The_Dunedan

Folks, this one will turn your stomach. H-S Precision rifles, builder of high-end sniper rifles for the U.S. Military and various L-E agencies, has just released their latest catalog. And on the back cover is a full-page endorsement by none other than LON HORIUCHI, the FBI sniper responsible for the murder of Vicki Weaver, the attempted murders of Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, and who also served as a "disincentive to exit" the burning Mt. Carmel Church at Waco, TX.

For those too young to remember, this is the piece of human filth who said, after murdering Vicki Weaver, that;

1: He thought the baby girl in her arms was a gun.
2: He was -actually- shooting at someone else, but missed.
3: She was behind a solid door, he couldn't see her, and for some reason he felt like shooting through the door. Too bad, so sad, terrible accident.

He's been living in hiding since 1993, and for good reason. I would pay money, GOOD money, to see what Randy and Elishiba Weaver would do to him in a locked room.

So I'm asking all you gunnies here, contact H-S Precision and let them know how disgusting this is. Let them know loudly and often. Then contact every company they do business with, the NRA, Ducks Unlimited, Cabelas, and Dick's Sporting Goods, all of whom either distribute H-S Precision products or who's logo appears in the ad alongside Horiuchi's name. Let them know too. ZUMBO these motherfuckers!

H-S Precison. Remember, when you absolutely, positively, have -GOT- to shoot a nursing mother in the back, accept no substitutes.

Plan9

Wow, that's like using the old DC mayor as a "DARE" drug program spokesman.

Douchebaggery.

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"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

Well believe it or not he has his supporters too. I don't get it but they are out there, especially in the Fed LE system. I guess some of those guys feel like he was doing his job and it could have been them. Personally I find shooting people in poor taste, certainly unless they have a gun pointed at me or mine. So yeah I'm no fan. But they wouldn't put him out there if they didn't think it would help with the LE contract sales, IMO.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

I'm sure they had a pool of other shooters to choose from, I'd imagine... and they went with him. Bad move.

Besides... anybody that can afford an H-S can afford better.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

we'll be hearing about the backlash and company response soon. I've heard alot of phone calls and letters have been hitting corporate.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

The real question: Is DK's secluded compound fortified enough to handle gummint guys with H-S Precisions?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

just like a marine sniper, they'll never see me til its too late.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

...especially your income tax, right? You fight the man, DK. Just remember I'm still your buddy when I come to serve that no-knock warrant at 3 AM.

...

Just kidding.

...

I guess the big thing to remember is that companies like this cater specifically to law enforcement as a vast majority of civilians can't afford or wouldn't want their type of product. A lot of products marketed in the LE field are like this: represented by overweight white guys with crew cuts and Oakley sunglasses doing "tactical stuff."

Many moons ago, the CATO institute did a report on the militarization of police forces in the US and found some pretty disturbing trends. The primary issue is that "law enforcement" somehow equates to "I've got a gun and I'll shoot you," instead of "To serve and protect," for a lot of people in uniform and civilians dealing with the those in uniform. The implement used to defend (be it handgun or shoulder arm) has somehow become the dominating symbol of the occupation. When you ask somebody what they think when they think cop, they'll mention "gun" over "badge" or "blue uniform" or "squad car" even though most officers rarely ever have to use their guns in the line of duty.

I didn't think that the police / sheriff's depts in the US were paramilitary boys clubs, but it turns out I may be wrong.

Blegch. What a violent world. It saddens me.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

If they didnt want to be shot at, they shouldnt have engaged in illegal activities and then shot at the cops.

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Calmer than you are...

Tully Mars

Vicki Weaver shot how many rounds at cops?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

Okay, I can't be nice anymore. Randy Weaver is a total douchebag and should have been shot first on that day.

The Waco guy? David Change-My-Name McWhiteJesus? Capping him would have saved a lot of lives, too.

Too bad the good guys have rules that prevent them from doing what would be in the best interest of those involved.

Remember the confused cracker motto: "One man's paranoid racist white trash piece of human filth is another man's patriot."

Let's all fly some confederate flags, wave our copy of The Turner Diaries, and go buy some ANFO. Ignorant motherfuckers.

...

(sigh)

My only issue with the whole shebang is that the police have the ability to wait for a long period of time. Negotiate, etc.

They're not special forces delta super ninjas... they don't have to exercise the dynamic entry kill-the-bastards option after they get bored.

I think the whole world plays too many video games. Civvies are ready to shoot, cops are ready to shoot... and nobody thinks it through.

Police need to chill the hell out. They've got to realize they have the upper hand 90% of the time and use that power to save lives.

Even in situations where common sense would say that a bullet to the head would be safer, faster, and cheaper than a day in court.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

When your actions cause your boss,FBI director Louis Freeh, to state to the U.S. Senate hearing investigating the incident that "synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement" and "law enforcement overreacted at Ruby Ridge." You're probably doing it wrong.

