Baseball '07 - Page 8 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

kutulu · 10-08-2007, 11:53 AM

The only thing that should be drawn from the series that ended the year was that Webb beat them during their streak. They threw up B game lineups where all the guys who wouldn't be on the postseason roster got to play.

Melvin should have been playing to win both games. It would be ironic for them to lose to a team that they might have beaten if they had put up a better lineup against them.

djtestudo · 10-08-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Well the Rocks took 2 of 3 from AZ in their last series of the regular season. So that's a plus for them. On the other hand, the one loss that the Rockies have had was at the hands of the D'Backs. Should be a really good series, but I think the Rockies are just too hot to handle.

As for the Angles, Stoneman will make some noise about bringing a power hitter into the lineup. Whatever team they are trying to trade with will ask for the frikkin' moon and the stars to let go of the bat, and Stoneman won't go for it. It happens every off season, and every season right before the trade deadline, and it goes down. Sweeny's name always comes up, but the deal is never sealed.

They could have had Miguel Tejada twice: at the deadline last year and during the past offseason. But they wouldn't part with anything worth taking.

For the record...

Rodriguez: 4-15, 1 HR, 2 BB, 6 K, 6 LOB (.267 BA, .353 OBP, .802 OPS)

Jeter: 3-17, 4 K, 8 LOB (.176 BA, .176 OBP, .352 OPS)

Captain Clutch!

pan6467 · 10-08-2007, 09:17 PM

FUCK THE YANKEES BRING ON THE SOX..........

GOODBYE JOE

CONGRATULATIONS TO THE CLEVELAND INDIANS FOR A GREAT YEAR SO FAR AND HERE'S TO 8 MORE WINS THIS SEASON!!!!!!

Destrox · 10-09-2007, 06:27 AM

hell yeah, and i agree.

Fuck all the nay-sayers.

As a long time indian fan I so truely get sick and tired of all the bullshit I hear from the money clubs.

This entire MLB post season is all about skill and talent, not money. (Excluding Boston where they have both.)

Boston Vs Indians is going to be a KILLER match up.

Fuck the Yankees indeed, and to all ya'll who still think the Indians are not going anywhere prepare to be shocked like the Yankees were.

Go TRIBE

Glory's Sun · 10-09-2007, 06:31 AM

blah blah blah.

The Indians did a great job making it this far, but the run is over. Boston's lineup and arms are too much for Cleveland to handle.

Fuck the Yankees indeed. Is there anyone out there who still thinks A-Rod isn't a waste of money in the postseason?? He's not worth 28 million.

Mister Coaster · 10-09-2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

They could have had Miguel Tejada twice: at the deadline last year and during the past offseason. But they wouldn't part with anything worth taking.

That's right, Tejada was the other one. I forget who they were asking for, but it was something like one of their starting pitchers, a bullpen guy and a young prospect. Feel free to correct me, as I'm sure SOMEONE will. I remember it looking really one-sided because they know how desperate 'everyone says' the Halos are for a bat.

Oh, and since the bandwagon is rollong right along... Fuck the Yankees!

QuasiMondo · 10-09-2007, 10:33 AM

Dear Yankee fans,

Welcome to the Offseason. Make yourselves at home. The beer's in the fridge, the remote's on the coffee table, and remember to flush the toilet after you use it. Enjoy the rest of the playoffs and remember, you're not alone in this.

Sincerely,
Mets Fans

djtestudo · 10-09-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

That's right, Tejada was the other one. I forget who they were asking for, but it was something like one of their starting pitchers, a bullpen guy and a young prospect. Feel free to correct me, as I'm sure SOMEONE will. I remember it looking really one-sided because they know how desperate 'everyone says' the Halos are for a bat.

Oh, and since the bandwagon is rollong right along... Fuck the Yankees!

From our end, the only thing we heard in Baltimore was the Angels offering Ervin "I Get Homesick" Santana and Erik Aybar (who was at least only the second-best shortstop prospect in their system at the time, and might be lower now).

We definitely wanted more then that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

blah blah blah.

The Indians did a great job making it this far, but the run is over. Boston's lineup and arms are too much for Cleveland to handle.

Fuck the Yankees indeed. Is there anyone out there who still thinks A-Rod isn't a waste of money in the postseason?? He's not worth 28 million.

Check the stats I posted above. He didn't play as well as that much money should buy you, but he was nowhere near the awfulness put up by Number Two himself.

Hell, for his career he has an .842 OPS with seven home runs over 10 total series (39 games), so it isn't like he has played terribly (for the record, Jeter has a .846 OPS over 25 series and 123 games).

pan6467 · 10-09-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

blah blah blah.

Oh yeah, I'll blah blah you....

Quote:

The Indians did a great job making it this far, but the run is over. Boston's lineup and arms are too much for Cleveland to handle.

Well, if you want to talk hitting, the best hitting team in baseball was the NY Yankees and we see how well they did against the Indians.

I think it'll be a pitching series and I just don't see Boston being able to go as deep. If the Indians get into Boston's pen.... it's done the Tribe wins. If Boston gets into the Tribe's pen, the Tribe is solid there so they'll keep any blowouts from happening.

Prediction: no blowouts, very close low scoring games, Boston takes game 3 in CLE... Cleveland wins 4-1.

Quote:

Fuck the Yankees indeed. Is there anyone out there who still thinks A-Rod isn't a waste of money in the postseason?? He's not worth 28 million.

Yes, A-Rod is an overpaid waste of money. You get paid that kind of money you best be damned good in the clutch, esp. during post season. If, like in A-Rod's case you aren't.... then you really aren't helping the team win much.

