H-S Precision Rifles BOYCOTT - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Slims · 12-01-2008, 12:50 PM

dksuddeth:

Walter is a 27 year old freshman because he just left the Military. He also has a very dark, subtle sense of sarcasm. Take a few moments to re-read his posts (and remember that he is arguing with friends of his) with that in mind, you might find them more amusing and illuminating.

dksuddeth · 12-01-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

dksuddeth:

Walter is a 27 year old freshman because he just left the Military. He also has a very dark, subtle sense of sarcasm. Take a few moments to re-read his posts (and remember that he is arguing with friends of his) with that in mind, you might find them more amusing and illuminating.

I might. I'll have to get more sleep first. Not doubting what you've said, but damn i'm tired.

Walt · 12-01-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

As a 42 year old man who served 6 years as a US Marine and an Air Traffic Controller, along with years of studying gun laws and abuse of law enforcement power, I'm well qualified. You might get there if you can break out of your 'government does no wrong' bubble.

Sir, I am inclined to agree with your well supported argument. You are older than I. That alone should persuade me as to the infallibility of your statements.

But your age, coupled with the fact that you are able to read books without pictures, have spent years in the Marine Corps as well as having made an occupation of ensuring that planes dont run into stuff (in the sky) leaves me with no choice but to come to the conclusion that you are more than qualified to pass judgement about my opinions and dismiss them as "crap".

You have left me with no choice but to respectfully retract my previous statements and withdraw from the thread.

Well played, Sir.

Slims · 12-01-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

best reread what i wrote then. I specificallly said "Now I see how it's easy for you to say and believe the crap that you've said on this thread". I didn't say you were right or wrong, I gave my opinion that your view is crap.

As a 42 year old man who served 6 years as a US Marine and an Air Traffic Controller, along with years of studying gun laws and abuse of law enforcement power, I'm well qualified. You might get there if you can break out of your 'government does no wrong' bubble.

I wasn't going to argue this, but it is wearing on me.

If you disagreed with Walter (ignoring the sarcasm) you should simply explain where he is going wrong. Instead you address what he wrote as 'crap' while providing nothing of substance in return.

The simple truth is that while the FBI lost it's collective mind during this incident, there is a lot more to the story which puts randy, his family, and the events that transpired into a far darker color of gray than you portray in your post.

You suggest that the only thing Randy did illegal was to sell those shotguns and that he didn't deserve to be shot at (which is likely the truth, but still...). what about these incidents:

1: In 1985 Randy Weaver came up on the Secret Services radar for allegedly making threats against the President. Definately Illegal, though he was never charged.

2: After Randy Weaver failed to appear in court (I will concede that he did not deliberately miss his trial) he refused to surrender to US Marshals and the armed standoff began, which makes him guilty of resisting arrest, use of a firearm in commission of a felony, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, etc.

3: Since Randy Weaver and his family took up fighting positions whenever a vehicle would approach, his family was fully involved in the standoff and were guilty of aiding and abetting, at the very least.

4: Randy's son was not shot out of the blue, but rather after the standoff had already developed and his family had essentially been 'put on notice' that Randy was going to be arrested. He had reason to believe federal agents might be in the area, and should not have aggressed on them after they put down the dog that attacked them. And he certainly should not have shot at the officers, which really does make for a good self defense shooting.

5: Horiuchi didn't murder Vicki Weaver in cold blood. He is a moron and should be held criminally culpable for his idiocy, but I think it is pretty clear he was shooting at Kevin Harris, especially considering that the fated bullet first passed through Kevin Harris, then through a door before hitting Vicki, who was concealed behind the door.

Horiuchi's actions, as well as the FBI conduct of the incident were contemptible, but call a spade a spade and don't build Randy Weaver up to be some mythic hero, or tear Horiuchi down as someone who deliberately shot and killed a woman who was just 'holding a baby' rather than someone who was aiding Weavers efforts to evade lawful arrest. How did Randy not break the law by engaging in an armed standoff with the Police and FBI?

Second, you quote your life experience as somehow qualifying you for...something though I'm not really sure what it was as you never presented an argument other than saying Randy didn't do anything illegal (other than the shotgun thing). I abhor trotting out the life experience/credentials trump card, and I feel that doing so in a discussion is typically the precursor to an appeal to authority fallacy, as this seems to be.

But since you mentioned it, how exactly do your years of experience in an air traffic control tower qualify you to speak with authority on the Ruby Ridge incident? And in particular, how does it better qualify you than Walter, who has at least six years of law enforcement experience; the kind you get from actually being law enforcement?

