pan6467

A flat tax rate of 15% on all incomes between $100,000 and $5,000,000 with only 2 deductions, mortgages and 100% tuition for college students would be untaxed.

Under $100,000, same 2 deductions with a 10% tax.

Anything over $5,000,000 would be 25% with absolutely NO deductions.

The rates would be on ALL income from bonuses, to stock options, to income properties, to capital gains..... everything.

But I am not an economist, I think if our government truly wanted to leave a better country and not buy votes with tax cuts and truly looked at what they need..... they could find a solution that may hurt us, may mean sacrifice short term..... but long term will save this country and make it better.

I'm sorry but leaving a better country, a better possible future and a better life for my kids and knowing that my grandkids will have that oppurtunity also, means more to me than watching us destroy ourselves with greed and debts that will take generations to pay off.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

What is your solution to the above infrastructure problems?

How do you suggest we pay for them?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

I would have a national sales tax on non-food, non-medical goods (not services) and a national property tax on real estate. No income tax. I would set the rates to meet government spending.

My premise:

Not to tax income from labor, savings, investments.
Tax consumption.
Lower government spending.
Increased focus on local and state governments providing local services along with local and state taxes to pay for those services.
No social engeneering through federal tax policy.
No death taxes.
No preferences or government discrimination through tax policy; i.e. straight marrage vs. gay marrage, or having a mortgage vs. not having a mortgage.
Tax the underground economy. Crooks consume, but they don't file 1040's on their illegal income.
Fairly tax tourists, legal and illegal guest workers.

I would hav a provision for those unable to take care of themselves in the form of a tax rebate or transfer payments if they qualified.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

aceventura3

I can live with your proposal of generally flat taxes. The more complicated the tax code is the easier it is for the rich to game the system. You keep it simple which is good.

I don't support your deductions. Why a deduction for college, and not trade school? Why deduct trade school and not an apprentice program? Etc, Etc. Not everyone wants to go to college, and those who do, generally make more money in life anyway.

If I can deduct interest on a morgage, why not get a $500,000 mortgage, when I only need a $250,000 mortgage. Our current mortgage deduction causes inflation in the housing market. It makes it harder for people to "join the club" of home ownership. Why doesn't the single mom with two kids, renting a one bedroom apartment get a break?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

aceventura3

One of the reason higher education is so expensive is because of government subsidies and programs. Today if you don't qualify for one of those programs you get screwed. Or, if you live in California and want to go to school in Wisconsin, you get screwed. The theory is that the tax payers in Wisconson don't want to subsidize kids from California. Isn't that a great system? I would say not.

Every wonder why there has been no inovation in higher learning in the last 200 years? The schools have no real competition because of the subsidies. The system needs change. government subsidies hinder change, and does not encourage it.

Washington can not fix grade schools. It takes local people. No child left Behind is a failed attempt of a "one federal program" fits all solution. Why send money to Washington and then have Washington send it back? Send it back with conditions that are unreasonable?!? Perhaps a better way would be for local schools to be accountable and paid for at the local and state level. If you lower federal taxes more money would be available locally. It is better when people can see how their money is spent. Currently our federal government is like a black hole.


Almost al wealthy people at some point give back. Gates is doing it, Carnige did it. Others who were considered the wealthies in the world did it. I assume most people are good and that they want to leave a positive legacy.

If you have a deadly infection in your leg, would you cut it off to save your life? If so, I am sure your leg would consider you an evil "CEO".

When a CEO cuts jobs, it is usually because it is the last resort. CEO's are people too. Why would they go through the pain of firing people if they did not thing it was best for the company in the long run.

Look at GM. The company is close to going out of business. How would you fix it? How would you compete against Toyota? You would cut costs, and improve productivity, you would fire people who hindered the company's ability to compete. GM was not responsive and now the entire company is at risk, the lives of millions of people at risk, because they did not get the job done. Only the strong survive in business.

Let say it is oil, and the fact that we need a stable world oil market. Most people against the war, have not stopped using oil based products. Why not?