BTW what were his stats with runners in scoring position with 2 outs and the Yanks losing by 3 or less? With 1 out? With no outs?

In other words, what did he do during the season in times of need as a clutch go to player?

And on a happier note, I heard a replay of some lady on a NY radio show saying as Torre was giving what may have been his last speech as a manager, the coaches were doing some serious crying in the office..... That's it baby doesn't get better than this.... THE INDIANS MADE THE YANKEES CRY.

Even if Boston sweeps.... my baseball year was made hearing that...

THE INDIANS MADE THE YANKEES CRY.

Glory's Sun · 10-10-2007, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan647

I think it'll be a pitching series and I just don't see Boston being able to go as deep. If the Indians get into Boston's pen.... it's done the Tribe wins. If Boston gets into the Tribe's pen, the Tribe is solid there so they'll keep any blowouts from happening.

Prediction: no blowouts, very close low scoring games, Boston takes game 3 in CLE... Cleveland wins 4-1.

So you're telling me that you honestly think that Cleveland's bullpen is better than Boston's?? Dude.. pass the blunt. Seriously. Boston's team ERA is 3.87 while Cleveland's is 4.07.

Manny is hitting .417 against the Indians, add that to the fact that Ortiz is hitting well and when Ellsbury gets in the game, the bases will be stolen. Pedroia will produce some good AB's.

Sure I don't think there will be any blowouts but after watching how hard Sabathia had to pitch for 5 innings against the skanks, I see Boston getting a couple off of him. Boston is just as patient at the plate if not more so than NY.

kutulu · 10-10-2007, 08:53 AM

In case you didn't know, the GMs for Cleveland, Colorado, and AZ all used to work together in the Cleveland organization. Josh Byrnes also worked as Assistant GM under Epstein. Anyways, here is a cool article that talks about them and the style of running their organizations:

http://ussmariner.com/2007/10/09/the-seeds-of-success/

Quote:

The four teams in the League Championship Series have been set - Cleveland vs Boston, Arizona vs Colorado. If every postseason tells a story, then so far, the story of 2007 is the dominance of the new school of baseball executives.

Theo Epstein is 33 years old. Josh Byrnes is 37 years old. Mark Shapiro is 39 years old. Dan O’Dowd is the old man in the room, coming in at 47 years old. All of them are running the team that gave them their first chance to be a general manager. None of them played an inning of major league baseball. And they all came from the same tree.

In 1998, John Hart was the General Manager of the Cleveland Indians, who were winning another division title in the middle of a mini-dynasty. His Assistant General Manger was a man named Dan O’Dowd, who had worked his way up through the ranks beginning in 1988. The Assistant Director of Scouting was Josh Byrnes. And the current Cleveland GM, Mark Shapiro, was the Director of Minor League Operations that year.

John Hart had three of the four GMs in the 2007 LCS working for him in the same front office that year. It gets better. When Dan O’Dowd was hired by the Colorado Rockies in 2000 to be their GM, he took Josh Byrnes with him, giving him an Assistant General Manager role. Byrnes stayed in that job for three years before taking an Asst. GM job with the Boston Red Sox, working for Theo Epstein - the GM of the other team alive in the 2007 LCS. After several years in Boston, the Arizona Diamondbacks handed him the reins of their organization.

Byrnes worked with Shapiro and O’Dowd, then for O’Dowd, and then for Epstein. These four organizations are all intertwined by the people who they have put in charge in the last decade. And they all have one singular goal in common - to gather as much information as possible and put it to use in the best possible ways in order to win baseball games. Cleveland, Arizona, Colorado, and Boston aren’t true “Moneyball” organizations - they’re Moneyball 2.0 clubs, the ones who have successfully integrated both scouting and statistical analysis into a cohesive organization and are leveraging every good piece of information they can find into a competitive advantage.

These are the organizations who won’t settle for time honored traditions. They won’t settle for doing things the way they’ve always been done. They question conventional wisdom and they look for empirical answers. They hire the smartest people they can find and let experience take a back seat to talent.

And they win baseball games.

This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going. The John Hart family tree has branched out even beyond the Billy Beane family tree - the Pirates just hired Neil Huntington from the Indians, and Shapiro’s right hand man, Chris Antonetti, can essentially pick whatever job he wants whenever he decides to run a franchise. With Andrew Friedman as something of a second cousin down in Tampa along with Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin as the crazy uncles over in San Diego and Milwaukee, this is no longer a cute theory about how the Oakland A’s are winning with a small payroll. This is the 21st century of baseball management.

If you’re rooting for an organization that isn’t adapting to the changing face of how baseball teams are run (and if you’re reading this blog, you probably are), expect 2007 to be the norm. The good organizations are going to win a lot of baseball games, and the people who rely on analysis that was handed down to them from 1970s will sit at home in October, wondering which free agent pitcher they can overpay to try to save their jobs.

Kadath · 10-10-2007, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

So you're telling me that you honestly think that Cleveland's bullpen is better than Boston's?? Dude.. pass the blunt. Seriously. Boston's team ERA is 3.87 while Cleveland's is 4.07.

Meaning, statistically, Cleveland is, on average going to give up 1 extra run every 5 nine inning games. Man, you are right, it is CRAZY to say they are on par.

Glory's Sun · 10-10-2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

Meaning, statistically, Cleveland is, on average going to give up 1 extra run every 5 nine inning games. Man, you are right, it is CRAZY to say they are on par.

didn't say they were on par.. said better

better is better no matter how you break it down.