I agree with you most of the time here on TFP. I also feel that Ruby Ridge should have resulted in criminal charges against several of the agents involved, Huriuchi in particular. However, the Weaver family was not by any means free of culpability and rather than discuss that with Walter when he decided to play devils advocate you went straight to calling his assertions crap and pulling out your life experience and laying it on the table.

dksuddeth · 12-01-2008, 03:21 PM

Walter, I sincerely apologize for my inability to detect any sarcasm in your posts. As I said previously, i'm extremely tired and while i'm not trying to excuse my derogatory statements, I hope you can accept that as an explanation of why I jumped in that direction.

Greg, Please read above and understand that I do regret making the statements I have in this thread.

I'm going to try to drive home without falling asleep at the wheel now. good night.

Slims · 12-01-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Walter, I sincerely apologize for my inability to detect any sarcasm in your posts. As I said previously, i'm extremely tired and while i'm not trying to excuse my derogatory statements, I hope you can accept that as an explanation of why I jumped in that direction.

Greg, Please read above and understand that I do regret making the statements I have in this thread.

I'm going to try to drive home without falling asleep at the wheel now. good night.

No worries, if everyone agreed all the time discussion boards wouldn't exist.

Good luck.

Greg

Walt · 12-01-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Walter, I sincerely apologize for my inability to detect any sarcasm in your posts. As I said previously, i'm extremely tired and while i'm not trying to excuse my derogatory statements, I hope you can accept that as an explanation of why I jumped in that direction.

Greg, Please read above and understand that I do regret making the statements I have in this thread.

I'm going to try to drive home without falling asleep at the wheel now. good night.

No worries. Apologies arent necessary on teh internets. To be honest, I was a bit over the top in playing devils advocate. Safe trip.

Plan9 · 12-01-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

No worries, if everyone agreed all the time discussion boards wouldn't exist.

Bullshit. With our egos? We could agree with each other for days.

The_Dunedan · 12-01-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Bullshit. With our egos? We could agree with each other for days.

Stop by the shop sometime, mate, it's 10x worse in real life with demonstration models hangin' on the walls ;-)

Willravel · 12-02-2008, 01:17 PM

What a bunch of morons. Using Lon Horiuchi to try and sell guns would be like getting Tonya Harding to sell ice skates. Or like Obama asking George Bush to sell another war.

Sorry, HS, you've screwed yourselves over during what could have been a great opportunity; Obama's going to be inaugurated in a little over a month meaning gun sales are going crazy, and you've just alienated most gun enthusiasts.

MSD · 12-02-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

What a bunch of morons. Using Lon Horiuchi to try and sell guns would be like getting Tonya Harding to sell ice skates. Or like Obama asking George Bush to sell another war.

Sorry, HS, you've screwed yourselves over during what could have been a great opportunity; Obama's going to be inaugurated in a little over a month meaning gun sales are going crazy, and you've just alienated most gun enthusiasts.

Even in the worst-case scenario (McCarthy's AWB passes,) nothing made by HS would be banned. It's all about the Evil Black Rifles and buying 15 1stripped lowers to build up your AR collection once the Muslim president passes his gun laws.

It's going to be awesome in 6 months when they realize that gun control isn't high on the list of things to get done by anyone important and that they have to sell that stuff at a loss to make credit card payments.

Plan9 · 12-02-2008, 02:03 PM

I like the paranoid white-guy en masse gun buy going on right now. It shows how the Bush Administration really has lowered IQs.

dksuddeth · 12-02-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

Even in the worst-case scenario (McCarthy's AWB passes,) nothing made by HS would be banned. It's all about the Evil Black Rifles and buying 15 1stripped lowers to build up your AR collection once the Muslim president passes his gun laws.

It's going to be awesome in 6 months when they realize that gun control isn't high on the list of things to get done by anyone important and that they have to sell that stuff at a loss to make credit card payments.

thats why i'm waiting for next xmas to buy mine.

Slims · 12-02-2008, 02:34 PM

...Obama did state on NPR that he supports a nationwide ban on concealed carry. While gun control isn't necessarily going to be a priority, the democrats will not have any excuse not to at least implement some 'reasonable' restrictions to prevent future atrocities with assault weapons, the 12'th round in a pistol magazine, .50 cal 'armor piercing sniper rifles,' etc.

