Strange Famous

well, good for you internet tough guy.

__

And Muay Thai is a disgraceful activity. I saw it on some show called "human weapon" - the hooligans openly thrown knee's and elbows and aim to kill their opponents - the standard "KO" blow is a flying elbow to the top of the skull. To cause death is the highest honour for these thugs. It is no kind of sport - and has no place in any civilised society, it is of the stand standard as "snuff" movies.

MMA / Cage Fights at least have a ref who stops the fight when a fighter is knocked out and try to prevent fatalities. In Muay Thai the crowd cheer for a killing.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Not Right Now

Competitive Muay Thai does have refs.

Many combat sports began as a way to kill your enemy, in fact all did, that si why they are known as MARTIAL arts.

Not to mention, why is a knee or an elbow unacceptable, when a a punch or a kick is... or are you against kicks to? If you are, stick to boxing and stop insulting a sport that you know nothing about because you have unrealistic expectations toward fighting.

Since this debate started you went from hating MMA because it allows ground strikes citing that you believe in "fighting like a proper Englishman", to saying that you would probably jam your keys into someone's face in a fight, to saying that Muay thai fighters are thugs, because they use knees and elbows. I don't know sir, but I would rather take a knee to the face than have some bitch punch me using a key.

I respected your opinions this entire time but being a Muay Thai student myself I take that as a direct insult since you basically called me a thug. If you want thuggish, disgraceful actions look to those who settle thier differences with guns and kinves, not to those who train in any given discipline for competition and self-defense purposes. I've spent a year training in muay thai and 3 training in boxing and guess what, in that entire time, I've gotten into one street fight (mind you it was because my friend was being attacked by four people), very thug-like of me isn't me? Before having any discipline I was willing to fight all comers. If anything, experience makes you see that fighting because someone looks at you wrong is absurd. I can honestly say, from what I have seen you say in this thread, is that I hope you never run into any actual trouble, because apparently you don't even know how you would react.

__________________
I only came to dance.

Plan9

I like StrangeFamous. He sticks to his guns... er, fists.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Not Right Now

apparently, even when they have keys in them.

__________________
I only came to dance.

Prophecy

No clue about other MMA organizations, but the UFC gloves fit this rule.
While I believe USA and International Boxing sanctioning bodies allow boxing gloves from 8 oz to 12 oz.

As for rounds, the UFC currently follows these rules:

• All non-championship bouts are three rounds.
• All championship bouts are five rounds.
• Rounds are five minutes in duration.
• A one-minute rest period occurs between each round.

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

Not Right Now

Pads? A Ring? What disgraceful thugs!



A ref? These men must be in imminent danger. What is he explaining? Rules? Those damned Hooligans.

__________________
I only came to dance.

Glory's Sun

ya know.. I think you get dumber by the minute on this subject Strange. Either that or you're just trolling. How can you honestly support a sport such as boxing with as much scandal it has? Oh.. yeah..that Mike Tyson was a great guy

To sit there and talk such things about Muay Thai proves you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Of all the martial art's I've tried, and watched, there are none IMO that carry more honor. The fighters have their own routines that pay honor to the ring and ancestors and other things before each match. They respect their opponents and.. I have never.. never seen anyone in the sport aim to kill someone.

All martial arts are bound in violence. .. get that.. all of them. They weren't developed as a sport. They were developed to protect and defend. They later developed into a sport, but they still have a purpose in protection.

Now, you sit there and talk shit about these fighters who walk into a ring.. make hardly any money, get the shit beat of out them and then call them dishonorable.. and then.. you turn your face and say you don't know what you'd do in a street fight. You might even use a weapon. What the holy fuck?? It's dishonorable to participate in a sport with rules, refs, medical staff and respect for the fellow fighter, but not to use a weapon? You're fucking looney. All I know is that if you or anyone else ever punched me with a set of keys in your fists.. you better fucking kill me.

What is so much more honorable about boxing with is a violent sport than another sport that is violent?? They all have some sort of human violence involved and they all rules. Maybe you should use the internet to do some research on the subject and learn about the history of MMA and Martial Arts so you can actually give a good reason other than this dillusion of honor you keep speaking of.