Ilow · 10-10-2007, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

So you're telling me that you honestly think that Cleveland's bullpen is better than Boston's?? Dude.. pass the blunt. Seriously. Boston's team ERA is 3.87 while Cleveland's is 4.07.

Manny is hitting .417 against the Indians, add that to the fact that Ortiz is hitting well and when Ellsbury gets in the game, the bases will be stolen. Pedroia will produce some good AB's.

Sure I don't think there will be any blowouts but after watching how hard Sabathia had to pitch for 5 innings against the skanks, I see Boston getting a couple off of him. Boston is just as patient at the plate if not more so than NY.

I had a similar reaction to this comment. Assuming that both team's starters go deep into the games (which is reasonable) I would take Boston's late ining tandem of Okajima and Paplebon over Cleveland's any day. Borowski got 45 saves, but his ERA was two or three TIMES Papelbon's, and always appears to be a walk-off hit waiting to happen. Any Cleveland fan who says that this doesn't concern them a little is either lying or crazy, especially when they do not have homefield advantage.

kutulu · 10-10-2007, 11:39 AM

Actually, if we are talking about Cleveland RPs vs. Boston RPs, Cleveland's relievers have a 3.73 ERA and Boston's have a 3.10 ERA. That's over a half a run difference. If you adjust for park and league effects, the difference is greater.

Mister Coaster · 10-10-2007, 12:56 PM

Well there you have it, Boston's ERA is better than Cleveland's. Give them the pennant now! No need to play the games, right?

Now that I'm just a casual observer I'll just go ahead and laugh at the whole "our ERA is better than your ERA" banter. Quote all the numbers you want, they don't decide the future, they are just averages of what happened in the past. Every pitcher with a good ERA has had a crappy outing, and pitcher with a crappy ERA has had a good outing.

Glory's Sun · 10-10-2007, 01:03 PM

Silly Angels fans.. so bitter.

There's nothing wrong with quoting stats. Sure the need to play the games is still there, but the games being played are what creates the stats. When you're team is actually still playing.. you can quote stats in hope that they hold up through the rest of the year.

Mister Coaster · 10-10-2007, 01:58 PM

Dissappointed, yes. Bitter, no. Keep taking jabs at me all you want. Now let's compare WHIP stats, can we? That'll be a hoot!

Kadath · 10-11-2007, 04:23 AM

Yes, definitely. For example: Statistics were really borne out in the Cleveland-NY series. After all, NY had more RBIs than Cleveland in the regular season, and in the series...wait. Shit! Maybe regular season statistics AREN'T particularly meaningful? In fact, maybe statistics when it comes to a game played by 9 guys, any of whom can have an off night, aren't reliable in any way at any time? Yeah...that could be it.

Glory's Sun · 10-11-2007, 07:23 AM

Yeah.. stats don't mean shit. I mean..why would a manager like to have stats? They should just put whoever they feel like in the game no matter what the stats say.

Look, we all know that stats don't determine the outcome of the game necessarily. But we all know that stats have their place. If I'm a manager and I have a relief pitcher that has blanked a certain guy his whole career and it's late in the game.. those stats come in handy because it plays the percentages. So to say that stats don't mean shit is pure bollocks and we all know it.

djtestudo · 10-11-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

Yes, definitely. For example: Statistics were really borne out in the Cleveland-NY series. After all, NY had more RBIs than Cleveland in the regular season, and in the series...wait. Shit! Maybe regular season statistics AREN'T particularly meaningful? In fact, maybe statistics when it comes to a game played by 9 guys, any of whom can have an off night, aren't reliable in any way at any time? Yeah...that could be it.

Maybe the Yankees should have started Wilson Betimit, Miguel Cairo, Jose Molina, and Bronson Sardinha in game four. They probably would have been better options then Rodriguez, Jeter, Melky Cabrera (.188, .563 OPS), etc.

You never know when one of them might have a great game over the other losers I mentioned.

Mister Coaster · 10-11-2007, 05:15 PM

Of course stats are important, and yes they help a manager make an educated guess. But that's all it is, a guess. But you're preaching stats as if they alone already won it for Boston. If Beantown wins, feel free to gloat, as of now its 0-0.

Glory's Sun · 10-12-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Of course stats are important, and yes they help a manager make an educated guess. But that's all it is, a guess. But you're preaching stats as if they alone already won it for Boston. If Beantown wins, feel free to gloat, as of now its 0-0.

No.. I didn't say Boston already won. I have a feeling they will win.. they <i>SHOULD</i> win. The stats show they should. What's the difference in me putting how I feel about a series and Pan posting 900 size font letters about how he feels about the indians? I'm a Bo'Sox fan.. and I'm proud of that. I think they will win. If they lose then they lose and the Indians deserve credit. If they win.. then I will gloat. Maybe I'll even post it in big red letters just in case someone missed it

That being said, I think it's safe to say that the Rockies have Webb's number. The man just couldn't get ahead in the count. Tonight's matchup between Jimenez and Davis should be an interesting one to say the least.

pan6467 · 10-12-2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

No.. I didn't say Boston already won. I have a feeling they will win.. they <i>SHOULD</i> win. The stats show they should. What's the difference in me putting how I feel about a series and Pan posting 900 size font letters about how he feels about the indians? I'm a Bo'Sox fan.. and I'm proud of that. I think they will win. If they lose then they lose and the Indians deserve credit. If they win.. then I will gloat. Maybe I'll even post it in big red letters just in case someone missed it

That being said, I think it's safe to say that the Rockies have Webb's number. The man just couldn't get ahead in the count. Tonight's matchup between Jimenez and Davis should be an interesting one to say the least.

