No sex please, we're daddy's little girls (news link) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

oFia · 03-26-2007, 07:06 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322...y_070322082138

Quote:

Originally Posted by No sex please, we're daddy's little girls

It has all the ingredients of a wedding. The proud tuxedo-clad father, the frosted white cake, the limousines and an exchange of vows.

But there is no groom and the girl in the long gown is no bride. She's daddy's little girl, there to take a vow of chastity.

In what is becoming a trend among conservative Christians in the United States, girls as young as nine are pledging to their fathers to remain virgins until they wed, in elaborate ceremonies dubbed "Purity Balls."

The gala affairs are intended to celebrate the father-daughter relationship.

The highlight is when the fathers and daughters exchange vows, with dad signing a covenant to protect his daughter's chastity by living an unblemished life and the daughter promising not to have sex until marriage.

Many fathers at the ceremonies also slip "purity rings" around the finger of their misty-eyed daughters or offer them "chastity bracelets" and other jewelry that the girls can entrust to their husbands on their wedding night.

"The father makes a pledge that he is going to keep his mind pure and be faithful to her mother and there is also a time when there is a conversation about putting the right kinds of things in your mind, such as the father not using pornography," Leslee Unruh, founder of Abstinence Clearinghouse, a leader in the so-called purity movement, told AFP in describing the balls.

She said some 1,400 Purity Balls were held across the United States in 2006, mainly in the south and midwest, and double that number were expected to take place this year.

Mike Parcha, who recently attended one of these balls with his 11-year-old daughter Lora in the western state of Colorado, said the events reinforce his family's Christian beliefs.

"We realize that purity is a lifestyle, not an event, and this is just a celebration of that lifestyle and of that relationship that I have with my daughters," he said. "The ball is a culmination of the relationship we have with God and with each other."

He said his three daughters have looked forward to attending the balls and have no qualms about pledging to remain virgins until marriage.

"They are just all for it, they think it's the greatest thing," said Parcha, 43, who is a college math teacher. "We raise our children as Christians, we share the same beliefs .... and we're on the same page.

"It's not like there is a tug of war of any kind going on."

His two older daughters, aged 11 and 18, have attended the balls while the youngest, aged 4, must wait a few years. The three girls, along with their three brothers, are all home schooled. Parcha's oldest daughter Christy, who recently graduated from high school, is now working on a fictional book about "the emotional purity of a young girl as she grows up."

The first Purity Ball in the United States was organized in 1998 by Generations of Light, a popular Christian ministry based in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Randy Wilson, who runs the ministry with his wife, said the idea was to create an event that celebrates the bonds between father and daughter.

"We saw that in our culture there wasn't a place for the father to work for a good relationship with his daughter," Wilson told AFP. "So this (relationship) allows the daughter to become a stronger person in her culture as she is bombarded with all the sexual images that are out there."

Wilson, who has five daughters, said the balls have become so popular over the years that there is now a waiting list for those wishing to attend.

Enquiries are also pouring in from aboard with organizations or churches in New Zealand, Britain and other countries asking for guidance on how to organize such gatherings.

The popularity of the balls in the United States, especially among evangelical Christians, mirrors the Bush administration's support of abstinence education in US schools. The government's funding for such initiatives has more than doubled in recent years to 206 million dollars (150 million euros).

But critics say that while teaching abstinence to children may be laudable, it is just as essential to make them aware of sexually transmitted diseases and condom use.

They also point to studies showing that the majority of adolescents who take purity pledges break them within a few years, often by engaging in risky and unprotected sex.

One study conducted by researchers at the universities of Columbia and Yale found that 88 percent of pledgers wind up having sex before marriage.

"Unfortunately these young people tend, once they start to have sex, to have more partners in a shorter period of time and to use contraception much less than their non-pledging peers," said Debra Hauser, executive vice president at Advocates for Youth, a Washington-based non-profit organization.

"Teens may pledge with the best of intention... and then as they break their pledges they are so shamed and embarrassed that it's unlikely they will go for help."

I found this article interesting - and scary. (Bold/underline font is mine. - The points I found, well, disturbing.) Figured it might also make for interesting discussion. I can respect someone else's religious beliefs - but this is an extreme that's not quite healthy imo. I guess I find this more interesting since I am taking a sociology class this semester (Sociology of the Family.)

This further enforces the idea that marriage is nothing but transferring a woman from her father's control to her husband's control. It further enforces the idea that virginity is a positive thing - not all societies do this. In fact, I wonder today, how many people do really, seriously, value virginity until marriage.

With statistics like increases in cohabitation and decreases in marriage rates what good is a vow of chastity until marriage? Lastly, I'm pretty sure my sociology text books point out that partners or relationships before marriage is healthy. It would be interesting to see the marriage rates, divorce rates, re-marriage rates on the girls that attend these "balls."

Val_1 · 03-26-2007, 07:25 PM

Creepy!

MrFriendly · 03-26-2007, 07:53 PM

Yep, that's a little creepy, sexuality is something that should be explored and be open about, not repressed.

ngdawg · 03-26-2007, 08:02 PM

Why does the disgusting thought of patriarchal ownership of a girl's vagina come to mind(and the subsequent parading of said ownership)?
/me shudders

cellophanedeity · 03-26-2007, 08:04 PM

It's an interesting concept... It's not as if any of the girls could disagree with their father's suggestion of a purity ball.