Strange Famous

How would describe a blow with the POINT of the elbow aimed at the weakest part of the skull. other than an attempting killing strike?

You are right I am not an expert on Muay Thai... I do not know the % of fights which result in death or serious injury... all I can tell if from the amount I have seen of it, my judgment is that is an incredibly brutal activity - thought in a manner - boots, elbows, knee's, head butts - which in my own personal opinion is unmanly.

Fought mainly in area's of excruiating poverty, throwing young men and even children who have nothing to lose against each other into a savage fight where strikes with the elbow and knee are not only permitted, but actually encouraged and applauded.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Not Right Now

Modern Muay Thai aims not to kill. What you are thinking of is it's predecessor Muay Boran. Which was used mainly in battle. At first High level Muay Thai fighters would implement Muay Boran techniques after several years experience, but Muay Boran has since been made illegal in Thailand since it's aim is serious injury or death (this of course as because it was a millitary martial art), therefore the techniques are no longer used.

As for the Young men in poverty stricken areas being representitive of Muay Thai. They Represent the sport about as well as street brawlers represent boxing.

I was beginning to think the same thing.

__________________
I only came to dance.

high_jinx

i just wanted to quickly point out again the huge difference generally seen in someone who's been in either sport for the longterm.

i don't hear any of the "punchy" or brain damaged slurs when i hear randy couture or ken shamrock give an interview. mike tyson, evander holyfield, etc. on the other hand.... well, it's not pretty.

you talk about this "gentlemanly sport" or "sweet science", yet the main point of it is repeatedly striking someone in the head, which is the worst place to receive damage, especially over time.

mma on the other hand can end in an armbar or other wrestling move, and if someone's hit in the head its one clean hit, not a barrage in general.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Strange Famous

people can call me a troll, or call me ignorant, or whatever else they want.

I can tell YOU two things.

There will NEVER be a Muhammad Ali of "MMA", there will never be a fighter of MMA who breaks into mainstream awareness. However much popularity the sport gains amongst 20-30 males and HS kids and college students... there will never be a MMA fighter who is "da champ"

Whatever anyone says, I will always consider striking an opponent as down as cowardly, unsporting, and unmanly. You fight all out, and do anything that is allowed in the rules to get an advantage, but when a man is down.. you let him back up or let him stay down. To strike someone that is down, to attack a man who is already beaten... to me this is not something I ever want to see outside of a common brawl... I speak genuinely when I say it is disgusting to me.

I am sure MMA athletes are skilled and train hard, I am sure anything goes in a street fight... but what they do is not a sport that will ever enter popular culure. In a MMA fight, someone who trained all for years in this kind of activity would beat someone who trained as a boxer. In a boxing ring, a quality boxer would beat an MMA fighter every time.

The controversial question... what if Sugar Ray Robison had spent his whole life training in MMA, what if Royce Baysie has spent his whole life training as a boxer... you can look at it how you want, my opinion is that still hardly anyone would have heard of Royce Baysie, and still Sugar Ray would be one of the greatest of all time - and he would have done it in the ring under queensbury rules, not in a cage fight.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

Ok strange.. have it your way. You just keep ignoring the obvious. I mean.. it's not like MMA has already gone mainstream.. no.. not at all. It's not like a downed opponent is actually knocked out.. you know.. there's no point in grappling or anything.

I don't care what fucking ring the fighters step into. You can't honestly sit there and tell me that a one trick pony is going to beat a multiple trick dog every time just because of a different ring. Oh wait.. are you saying that a MMA fighter just using his boxing skills would get beat? Well that's a little understandable but I think it wouldn't be as dominant from the boxing standpoint that you think it would be. There are a ton of great strikers in MMA that have great angles and even harder punches.

If you don't like the way MMA works.. or you just don't understand it.. or you're just too fucking blind to see it for what it really is.. that's up to you.. and that's your right.. just as it's my right to think it's absolutely looney to say that boxing trumps MMA in any shape form or fashion.

high_jinx

i'm not a time traveller or anything.... but i can't be the only one who got a vibe on just how WRONG this prediction is. there will never be another muhammed ali, the person... but it's only a matter of time before a dominant champ arises in MMA and stays that way a long time. and when that happens, MMA will be more popular than boxing ever was. it already almost is.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Strange Famous

The public will never follow a sport which allows a fighter to attack a man that is already down. This is why there will never be a "champ" of MMA, however skillful or dominant any MMA fighter may become.