Hey man, use whatever size font you like, as long as it is in fun and not hurting anyone, who cares? Be pretty boring (to me at least) if all we did was throw stats and argue about who is the better player. (Course, it's always nice and never an excuse needed to say... FUCK THE YANKEES).

Gloat away if you're Bosox win man, that's part of sports. And if I don't see it in big red letters... then I may miss it...

Now, to get serious. The one thing that keeps playing in my head and giving me nasty thoughts of the game.... I see both teams just smashing it tonight, neither starter lasting 3 innings and whom ever wins tonight winning the series. If this were to happen I see both pens being used extensively, and the winner tonight pretty much winning the series.... this game will be close but the score will be more like 10-8 than the 3-2 they are calling for.

I Know it just will not happen and that tonight will be a great pitcher's duel.

Glory's Sun · 10-12-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Hey man, use whatever size font you like, as long as it is in fun and not hurting anyone, who cares? Be pretty boring (to me at least) if all we did was throw stats and argue about who is the better player. (Course, it's always nice and never an excuse needed to say... FUCK THE YANKEES).

Gloat away if you're Bosox win man, that's part of sports. And if I don't see it in big red letters... then I may miss it...

Now, to get serious. The one thing that keeps playing in my head and giving me nasty thoughts of the game.... I see both teams just smashing it tonight, neither starter lasting 3 innings and whom ever wins tonight winning the series. If this were to happen I see both pens being used extensively, and the winner tonight pretty much winning the series.... this game will be close but the score will be more like 10-8 than the 3-2 they are calling for.

I Know it just will not happen and that tonight will be a great pitcher's duel.

I dunno, I've been wondering if both pitchers can match their previous start. It will be alot more difficult for Beckett to match his performance than Sabathia to match his previous start. Given the fact that Boston is only 2 for 7 in their last ALCS Game 1's, and no pitcher with the most wins has ever won a Game 1 in the ALCS, history is definately on the side of Cleveland..well until you throw the Colavito curse into the picture

I see Manny doing some damage, and with Kielty having a decent percentage against Sabathia, that only helps Ortiz and Manny. The key for Boston is if Pedroia and Crisp and Varitek can do anything. Pedroia being the main key.

I think it's going to be a good series all the way around. My only worry is Matsusaka.. and of course Wakefield, but Wake has generally thrown well against Cleveland.

I think Cleveland's key to winning is basically staying out of the pen. They will need Byrd to pitch another game of his life and Carmona needs to show up. Now Carmona is awesome, but can he pitch in Fenway. (I have nfi as I haven't looked at stats or anything when it comes to that) Also, Sizemore is going to have to do some base stealing in order to keep the pitchers honest. I'm also very interested to see how Trot does against his former team..should be interesting.

Destrox · 10-12-2007, 02:29 PM

Good luck fellas, game time in 30 min!

This is going to be fucking great! Wooo!

Sports rock.

dylanmarsh · 10-12-2007, 05:02 PM

Poor, poor Pan. Getting suckered in, once again, and here we are 8-1 in the bottom of the 5th.

CC's kung fu is weak!

kutulu · 10-12-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

That being said, I think it's safe to say that the Rockies have Webb's number. The man just couldn't get ahead in the count. Tonight's matchup between Jimenez and Davis should be an interesting one to say the least.

They do but last night was strange. Only one of the hits was a solid hit. Bloopers and rollers that stayed fair. Whatever though, the fact that they only scored one run made the pitching performance irrelevant.

A bad showing by my fellow AZ fans, throwing shit on the field but that was a bullshit call if I've ever seen one. If I may, I'll plagarize something a friend of mine wrote somewhere else:

Quote:

The rule cited is not the rule that applies. The cited rule applies to batted balls. It would apply to the case where a runner intentionally touched a rgoundball. The ball in question was no longer a batted bal since it had been caught and thrown so this rule is not applicable.

The rule is: "(d) Any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;"

The ball should be dead and, in my view Snyder should have been entitled to third since that is where he was when the play was made. I guess you could argue he wasn't there so he has to go back, but the umps are so inconsistent with this that I don't know the rule any more.

In any event, this rule is virutually never enforced. It is not the literal interpreation of the rule, but the capriciousnss in the neforcement that is the problem. How many times do you think the ump enforced the rule this year? How many times do you think he stood at 2b and let a runner take out a player who was 10 feet off the base? Yet now in a big moment of a big game he trots out this rule.

I pooh poohed the idea of the umps being on the take (NBA I have always questioned), but this type of call is one that starts to raise questions for me. The NBA refs were ripe for corruption because they are so bad that you can't tell whether they are incompetent or on the take.

The same with arbitrary calls like this. You have a rule that the ump can hide behind. He just uses at judicious times. I don't think this guy was on the take, but it is this type of call that really rankles me.

McClellend should not have been behind the plate. He gave the Rocks their playoff spot with his phantom tag of home call. That he delayed so long that it was questionable for that reason alone. He used to be a good ump, but it looks like he has gotten so full of himself that he calls whatever he likes when he likes. He takes so long doing that it lessens my enjoyment of the game. To have him working behind the plate in a big game is a joke.

I agree. It may have been a correct call according to the rules but it's crap because it is a rule that is almost never enforced. It wasn't as if Upton was out of the basepaths either. He was in contact with the bag the whole time.

A similar situation would be a random enforcement of the rule that states a batter must attempt to get out of the way from the ball before it hits him. Say it was a tie game in the bottom of the 9th. Bases loaded 0-2 count. Batter is HBP but didn't try to move out of the way. Ump calls it a ball instead of awarding first base and ultimately deciding the game. By the book it is the right call but the rule is never enforced. Therefore it is bullshit.