One war at a time. If we send a message in Iraq, perhaps we won't have to fight in other places. If we let others get away with "stuff", that sends the wrong message. Iran is watching, if we run, they will be emboldened as will many other nations. Being top dog, is not an easy position to be in. You can bet others want to be where we are.

I don't need defense from people who want to work, and take care of their families. I respect "illegals", and I would do exactly what they do to improve the opportunities for my children. Wouldn't you?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

kangaeru

Actually, GM has exported thousands and thousands of American jobs to Mexican plants, where the average wage is about 2 dollars an hour, compared with about ~20/hour per plant worker in detroit.

In between 1994 and 1998 when GM went from making all of their Suburbans in the US to about 84,000 in the US and 82,500 in Mexico, the average price of a Suburban increased from 24,500-27,00 to 29,000-34,000 dollars. Considering half of those Suburbans came at a labor cost 1/10th what the workers in Detroit got, shouldn't GM have saved a shit load of money? If Detroit labor costs are 1W (100% Wage = 20$/hour), then 82,500 x .10W = 8,250 . This means that GM can make 82,500 cars for the same LABOR PRICE (this is not overall price in parts of course) that would only build them 8,250 Suburbans in Detroit. So why did the costs go up SO much? Because it went into the pockets of the top 5% of management of the company.

Don't even get me started on the reason GM is doing badly--the fact that they got their ASSES handed to them by the fucking Japanese. Dude how many civics and camrys and accords do you see on the road? Lexus, Acura, and BMW have the top 5 selling luxury sedans in the US. No US company is in there anywhere.

Why?? Business is hard, you're right. It's hard to sell shitty cars when there are much better ones on the market. The only thing GM and Ford have going for them are the pick up and SUV markets. The daily commuter, or person earning 25-40g / year is going to buy a foreign car because they are higher quality. Nicer interiors, more options, better warranties, and they DONT BREAK AS MUCH.

You can buy a honda at 100k miles and rest assured that with oil changes, it will go past 200. My 95 Nissan Maxima GLE has 180k + on it and besides regular maintenance, has a perfectly good engine which is not going to die any time soon.

How do you explain that? GM on the verge of bankruptcy, raising prices of their cars even though their costs are dropping? The fact of the matter is that the gap between the rich and the poor is growing because of exploitative labor practices. Can't fuck over your workers? Go some place that can. Oh, and by the way we don't want to pay import / export taxes or be penalized in any way for this (HELLO!!!: NAFTA ANYBODY??)...so yeah..dub ya, you make that happen, we'll see you at the driving range tomorrow.

It's like those who know don't care, and those who don't know don't want to.

__________________
Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

aceventura3

If you could pay person x $2/hr. for the same quality and quantity that person y charges $20/hr for, why would you pay $20/hr.?

I don't remember exactly, but I read that each GM vehicle has about $1,700 in costs to cover retirees and other costs that others don't have.

When was the last time GM turned a profit? If they are saving money and raising prices, somthing ain't working right. the stockholders certainly have not been happy over the last quarter of a century.

GM execs make more than those at Ford, Toyota, BMW, Porsche, Nissan, Daimler-Chrysler??

Poor management and short-sighted unions.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

kangaeru

Because they're part of the American economy? Because they will buy cars, and groceries, and clothing, and support all other American industries? Corporations look for their executive fat cats to have astronomical paychecks, and if fucking over low level factory workers by outsourcing their jobs to Mexico is a way to do that, hell yeah. All they see is an increase in profit.

What, you think Americans are going to want to support the auto industry, which already has a lower quality reputation compared with Germany and Japan, after they've been cutting thousands of jobs and scaling back hundreds of thousands of pensions? Those CEO's do NOT need to make 25 million dollars a fucking year, on TOP of having the company pay for ALL their daily expenses (cell phone, plane services, etc). It's just not balanced--since when has 5 million not been enough?

No, it's comparable I'm sure--which makes it even worse. These greedy assholes don't need more money than God, but they think they do. Taking 30% salary cuts would save the company hundreds of millions of dollars a year which could be given back to their work force.