A Justice Department review later found Horiuchi's second shot (the one that ended Vicki Weaver's life) was unconstitutional and the lack of a request to surrender was "inexcusable", since Harris and the two Weavers were running for cover and could not pose an imminent threat. The task force also specifically blamed Horiuchi for firing through the door, not knowing whether someone was on the other side of it. While controversy exists as to who issued the orders that were being followed by the sniper, the task force also condemned the so-called "rules of engagement" allowing shots to be fired with no request for surrender.

When you fail to follow your own rules you're doing it wrong.

Talking is cheap and requires a lot less paperwork. Not to mention talking rarely leads to fatalities. "Kill'em all, let God sort'em out" is a mildly humorous slogan for a t-shirt. It's a terrible strategy for law enforcement.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

Well put.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

with all due respect to you crompsin, randy weaver may have been a total douchebag, but didn't do anything to deserve being shot at, much less being shot at first. The only illegal thing he did voluntarily was sell some shotguns that the government said were illegal. With regards to the Waco issue, agents KNEW that Koresh made several weekly trips in to town and could have arrested him at any time once outside the compound, then the rest of the compound would have most likely quietly surrendered. The ATF had to make a big show of a raid in order to prevent a budget cut.

The feds blew it, major league blown, and barely paid any price.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

Like I said... everybody is a dumbass.

LE seems like a bunch of trigger-happy doughboys in Oakleys.

Throw in the domestic psychos and it makes the combination all the more volatile.

Nobody wins and we all get to be pocket philosophers.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

I think youre all missing the point here. Horiuchi made a helluva shot. He shot a crouching woman, partially exposed for a fraction of a second in a doorway, who happened to be holding a baby at the time. He fired, missed the baby and hit the woman resulting in a one shot kill. THAT is precision shooting. The kind you can build an advertising campaign around.

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Calmer than you are...

Tully Mars

I disagree, that's shooting an unarmed person and in direct violation of the agency that employed him not to mention the constitution of the US.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

Walter, what did you say about killing women in children when you were a door gunner in 'Nam? "You just don't lead as much!"

...

Ya know, ASP and Monadnock should totally use racially-charged police beatings in their collapsing baton ads.

"YOU CAN BEAT A [RACIAL SLUR], BUT YOU CAN'T BEAT THE QUALITY OF OUR PRODUCT!"

...

SUPER ULTRA BAD TASTE:

Yeah. YEAH! Hey, I've got it: when I decide to defy the gummint and fight the system and become a true patriot and get AWL WY-ULD 'N KRAY-ZEE... I'm gonna get one of those sporty Baby Bjorn kid-on-chest harnesses to sit above my Multicam Crye Precision blast belt with the FastMag pouches for my stereotypical tricked AR.

Beat that! A rack system that holds 240 rounds of 5.56 AND features an innocent screaming poo factory as torso protection. It weighs a lot less than a pair of stand alone Lvl 4 plates (like the ones I had stolen in A-stan in '06, bastards).

Maybe I should write STRIKE FACE on the kid's forehead. What a hoot.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

So...how is this any different from shooting a guy carrying nothing more than binos and a radio who just happens to be spotting for a mortar team? The spotter is unarmed and defenseless.

The Weaver chick willingly opened the door to provide cover/concealment to a guy who had just shot Feds. She aided the enemy and her chosen course of action bit her in her racially superior arse.
-----Added 30/11/2008 at 07 : 50 : 00-----
If you ask me, the real crime was Randy Weavers beard.

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Calmer than you are...

Plan9

I reckon old Whoreriuchi was already a stage and a half into a two stage trigger. I'd bet she spooked 'em and suddenly developed a second navel.

...

This thread is makin' my millenium.

-----Added 30/11/2008 at 07 : 53 : 55-----
Whoa, shit. Intense. Compare the scraggly face-apron to that sweet crew cut. He's Marine Corps on top and spaced-out hobo down below.

...

Expert marksman couldn't focus on him during the standoff due to his overwhelming facial hair.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

Somehow I don't think the Justice Dept. would have found the shooting to be in violation of the constitution if there were no difference. Believe what you want. If you want to believe shooting an unarmed civilian who posed no direct threat makes sense, then by all means believe that. I'm not buying it and neither did the FBI or the Justice Dept.

listo aqui.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Walt

Apparently the FBI and the Justice Dept didnt have too much of a problem with it as the case against Horiuchi was dismissed. Twice. The FBI then felt confident enough in Horiuchis judgement and abilities to put him behind a gun in Waco.

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Calmer than you are...