MLB has a few issues like this they need to address ASAP. Another similar rule is the 'phantom double play tag'. I can't remember who AZ was playing but one of our hitters hit into what looked like a 4-6-3. There was one out at the time. The ump said that our opponent didn't tag 2nd, therefore the runner on second was safe. Correct call but bullshit.

pan6467 · 10-12-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

Poor, poor Pan. Getting suckered in, once again, and here we are 8-1 in the bottom of the 5th.

CC's kung fu is weak!

Well, he said he didn't attack them and couldn't get control of his game. I know CC is damned good and learns from his mistakes but he is still CC and lets his emotions play a part of his game.

John Farrell leaving Cleveland as director of player development, knows all the players and their weaknesses. He knows (most of baseball knows) you hit CC early he loses control fast and goes downhill in a hurry. Farrell also, knows most of the players as he watched them develop so he knows all their weaknesses better than any non Indian in baseball. But, he also knows they learn fast.

Anyone thinking the Indians were going to take 2 in Boston was smoking something. IF (and that is a HUGE IF) the Tribe can take game 2, I'm very comfortable with the rest of the series. If Boston takes the 2-0 advantage into Cleveland, I don't think the Tribe can recover, maybe for 1 game so it won't be a sweep.... but I doubt that even.

Game 2 has the utmost importance, the Tribe wins it.... I see them taking at least 2 of 3 in Cle., going into Fenway 3-2 and taking the series.

Either way, I am extremely proud of this team and unlike the Tigers or the Chisox I see them hanging in and being a playoff team for the next few years.

CC may have to go though. They need a more stable pitcher. I'd love to see a CC for Webb, Oswalt or possibly a Harang trade. I think any of those 3 would sign long term for less than CC and in the long term fare better.

If it goes to Game 5 and CC pitches another clunker.... Maybe I'm a pessimist but I don't see him ever recovering to be the #1 man in Cle again. His confidence will be shot and I fear he'd be a pariah in Cle. Especially, if Fausto, Byrd and Westbrook win out their games or 2 of them win and at least get it to a 2-2 deadlock.

I've seen too many "great" young pitchers get to the playoffs and get rocked and come out never the same. I fear CC will be one.

I hope I am wrong and it is just the CLE sports fan mentality of "the worst will happen"....... we shall see.

BTW Beckett pitched a Hell of a game from what little I saw at work. He earned my respect tonight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

A similar situation would be a random enforcement of the rule that states a batter must attempt to get out of the way from the ball before it hits him. Say it was a tie game in the bottom of the 9th. Bases loaded 0-2 count. Batter is HBP but didn't try to move out of the way. Ump calls it a ball instead of awarding first base and ultimately deciding the game. By the book it is the right call but the rule is never enforced. Therefore it is bullshit.

I quote this part because I remember a similar incident in my youth.

I was a HUGE Pete Rose fan (even dropped the REDS for the Phils for a period of time).... anyway, it was an all star game or a post season... Thinking all star..... and Rose is up to bat, inside pitch and he leans into it so he gets hit on the thigh and gets on first base. As soon as it hits him the camera zoomed in and you see him smiling from the time he flips his bat away to the time he gets on base. Cheap? yes.... but when you are in pro sports you should be willing to do anything that helps your team win... and he did just that. I'm pretty sure that HBP was a deciding factor in the game, just can't remember how.... maybe bases were loaded or the next hitter drove him in.... maybe someone here remembers that game better than I do.

kutulu · 10-13-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

CC may have to go though. They need a more stable pitcher. I'd love to see a CC for Webb, Oswalt or possibly a Harang trade. I think any of those 3 would sign long term for less than CC and in the long term fare better.

First of all, there is no way AZ would trade Webb. Second of all, Webb is by far the superior pitcher. If you adjust for league and park, Webb has the 8th best ERA (actually the stat is ERA+) of all time (although he hasn't had to go through declining years yet). Sabathia shows up a 184th. Webb is every bit as good as Santana, he just has the misfortune of playing for a NL West Team that isn't LA or SF, in other words nobody has ever given a shit about the DBacks and until he won his CYA nobody had even heard of him. Webb is absolutely worth $20M/yr.

Oswalt is just barely behind Webb. However the Astros signed him through 2011 with an option for 2012. It may bite them in the ass though because he's kinda damaged goods.

Harang gets attention because he's the best pitcher for a shitty Reds club. On a true contender he's a #2 starter. The Indians are much better off with CC.

Quote:

I was a HUGE Pete Rose fan (even dropped the REDS for the Phils for a period of time).... anyway, it was an all star game or a post season... Thinking all star..... and Rose is up to bat, inside pitch and he leans into it so he gets hit on the thigh and gets on first base. As soon as it hits him the camera zoomed in and you see him smiling from the time he flips his bat away to the time he gets on base. Cheap? yes.... but when you are in pro sports you should be willing to do anything that helps your team win... and he did just that. I'm pretty sure that HBP was a deciding factor in the game, just can't remember how.... maybe bases were loaded or the next hitter drove him in.... maybe someone here remembers that game better than I do.

I mostly agree. Rose gets the base because that's how its done. However, the correct call is the call it a ball and continue the at bat. Don't you think the crowd would go apeshit?

pan6467 · 10-13-2007, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

First of all, there is no way AZ would trade Webb. Second of all, Webb is by far the superior pitcher. If you adjust for league and park, Webb has the 8th best ERA (actually the stat is ERA+) of all time (although he hasn't had to go through declining years yet). Sabathia shows up a 184th. Webb is every bit as good as Santana, he just has the misfortune of playing for a NL West Team that isn't LA or SF, in other words nobody has ever given a shit about the DBacks and until he won his CYA nobody had even heard of him. Webb is absolutely worth $20M/yr.