MMA is nowhere NEAR boxing today, and never will be.

Like I said, it was a following amonst 15-30 year old males... much the same as WWF does. (and I am not saying the are the same thing). This year, Pretty Boy Floyd vs Ricky Hatton will be a fight for the ages... whatever the biggest MMA fight is will certainly delight MMA fans, but no one else will know about it.

UFC was popular in the mid 90's and faded. The current trend of MMA will go the same way in my opinion.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

Where the hell do you live? Do you honestly believe what you type??

BOXING IS DEAD.

MMA kills any and every boxing match in ratings. It's not just 15-30 year old demographic either. UFC became so popular.. and huge that it even swallowed up Pride. Wait.. it was only popular in the '90's right? BULLSHIT. It wasn't nearly as huge back then as it is now. The current owners have it on a highly successful track with a huge profit. So say what you want about the current trend of MMA.. but it's a statement made in blindness.. or even jelousy because your beloved sport is dead.. dead.. dead.

Boxing died a long time ago because people got tired of all the BS that's associated with it. You have fake fighters out there just collecting a purse, you have a dumbass that gets put in jail constantly.. bad promoters etc. MMA will surely go through some of this, but it won't be for quite a while.

To say the public would never follow it is pretty fucking bold. Consider how much humans like their violence and you can surely see how you are wrong. Why will it become bigger than boxing? Because it's brutal but safer than boxing and it has more respect among fighters and the business side is run alot better.

Strange Famous

guccilvr,

go to bbc.co.uk

go to sports

is there an MMA link?
is there a boxing link?

__

In fact, no... I dont want you to accuse me of exploiting some kind of Atalantic bias.

Go to yahoo.com

Go to espn.com

__

Let me know on which site you see MMA getting a higher billing than boxing.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ubertuber

I actually know far more people here in L.A. who follow UFC and Pride than boxing fans. In fact, I don't think I know a single person my age who follows boxing anymore. I think UFC is far beyond "fringe sport" status.

I also don't understand your point about striking fallen opponents. If it's about being a "gentlemen", then there's no need to worry yourself. As has been noted many times in this thread by followers and fighters, many UFC fighters are MORE dangerous on their backs than on their feet. So taking the fight to the ground puts them at an advantage - they're far, far from defenseless.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Strange Famous

so ubertuber... will you go to bbc, to yahoo, to espn, or whatever other mainstream source you use... to show us how MMA is so much more popular than the sweet science?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ubertuber

Why would I do that? I didn't say that MMA is listed higher on websites than boxing. What I said was that among the group of people I know (wide range of ages), there are many fans of MMA and virtually none of boxing. ESPN, Yahoo, etc. don't really know anything about that.

At any rate, listings on websites have more to do with money and corporate control than with popularity or viability. So your thought experiment speaks more to the corporate soul of boxing than anything else. Personally, I don't see the purse sizes and the types of "gentlemen" they attract as being much of an endorsement for boxing.

**EDIT**

I got curious and went to ESPN. Boxing is listed 2nd to last on the title bar. If you click "more", you'll find MMA two links above cricket, which is obviously a fringe sport.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Strange Famous

so corporations promote an unpopular and dated sport that no one cares about rather than a "new, popular" sport?

wow.

Thats a good way for them to make profit

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

docbungle

Ahem.

Strange, this is for you.....

boxing vs mma tv ratings : http://www.mmanews.com/ufc/UFC-vs.-B...e-Popular.html

http://www.boxingscene.com/index.php?m=show&id=5329

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2007/08/u...omorrow_th.php

So, now what?

At the very least, you cannot claim...well...just about anything that you've claimed in this thread so far.

Fringe sport? More likely you are on the fringe. You are certainly ignorant of that which you speak. And even if you don't know that, most of us here certainly do.

__________________
Bad Luck City

Strange Famous

I guess we are all guilty of national bias at times... but can I point out that the articles and figures you are quoting are all about the USA only?