Imagine a work force where the average salary is 10$ hour / higher than anywhere else. Imagine the amount of people who would WANT work for you? You would be in a position to have a top of the line premium product because you could demand people ahdere to highest quality labor standards. Instead it's all a race to the bottom, and the less money you pay, the more unqualified people are going to fight for that job.

Agreed. So why do CEO's salaries still exponentially increase despite the company losing money? Because in the end it is greedy people steering the ship. They seek profit, and go about means to secure that end. In fact, if they were to worry about doing good business, making a good product, and taking care of their employees, they would find that profit would come naturally because their employees would want to work harder, would want to better the company, and this would show in the final product, which, in turn, people would want to buy more, leading to more profit.

A corrupt, bloated union and poor management don't help either, which are also very real problems, but the way GM has gone about addressing hasn't been to fix their management practices, and to make it their business to find qualified people, it's been to cut costs so they can continue operating as they are, in a broken manner, as long as possible.

They're throwing buckets of water overboard when they should be focusing on patching the hole.

__________________
Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

dksuddeth

Then I imagine that they shouldn't have promised those benefits to the employee when they hired them, right? But as it stands now, with the 'all business' instead of 'pro business' outlook, we, the taxpayer, are getting stuck paying those pension benefits instead of the company that promised them.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

aceventura3

There is a pension gurantee fund. If GM pension fund goes under that fund should pick-up the tab. Consumers will ultimately pay the cost because the remaining companies paying into the fund will have to pay more and they will pass it on to the consumer if they can.

Many companies are moving away from the defined benefit plans. I think IBM just made an announcement of that nature.

I agree that in GM's situation everything is pointing to poor management. But ironically for those who think management is wrong for cutting costs, they needed to do more of that.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

aceventura3

Our standard of living in this country is based on productivity. If we want to maintain our standard of living productivity has to improve, we have to continually produce more at lower costs. If we don't other countries will catch and pass us.

Rather than unions hindering productivity gains they should work with management as a team to make sure the USA is the best place in the world to employ labor.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

Blame labor, blame the unions BUT continuously stick up for the greedy fucks that make millions and millions, get tax cuts, while the rest of us poor schlobs have to work for shit wages, pay higher sales taxes, higher hidden taxes and higher property taxes.

Keep blaming labor and keep believing those CEO's are worth every penny.

Meanwhile, in reality because of the greed from those bastards you stick up for. We watch tax bases erode, we watch scandals, we watch our infrastructure degrade to a "D" grade (still haven't had a response to that from any of the right), and we watch as we go further and further into debt because those fucks refuse to sacrifice but demand everyone else does.

How many company CEO's last year demanded wage decreases or benefit decreases while taking raises?

How many Congressmen refused to set a minimum wage that people could live on, while barely passing a SS raise and telling the citizens we need to sacrifice, while their asses voted to give themselves raises? (Not just Fed. but in how many states did this happen also?)

My point is the CEO's need to take responsibility also and sacrifice. Otherwise, the people will tire of it and they will fight back.

Depressions effect everyone.....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kangaeru

And look where that's gotten us. Perhaps we should focus on education, public infrastructure, and things which are going to give back to our society as a whole. If we took the money dumped into the Iraq war and used it to rebuild improverished neighborhoods, build new schools, etc, in a Roosevelt style public works extravaganza, we would have a huge economic boom. Thousands of jobs created, better education for all Americans, and it might show minorities that they don't have to gang bang and run drugs to buy a BMW.

We still have the best technology of any other country in the world, arguably. I don't see why we have to focus on productivity--honestly, this country needs a more socialist approach. We have to aknowledge man's greed, and the fact that he will work hardest for his own gain rather than his neighbors, but we should also control key industries by the state and give the basics required to live to all citizens. But no, we focus on productivity, which leads to our public infratrustructures deteriorating.

How do you PROPOSE they actually do that? The US will never be the best place to employ labor because the costs of living here are so high. There is no way you can expect any American to live on $2 hour. Third world countries are fucking over their people by selling out to international corporations in exchange for sweet heart deals amongst the bureaucratic elite. The people of these nations get trampled and trodden over by these corporate machines.