I wouldn't say Webb is far superior to Sabathia. I'd say given the fact that Sabathia has played on some truly bad defensive teams and the fact that he's an AL pitcher, it is a fair comparison. In all honesty, I'm not sure Webb could compete full time in the AL. There is a different style of pitching in the leagues. Both could still flourish in a league change or both could fail miserably. I think CC would be every bit as good as Webb if he were a strictly NL pitcher.

As for Webb being as good as Santana, I don't see it. I love Webb can't stand Santana because I think he's over rated pitching in Minnesota , a pitcher's park.... but he is as far as strikeout power pitchers go, the best today.

Quote:

Oswalt is just barely behind Webb. However the Astros signed him through 2011 with an option for 2012. It may bite them in the ass though because he's kinda damaged goods.

Oswalt if he can get some meat on his bones and not be such an injury risk, could be the best NL pitcher in this generation, IMHO. But again, there's a difference between styles in the leagues and his style I'm not sure would fit in the AL.

Quote:

Harang gets attention because he's the best pitcher for a shitty Reds club. On a true contender he's a #2 starter. The Indians are much better off with CC.

Harang has a great arm, out of the 3 mentioned he would be my most likely to succeed in the AL. He doesn't get great run support or defense behind him and feels he has to win it. That causes him to make mistakes. You put him on a strong AL team, I think he is as good as anyone (short of a healthy, happy Santana, who's just a freak but is owned by the Tribe).

Quote:

I mostly agree. Rose gets the base because that's how its done. However, the correct call is the call it a ball and continue the at bat. Don't you think the crowd would go apeshit?

Yes, it's cheap (but look at the player)... And yes, had it been played by the rules and just called a ball the crowd probably would have gone apeshit.

I think the issue is that MLB leaves a lot of judgment calls up to the umps. Which in turn keeps a human element in the game. However, in this day and age of ratings, selling merchandise, cheating, officials gambling, etc etc... it is easy for those judgment "gimmes" such as the example above to be easily turned into a "by the rules" so that it takes away the normal breaks and can destroy momentum.

I was always taught in baseball to slide into second doing your best to break up a double play. You didn't want to hurt the guy but you wanted to take that precious split second away. I was also taught to prepare for it and to release asap. Now, if you solely move into the guy just to break it up then it is interference but it's a judgment call. And again, follow the ump, if he normally never calls it but all of a sudden does, you have to ask why. If he always calls it, then it should be no surprise when he does. Look for the consistency of an umps calls.

Hell, I've seen players from the pros to little league run in the line of the throw so that the fielder had to move around or hit the runner. According to the rules as I always knew them, that is legal, because the basepaths belong to the runners. However, I have seen interference called because the runner impeded the throw.

I like the fact the umps have the luxury of judgment calls, keeps the human factor in the game. But if I'm MLB, I'm watching and making sure the umps call on a consistent basis the same calls.

The one thing that pisses me off and makes me wonder about an umps bias is the strike zone more than anything. I have seen games where umps change strike zones. That is the fastest way to control the outcome of a game. If you let one team have the corners but don't let the other..... you can effectively make sure the team that doesn't have the corners has to work that much harder to win... and the team that gets the corners you give a huge amount of momentum to. Or change the strike zone midway through the game for one team, you can take away that momentum fast.

IE Give team A starter the corners and not team B, team A's pitcher is going to nibble the corners all day... team B's pitcher will have to work harder all day, tiring faster and pretty much hanging pitches over the plate.

Now you let team A's starter have the corners for the first 3 innings and he's pitching great but team B is the one you want to win.... inning 4 you change the zone take away the corners and all of a sudden team A's pitcher who was pitching well and hitting the corners is walking people, losing control, and tiring real fast trying to "refind" the strike zone. Team B meanwhile tees off gets the momentum as team A loses it and the game goes to team B.

Not that any of that would ever, ever happen.

pan6467 · 10-13-2007, 10:02 PM

It's tied heading into CLE.

BTW.... who said he saw the Tribe bullpen doing extremely well and the Bosox's falling apart?

Both have fallen apart though, this maybe a very close series and far more exciting than the WS this year.

No matter what happens, I am highly impressed with the Indians.

Kadath · 10-14-2007, 06:01 AM

I'm sure it's been said before, but starting the games so late is really hurting the East Coast viewers. Even on a Saturday, who is going to stay up to watch an 11 inning game that didn't even start until 8:30? I'm glad the Tribe won and all, but I would have been happier if I had any chance to watch it.

goddfather40 · 10-14-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

I'm sure it's been said before, but starting the games so late is really hurting the East Coast viewers. Even on a Saturday, who is going to stay up to watch an 11 inning game that didn't even start until 8:30? I'm glad the Tribe won and all, but I would have been happier if I had any chance to watch it.

I agree that the games should start earlier on Saturdays at least. But during the week, us on the west coast are usually not home from work even when the games start at 8:30 Eastern. We are usually home by the 3rd or 4th inning, so it's not that bad. The way the game times are setup during the week is the best compromise, and, again, weekend games should probably start around 7:30 eastern and it would be no problem.

Cross-Over · 10-15-2007, 02:37 PM

The Rockies pitching has shocked me. I'm no baseball expert, but it seems like you can mask mediocre hitting (which the Rockies don't have) with hot streaks and "small ball". However, you can't really disguise average pitching, especially down the stretch during playoff games and games with playoff implications.