And I agree with Willravel, that regardless of the actual circumstances behind the incident, Horiuchi has become pure kryptonite to the firearms community and using him was a very serious error in judgment.

To get back on topic, I stumbled across this while reading the latest news on this issue on another forum:

from the DOJ report on the investigation into Randy. It sortof makes those "Shotguns" sound a little more illegal than they are typically portrayed to be, and the fact that the conversation was tape recorded doesn't help Randy's story that the source set him up and cut off the barrels himself:

On October 24, 1989, Weaver met with Fadeley, who was wearing a miniature tape recorder and an electronic transmitter. At that time, Weaver gave Fadeley two shotguns, one with a 13 inch barrel, the other with a 12-3/4 inch barrel. Weaver told Fadeley that he had cut the shotgun barrels himself, "[s]itting under a shade tree with a vise and a hacksaw," and added that, "when I get my workshop set up I can do a better job."[FN42] Fadeley paid Weaver $300.00 for the weapons. When Weaver requested an additional $150.00 for the weapons, Fadeley told him that he would give him the additional money at the next purchase.[FN43] Fadeley then proceeded to tell Weaver that "[t]here is money to be had, and it looks like [you] did a real nice job". He then asked Weaver, "You figured four or five a week?" to which Weaver replied, "yeah, or more." Weaver repeated that there would be no paper trail on the weapons.[FN44]

No news yet from HS precision yet, their failure to do any form of damage control is absolutely mind-boggling. If nothing else they should, in the interest of keeping their company, either apologize for a bad lapse in judgment, or defend their decision.

I really want to know why a sniper who shot 2 shots from less than 200 yards, failing to kill either target, and accidentally killing a 'bystander' is in a position to endorse the quality of the equipment he used: Afterall, either he is an idiot who can't shoot, or his equipment was junk, either way it doesn't make for a very powerfull endorsement.

I've watched snipers make far more difficult shots than any of the ones Horiuchi screwed up. (edited because it was a bit over the top).

Plan9 · 12-02-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

...Obama did state on NPR that he supports a nationwide ban on concealed carry. While gun control isn't necessarily going to be a priority, the democrats will not have any excuse not to at least implement some 'reasonable' restrictions to prevent future atrocities with assault weapons, the 12'th round in a pistol magazine, .50 cal 'armor piercing sniper rifles,' etc.

You read that issue of American Riflemen too, huh?

Just like Brady II when it threatened all that was good and holy in the gun world? Meh, I'll believe it when it happens and when it happens it'll be too damn late anyway. Needless to say, politicians make their careers on telling a particular group what they wanna hear and then rotating their face around like suit-clad Janus to tell the opposite group everything is fine. Just because he's sporting a "radical new skin pigmentation" doesn't mean he's not the same old goblin underneath. I'm excited about the prospect of an educated man in the White House, but this isn't going to be Air Force One or an episode of some fancy TeeVee political action drama.

All that bullshit above really means this:

I'd venture to say gun control will be pushed way under the rug until the next cranky emo kid unloads on his school with a piece of shit gun nobody on the board would touch. Hi-Point and Intratec had their round of bad publicity. Who's next? Phoenix Arms and Rossi?

Gun control doesn't do a damn thing besides placate upper class white bread morons and I'd be willing to wager that Mr. Prez is smart enough with his top shelf education to realize that he needs to placate the XX million people in the states that own guns if he wants that second term.

...

Whew, I'm starting to feel Canadian here. Somebody hit me with a can of Budweiser, dump a sack of beef jerky on my head and give me a papercut with a Playboy.
-----Added 2/12/2008 at 07 : 22 : 50-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

I watched one of our snipers kill an insurgent who was peeking his head over the top of a rock from about 400 yards away. Canoed the guys head, first round, from an elevated position, at 10,000 ft. in the snow, across a windy valley, while being shot at. Instead of putting that in the magazine you get Horiuchi.

Are you whining? Get an agent.

You already get beards and cool black stripes over your eyes, what else do you want?

KirStang · 12-02-2008, 05:00 PM

As much as I try to be a gun Enthusiast, I didn't hear about H-S precision until this whole controversy boiled up. Perhaps this was part of their marketing ploy?

Slims · 12-02-2008, 05:39 PM

I dont' see how they would think deliberately trotting out Horiuchi's name in order to gin up controversy would work out well for them. The kind of controversy that is beneficial to a company is the kind that gets people talking about it, but doesn't really, really piss them off in a very big way. Most people who are in HS precisions market know about them already, or at least use their products. Making them angry will only stimulate people to cancel future orders.

