nofnway

So if the Dems want to wrangle the pendulum to their sided does it not seem like they need to pull some of those middle of the roaders, some of whom voted republican in the last election, to his side?

According to Dean
"You think people can work all day and then pick up their kids at child care or wherever and get home and still manage to sandwich in an eight-hour vote? Well Republicans, I guess can do that. Because a lot of them have never made an honest living in their lives."

I'm leaning.....


Dean goes on
""The republicans are all about suppressing votes. Two voting machines if you live in a black district, 10 voting machines if you live in a white district."


Aren't elections put on by local officials?...aren't black districts generally democrats?

anyway still leaning...


and finally to paraphrase Dean

"I hate republicans"


Ooops lost me.





Well, not me really but how are you going to catch any wobblers like that?
Maybe there is some part of the big picture I'm not seeing here......

Hate Dean=love Hillary?

Crazy like a fox

__________________
"Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind"
Leonardo Da Vinci

tecoyah

I see no room for debate here......only flame induced, banter of left vs. right.


I will watch the next few replys, just to be fair.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

nofnway

Allow me to reframe the Question...in this way.

If the Chair of the DNC is supposed to raise money and win converts Is Howard Dean the guy You really want.

John Kerry wants to claim the middle, Hillary is working to the middle every time I hear her these days......

How does Dean help recapture the middle ground? Or Do the dems need to?

__________________
"Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind"
Leonardo Da Vinci

tecoyah

Much better

Please continue

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Ustwo

The swing voters are not paying attention right now, its 2005 not 2007. As such Dean is just there to keep the pissed off left happy as they are the only ones who would be paying attention to the DNC head anyways. Well that and Repubicans who like to point out what stupid thing Dean said today, but they aren't going to switch sides so are not important to the DNC.

As the election approaches, you can be sure that the wild hate talk will get toned down.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pan6467

Right now is a jard time for the Dem. party and Dean's job is to get attention to the party. Unfortunately, it would seem he's taking a very negative approach at trying to show the differences between parties. People (the vast majority) pay very little attention to politics (especially in off years) and even on this board will talk about how the parties are more or less the same.

This is not to flame but from my perspective only.... (so it may or may not be fact as my viewpoint is very biased and slanted)...... The GOP for years goes on the personal and attacks far far worse than Dems can. Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Coulter and so on slam every day, while the Dems. even with facts end up making themselves look bad when they try anything.

What the Dems need is someone to take the high ground and try to set a positive difference, but when they try that again, Limbaugh, and crew tear them to shreds. It's just the tone and feel in the country right now, very negative and negativity seems to sell, people aren't buying anything positive. The GOP are far better at the mudslinging and dirty politics (again, my opinion).

What the Dems. need to do is be positive, I said this about Kerry, and ignore the mud and try to take the higher ground. However, when they do, they get slammed for looking weak. People say there is virtue in taking the higher ground but that doesn't seem to be the case, it comes out looking weak and the attacks from the other side make them look worse. Unfortunately, what the Dems. don't realize is long term the higher ground would eventually come out on top.

My prediction:

Dean isn't the man to lead the Dem party and this is just a way for some of those in power to destroy him because he is not a career polished politician, the stress and anxiety will get to him he'll keep being told to be over-the-top and do so (because he is a soldier) and he'll continue to look like a fool, saying very stupid things and I think there are some that would want him to blow the '06 election to hell. So that in'07/'08 a more "moderate" will come in and sound far more sane and "bring respect back" thereby ensuring their nomination.

What I see from Dems leaders right now is a desire to blow '06 (and in my mind they could maybe win congress back in'06 or narrow the gap if they wanted to), then blame Dean.

What they are also hoping for is a severe Bush and GOP breakdown between '07 and '08.

Again, that is not a way to run a party that truly wants to win or one that feels like they have a chance to win on their merits and platform alone.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Seaver

Having independant conservatives speak so untactfully on their viewpoint is much different than the head of the Democratic Party speaking that way. I'm not defending Coulter or Limbaugh, I hate them as much as you do. But that's like saying the President of the US can say all French people are gay, justifying it because some farmer in Canada said it first.

I dont know what Dean is doing. Either it's genious getting the entire Democratic factions together in a united front, or he's so pissed about the last two elections that he's lost his sense of reality. I doubt it's the first, because the Dems were pretty united against Bush last time and they still lost. Instead of reaching accross to the middle to pull the swing voters he is putting his back against the wall and leaving a void there. Even with all the Republicans screwing up politically this is a BAD decision because there's no real second option when you radicalize your party.

Elphaba

Dean was preaching to the choir (fellow dems) and I suspect he was throwing out cheap punchlines knowing they would be positively received.

I have no use for this type of thing from either party. I believe Dean has cheapened the position of the DNC with that bit of theatrics.

jorgelito

So, to answer the original question:

The sly fox outsmarted himself and handed a gift to the Republicans (a gift they arguably DO NOT need *wince*). But then again, it is 2005 and people these days have short memories.