The Sox-Indians series has been enjoyable to watch. Despite the Indians showing composure during tough situations during the Yankees series, I felt that the game was over after Ramirez and Lowell went back to back in game 2. Not having a personal interest in either team, it is refreshing to watch two top teams play quality baseball. Unfortunately, quality baseball includes quality at bats, resulting in some long games.

kutulu · 10-15-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cross-Over

The Rockies pitching has shocked me.

It's only shocking people because nobody watches NL West Games. The pitching in the whole division was awesome this year. Every team had a pitching staff that was well above league average.

Completely unrelated:

Dusty Baker got the manager's job for the Reds. Why? Who the hell knows. Maybe the Reds' front office got tired of Adam Dunn clogging all the bases with his walks.

Those poor Reds pitchers. How long till Dusty ruins Harang's arm?

Kadath · 10-15-2007, 06:43 PM

I'm surprised at Westbrook, he was really solid tonight. Also, it's always nice when a senior citizen can be a hero. Go Kenny!

Destrox · 10-15-2007, 07:44 PM

I expected a solid 5 innings out of Jake, but wow! 6+ innings was beyond what I could have asked for, bravo!

What a exciting game, and nice change from a 5.5 hour game... those were getting old.

pan6467 · 10-15-2007, 09:49 PM

Listening to WTAM on the way home, I couldn't help but think the god damned sports talk host and call-in fans were jinxing us.

They talked about the win (GREAT UNEXPECTED PITCHING from Jake at the Jake)..... but the conversations would go to who was hated more Manny or Jimmy and all I kept thinking was shut the fuck up with that bullshit... Manny hears it, he'll truly start teeing off on us. (BTW I agree with the host, Manny is Manny and he left because his agent sucked every penny he could out as seen by his documentary. His agent Jeff Moorad worked for Jeff Moorad's best interests not Manny's..... Jimmy worked hard to show he was a Clevelander and he stabbed us in the back "I am not leaving Cleveland, they will have to tear the jersey off my back..... oh ummmm Philly offered an extra guaranteed year for my bad back and more money.... Fuck you Cleveland.")

In the long run though had we signed either we wouldn't be where we are now.

Also in the shut the fuck up category..... Fox8 news people were saying how soon do we get Major League umps, these umps can't call balls and strikes (I agree, but they have been the same for both sides equally.... that can change), ummmm don't ya think the umps watch TV and may have heard that, so they will be extremely conservative with us tomorrow and for the rest of the series by making sure every pitch and play that is close goes in Boston's favor?

Wow we have some idiotic news people here. They talk about how the national bias is but come on talking like that isn't going to exactly help us.

Overall...... great series and much more interesting than that AZ-Colo. series.... unless your a Rox fan.

As for the Rox pitching being all that, somewhat laughable...... I find any staff with Jorge Julio, Josh Fogg, Elmer Dessens, Jeremy Affeldt and Matt Herges a prime candidate to be swept by the AL team they play.

However, The Rox and the Tribe BOTH built teams the right way, from good drafts, some major key trades, no overpaid under performing superstar.... so I think that will make the best series scenario, especially if you love pitcher's duels and true managing.... IF it's the Rox and the Sox... Boston tees off and it's over in 4. (I say begrudgingly as I hate the Sox as much if not more than the Yankees... after all the Sox were the team that played the game with Moorad.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Completely unrelated:

Dusty Baker got the manager's job for the Reds. Why? Who the hell knows. Maybe the Reds' front office got tired of Adam Dunn clogging all the bases with his walks.

Those poor Reds pitchers. How long till Dusty ruins Harang's arm?

I thought the same thing when I heard Dusty Baker's name. I truly was hoping the rumors were true, Jocketty as GM/President/CEO whatever and Larussa coming in to manage.

Cincy hasn't had a great manager or even a decent one since Pinella. They have had talent between then and now but very poor managing and ownership. I hoped when Bob Castellini bought it, he'd work hard to improve things, since Lindner didn't really care he had just bought the team from Marge to keep it in Cincy.

But I can see, things aren't going to change. Poor decisions, followed by no spending and just letting the team continue it's slide.

Pete Mackanin had done a great job after taking over for that total loser Jerry Narron. I think Pete deserved at least a chance to see what he could do in a full season. After all the Reds ONLY above .500 run for at least 1/2 a season (in what 5 years) was under his reign as manager. You look at what Narron had their record at and compare with what Mackanin did and wonder if maybe just maybe had he had the whole season, the Reds may have made a true run.

Aw well..... there is always the Tribe.

Kadath · 10-16-2007, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

However, The Rox and the Tribe BOTH built teams the right way, from good drafts, some major key trades, no overpaid under performing superstar....

What? JD Drew? Matsuzaka? Boston bought their team, it's mostly free agents. Cleveland built their squad.

10-08-2007, 09:17 PM	#283 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	FUCK THE YANKEES BRING ON THE SOX.......... GOODBYE JOE CONGRATULATIONS TO THE CLEVELAND INDIANS FOR A GREAT YEAR SO FAR AND HERE'S TO 8 MORE WINS THIS SEASON!!!!!! __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 10-08-2007 at 10:18 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

10-09-2007, 06:27 AM	#284 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	hell yeah, and i agree. Fuck all the nay-sayers. As a long time indian fan I so truely get sick and tired of all the bullshit I hear from the money clubs. This entire MLB post season is all about skill and talent, not money. (Excluding Boston where they have both.) Boston Vs Indians is going to be a KILLER match up. Fuck the Yankees indeed, and to all ya'll who still think the Indians are not going anywhere prepare to be shocked like the Yankees were. Go TRIBE __________________ You bore me.... next.