Boxing is a world sport. It is massive in Mexico (for example) where MMA is not.

I agree with one point in one article - that MMA has a limited demographic, a point I already made and you have backed up and reinforced.

I said that MMA was only popular amongst American males 15-30... the article makes the point that actually it is white American makes 15-30 that make up nearly all of the audience of MMA.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

docbungle

Strange,

Debating this with you is pointless, so I don't really know why I bother, but I am simply pointing out the flaws in your logic.

You state that the Hatton Mayweather fight will be one for the ages (and you may be right; I know I'll be watching it. I enjoy both mma and boxing, and watch both religiously), but the stats posted above show that, while you may prefer one over the other, mma is certainly a force to be reckoned with as far a popularity goes. It is already outdoing boxing in PPV buys, and HBO PPV is worldwide, so don't give me any of this national bias crap. You will never hear any nationalist speak coming from me.

So your claim that mma is nowhere near boxing today is just without merit. If you don't follow a sport, your opinions on it are just that: opinions based on nothing other than personal bias.

Insulting the sport of mma certainly doesn't make your opinions any more viable.

The numbers speak for themselves. Boxing is in a lot of trouble and has been for a while. The heavyweight division has been non-existent since Lennox Lewis retired, and most of the major fighters in the lighter divisions are used up or ready for retirement themselves. The absence of DeLa Hoya will be huge, as he accounted for the biggest ppv draws in the division's history.

There are a few rising "stars" with potential, such as Cotto and Hatton, but the promoters are killing the sport, and have been for a long time. They will continue to do so as long as the sport is unregulated. The promotors actually control the entire sport of boxing, which is why it is so corrupt, and you don't see this in any other sport. All other professional sports compete off of ACTUAL RANKINGS. That is the whole point of having a LEAGUE. You wonder when boxing will wake up to this fact.

The alphabet ranking organizations, more often than not, award fights based off of money, not actual rankings. There are so many uncompetitive championship fights nowadays, and that is why the popularity of the sport has plummeted. That, and all of the scandals, indictments of the rankings organization officials, bad judge decisions, bribes, and so on and so forth.

This is all widely documented and very easy to find on the web.

You say that mma will never be what boxing is. Well, I say that mma may never be as large as boxing WAS, but, then again, I say neither will boxing.

But time will tell.

__________________
Bad Luck City

high_jinx

sports sites are light on mma content because they don't get a piece of it at the moment. only spike tv has a deal with ufc, and it must be exclusive, otherwise espn and fox and even yahoo for that matter would have bought in to it by now. fox is carrying some fringe mma leagues but the real torch carryer at the moment is ufc and they have a stranglehold on marketing, so the only coverage you'll see outside ppv and spike are little hi lite blurbs on sportscenter... there's no money in that so they don't cover it.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

silent_jay

http://www.sportsnet.ca/

There you go Strange, a mainstream sports site with an mma link, and oddly enough, no boxing.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Telluride

Most people I know have heard of De La Hoya. But I don't consider him to be particularly relevant. He's lost three of his last five fights and hasn't defeated a truly elite-level opponant since he beat Yory Boy Campas...and that was four and a half years ago.

I think that De La Hoya still gets big fights for two reasons:

1) He's a good fighter who looks really good when compared to the rest of the current boxing field.

2) He's still hugely popular with Mexican-Americans, so his fights bring in lots of money.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

YaWhateva

A lot of UFC fighters come from the US, Canada, Brazil, Japan, Russia, Holland, England, just to name a few countries and guess what, many of these fighters are world or Olympic champions in their sport. Yes that's right, it's a sport.

Besides the other idiocies you have posted in this thread I would just like you to know that the UFC has had, in recent months, two giant events in the UK and the arenas were sold out. Also, UFC 80 in January is likely to be held in Newcastle, England.

Also, I hope you don't think that most all of Asia is in the US because MMA is huge there.

also, Michael Bisping, from Lancashire, England, is a huge UFC fighter. He even trains in an MMA Academy, called the Wolfslair Academy, right smack in your country! Wow!

You are beyond ridiculous and you live in a fantasy world.