Walt · 12-03-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

As much as I try to be a gun Enthusiast, I didn't hear about H-S precision until this whole controversy boiled up. Perhaps this was part of their marketing ploy?

HS has been a competitor in the precision rifle scene for a while now, though most of their stuff is fairly high-end considering its mass produced. Overkill for your average hunter and most civilians that do semi-serious long range shooting tend to start with their action of choice and build from there.

Most of HS's business is from federal agencies. For that reason, I can kind of see why they would use Horiuchi in their campaign. He's [in]famous and a lot of Fed shooters sympathize with him...which may sway local police departments that arent locked in to contracts with weapons manufacturers . A "If its good enough for the feds its good enough for us" line of thought.

Not exactly a well thought out advertising campaign as us gun nuts tend to have long memories. It probably would have been cheaper (considering the business they're bound to lose) to track down one of the worlds top shooters, sponsor him and hope he wins big at Camp Perry.

IMHO the bolt gun is dead. The new semi's are shooting just as well as the old bolt guns, have a superior magazine capacity and offer the shooter more options to modify the rifle to suit mission requirements.

Slims · 12-07-2008, 12:23 PM

"To Our Valued Customers:

H-S Precision has received comments relating to individual testimonials in our 2008 catalog. All of the testimonials focused on the quality, accuracy and customer service provided by H-S Precision.

The management of H-S Precision did not intend to offend anyone or create any type of controversy. We are revising our 2009 catalog and removing all product testimonials.

Sincerely,

The Management of H-S Precision"

Plan9 · 12-07-2008, 03:04 PM

How corporate of them.

Tully Mars · 12-07-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slims

"To Our Valued Customers:

H-S Precision has received comments relating to individual testimonials in our 2008 catalog. All of the testimonials focused on the quality, accuracy and customer service provided by H-S Precision.

The management of H-S Precision did not intend to offend anyone or create any type of controversy. We are revising our 2009 catalog and removing all product testimonials.

Sincerely,

The Management of H-S Precision"

How odd, I did not see that coming at all.

MSD · 12-07-2008, 07:01 PM

Just like politicians. They use a lot of words to say nothing at all.

The_Dunedan · 12-07-2008, 08:41 PM

Exactly.

"We're sorry we got caught using an endorsement from the man who is either the most incompetant "Sniper" in history (an option favored by a regular customer of ours who's had to work with ATF), or a shreiking sociopath as an endorsement. Please don't be mad at us. In order to avoid revealing such facts about ourselves in the future, we've removed -all- endorsements, not just those from infomcpetants and/or murderers, from our website. Now please tell Remington to reinstate their order!"

Plan9 · 12-08-2008, 04:22 AM

Hell, if they're only shooting women at children at ~300 meters... why not just get a Silurian-era Savage bolt gun in .300 ShoulderBreaker?

Walt · 12-08-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

Exactly.

"We're sorry we got caught using an endorsement from the man who is either the most incompetant "Sniper" in history (an option favored by a regular customer of ours who's had to work with ATF), or a shreiking sociopath as an endorsement.

I agree in principle, though Im hesitant to use the word "sociopath" with any implied negative connotations.

Plan9 · 12-09-2008, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak

I agree in principle, though Im hesitant to use the word "sociopath" with any implied negative connotations.

Ya know, that test is all about consistency.

#37. How do you feel about puppies?

#38. Do you like flowers?

12-01-2008, 12:50 PM	#41 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	dksuddeth: Walter is a 27 year old freshman because he just left the Military. He also has a very dark, subtle sense of sarcasm. Take a few moments to re-read his posts (and remember that he is arguing with friends of his) with that in mind, you might find them more amusing and illuminating. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

12-01-2008, 03:21 PM	#45 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	Walter, I sincerely apologize for my inability to detect any sarcasm in your posts. As I said previously, i'm extremely tired and while i'm not trying to excuse my derogatory statements, I hope you can accept that as an explanation of why I jumped in that direction. Greg, Please read above and understand that I do regret making the statements I have in this thread. I'm going to try to drive home without falling asleep at the wheel now. good night. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

12-02-2008, 02:03 PM	#52 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I like the paranoid white-guy en masse gun buy going on right now. It shows how the Bush Administration really has lowered IQs. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