If a GM Suburban plant moves to Mexico, and their workers strike, what can GM do?

a) They can hire more workers. There are plenty of desperate people with hungry families to feed who will jump at the chance to get a paying job of any kind to support their loved ones. Forget the fact that they're treated like slaves, they can't afford the convenience of having pride or dignity.

b) GM can just leave. The costs of building another plant in Panama or Chile might be cheaper, so they can always say to the Mexican workers, and to the government, "Fuck off, we'll go get in bed with your neighbor and economic rival then. We'll give them our business"

And this whole process is proliferated by American economic initiatives like NAFTA and CAFTA. It's nice being able to demand small countries open up their domestic markets to foreign competition, relinquish subsidies, and privatize their public services (water systems, electricity, oil and gas), so that power house American corporations can come in and jack the prices up on everything, and take out their domestic farming via US Agribusiness subsidies (up to 40% of their profits, in some cases), leaving them completely dependant on US corporations for labor demand, as well as dependant on us to export them everything they need--because after we crash their domestic economies, we jack all the prices up so that they can barely enough at the jobs we employ them at to make enough money to buy the products we sell them to keep their families alive.

Ace, so far, you have said NOTHING to back up the kind of economics you're talking about. Please explain to me how any the things I have just described to you are going to lead towards a prosperous American society in the next 20 years? How are peoples' lives going to be bettered?

I'm not a raging leftist, or a socialist, or any of that. I am a true neutral, and looking at things from my perspective, I see a lot of rampant abuses of power in this world, primarily stemming from the US.

Can you refute any of this with anything substantial? Can you reply with anything concrete that may change my mind? Can you explain how I'm completely wrong and the scenario I just described is not the situation third world workers are in?

Our system is inherently broken in unhealthy. You remember when capitalism failed? The Great Depression? When monopolies ruled the world and American workers were in the EXACT same situation I described in those third world countries? Capitalism needs competition and democracy to check itself against the abominable beast of human greed, and so far as I see it, those safe guards have failed.

As a result we have global monopolies who go around pillaging and looting the rest of the world, using efficiency and productivity as excuses to create an economy with rapidly increasing polarization of wealth and influence.

I really hope you can respond to this with something empirical, or else just stop wasting our time and admit you're rich, happy, and could really care less about what's happening to people outside the bubble of your own life.

__________________
Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

aceventura3

I actually blamed weak management.

Management gave too much to the unions. Management took what they thought was the easy road.

I acknowledge there is greed in management. Do you acknowledge greed in the unions?

There are failings on both sides, but ultimately management has to be acountable.

People often complain about management, but then do not offer alternatives. It is easy to say I will pay $20/hr. to an American when a non-American can do the exact same job for $2/hr. In reality the people who say that never would. Talk is talk.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

aceventura3

Look at it this way. If you spend 18 hours per day searching for food and 6 hours resting, all you do is eat and sleep. If you spend 9 hours per day searching for food, 6 resting, then you have 9 hours for other things. The quality of your life improved. That is what I mean by productivity gains.

Imoverished neighborhoods in this country are actually that bad compared to historical or international standards. Yes, we can do better, but individuals have to take some responsibility for their lot in life. Every child has access to education, food, and shelter. Anyone born in this country can go from poverty to becoming wealthy.

That's working really well for Cuba, would you agree? I won't.

Having the best technology today, means nothing tomorrow. We either move forward or we go backward. I get the feeling that some on this board think that once you reach a certain point, you can stop, rest, smell the roses. Thats o.k. for those who are satisfied with a deteriorating life-style. I just hope for the sake of our nation, these folks stay in the minority.

My father worked for Caterpillar, in a union as a machine operator, before retiring. There was a period when the company moved production of an important part overseas, in about 6 months they brought production of that part back to his department. Why? Because is department was better at making the part. The quality was better and they were more productive. Thats how it works. If you are better than your competition, you win.

Our lives will get better through education. Why should Americans die in coal mines. Why should Americans work 12 hour days making shoes? Why shouldn't Americans become scientist, computer programmers, inventors, engineers, managers of capital and resources. Give third world nations an opportunity to grow their economies with hard labor. Our focus should be a 'brain' labor.

