmund; 05-01-2006 at 05:50 AM..

05-01-2006, 06:23 AM	#18 (permalink)
florida0214 Crazy Location: South Florida	This is the most absurd thing I have heard. There is no reason why the national anthem shoudl ever be in spanish. Do we sing the mexican anthen in english and the psanish anthem. Hell nw they would definitly have somethign to say about that. This is crazy and I for one am going to at least try and do soemthign about it. This is crap __________________ "Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

05-01-2006, 07:04 AM	#21 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	And to answer your original question, No, nothing is sacred. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-01-2006, 07:14 AM	#22 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I for one think that we should sing the anthem exactly as Francis Scott Key wrote it, note for note. Wait, Francis Scott Key wrote a poem, not a song? And someone else set it to words? And the way its sung varies singer to singer (i.e. Whitney Houston vs. Roseanne)? And sometimes there aren't even any words at all? Sorry, but this is a non-issue. It's a song. If this were the Georgia state song, then there would be something to discuss since that song is officiall "'Georgia On My Mind' as sung by Ray Charles". There is no "official" version of the National Anthem, so if you're mad that someone changed the words, you should also be mad at all those boy scouts who do the exact same thing to make it more entertaining (being a former boy scout myself, I've done the same thing). If you don't like this version, don't buy it. It's the artists' First Amendment right to change it as they see fit, and I don't see how it's disrespectful at all. If it helps someone understand the lyrics describing a relatively unimportant event in a fairly minor war, then all the better. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-01-2006, 08:45 AM	#23 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Perhaps they should also redesign our flag to be more easily understood. Whittier area students from Pioneer, California and Whittier high schools walked out of classes to protest the proposed federal immigration bill March 27, 2006. The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High. (Leo Jarzomb/Staff photo) "Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight, O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming"

05-01-2006, 09:10 AM	#24 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	What the fuck? If I saw someone raising a foreign flag over the US flag, they would be in for a severe ass beating. What the fuck do some bitch ass high school students think they know that allows them to do that? They haven't earned any right to open their mouths about something like that. Most of them probably have never even paid taxes yet. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

05-01-2006, 10:05 AM	#27 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Who the fuck said anything about denying them their right to do that? I just said they'd be in for an ass beating. And where exactly did I presuppose that those kids aren't US citizens? They haven't earned shit. They have those rights because they were born into them. They have been given those rights, but they have not fucking earned them. Those kids can spend some time in the military or in public service, and then they will have earned something. Until then, they should be more respectful to those who fought and died for that flag. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

05-01-2006, 10:21 AM	#28 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I suspect that many immigrants illegal and otherwise are interested in more than just a new national anthem. Billboard in Los Angeles. I know the LA billboard is just advertising but it is funny considering the recent demonstrations.

05-01-2006, 11:44 AM	#30 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I know the flag salute in German. Who cares? If people want to show their appreciation for the US, let them. I support anyone who loves their country and wants to sing about it.

05-01-2006, 06:09 PM	#34 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think it's a nonissue. Why should i care if someone takes an overly sentimental exercise in nationalism and rewrites it a bit? I think the national anthem should be updated. They should throw in a few verses about the cold war, brinksmanship, proxy wars, massive self deception, conditional support for the spread of democracy, oil based foreign policy, etc. You get the point, there really is so much more to america than is actually said in the national anthem.

05-01-2006, 06:33 PM	#35 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	I kinda find it funny that people think you can make a "perfect" translation of a song. The re-translation seems to be at least along the right lines. You might not be able to translate it any more literally... I think this is a storm in a teacup - it is not the national anthem but just a different interpretation of a well known tune. If they translate "Advance Australia Fair" then I'll be pissed! no, not really. I couldn't give a flying #$%^ __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

05-02-2006, 08:07 AM	#37 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Carno- WTF are you talking about? First of all, the PROTESTORS did this as a symbol of the disrespect Mexican Americans are showing. Flying Mexico flag above ours is a statement that either, a) They are declaring a war of sorts (political) or b) they think they are the new wave of Americans (social). Also, flying the American flag upside down (and most national flags as I understand it) is a sign of distress. This is not a disrespectful device. In this instance it is showing distress of the US due to Mexican influences. As a soldier in the United States Army, I respect and applaud this well designed protest. It is well within the guidelines of international understanding and is not disrespectful to our country (it is, realistically, QUITE disrespectful to Mexico, however). Also, the burning of a flag is not only a protest option, but also the PROPER way to give a flag it's last salute. The destruction of a US Flag, either due to age and wear or because it has touched the ground, is to burn and bury it. This is how the military disposes of it's flags. Government offices usually give their flags over to the local VFW chapter to do the same. I applaud your patriotism 100%... I just think you should know the facts.