"Hey sweetie, we're going to take everyone in your life and announce that you're going to be a good little virgin until you're married! If you don't agree, your daddy will think you're a dirty godless slut"

I'm so entirely against teaching only abstinence.

cadre · 03-26-2007, 08:06 PM

I agree, it's creepy. Especially the part about rings. Personally I think people should spend less time talking about chastity and more time talking about the real issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

It's an interesting concept... It's not as if any of the girls could disagree with their father's suggestion of a purity ball.

"Hey sweetie, we're going to take everyone in your life and announce that you're going to be a good little virgin until you're married! If you don't agree, your daddy will think you're a dirty godless slut"

I think they go along with it cause they get a nice dress and a party

JStrider · 03-26-2007, 08:20 PM

abstinence only education is incredibly stupid...

here in Lubbock they only do abstinence only sex ed... and weve got really high rates of stds and pregnancy amongst the highschool population.

DaveOrion · 03-26-2007, 08:53 PM

As JStrider said the rates of teen pregnancy & stds is alarmingly high, so I wont judge someone for trying to help their teenage daughters. I didnt approach this the same way with my daughter, I had endless discussions with her about sex, drugs, higher education, politics, etc, etc, often playing the devils advocate, so she could see all sides of the issues. I left her to make up her own mind on the best course of action.

The sad part is the guilt these girls must feel when they cant live up to this vow they've made. If 88% end up having sex, thats alot of guilt.

woohog1 · 03-26-2007, 09:09 PM

I think in theory it is a good idea. I for one am a christian, but at the same time I think they may be taking this a bit too far.
I think they have the best of intentions, but at the same time, they pushing the pendulum in the wrong direction.Just my two cents worth.

Willravel · 03-26-2007, 09:34 PM

I've been with several chastity girls in my time (handsome pastors son with a mischievous streak = like a moth to a fire). Frankly, I think that the whole vow ultimately benefits teenage boys because it creates repressed, sex crazed teenage girls. Very few things excite the libido for some people like forbidden fruit. It's obviously ultimately useless as a tool to control or stop sexuality. I have to wonder at the intellect of any parent who would adopt such an idea as realistic.

waltert · 03-26-2007, 09:37 PM

I saw something on tv about this, and its definetely creepy.

I went to a strict christian school, and you wouldnt beleive the number of those people that ended up with kids and not going to college.

these type of things might work well for wealthy high-end christians, but real, intelligent sex ed is the only thing that will help the average jack and jill.

777 · 03-26-2007, 09:47 PM

I see these gals getting married very early in life

Jinn · 03-26-2007, 11:18 PM

And people wonder why the divorce rate is as high as it is. How the hell are you supposed to know what you expect in a sexual partner (that is part of a marriage, if you ask me) if you've only had one? What if they're wretched?

And I'm not in the least bit surprised that this is occuring in Colorado Springs. We've got the biggest clusterfuck of Focus on the Family, the Air Force Academy, and Fort Carson soldiers.. conservatism, fundamentalism, and "male possession" ideals abound. It's interesting, really, living in a city known for its' batshit crazy organizations...

Oh and.. welcome back cellophanedeity! been a while

Xazy · 03-27-2007, 03:57 AM

Well I am split sort of. I think this is creepy and way goes beyond I think acceptable.

I can state growing up from an orthodox Jewish home, that the belief and norm of the community was (and is) no ding with no ring. We did not have rings, we did not have a ceremony vowing to protect etc... A lot of it actually entails two aspects of Jewish believe [1] having sex with someone (but you would need witnesses that saw you 2 go in to the room, and other stuff) actually can technically cause marriage (it is technical and no desire to go in to it beyond the basic concept). [2] You can not waste your seed.

So I have no issue with the idea of trying to encourage this, but I have to agree the whole concept of how they are going about it is so wrong. And also it only covers girls and no guys.

So I guess in the end I think they are wrong just because they do it only for the girls and because the whole ceremony of it just is wrong.

Charlatan · 03-27-2007, 04:01 AM

I'm sorry but what does having sex or not having sex have to do with Christianity?

I am all for educating your children and playing devil's advocate the way that Dave Matrix suggests.

To me, the creepy sex factor aside for the moment, what the "Purity Ball" seems to be doing is training the daughter for a life of servitude. First her sexuality will be "pledged" to her father and later her father will give that pledge to her husband.

Symbolic yes, but it still smacks of ownership.

What are these people teaching their children but how to own and control women... and make no mistake their sons, if they have them, are taking note of this as well.

The_Jazz · 03-27-2007, 04:49 AM

I agree with Charlatan. The basic idea seems sound enough, but the whole wedding atmosphere along with ring exchange swerves a little close to the pedophilia line for my tastes. Maybe it's because I just finished reading something about Warren Jeffs, but I have a basic problem with the whole "child bride" concept in general.

Bill O'Rights · 03-27-2007, 07:09 AM

This goes a little beyond creepy, if you ask me. I agree with The Jazz. As soon as I read the article, I got a pedophilia vibe. While I'm sure that there is no actual incest (kinda defeats the purpose, not?) it still leaves that aftertaste. I also agree 100% with Charlatan. This couldn't get any closer to "ownership" unless Daddy actually signed over the title with original miles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

And I'm not in the least bit surprised that this is occuring in Colorado Springs. We've got the biggest clusterfuck of Focus on the Family, the Air Force Academy, and Fort Carson soldiers.. conservatism, fundamentalism, and "male possession" ideals abound. It's interesting, really, living in a city known for its' batshit crazy organizations...

The Air Force Academy is known as a batshit crazy organization?

kurty[B] · 03-27-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

The Air Force Academy is known as a batshit crazy organization?

Sorry for thread jacking... When you've lived in Colorado Springs for a few years NOT as military or a super conservative Christian church go-er even the military bases feel like "batshit crazy organizations". It took me going to the Middle East and working with the Army and Marines to realize that your average Colorado Springs bar hopping member of the armed forces is not a good representation of the majority of our service members in the United States.

And as far as the Purity Ball... Disappointing to me, but not surprising to me. I'm sure in the father and daughter's eyes it doesn't reflect ownership, they are probably making a pact with God, but in essence it is what it is. I'm sure the boys in that family are told the same ideals, not to have sex, never to masturbate, but buying a boy jewelry and a nice outfit is borderline inappropriate so why not make spectacles of their daughters. The only good thing to come out of such a pact is the girl will learn to give great head!

Sultana · 03-27-2007, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

This goes a little beyond creepy, if you ask me. I agree with The Jazz. As soon as I read the article, I got a pedophilia vibe.

It absolutely does to me!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

While I'm sure that there is no actual incest (kinda defeats the purpose, not?) it still leaves that aftertaste.

Not church-sanctioned, of course. But honestly, how could any organization not see this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I also agree 100% with Charlatan. This couldn't get any closer to "ownership" unless Daddy actually signed over the title with original miles.

I think this whole concept is disgusting. Why is it set up father/daughter anyways, instead of mother/daughter, or just the daughter on her own (like a holy debutant)?!? I'm so sick of fundamentalists treating their young women like f*cking horses. "Would you like a certificate of purity with that? We'll make an appointment with the doctor for Thursday"

"What do you mean she didn't bleed on the first night--look at those wedding sheets again! No I can't give you your dowry back, I already spent it!"

Also note: "The father makes a pledge that he is going to keep his mind pure and be faithful to her mother and there is also a time when there is a conversation about putting the right kinds of things in your mind, such as the father not using pornography," Leslee Unruh, founder of Abstinence Clearinghouse, a leader in the so-called purity movement, told AFP in describing the balls.
So they get in two sexually-controlling punches at the same time. WTH?

"Abstinence Clearinghouse"?!?!

How about we start working in a clitorectomy too while we're at it?

basmoq · 03-27-2007, 06:52 PM

creepy... The most relevant comment I can add is that after my mother's divorce and when she started dating, she gave me this advice: Explore your sexuality before your married. If she had, she may have realized just how fucked up my father was... (may he rot in hell!).

Btw, I am happily married and have no issue with the fact that my wife was not a virgin when we wed.

ColonelSpecial · 03-27-2007, 08:14 PM

I grew up in Colorado Springs and signed not one, but TWO virginity pledges (signed the second one before the purity balls began). I was a virgin until I was 23 but 'lost' (where did it go??) my virginity before I got married. I don't regret it at all either. The funny thing is, my parents were very open and frank about all things sexual growing up and were kind of stunned when I told them I had signed a virginity pledge. (I didn't tell them about the second one)
While abstinence isn't out and out wrong, it is wrong and dangerous to hold it up as the pinnacle of all things good and right.

Hektore · 03-27-2007, 10:35 PM

While I personally don't think their is anything wrong with premarital sex, there apparently is a large section of the US population that doesn't agree with me. I don't really think it is anyone else's place to tell somebody how to raise their childen. Some people raise thier kids to be racists and bigots everywhere, in the grand scheme of things I think there are worse values they could be trying to instill upon thier daughters than chastity.

MrFriendly · 03-28-2007, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hektore

While I personally don't think their is anything wrong with premarital sex, there apparently is a large section of the US population that doesn't agree with me. I don't really think it is anyone else's place to tell somebody how to raise their childen. Some people raise thier kids to be racists and bigots everywhere, in the grand scheme of things I think there are worse values they could be trying to instill upon thier daughters than chastity.

Although I agree with you, do you not find it frustrating that the religious right feel the need to push their agenda onto everyone else?

And I'm not talking about any one specific country or group.

I'm not religious, I am however agnostic, but I just strongly believe that religious has no place in government.

Bill O'Rights · 03-28-2007, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFriendly

I just strongly believe that religious has no place in government.

You are correct, Sir. Religion has absolutely no place in the government. That is the basic framework of my personal value system.

However...the government is not involved in this. Meaning, that it is not government sponsored, nor sanctioned. This is a societal issue. Albeit a strange and creepy one.

At the very least, I feel, this is going to place an undue amount of pressure, stress, and guilt on these girls, as they grow up and mature. Sure, it may be a fun party now. Fancy dresses, tuxedos, ballrooms, crystal chandoliers, limousines...all right out of Cinderella. But for those that take it seriously? For those that understand the implications of it all? I think that they're in for a world of emotional hurt down the road.

Hektore · 03-28-2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFriendly

Although I agree with you, do you not find it frustrating that the religious right feel the need to push their agenda onto everyone else?

While I can understand why people find it frustrating, they have to remember that one of the tenets of being an evangelical is evangelizing. Yes, evangelicals can be annoying, but only if you listen. I personally don't care what they do until it starts interfering with how I want to live my life.

Yes I find this ceremony without merit and think that ultimately it does more harm than good ([Agree]Bill O'Rights' last post[/agree]). However, it doesn't interfere with my life in any way and they are well within their rights to do so. So, If they want to parade their kids around as champions of virginity and God, then I say leave them be. Do I think it makes them bad parents with unrealistic goals, which put unnecesary pressure on their childen? Yes, but their aren't any laws against that.

Charlatan · 03-28-2007, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hektore

I don't really think it is anyone else's place to tell somebody how to raise their childen. Some people raise thier kids to be racists and bigots everywhere, in the grand scheme of things I think there are worse values they could be trying to instill upon thier daughters than chastity.

I don't think it is the instilling of chastity per se that people here are opposed to... it is the way in which that chastity is being instilled where the problems lie.

Out of curiosity, you say that you don't think it is anyone else's place to tell other how to raise their children, do you have a line that once crossed we should interfere, or is it anything goes?

Sultana · 03-28-2007, 08:36 AM

More on Purity Balls, By Jennifer Baumgardner/February 2007 issue of Glamour Magazine, posted on the Generations of Light website:
http://www.generationsoflight.com/ge...html/News.html

Quote:

In a chandelier-lit ballroom overlooking the Rocky Mountains one recent evening, some hundred couples feast on herb-crusted chicken and julienned vegetables. The men look dapper in tuxedos; their dates are resplendent in floor-length gowns, long white gloves and tiaras framing twirly, ornate updos. Seated at a table with four couples, I watch as the gray-haired man next to me reaches into his breast pocket, pulls out a small satin box and flips it open to check out a gold ring he’s about to place on the finger of the woman sitting to his right. Her eyes well up with tears as she is overcome by emotion.

The man’s date? His 25-year-old daughter. Welcome to Colorado Springs’ Seventh Annual Father-Daughter Purity Ball, held at the five-star Broadmoor Hotel. The event’s purpose is, in part, to celebrate dad-daughter bonding, but the main agenda is for fathers to vow to protect the girls’ chastity until they marry and for the daughters to promise to stay pure. Pastor Randy Wilson, host of the event and cofounder of the ball, strides to the front of the room, takes the microphone and asks the men, “Are you ready to war for your daughters’ purity?”

Wilson’s voice is jovial, yet his message is serious—and spreading like wildfire. Dozens of these lavish events are held every year, mainly in the South and Midwest, from Tucson to Peoria and New Orleans, sponsored by churches, nonprofit groups and crisis pregnancy centers. The balls are all part of the evangelical Christian movement, and they embody one of its key doctrines: abstinence until marriage. Thousands of girls have taken purity vows at these events over the past nine years. While the abstinence movement itself is fairly mainstream—about 10 percent of teen boys and 16 percent of girls in the United States have signed virginity pledges at churches, rallies or programs sponsored by groups such as True Love Waits—purity balls represent its more extreme edge. The young women who sign covenants at these parties tend to be devout, homeschooled and sheltered from popular culture.

Randy Wilson’s 19-year-old, Khrystian, is typical: She works at her church, spends most weekends at home with her family and has never danced with a male other than her father or brother. Emily Smith, an 18-year-old I meet, says that even kissing is out for her. “I made a promise to myself when I was younger,” she says, “to save my first kiss for my wedding day.” A tenet of the abstinence movement is that having lovers before marriage often leads to divorce. In the Wilsons’ community, young women hope to meet suitors at church, at college or through family connections.

The majority of the girls here are, as purity ball guidelines suggest, “just old enough…[to] have begun menstruating….” But a couple dozen fathers have also brought girls under 10. “This evening is more about spending time with her than her purity at this point,” says one seven-year-old’s dad, a trifle sheepishly. The event is seemingly innocent—not once do I hear “sex” or “virgin” cross anyone’s lips. Still, every one of the girls here, even the four-year-old, will sign that purity covenant.

Encouraging girls to avoid sleeping around is, without a doubt, a good thing. The same goes for dad-daughter bonding; research shows that girls who have solid relationships with their fathers are more likely to grow up to be confident, self-respecting, successful women and to make wise choices along the way. Question is, is putting girls’ purity on a pedestal the way to achieve these all-important goals?
...

The article is much longer, too long to post in it's entirety here. It seems to be (at first glance) fairly balanced...it's obviously not produced by the Generations of Light, but I do have to give them kudos for posting it on their own website, along with a link to the Glamour-sponsored poll on Glamour's website.

Quote:

"Smart or scary? Tell us what you think here."

I'd like to know why boys aren't targeted for purity as well? Oh that's right, it doesn't matter to anyone whether males are sexually *pure* or not. Heck, no one even expects it, much less promotes it....

And meanwhile the mother stays home, silent, her precious virginity long since bought, paid for, and disposed of in the approved manner...

Excuse me, I have to wipe the foam from my lips.

The_Jazz · 03-28-2007, 08:43 AM

Sultana, after reading all of that article, I still can't get the echos of Warren Jeffs out of my head. Everything about it screams "underaged bride" at me. I know that's not the purpose of these ceremonies (far from it), but imagery that they're using is just too much for me.

Sultana · 03-28-2007, 08:49 AM

Side note, because I am NOT DONE ranting about this...Why is virginity something to be taken or lost; rather than shed, given (sometimes used, but not nearly as often), put away, etc. Even in language women don't have power or authority over their own sexuality! Although it is their responsibility to take it. But it doesn't come naturally.

I'm so riled up about this, I should stop. For now.

Ample · 03-28-2007, 08:49 AM

I like what Bill Maher said about this over the weekend, "If you’re slipping a ring on your daughter’s finger and eating wedding cake, trust me, you’re plotting to fuck the babysitter."

Bill O'Rights · 03-28-2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Randy Wilson’s 19-year-old, Khrystian, is typical: She works at her church, spends most weekends at home with her family and has never danced with a male other than her father or brother. Emily Smith, an 18-year-old I meet, says that even kissing is out for her. “I made a promise to myself when I was younger,” she says, “to save my first kiss for my wedding day.”

That's not creepy. That's just...weird.
No emotional problems in the making there. No sir.

Ok...for real, now...I can see wanting to remain a virgin until you are married. I really can. But, to not even kiss until your wedding day?!? Something is very very wrong.

Quote:

The same goes for dad-daughter bonding; research shows that girls who have solid relationships with their fathers are more likely to grow up to be confident, self-respecting, successful women and to make wise choices along the way.

Ok...I can see that. Makes perfect sense. And, you know what? I think that my daughter would've absolutely loved to have gone to a party like this, all dressed up in a fancy ballroom. Very much akin to a debutant ball.
Why do they have to attach such...constraints on it. Why do they have to make it so damn bizarre. A 4 year old? Signing a pledge? My 4 year old can barely tell me how many kids were in his daycare class today. A 25 year old? Signing the same pledge? Time to start thinking for yourself, Honey. Or...maybe she is...I dunno.

Hell, it's almost cult like. It'd make a nice bad "B" movie, for air at 2:00am.

Willravel · 03-28-2007, 10:42 AM

You know what really helps a woman grow up confident? Not having an insane father.

The_Jazz · 03-28-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

You know what really helps a woman grow up confident? Not having an insane father.

Sorry, will, but if I didn't do this, someone else would:

It's too bad your daughter won't grow up confident.

ba-dump-bump. Thank you, I'll be here all week.

Willravel · 03-28-2007, 11:13 AM

touche

oFia · 03-28-2007, 11:14 AM

Well, I agree with a lot of people. One of my first thoughts when I saw the picture to go with the article on Yahoo was that of pedophile creepiness -- or look -- another topic for a Law and Order: SVU. I think this scares me more than those "Jesus Camps" that there's been numerous articles (and a movie?) about.

I think my biggest problem with this is that there is nothing for mothers or sons. What about mother-daughter relationships? To me this whole thing screams of an attempt to return to virgin brides, dowries and marriage equaling "till death do us part."

I suspect that this, at least in part, is to combat the divorce statistics and decreasing marriage statistics. People aren't marrying as soon - or as often. But divorce rates aren't as scary.* The fact that religion is part of this..brainwashing..err.. teaching isn't really even the point/or problem in my mind. It's just that it's no surprise this is coming from fundamentalist Christians. That and it's further proof that the mainly Christian society of America has some catching up to do. The concept of virgin equaling clean and pure and better is something that people need to stop believing in.

james t kirk · 03-28-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 777

I see these gals getting married very early in life

Yeah, to their fathers.

The whole thing is very creepy and there something in me that thinks this has incestuous overtones even.

Too much, "Daddy's little girl"

pig · 03-28-2007, 01:33 PM

quick response to bor: i did some poking around and couldn't find the exact numbers / connections, but in as far as government's role, i think the concern is that some of the groups helping to set these things up (e.g. Generations of Light) are receiving federal funding for abstinence-only efforts and faith-based initiatives.

For creepy, here's the Pledge:

I, (DAUGHTER’S NAME)’S FATHER, CHOOSE BEFORE GOD TO COVER MY DAUGHTER AS HER AUTHORITY AND PROTECTION IN THE AREA OF PURITY. I WILL BE PURE IN MY OWN LIFE AS A MAN, HUSBAND AND FATHER. I WILL BE A MAN OF INTEGRITY AND ACCOUNTABLITY AS I LEAD, GUIDE AND PRAY OVER MY DAUGHTER AND MY FAMILY AS THE HIGH PRIEST IN MY HOME. THIS COVERING WILL BE USED BY GOD TO INFLUENCE GENERATIONS TO COME.

Atropos4 · 03-28-2007, 03:04 PM

Anyone else disturbed by the fact that many of these girls are coerced to pledging when they are not even preteen? I knew what sex was at a VERY young age but I wouldn't have been able to comprehend or understand the pledge being made. I highly suspect most of these girls are going through with it because it's a dress party all for them. Attention attention attention....I would have wanted that much attention when I was younger. I read that and immediately thought the girls just love the attention.
I've seen similar kinds of things when growing up.
A church my mom goes to would have wednesday night service and they would have a pledge every wednesday. I was maybe 13, 14 at the time and thought the whole thing was kind of weird then. I saw people pledging to be virgins that were in fact not virgins. I remember the youth pastor asking me why I would not pledge. I think I said something along the lines of why would I make a promise I can't predict I can keep.
To me back then I didn't want to dissapoint anyone by breaking any promises and the only way to do that was to not make any.
As it was my mom was the type that preached "no sex till marriage" Quite honestly I have no idea why as all three of us kids have different dads and were born out of wedlock and has talked of cheating....whole other story...

I chose to wait till I found someone that I really truly loved and thought I could spend the rest of my life with. I just wanted my first time to be with someone that loved me and wanted me. I was 18.

What makes me sick is alot of these people are having their daughters go through these ceremonies and do not educate them on safe sex or what it intails. My mom never once had a sex talk with me. The only things I knew I had read or heard from friends. Thank goodness for Cosmo magazine back then.
When my mom discovered I had been sleeping with Alpha phi she flipped and exclaimed "HOw could you?! I never got to have the sex talk with you?!, Don't you dare tell your sister because she'll want to do it too"

Little late to be telling an 18 year old about sex? Nevermind the fact my younger sister had already been sexually active for a year or two before me.
They found out she was having sex when she became knocked up her junior year of high school.

Another thing that bothers me is the lack of mention of boys staying celebate. Girls are not owned. I loathed being treated like that when I was growing up and hate to see other young girls go through the same thing. The whole thing is archaic.

MrFriendly · 03-28-2007, 05:24 PM

Personally, I don't think sex is treated with enough reverence and respect by enough people these days anyway.

But, there is a fine line between treating sex with respect, and being prudish and sexually repressed. Both are very destructive and will adversely affect relationships and how you interact with people, particularly members of the opposite sex.

Like everything else, it's all about a healthy balance. Our sexual urges are something we really can't deny. Wanting to fuck is nothing to be ashamed of. But how we go about it and accepting our responsibilities and consequences is another side of the coin we always have to keep in mind. But is that really different from any other facet of life?

If people choose a path, it should be just that, a choice. What these farthers are asking of their daughters is not to choose, but to blindly comply because that's what their customs dictate.

I don't like the idea of teenagers running around fucking anything that moves without really considering the consequences of what they're doing. But I don't like the idea of them being guilt tripped into shutting off their sexuality either.

Sexuality is a very personal thing, and people will awaken to it when they're good and ready. I hate this idea that certain parts of society make you feel like a prude for not having sex enough or early enough, and other parts of society are the polar opposite. Oh and it shits me no end that no one will bat an eyelid to promiscuous males, yet god fucking forbid we have too many sexually independent women who do the same thing. To be honest, what business is it of anyone elses unless you choose it to be?

I will back peoples choices 100% as long as they're comfortable with what they're doing, know what they're doing, and can handle whatever consequences there may be, oh, and what they're doing isn't hurting anyone else.

Hektore · 03-28-2007, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Out of curiosity, you say that you don't think it is anyone else's place to tell other how to raise their children, do you have a line that once crossed we should interfere, or is it anything goes?

Well, I suppose the line for me falls in how I define raising your child. Raising your child, to me is the part where you mold the type of person they are going to be, what values they're going to have ect. I believe there should be intervention in cases of neglect or abuse, because you aren't raising your child. As far as what constitutes abuse, I suppose that is a case by case problem.

In this case, I don't think they are abusing their daughters, just indoctrinating them into a different value system then the one that I function in. I guess it boils down to myself failing to see that this process is inherently harmful. The potential exists, but there also exists a great potential that these girls will not suffer in any way. People live long happy lives all over the globe as fundamental Christians; reasonable people live this life. For myself, it's weird, it's not the best parenting strategy, but just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean it doesn't work well for other people. Maybe I'm just too much of a relativist.

Ultimately, I believe there will come a point in these girls lives when they realize that they do not have to adopt the same belief system as their parents, they are free to make their own choices and are responsible to do so. That could only be because that's what happened to me, and I chose a different path than many of those in my family would have chosen for me. I do not feel I was harmed in any way by a similar value system, in a way I believe I benefited because it enabled me to avoid things I was not mature enough to handle. I also benefited from a solid sexual education and parents who didn't use religion as an tool to avoid important issues because they should not have come up anyway. It's unfortunate that there won't be the same education for many of these girls.

03-26-2007, 07:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	Creepy! __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

03-26-2007, 07:53 PM	#3 (permalink)
MrFriendly Psycho Location: Australia	Yep, that's a little creepy, sexuality is something that should be explored and be open about, not repressed. __________________ You are not a slave

03-26-2007, 08:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Why does the disgusting thought of patriarchal ownership of a girl's vagina come to mind(and the subsequent parading of said ownership)? /me shudders __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

03-26-2007, 08:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	abstinence only education is incredibly stupid... here in Lubbock they only do abstinence only sex ed... and weve got really high rates of stds and pregnancy amongst the highschool population. __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

03-26-2007, 08:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	As JStrider said the rates of teen pregnancy & stds is alarmingly high, so I wont judge someone for trying to help their teenage daughters. I didnt approach this the same way with my daughter, I had endless discussions with her about sex, drugs, higher education, politics, etc, etc, often playing the devils advocate, so she could see all sides of the issues. I left her to make up her own mind on the best course of action. The sad part is the guilt these girls must feel when they cant live up to this vow they've made. If 88% end up having sex, thats alot of guilt. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-26-2007, 08:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
cellophanedeity Heliotrope Location: A warm room	It's an interesting concept... It's not as if any of the girls could disagree with their father's suggestion of a purity ball. "Hey sweetie, we're going to take everyone in your life and announce that you're going to be a good little virgin until you're married! If you don't agree, your daddy will think you're a dirty godless slut" I'm so entirely against teaching only abstinence.

03-26-2007, 09:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
woohog1 Crazy Location: Arkansas	I think in theory it is a good idea. I for one am a christian, but at the same time I think they may be taking this a bit too far. I think they have the best of intentions, but at the same time, they pushing the pendulum in the wrong direction.Just my two cents worth. __________________ God created man, Sam Colt made them equal.

03-26-2007, 09:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I've been with several chastity girls in my time (handsome pastors son with a mischievous streak = like a moth to a fire). Frankly, I think that the whole vow ultimately benefits teenage boys because it creates repressed, sex crazed teenage girls. Very few things excite the libido for some people like forbidden fruit. It's obviously ultimately useless as a tool to control or stop sexuality. I have to wonder at the intellect of any parent who would adopt such an idea as realistic.

03-26-2007, 09:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
waltert Insane	I saw something on tv about this, and its definetely creepy. I went to a strict christian school, and you wouldnt beleive the number of those people that ended up with kids and not going to college. these type of things might work well for wealthy high-end christians, but real, intelligent sex ed is the only thing that will help the average jack and jill.

03-26-2007, 09:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
777 drawn and redrawn Location: Some where in Southern California	I see these gals getting married very early in life __________________ "I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip." Roger Zelazny

03-26-2007, 11:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	And people wonder why the divorce rate is as high as it is. How the hell are you supposed to know what you expect in a sexual partner (that is part of a marriage, if you ask me) if you've only had one? What if they're wretched? And I'm not in the least bit surprised that this is occuring in Colorado Springs. We've got the biggest clusterfuck of Focus on the Family, the Air Force Academy, and Fort Carson soldiers.. conservatism, fundamentalism, and "male possession" ideals abound. It's interesting, really, living in a city known for its' batshit crazy organizations... Oh and.. welcome back cellophanedeity! been a while __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

03-27-2007, 03:57 AM	#14 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Well I am split sort of. I think this is creepy and way goes beyond I think acceptable. I can state growing up from an orthodox Jewish home, that the belief and norm of the community was (and is) no ding with no ring. We did not have rings, we did not have a ceremony vowing to protect etc... A lot of it actually entails two aspects of Jewish believe [1] having sex with someone (but you would need witnesses that saw you 2 go in to the room, and other stuff) actually can technically cause marriage (it is technical and no desire to go in to it beyond the basic concept). [2] You can not waste your seed. So I have no issue with the idea of trying to encourage this, but I have to agree the whole concept of how they are going about it is so wrong. And also it only covers girls and no guys. So I guess in the end I think they are wrong just because they do it only for the girls and because the whole ceremony of it just is wrong.

03-27-2007, 04:01 AM	#15 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I'm sorry but what does having sex or not having sex have to do with Christianity? I am all for educating your children and playing devil's advocate the way that Dave Matrix suggests. To me, the creepy sex factor aside for the moment, what the "Purity Ball" seems to be doing is training the daughter for a life of servitude. First her sexuality will be "pledged" to her father and later her father will give that pledge to her husband. Symbolic yes, but it still smacks of ownership. What are these people teaching their children but how to own and control women... and make no mistake their sons, if they have them, are taking note of this as well. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-27-2007, 04:49 AM	#16 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I agree with Charlatan. The basic idea seems sound enough, but the whole wedding atmosphere along with ring exchange swerves a little close to the pedophilia line for my tastes. Maybe it's because I just finished reading something about Warren Jeffs, but I have a basic problem with the whole "child bride" concept in general. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-27-2007, 06:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
basmoq It's a girly girl! Location: OH, USA	creepy... The most relevant comment I can add is that after my mother's divorce and when she started dating, she gave me this advice: Explore your sexuality before your married. If she had, she may have realized just how fucked up my father was... (may he rot in hell!). Btw, I am happily married and have no issue with the fact that my wife was not a virgin when we wed. __________________ "There's someone out there for everyone - even if you need a pickaxe, a compass, and night goggles to find them." Last edited by basmoq; 03-27-2007 at 06:53 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

03-27-2007, 08:14 PM	#21 (permalink)
ColonelSpecial Insane	I grew up in Colorado Springs and signed not one, but TWO virginity pledges (signed the second one before the purity balls began). I was a virgin until I was 23 but 'lost' (where did it go??) my virginity before I got married. I don't regret it at all either. The funny thing is, my parents were very open and frank about all things sexual growing up and were kind of stunned when I told them I had signed a virginity pledge. (I didn't tell them about the second one) While abstinence isn't out and out wrong, it is wrong and dangerous to hold it up as the pinnacle of all things good and right. __________________ "Mommy, the presidents are squishing me!" "Using the pull out method of contraceptive is like saying I won't use a seat belt, I'll just jump out of the car before it hits that tree." Sara

03-27-2007, 10:35 PM	#22 (permalink)
Hektore Junkie Location: Greater Harrisburg Area	While I personally don't think their is anything wrong with premarital sex, there apparently is a large section of the US population that doesn't agree with me. I don't really think it is anyone else's place to tell somebody how to raise their childen. Some people raise thier kids to be racists and bigots everywhere, in the grand scheme of things I think there are worse values they could be trying to instill upon thier daughters than chastity. __________________ The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

03-28-2007, 08:43 AM	#28 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Sultana, after reading all of that article, I still can't get the echos of Warren Jeffs out of my head. Everything about it screams "underaged bride" at me. I know that's not the purpose of these ceremonies (far from it), but imagery that they're using is just too much for me. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-28-2007, 08:49 AM	#29 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	Side note, because I am NOT DONE ranting about this...Why is virginity something to be taken or lost; rather than shed, given (sometimes used, but not nearly as often), put away, etc. Even in language women don't have power or authority over their own sexuality! Although it is their responsibility to take it. But it doesn't come naturally. I'm so riled up about this, I should stop. For now. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

03-28-2007, 08:49 AM	#30 (permalink)
Ample Psycho Location: In your closet	I like what Bill Maher said about this over the weekend, "If you’re slipping a ring on your daughter’s finger and eating wedding cake, trust me, you’re plotting to fuck the babysitter." __________________ Her juju beads are so nice She kissed my third cousin twice Im the king of pomona

03-28-2007, 10:42 AM	#32 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You know what really helps a woman grow up confident? Not having an insane father.