Look at farming. Today, one man can do the work of hundreds of men. That's gains in productivity. The people who worked on farms started doing other work. Now people working in factories don't have to, they need to do other work. The kind of work that requires knowledge, creativity, initiative...,isn't that our goal?

Do you have an open mind? If you do I'll keep trying.

The Great Depression was the result of government's attempts at restricting free trade.

Big government and government interference in free markets hurts our system. Why has education gotten worse over the years with more and more government involvment?

Pillaging and looting of the world occured mostly during the monarchies of western europe. In capitalist systems, with free markets, people and nations get paid.

I started life lower middle class. Parents got divorced when I was 10. There were times when my dad got laid-off of his union job and we used food stamps. We rented and moved almost every year. I worked hard in school, worked part-time jobs, saved money, paid for college, worked hard in the corporate world, saved, bought a home, continued my education, got promotions and raises, saved, and bought my business with my life savings. Now I am working harder than ever before. If you think I am greedy because I worked hard and made sacrifices, so be it.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

I have often posted unions were a problem, but in the 80's that changed and management has since become the greedy partner.

Ultimately, it is not management nor unions that are responsible but both. Both in that if management has gotten so strong and greedy the union needs to protect the worker and strike...... or if the union has become to strong management needs to demand restructuring of the union.

The issue is right now the unions are far too scared to strike for fear their jobs will be gone. Thus management has more control than ever.

Go ahead take every factory overseas and pay all the workers $2. You know what, FUCK THE BLACKMAIL, DO IT!!!!!!! You can't because we are the largest market and in doing that you will effectively destroy yourself and everyone else. It's why Honda, Nissan, Toyota and so on built factories here and are paying in wages and benefits almost better if not better than Ford, GM, and so on. (I know this for fact because I have relatives working at both GM in Ontario, Ohio and at Honda, Marysville.) The Japanese car companies are thriving not necessarily because of better product but because of the way management and the workers work together.

Another issue is healthcare. If healthcare wasn't so out of control and we actually fixed the fucking system instead of letting it continue to spiral, more companies like GM would be financially solvent.

It's not management's fault that healthcare is spiraling, it is not that they gave away too much. It is not the unions fault healthcare is spiraling and they only took as much as management would give them. It is the fucking greed of the healthcare industry and it has been destroying us and will continue to do so.

But there are ways to stop healthcare without government interference. You take GM, Ford, and the largest companies and they tell the healthcare industry "we will only pay this for this amount of coverage.... you charge more screw you we'll find someone else."

The problem there is that the industry says "no screw you noone will match you" and management of those companies are looking for ways to cut all they can (except at upper management levels) and so management instead of being firm with Healthcare, says, "OK.... it's all the retirees and workers who won't budge and it's their fault. We'll match pay your premiums."

Overall, if either of the sides (Healthcare, management, the workers, government (Local, State and FED.), truly wants to allow the US to become strong and financially and infrastructurally healthy, all sides need to work towards that goal and make sacrifices.

Sad thing is, everyone is so scared and so greedy and so protective of their own little niche they refuse to work together and instead blame each other for the misery of all.

And the GOP (Federally) has taken the side that they refuse to do anything.... which is basically the same as saying "I have treatable cancer, but I am scared to have treatment ...it'll cure itself."

The DEMS (Federally) have no true selling points because they lack any insight and true leadership on the issue.

Healthcare doesn't care because they are getting what they demand and they don't truly care what it costs.

Management doesn't care because they make their millions and have their golden parachutes.

The workers have lost care because they are just trying to survive.

And State and Local governments do what they can but they can't truly do much because they lack the funds.

It's time for change and time to do better or we will truly be done. Every side is being a fucking spoiled brat over the matter (some worse than others as some are just trying to protect what they do have).

One group can't change it, 2 groups may be able to start the ball rolling and we'll survive for a little longer, but it takes each of those groups to go to the table and figure out a way to not just survive but to become truly healthy again.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

It is becoming more and more clear to me what a friend at college has been saying.