12-02-2008, 02:34 PM	#54 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	...Obama did state on NPR that he supports a nationwide ban on concealed carry. While gun control isn't necessarily going to be a priority, the democrats will not have any excuse not to at least implement some 'reasonable' restrictions to prevent future atrocities with assault weapons, the 12'th round in a pistol magazine, .50 cal 'armor piercing sniper rifles,' etc. And I agree with Willravel, that regardless of the actual circumstances behind the incident, Horiuchi has become pure kryptonite to the firearms community and using him was a very serious error in judgment. To get back on topic, I stumbled across this while reading the latest news on this issue on another forum: from the DOJ report on the investigation into Randy. It sortof makes those "Shotguns" sound a little more illegal than they are typically portrayed to be, and the fact that the conversation was tape recorded doesn't help Randy's story that the source set him up and cut off the barrels himself: On October 24, 1989, Weaver met with Fadeley, who was wearing a miniature tape recorder and an electronic transmitter. At that time, Weaver gave Fadeley two shotguns, one with a 13 inch barrel, the other with a 12-3/4 inch barrel. Weaver told Fadeley that he had cut the shotgun barrels himself, "[s]itting under a shade tree with a vise and a hacksaw," and added that, "when I get my workshop set up I can do a better job."[FN42] Fadeley paid Weaver $300.00 for the weapons. When Weaver requested an additional $150.00 for the weapons, Fadeley told him that he would give him the additional money at the next purchase.[FN43] Fadeley then proceeded to tell Weaver that "[t]here is money to be had, and it looks like [you] did a real nice job". He then asked Weaver, "You figured four or five a week?" to which Weaver replied, "yeah, or more." Weaver repeated that there would be no paper trail on the weapons.[FN44] No news yet from HS precision yet, their failure to do any form of damage control is absolutely mind-boggling. If nothing else they should, in the interest of keeping their company, either apologize for a bad lapse in judgment, or defend their decision. I really want to know why a sniper who shot 2 shots from less than 200 yards, failing to kill either target, and accidentally killing a 'bystander' is in a position to endorse the quality of the equipment he used: Afterall, either he is an idiot who can't shoot, or his equipment was junk, either way it doesn't make for a very powerfull endorsement. I've watched snipers make far more difficult shots than any of the ones Horiuchi screwed up. (edited because it was a bit over the top). __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence Last edited by Slims; 12-02-2008 at 05:24 PM..

12-02-2008, 05:39 PM	#57 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I dont' see how they would think deliberately trotting out Horiuchi's name in order to gin up controversy would work out well for them. The kind of controversy that is beneficial to a company is the kind that gets people talking about it, but doesn't really, really piss them off in a very big way. Most people who are in HS precisions market know about them already, or at least use their products. Making them angry will only stimulate people to cancel future orders. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

12-02-2008, 01:17 PM	#50 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	What a bunch of morons. Using Lon Horiuchi to try and sell guns would be like getting Tonya Harding to sell ice skates. Or like Obama asking George Bush to sell another war. Sorry, HS, you've screwed yourselves over during what could have been a great opportunity; Obama's going to be inaugurated in a little over a month meaning gun sales are going crazy, and you've just alienated most gun enthusiasts.

12-02-2008, 05:00 PM	#56 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	As much as I try to be a gun Enthusiast, I didn't hear about H-S precision until this whole controversy boiled up. Perhaps this was part of their marketing ploy?

12-07-2008, 12:23 PM	#59 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	"To Our Valued Customers: H-S Precision has received comments relating to individual testimonials in our 2008 catalog. All of the testimonials focused on the quality, accuracy and customer service provided by H-S Precision. The management of H-S Precision did not intend to offend anyone or create any type of controversy. We are revising our 2009 catalog and removing all product testimonials. Sincerely, The Management of H-S Precision" __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

12-07-2008, 03:04 PM	#60 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	How corporate of them. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

12-07-2008, 07:01 PM	#62 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Just like politicians. They use a lot of words to say nothing at all.

12-07-2008, 08:41 PM	#63 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Exactly. "We're sorry we got caught using an endorsement from the man who is either the most incompetant "Sniper" in history (an option favored by a regular customer of ours who's had to work with ATF), or a shreiking sociopath as an endorsement. Please don't be mad at us. In order to avoid revealing such facts about ourselves in the future, we've removed -all- endorsements, not just those from infomcpetants and/or murderers, from our website. Now please tell Remington to reinstate their order!"

12-08-2008, 04:22 AM	#64 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hell, if they're only shooting women at children at ~300 meters... why not just get a Silurian-era Savage bolt gun in .300 ShoulderBreaker? __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."