greyeyes

OK, so I'm asking a question that might seem to have an obvious answer at first but if you think about it....well it might still seem obvious, but what I'm hoping for here is the honest opinion after some thought. From both men or women, do you believe that seduction is always wrong? I have been pondering this thought for many many months and I still have not been able to come up with an answer that I do not refute with more information. The seducer might seem to be an evil person who uses a person for their own bidding, but this is not exactly the case. A seducer allows a person the very fantasy that they desire and would have never been able to experience without the seducer. Also, why is it in past history that seducers are seen in an admiring light? For example: Marilyn Monroe, Don Juan (who was actually numerous spanish seducers who's exploits were accumulated under one name), Cleopatra, D'Annunizo....the list goes on. My question is posed as such: is seduction morally wrong?
(P.S. I actually am writing my thesis on this topic so everyone's input will be much appreiciated!)

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toxic515

grey,
First of all, there are a number of implications and definitions to the word seduce. It can simply mean to "win over, attract or entice". That doesn't sound so evil, does it? (of course it can also mean to lead one away from duties and or to corrupt, but who's counting?)

I think we often malign the word manipulate by lumping it into a category that is arbitrarily "bad", and in the long run, seduction is a form of manipulation. As is any argument, debate, and most discussion. We constantly manipulate one another, and it isn't bad, it's a method of making our points or getting our message across. It's how we convince each other of a point, whether the point is that you really want to have sex with me, or that there is or is not a God, or perhaps that a PC is better than a Mac (or vice versa, please no insane flame wars or thread jacking, just using this to make a point... or manipulate your thought process) And so we return to seduce, or seduction. Seduction is not normally coersion, which has a radically different meaning or implication, and I'd agree that coersion is evil. I'm going to assume at this point that you probably mean to use the definition of "entice to have sex". I have a hard time with that being "bad" as well. Seduction can be part of forplay, it can also be part of the courting process or "mating ritual" for lack of a more handy term in my mind. Perhaps the definition you use is " to lead astray from accepted principals, to corrupt" Again, I'm not convinced that even this is always "bad". I'm not at all in line with the idea that societies mores are somehow correct because a majority accept them. Not so many years ago the entire world accepted that slavery was just fine and dandy.. part of the natural cycle. (not just in the US) Today we've all pretty well figured out that it's an abomination. That being said, seduction is likely to be what the seducer and seducee make of it. One must be convinced to be seduced, so unless it involves fraud, it's as much the responsibility of the seducee to make an objective decision about the actions involved as it is the seducer's.

I hope that's all less confusing to you than it's become to my tired mind.....

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Lizra

Off the top of my head,

seducer = narcissist....it's all about them, and their game...right?

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Happy atheist

MSD

These days, the guys who do it call themselves pickup artists and every last one of them is a sleazy asshole who would steal his best friend's girlfriend for bragging rights. The whole idea is about using social engineering to fuck someone who would normally not agree to hop into bed with you.

Toaster126

Seduction is never wrong. You can't seduce someone without their consent. Much like "stealing" someone from another person... so I guess I disagree with the principles you assume from the beginning.

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Sage

I 100% agree with Toaster. Anytime someone has any sort of interaction with another person (unless it's a strange circumstance, as in brain injury, etc), then BOTH parties have a say in what happens. The person doing the seducing might have motives that are less than "pure," but the person listening to the seducer also makes the concious choice to keep listening to them or to walk away. Perhaps men who do go to bars to seduce women "prey" on women who are young and "stupid," or women who are easy, but the woman still has a choice in that situation. And men are not the only ones who seduce- women definitely get all tarted up and go trolling as well.

Let us know how your thesis turns out- this is a very opnionated topic!

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Halx

I'm very much in favor of seduction. I enjoy it happening to me very much.

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greyeyes

Ok, so here's the deal, what I'm writing on is the idea that religion uses seducing tactics to lure people into their in-group. There are many cases where suduction can ruin a person and where seduction and bring the best out of someone. Perhaps, the deal with seduction being wrong is that some types can lead down a bad path while the other can do the exact opposite. The problem is whether the seduced knows which is happening and even if they realize that they are going down the wrong path it might allready be too late for them to care. I'm speaking of the seduction of both men and women here.
I am wondering where people believe that the line of good and bad (evil) seduction should be drawn.

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I'm kind of jealous of the life I'm supposedly leading.
- Zach Braff

cadre

I second that

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My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

Sharon

I too love being seduced. When it is done well though, it does feel like I am not in control, but I am being sucked in by a force much more powerful than myself.

Wilkerson

It depends on the sort of seduction and who is doing it and how good they are at it. Essentially I hate seduction of any sort. I have been victimized by the scantily clad seducers and the ones who think rubbing against me in a forced upon me hug is sexy. There are those who lean forward to kiss, presenting the side of their face and then turn at the last second and slobber over my lips. NOT sexy!

Do not try temptation dances or anything else. Bathing in a vat of bacon fat may seem like a good way to appeal to my dining desires, but trust me, it makes me nauseous to realize you'd slither around in hog renderings. (nothing against hogs though...they can seduce me to a dinner table anytime they want).