10-09-2007, 10:33 AM	#287 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	Dear Yankee fans, Welcome to the Offseason. Make yourselves at home. The beer's in the fridge, the remote's on the coffee table, and remember to flush the toilet after you use it. Enjoy the rest of the playoffs and remember, you're not alone in this. Sincerely, Mets Fans __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

10-10-2007, 12:56 PM	#296 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Well there you have it, Boston's ERA is better than Cleveland's. Give them the pennant now! No need to play the games, right? Now that I'm just a casual observer I'll just go ahead and laugh at the whole "our ERA is better than your ERA" banter. Quote all the numbers you want, they don't decide the future, they are just averages of what happened in the past. Every pitcher with a good ERA has had a crappy outing, and pitcher with a crappy ERA has had a good outing. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

10-10-2007, 01:58 PM	#298 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Dissappointed, yes. Bitter, no. Keep taking jabs at me all you want. Now let's compare WHIP stats, can we? That'll be a hoot! __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

10-08-2007, 11:53 AM	#281 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	The only thing that should be drawn from the series that ended the year was that Webb beat them during their streak. They threw up B game lineups where all the guys who wouldn't be on the postseason roster got to play. Melvin should have been playing to win both games. It would be ironic for them to lose to a team that they might have beaten if they had put up a better lineup against them.

10-09-2007, 06:31 AM	#285 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	blah blah blah. The Indians did a great job making it this far, but the run is over. Boston's lineup and arms are too much for Cleveland to handle. Fuck the Yankees indeed. Is there anyone out there who still thinks A-Rod isn't a waste of money in the postseason?? He's not worth 28 million.

10-10-2007, 11:39 AM	#295 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Actually, if we are talking about Cleveland RPs vs. Boston RPs, Cleveland's relievers have a 3.73 ERA and Boston's have a 3.10 ERA. That's over a half a run difference. If you adjust for park and league effects, the difference is greater.

10-10-2007, 01:03 PM	#297 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Silly Angels fans.. so bitter. There's nothing wrong with quoting stats. Sure the need to play the games is still there, but the games being played are what creates the stats. When you're team is actually still playing.. you can quote stats in hope that they hold up through the rest of the year.

10-11-2007, 04:23 AM	#299 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Yes, definitely. For example: Statistics were really borne out in the Cleveland-NY series. After all, NY had more RBIs than Cleveland in the regular season, and in the series...wait. Shit! Maybe regular season statistics AREN'T particularly meaningful? In fact, maybe statistics when it comes to a game played by 9 guys, any of whom can have an off night, aren't reliable in any way at any time? Yeah...that could be it. __________________ it's quiet in here

10-11-2007, 07:23 AM	#300 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Yeah.. stats don't mean shit. I mean..why would a manager like to have stats? They should just put whoever they feel like in the game no matter what the stats say. Look, we all know that stats don't determine the outcome of the game necessarily. But we all know that stats have their place. If I'm a manager and I have a relief pitcher that has blanked a certain guy his whole career and it's late in the game.. those stats come in handy because it plays the percentages. So to say that stats don't mean shit is pure bollocks and we all know it.

10-11-2007, 05:15 PM	#302 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Of course stats are important, and yes they help a manager make an educated guess. But that's all it is, a guess. But you're preaching stats as if they alone already won it for Boston. If Beantown wins, feel free to gloat, as of now its 0-0. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

10-12-2007, 02:29 PM	#306 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	Good luck fellas, game time in 30 min! This is going to be fucking great! Wooo! Sports rock. __________________ You bore me.... next.

10-12-2007, 05:02 PM	#307 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Poor, poor Pan. Getting suckered in, once again, and here we are 8-1 in the bottom of the 5th. CC's kung fu is weak!

10-13-2007, 10:02 PM	#312 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	It's tied heading into CLE. BTW.... who said he saw the Tribe bullpen doing extremely well and the Bosox's falling apart? Both have fallen apart though, this maybe a very close series and far more exciting than the WS this year. No matter what happens, I am highly impressed with the Indians. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-14-2007, 06:01 AM	#313 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	I'm sure it's been said before, but starting the games so late is really hurting the East Coast viewers. Even on a Saturday, who is going to stay up to watch an 11 inning game that didn't even start until 8:30? I'm glad the Tribe won and all, but I would have been happier if I had any chance to watch it. __________________ it's quiet in here

10-15-2007, 02:37 PM	#315 (permalink)
Cross-Over Psycho	The Rockies pitching has shocked me. I'm no baseball expert, but it seems like you can mask mediocre hitting (which the Rockies don't have) with hot streaks and "small ball". However, you can't really disguise average pitching, especially down the stretch during playoff games and games with playoff implications. The Sox-Indians series has been enjoyable to watch. Despite the Indians showing composure during tough situations during the Yankees series, I felt that the game was over after Ramirez and Lowell went back to back in game 2. Not having a personal interest in either team, it is refreshing to watch two top teams play quality baseball. Unfortunately, quality baseball includes quality at bats, resulting in some long games.

10-15-2007, 06:43 PM	#317 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	I'm surprised at Westbrook, he was really solid tonight. Also, it's always nice when a senior citizen can be a hero. Go Kenny! __________________ it's quiet in here

10-15-2007, 07:44 PM	#318 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	I expected a solid 5 innings out of Jake, but wow! 6+ innings was beyond what I could have asked for, bravo! What a exciting game, and nice change from a 5.5 hour game... those were getting old. __________________ You bore me.... next.