The_Dunedan

Walter, I can't decide if you're being beautifully sarcastic (if so, WELL DONE!) or if you left your prefrontal cortex on the floor of a 'Slick back in Vietnam after losing an argument with a 14.5.

Walt

I am not being sarcastic nor have I gone full retard. I fully stand by my statements:

Vicky Weaver aided a murderous criminal and in doing so, became a criminal. She made her choices and had to live with them (though not for long). Sometimes you bite the bear, sometimes the bear bites you.

Horiuchi made a helluva (justified) shot and if I could afford it, I would throw in for a HS Precision rifle. If nothing else, its proven.

Randy Weavers beard is atrocious and deserves mockery.

/You never go full retard.

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The_Dunedan

And you're seeing the beard on a -good- day; I ran into him at a gun-show a few years back and swore the beard had developed a central nervous system and primitive eyes.

Plan9

Whoa, you're telling me that Randy Weaver's beard is really the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

...

Also, your last post is the perfect setup to some joke we haven't heard yet...

"So, I ran into heavily-bearded Randy Weaver at a gun show..."

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

Im not surprised. Gun enthusiasts tend to neglect personal hygiene in their persuit of antisocial activities.

I met Lon Horiuchi a few years back when I was on a high school field trip to the FBI headquarters at Quantico. The guy was a shell of a man. His body language just screamed 'defeat' and he wouldnt make eye contact. Im surprised he's still around. I'd have thought he would have chewed on a gun barrel by now.

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Calmer than you are...

Plan9

I just snorted like a ditzy school girl.

...

That doesn't mean you can open fire, either.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Slims

Walter does live in the past...

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Walt

Ok, so it was more than a few years ago. And I was taking one of those Law Enforcement classes. We got to do combatives, hit the shooting range and go to Quantico to ride with guys doing the evasive driving course and watch the HRT guys go to work in a shoot house. I realize that I sound like Im way too fired up about this, but I got to do those things FOR A GRADE IN HIGH SCHOOL. You cant tell me that you would have chosen Classical Music Appreciation over that.

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Calmer than you are...

Slims

Ah, memories...

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

I'd be willing to bet the Mr. Universe you posted from your personal clown-punchin' collection has Ripley's Believe It or Not on the other end of the line with this high school / FBI field trip story. Did the feds have HRT back in 1919 when you were a wee lad?

...

You live in Stafford / Garrisonville in the '80s or what?

...

Man, my high school experience was so P.C. brokedick we didn't have a real shop class because they were afraid we would make zip guns. Then I joined the AH-ME and got all the shop class experience I needed poking UXOs hooked up to Barbie alarm clocks.

How the world has changed. I blame box cutters. And Randy Weaver's beard.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

I do FEEL like an old fuck. Im a 27 year old freshman in a hippie college surrounded by 18 year old liberal douchebags armed a sense of moral superiority, frappachinos, $500 cell phones and Che t-shirts. Their world views are shaped by watching Carson Daily on TRL and spending a week in London with daddy's AmEx. The worst part is that I havent had the opportunity to bang any of them. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

But you cant fault the neck beard for the impending fall of Rome. I blame the advent of vegetarian options at BBQ joints, The View and Ugg eskimo boots.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Slims

Hmm, do you think Bushmaster would offer me a consulting fee if I put their marketing department in touch with Lee Malvo?

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

The_Dunedan

Well, at least a few of them ended up in Prague too, and trust me, the Gypsies helped them with that little AmEx problem. These are the ones that make all the American/British long-haul expats want to hide in a hole and pull the world closed over themselves. Trust me, NOBODY makes Americans look as silly as a Left-Statist wandering around in a recently-Communist country.

Walt

Now youre just being obscene. Lee Malvo was a murdering, sociopathic, domestic terrorist. Horiuchi is a God-fearing patriot who diligently performed his duties so that you and I may sleep soundly at night. Im disgusted that you would even compare the two. Bad form, sir.
-----Added 30/11/2008 at 11 : 11 : 04-----
Apparently you've never seen an 18 year old Private after his first encounter with German beer and currywurst. It was enough to make me wish I was Canadian.

I feel like I just sold my soul by saying that....

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

I can see it now:

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

Now I see how it's easy for you to say and believe the crap that you've said on this thread.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Walt

Ah. If its contrary to what you say and believe, it must be wrong.

Please feel free to bestow upon me the lessons learned and knowledge gained from your worldly experiences and obvious intellectual superiority.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

dksuddeth

best reread what i wrote then. I specificallly said "Now I see how it's easy for you to say and believe the crap that you've said on this thread". I didn't say you were right or wrong, I gave my opinion that your view is crap.

As a 42 year old man who served 6 years as a US Marine and an Air Traffic Controller, along with years of studying gun laws and abuse of law enforcement power, I'm well qualified. You might get there if you can break out of your 'government does no wrong' bubble.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."