If Dean had done this in 2007, I believe it would have been the nail in the coffin that had already been lowered and people with shovels starting to throw dirt on it.

The Dems have their work cut out for them: they owe it to themselves and to America to get their act together. Simailarly, The Republicans shouldn't sit too smugly either. Both parties should tighten up and consolidate their "forces" and present to America a solid platform. Where are we headed? What direction will they take this country if at the helm for another 4 years?

Locobot

Um, this was Kerry's strategy, to stay positive, didn't work. Meanwhile Bush had his swiftboat hatchet men attacking Kerry's character. No one was "turned off" by Bush's negative attacks.

I like Dean and the way he was able to raise money was novel, no special interests. It's the job of the DNC chairperson to make provocative statements about the opposition. Judging by the existance of this thread in 2005 Dean is doing a fantastic job.

To paraphrase Bush: "I'm a closet Nazi and I fuck little boys"
oops lost my vote

Ustwo

If by fantastic you mean fantastic for the republicans I agree.

I hope he gets even more fantastic come 2007.

You were quick to point out the swiftboat adds but I notice you failed to mention the moveon adds, and others like it, and then we have Mr Moore and his propaganda film being shown in most theaters in the country. I will also ask you to recall why we started to call him Jhon 'F-ing' Kerry. Another possitive message of his.

As long as the democrats focus on why the public should hate republicans with no reason to like demcrats you can expect more 2000-2002-2004's.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mantus

For me it was never an issue of whether Kerry had anything to offer but that he wasn't Bush. If you are running a business and an employ f--ks up - on multiple ocasions, then lies to cover things up and then refuses to take responsibility - you shouldn't hire him for another contract. If the administration wasn't going to to hold it's accountable for its mistakes then I'll do the cervice for them.

I think allot of people followed this logic. I think Kerry believed in it. We thought Bush would dig his own grave. We thought wrong.

alansmithee

The only problem is that a)many people have different ideas about what constitutes bad job performance and b) it doesn't matter how bad jim screws up in his job if you think that joe is gonna be worse. Kerry expected the Dem view of Bush's job performance to be enough. And this mentality seems to be plaguing the Democratic party at this time-they propose nothing of their own, but simply work to obstruct and tear down whatever Republicans try to do.

One thing I find funny is that I think that the Republicans have made some serious strategic errors that the Dems could capitalize off of if they could get better organized. The Republicans have picked two issues to raise to nat'l prominance that otherwise might not have gotten the same attention(Schiavo and judicial filibusters) and failed in both. I see both of these as lose-lose actions for the Republicans-they alienated some of the more leftist/centrist voters by giving the impression of going to far, yet also angered the heavily conservative voters by not going far enough and backing down. But fortunately, the Dems have not shown any alternate position whatsoever and have merely been anti-Republican without being pro-anything so these problems will probably not come into play.

As for Dean, he (like many politicians forced on a national stage perhaps too early) has become a caricature of his presidential run image, and has gone beyond the ability to do good for his party IMO. What few truly undecided voters there might be (and I think this group is even smaller than polls always say it is) are totally alienated by his rediculous comments, and are driven to the more moderate-seeming Republicans. And he doesn't mobilize his base in the same way a similar positioned Republican would because the Dem base generally has a worse voting record (in actual turnout) that does the similar Republican base.

trickyy

i saw the speech that these quotes came from. my impression was that he was half-joking about the republicans never working. he had just said that election day should be a day when people are not busy with work, daycare, etc. and are able to vote.

(i could have sworn he said they've never done an "honest day's work" in their lives, which is a little different than what was posted. it suggests a life of entitlement rather than scheming.)

i don't mind his independent approach to things. he could tone it down a bit...then again very few of you would have heard about this speech if he had. he also mentioned a few *new* ideas (i was surprised) and said he didn't want to spend too much time talking about bush's/delay's problems. i guess the few times he drifted into "criticism," it was enough to make the newspaper. if you want to watch it, his part relatively short: rtsp://video.c-span.org/15days/e0602...nhuffington.rm or www.cspan.org

later john edwards came out. boooorrringg! i just don't see edwards/kerry/hillary beating mccain. i hear a lot about hillary going for it, but i don't hear that she's accomplished anything interesting lately. for some reason i find dean more interesting than most of the likely dem candidates. and mccain's another maverick of sorts...can't dislike the guy. if the republicans don't poop on him again, he will go far.

Locobot

No, that's not what I mean.
I'm not exactly sure what made you start calling him John Fucking Kerry (I like the ring of it!). I think you're either refering to the Rolling Stone interview early in the campaign where Kerry dropped a few f-bombs (I'm not sure I ever read it) or when he was "caught" with his mic still on calling the republicans "scumbags" or something to that effect and then refused to apologize. The second example was probably the strongest moment in Kerry's campaign, and the moment where I felt the strongest support for him as a candidate. It was the only moment where he showed he actually had the cajones to be president.

Dude, Michael Moore endorsed Wesley Clark. If anything Kerry made a mistake in distancing himself and his campaign so drastically from the allegations in Fahrenheit.