The government doesn't know or care or want to fix the problem, if either party made avenues to fix it, they would lose voters because we're all too greedy, too scared and or feel too secure to want to truly sacrifice. So whenever something bad arises about the economy or a large industry, something comes out about the war and the powers in the government start arguing over those issues and the economy gets shoved aside and forgotten.

GM announces it's close to bankruptcy = Bush's wiretaps/mail openings.

The only industry that gets it and deservedly so is Big Oil and that is only because the people are so vocal about it ad it effects everyone's wallet.

But healthcare..... nope

Saving the auto industry ..... nope

the infrastructure..... nope

and so on.

I am starting to see his point as very legitimate. That perhaps the war isn't for oil or terrorism but designed to keep focus off the true problems we really have. It's an expensive excursion but if used the right way will get the other sides to try to work together without having to use the government as it's savior. OR it could totally backfire and truly destroy us (our economy and government) much, much faster.

There is merit but I don't know if I agree with all of it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

We agree on a few points, but in some areas I don't think you understand why management makes the decisions they do.

Nissan, Toyota, BMW, etc, build factors here because it makes them money. When they make the decision they look at labor costs, certainly. but the also look at proximity to their market (or shipping costs), proximity to suppliers, currency exchange rates, tax rates, cost of land, cost of construction, pool of available and trainable labor, political stability in an area, etc, etc, etc.

It may be surprising but in some cases it makes sense to move jobs here, and in other cases move jobs overseas. It ain't personal, its business. People in management get paid to make money, thats the job. Why do you get upset when they do their job. Teachers get paid to teach. Singers get paid to sing. Your religious leader gets paid to give religious guidence. Etc, Etc.

We have the best health care system in the world. People live longer today than in anyother time in history. Can it be better? Yes. Is it broke? No.
How would I improve it? I'll get back to you on that.

I agree.

Prescription Drug Plan for seniors. Is that nothing? Or, do we just not give the GOP credit for it. Plan is not perfect, but do you acknowledge the attempt?

No Child Left Behind. Is that nothing? Again, not perfect but do you acknowledge the attempt?

When Bradley from New York ran for president I supported him. I think he was too middle of the road for the democratic base. We need to fix or primary system. We get extremists from both parties.

True of some, not all. Most managers are hard working, caring people, just like you.

Most people are doing better than just surviving.

Money is not always the answer to a problem.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

Not true, having been in management and an owner of a business, I know what needs to be done. But there is a difference between saying " Ok, don't touch my millions upon millions but let's cut jobs, destroy a city's economy and we'll be ok."

It's wrong and in the lonbg run the greed will destroy the company. They are becoming far too top heavy with too many greedy CEO's.

Gee, wouldn't that apply to GM, Ford and other companies? Guess not. Again, management is too greedy, where unions once were too destructive management has become as destructive if not moreso now.

I truly disagree with this. Yes, people are paid for their professions but look at the companies and look at the DEBT they have and how much the CEO's make while blaming labor costs and laying off, firing or just shipping jobs overseas.

If you have a CEO making with perks $10,000,000 and you have 10,000 employees, does it make sense to cut their on average $15 and hour and destroy the tax base to save money when the CEO himself could take a pay cut until the company shows true profit and has kept the infrastructure and city that needs them in good shape?

Guess not, by what you say it's "Fuck the worker, the CEO deserves everything he gets because he makes us more more".... when the same amount of money could be made by cutting his wages and making him actually work to better the company, not band aid it, rape another country's labor and destroy a community and 1000's of lives.


I didn't say we didn't have the best. But it is increasingly becoming unaffordable and we'll see if people truly live longer when the boomers start to age.

There's many factors besides healthcare that are allowing us to live longer.



The prescription drug plan was to say they tried something. The President, Congress and the Pharmaceuticals were actually put under pressure to do something or watch as more meds were "illegally brought over from Canada, Mexico, the internet and so on. Will it be successful? Time will tell.

If it is good, if it becomes like the "No Child Left Behind" where the GOP promises one thing then cuts funding and starts talking how it was a bad idea without even giving it a chance to take effect..... then no, they didn't do anything but make matters worse.

The attempt was never given a chance, from the second it was written the GOP decried it and cut funding almost immediately. And has been cutting it ever since, including College grants, loans and financial aid to those who need it most.

So no, it wasn't a true attempt.



Bradley was a good man, he lacked charisma and unfortunately was never given a true chance, much like Kemp on the GOP side. Moderates this day and age do not get the nod or the attention for fear it may incur change and the parties would lose their power.


Most Middle and lower front line management is. And most upper level executives in smaller companies are. However, the true upper management of the bigger companies have lost touch with America, they don't see any problems because they make their money and to them closing down a factory and shipping it overseas just saves their salaries and looks good to the board.... As you keep pointing out..... However they don't give a shit what that closing has done to the community or the people affected.

Look at Canton... They made Hoover, there was a great connection there. Maytag came in closed them down now, these people who bought Hoovers are going to go and buy Dirt Devils or Eurekas and will not buy anything by Maytag.

Nor did those closings save Maytag, and as Maytag is losing money and having to sell everything off, the CEO and upper management's salaries and perks go untouched.

So there is one case out of many where your argument that CEO's make money and deserve the pay, falls apart.


How do you figure when they are heavily indebt and in most cases a paycheck away from missing house and car payments. They fear to make noise to organize and unionize and speak out, for fear what little they do have will be taken away as the company says," FUCK YOU, we'll rape Taiwan and Indonesia and Mexico of their labor and still make more."

Eventually, you get nothing here but shit jobs for shit wages with everyone heavily indebt. But if we ever stopped the flow of credit (we don't even have to collect just stop the credit) the economy would plunge to levels this country has never seen.

Ever wonder why opr how college kids get $1000's in credit cards? Or why someone making $12,000 can have a $5,000 limit? Not because they have good credit, it's because we need everyone to spend spend spend to feed this monster. The second we don't spend we die.

Don't you wonder why the refusal of interest rates is so big? It's because if they started going up, people would be in very bad shape and wouldn't be able to feed the monster.

They are living on credit and when the credit comes due, they won't even be surviving.


True, wanting to actually correct the problems and build a better society needs to be done with not just money but with a true desire on all sides to work together.

Money, right now is desperately needed and is the solution short term. As pointed out above, in the ASCE report, you work on the infrastructure (which requires money to be spent), and you make new jobs, increase tax bases, increase wages and decrease the debts people have, and the country becomes better in many ways.

Unfortunately, it's not that way right now. And we don't have much time to change it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

Looks like we could go on forever (and it is very tempting to rebut your latest points, but I going to spend some time being a blind, greedy, heartless... whatever you said in one of your posts).

I think I understand our fundamental differences. I generally think America is a great country and that people, rich and poor, are generally good and will do what is right if given a fair opportunity. We have problems, we will never achieve perfection but we try. It may not be fair for me to speak for you, but you seem to think government needs to force people to do what is right, and that gennerally the things that are wrong with this country are going to lead to its end.

Seems like you view the cup as half empty and I see it as half full.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

I have just one rebuttal.

No, I don't think government has to force people to do what is right. As I stated ALL sides (Management, Healthcare, Labor, and government on all levels) have to be willing to make sacrifices and do what is best for the country to save our society.

Right now I don't see that, what I see is everyone worried more about saving themselves than society. It is human nature, but somewhere down the road it will be too late. That point is coming fast. I do believe that government's job is to protect it's people, part of that protection requires protecting the society it has built. Thus, government needs to start the talks and progress as mediator to save society.

If we can save our industries, rebuild the infrastructure and lower healthcare prices then society will take care of itself and government can back away. But right now, we need a strong government that is willing to get involved and begin the processes. That means investing in the infrastructure, which again, companies are not doing by themselves. It takes money to do that and when the companies are working to save their own asses, and workers are just trying to stay afloat, government has to be the impetus to get things started.

Since local and states don't have the money, it is the Federal government that has to start the ball rolling. Until we address the infrastructure and put the money into rebuilding the country, we will continue or decline into greed, into poverty, into eventual total decay.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"