There are the crotch rubber seducers, the come hither eyes, the ones who demand that I make love to them...sorry lady; but you're 85 and withered and look like my late grandfather with that mustache and beard.

Women who think going around in jeans cut below the belt loop and men who wear mesh undershirts or speedos when they weigh 500 pounds...this is not the material for seduction. Women who wear skimpy tops and no bra to hold their 90 year old saggers, men who tug playfully at their groin...

Blowing in my ear is annoying not sexy.

Trust me, if you want to seduce me then just be a normal natural person without a bunch of gimmicks.

Sultana

Seduction is different things to different people. Relativity and all that. There is no "good" or "bad" inherent in the word or the action, although to many the word itself can imply deception, in some ways.

Sometimes seduction can be as simple as looking a man in the eye, and holding his gaze confidently. Not a trick, really.

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My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Philangicality

There is nothing wrong with seduction.

It is not a recent invention by society.

It just has recently been "coined," which brings up the controversy. It was previously known as courtship, which sounds a lot more civilized, but as we all know, when people shugar coat things, sometimes they are just avoiding the truth, which slows down the process of awareness.

Your parents did it, their parents did it, their parents' parents did it.

It is just a matter if you can be mature with your level of seduction or not.

There is not Black and White answer saying that it is ok or not ok.

It is up to the seducer and seducee to decide if the seduction is being devoleped in an acceptable manner.

This is riddiculous. It is like saying that all women that have sex are "sluts."

Ya, maybe some Pickup artists are the type of guys to steal their best friend's girlfriend, but not all of them.

Especially not
I would say that more of them are the type of guys that would steal your girlfriend. Maybe that is why you have anger towards pickup artists. I don't really know.

You also cannot say that all guys that are into seduction these days call themselves Pickup Artists. For the most part the Pickup Artist community is in English.

Some Afghan dude in Afghanastan right now is trying to get in some Afghan chick's pants. Most likely he does not speak english let alone read articles on seduction.

His method of seduciton maybe to enslave the Afghan chick for life or something, I do not really know Afghan social customs, which is not a method of seduction I necessarily agree with, but he is still seducing. Using the social engineering his ancestors have designed to mate, which is a natural part of life.

I am not defending all Pickup Artists here. I am just saying that a rash generalization is made about them which is not always true.

Yes some guys do it strictly for bragging rights. These guys may also run businesses based on teaching seduction, which is how they make their living. Being up to date in their dating is pretty important if that is the case if they want to eat.

Some other guys are fucking shovinist assholes who think of all females as only a piece of vaginal meat. Most likely the type of girls that they are sleeping with, if they are sexually active, are a piece of sex meat. That is how they think of themselves, so that is how they present themselves in society. However, not all females are the same, thankfully.

There is a difference between a womanizer and a ladies-man.

I also do not see why using social engineering to get somebody to sleep with you who normaly would not is necessarialy wrong.

It is no different than buying flowers for your girlfriend or writting her a poem on valentines day to get a kiss. Some husbands buy their wives diamonds for blowjobs. That is perfectly acceptable in society. There are no laws against it and it is using social (matrimony) engineering to get sex.

To sum things up, seduction involves two parties. Each party is their own entity with their own standards and morals. They each have the capability to think and make decisions on their own unless it is a case with brain damage or something like a previous poster said.

If both parties do not agree with the other's standards/morals, there is no attraction present. One, or both will probably repel one another. With out attraction, seduction cannot even go on.

Note that I do not claim to be a pickup artist. I am just a regular guy that does not want to waste time, energy, or money in terms of gifts, on a woman that may or may not even give me sexual intercourse.

The decision is not up to me, because contrary to popular belief, thier pussy is exactly that, THEIR pussy. The majority of the time, the female has the generousity to make the decision that sexual intercourse happens in seduction. This is where the feminine power shit comes from in relationships where males shower females with gifts, maybe a ring, to gain affection and validation. However society is becoming conscious that this rarely equates to love and happiness with a fairytale ending. Usually the female gets fed up with receiving so much undeserved attention for being, well a female, and leaves the man breaking his heart, leaving his pocket book lighter. She is a human so she probably feels guilt, so this in a way hurts both parties, but the possibility of both finding hapiness again outweighs the pains.


This post is getting too long. I however do desire a sexually active relationship with a woman that I find attractive physically, spiritually, and mentally. True love does exist somewhere.

Mantus

Indeed, I can see why you might have that opinion. Since the pickup artists are not really relevant to this thread I won't go further into this. However I would very much enjoy discussing this topic with you and sharing with you any insight I might have. In a thread, over PM or though MSN.


Hey Greyeyes!

Being seduced, in my opinion, is surrendering, bypassing or shedding something in order to fulfil a need.

With the sexual process this often involves cultural rules and values. A woman bypassing her vows of marriage in order to sleep with her lover is an example.

With the religious process it may involve surrendering freedoms, shedding beliefs or bypassing instinctive urges.

I would say that people only see seduction as a negative thing when the benefits are perceived to be less then the gain. Since value is a subjective concept it’s hard to draw a fine line.

Cheers.

- Mantus