03-28-2007, 11:13 AM	#34 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	touche

03-28-2007, 11:14 AM	#35 (permalink)
oFia Tilted Location: Texas	Well, I agree with a lot of people. One of my first thoughts when I saw the picture to go with the article on Yahoo was that of pedophile creepiness -- or look -- another topic for a Law and Order: SVU. I think this scares me more than those "Jesus Camps" that there's been numerous articles (and a movie?) about. I think my biggest problem with this is that there is nothing for mothers or sons. What about mother-daughter relationships? To me this whole thing screams of an attempt to return to virgin brides, dowries and marriage equaling "till death do us part." I suspect that this, at least in part, is to combat the divorce statistics and decreasing marriage statistics. People aren't marrying as soon - or as often. But divorce rates aren't as scary.* The fact that religion is part of this..brainwashing..err.. teaching isn't really even the point/or problem in my mind. It's just that it's no surprise this is coming from fundamentalist Christians. That and it's further proof that the mainly Christian society of America has some catching up to do. The concept of virgin equaling clean and pure and better is something that people need to stop believing in.

03-28-2007, 01:33 PM	#37 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	quick response to bor: i did some poking around and couldn't find the exact numbers / connections, but in as far as government's role, i think the concern is that some of the groups helping to set these things up (e.g. Generations of Light) are receiving federal funding for abstinence-only efforts and faith-based initiatives. For creepy, here's the Pledge: I, (DAUGHTER’S NAME)’S FATHER, CHOOSE BEFORE GOD TO COVER MY DAUGHTER AS HER AUTHORITY AND PROTECTION IN THE AREA OF PURITY. I WILL BE PURE IN MY OWN LIFE AS A MAN, HUSBAND AND FATHER. I WILL BE A MAN OF INTEGRITY AND ACCOUNTABLITY AS I LEAD, GUIDE AND PRAY OVER MY DAUGHTER AND MY FAMILY AS THE HIGH PRIEST IN MY HOME. THIS COVERING WILL BE USED BY GOD TO INFLUENCE GENERATIONS TO COME. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

03-28-2007, 03:04 PM	#38 (permalink)
Atropos4 Think about it Location: North Carolina	Anyone else disturbed by the fact that many of these girls are coerced to pledging when they are not even preteen? I knew what sex was at a VERY young age but I wouldn't have been able to comprehend or understand the pledge being made. I highly suspect most of these girls are going through with it because it's a dress party all for them. Attention attention attention....I would have wanted that much attention when I was younger. I read that and immediately thought the girls just love the attention. I've seen similar kinds of things when growing up. A church my mom goes to would have wednesday night service and they would have a pledge every wednesday. I was maybe 13, 14 at the time and thought the whole thing was kind of weird then. I saw people pledging to be virgins that were in fact not virgins. I remember the youth pastor asking me why I would not pledge. I think I said something along the lines of why would I make a promise I can't predict I can keep. To me back then I didn't want to dissapoint anyone by breaking any promises and the only way to do that was to not make any. As it was my mom was the type that preached "no sex till marriage" Quite honestly I have no idea why as all three of us kids have different dads and were born out of wedlock and has talked of cheating....whole other story... I chose to wait till I found someone that I really truly loved and thought I could spend the rest of my life with. I just wanted my first time to be with someone that loved me and wanted me. I was 18. What makes me sick is alot of these people are having their daughters go through these ceremonies and do not educate them on safe sex or what it intails. My mom never once had a sex talk with me. The only things I knew I had read or heard from friends. Thank goodness for Cosmo magazine back then. When my mom discovered I had been sleeping with Alpha phi she flipped and exclaimed "HOw could you?! I never got to have the sex talk with you?!, Don't you dare tell your sister because she'll want to do it too" Little late to be telling an 18 year old about sex? Nevermind the fact my younger sister had already been sexually active for a year or two before me. They found out she was having sex when she became knocked up her junior year of high school. Another thing that bothers me is the lack of mention of boys staying celebate. Girls are not owned. I loathed being treated like that when I was growing up and hate to see other young girls go through the same thing. The whole thing is archaic. __________________ Minds are like parachutes. They work better open. "If I were Hermione, I would have licked his pantleg."

03-28-2007, 05:24 PM	#39 (permalink)
MrFriendly Psycho Location: Australia	Personally, I don't think sex is treated with enough reverence and respect by enough people these days anyway. But, there is a fine line between treating sex with respect, and being prudish and sexually repressed. Both are very destructive and will adversely affect relationships and how you interact with people, particularly members of the opposite sex. Like everything else, it's all about a healthy balance. Our sexual urges are something we really can't deny. Wanting to fuck is nothing to be ashamed of. But how we go about it and accepting our responsibilities and consequences is another side of the coin we always have to keep in mind. But is that really different from any other facet of life? If people choose a path, it should be just that, a choice. What these farthers are asking of their daughters is not to choose, but to blindly comply because that's what their customs dictate. I don't like the idea of teenagers running around fucking anything that moves without really considering the consequences of what they're doing. But I don't like the idea of them being guilt tripped into shutting off their sexuality either. Sexuality is a very personal thing, and people will awaken to it when they're good and ready. I hate this idea that certain parts of society make you feel like a prude for not having sex enough or early enough, and other parts of society are the polar opposite. Oh and it shits me no end that no one will bat an eyelid to promiscuous males, yet god fucking forbid we have too many sexually independent women who do the same thing. To be honest, what business is it of anyone elses unless you choose it to be? I will back peoples choices 100% as long as they're comfortable with what they're doing, know what they're doing, and can handle whatever consequences there may be, oh, and what they're doing isn't hurting anyone else. __________________ You are not a slave