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

Plan9

No reason to be an official jerk. Unless you like it or something.

StrangeFamous should go watch UFC when it comes to his island.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Bossnass

Another aside;

I'm a hockey fan in a hockey town. Last night, an "eternal rivals" game was played. Last night was also a big UFC night. My first sports bar of choice was full to capacity because they were showing UFC. My second pub of choice was also showing UFC and I couldn't even locate my friends for a while. We were eventually able to find a table that could see both the hockey game and the UFC matches. UFC is a real sport with a huge following in this neck of the woods. (Metro population 1,000,000+. I can't remember the last time I saw boxing. I used to work at pub and I am a frequent customer)

Strange Famous

If a WWF/WWE show like Wrestlemania was in England it would sell out too.

UFC and Pro Wrestling have the same fanbase... kind of. When people grow out of wrestling because it is "too fake" they watch UFC instead.

I'll tell you aain.. there will NEVER be a Muhammad Ali of UFC.

The World Heavyweight champion is the Emporer of Masculinity (although with the alphabet soup of titles at the moment the word "champion" is cheapened, there is still a linear championship with runs all the way back to John L Sullivan). The Champion UFC/MMA/Cage Fight fighter is simply the most violent individual from last week's round of brawls.

I do not say this lightly, the holder of the linear heavyweight championship of the world is one of the greatest men of his time. Randy Coutre or whoever else is just a version of Hulk Hogan who is not fighting to a script.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Bossnass

You must be right. Good luck with that.

ring

Uhhh..How do I dare bring this up?

More women than you know, strangefamous, are avid boxing fans,and in some cases very formidible opponents.

How are we basing the interest in this sport..ticket sales..etc

Just curious, been reading this thread and it brings up many good memories of fights I've seen over the years.

I am going to go whack some beer cans with my Samurai sword out in the backyard now for a spell....later.

I will leave you to your debate and stay out of the way.

YaWhateva

Because opinions are fact....

also, is that better, Crompsin?

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

Strange Famous

WWF has come to the UK, and has sold out arena's - fact not opinion.

Even articles that supporters of MMA have quoted have stated that the fanbase of MMA is young and male, the same fanbase as WWF - educated opinion.

Muhammad Ali is more well known than any MMA fighter is or ever will be - FACT

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

YaWhateva

this was what my quote was meant for, and no that isn't a fact. Making broad assumptions of the future will more than likely bite you in the ass at some point.

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

silent_jay

Strange Famous has no idea what he is talking about on this subject - FACT.
See I can do it too, put the word 'FACT' behind it and it must be true.

And Strange, what about the check your mainstream sports site for an MMA link? I found one, has an MMA link and no boxing. I'll even put up a screenshot for you jusat in case you don't want to click the link:

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

Silent Jay,

They also list CFL before NFL.

What more can we say?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

silent_jay

So? It's a Canadian site, probably a good reason to list CFL first. All this was about was a mainstream site with an MMA link and no boxing link, which really means nothing, but you put so much credibility in I figured I'd post the Sportsnet link.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Strange Famous

I could find a site that was dedicated to crown green bowls that didnt list boxing on it... what would that prove?

I am not debating that MMA has a fan base... it has a fan base of similar size to pro wrestling.

Boxing, the sweet science, is a sport that can step outside of its hardcore fanbase (that can step outside of the group of people who know who Oleg Maskaev is)

MMA is an activity that is limited to its fans and has no outside appeal.

If you were to come in here and argue that more people know who Randy Coutre is than Clinton Woods I might believe you.

But Randy Coutre against Ali, against Rocky, against Joe Louis... thats joke

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Telluride

That nonsense has already been covered. MMA had and has a number of dominant fighters with an aura of invincibility.

Emperor of Masculinity? Why not have all the boxing champs step into the UFC octagon with the UFC champs? We'll see who is more "masculine".

And the titles for the UFC's weight classes aren't exchanged on a weekly basis. More like 4 -6 months between title fights for each respective champion.

MMA fighters aren't versions of Hulk Hogan any more than boxers are. Well...you may actually be right. Unlike boxing, most MMA and professional wrestling matches are at least entertaining.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek