NCB

At what point does the ACLU become an anti-American org? I'd love to hear some of y'alls opinion on this, but please, no knee jerk, party line rhetoric. For Heaven's sake, it's the Boy Scouts!!


BSA drops charters with thousands of public campuses to avoid lawsuits

The Boy Scouts of America is pulling the charters of thousands of scouting units from public schools in an effort to spare them from lawsuits threatened by the American Civil Liberties Union.

In a letter sent to the BSA last month, the ACLU vowed to take legal action against public schools and other taxpayer-funded governmental agencies that charter Scout groups, claiming their sponsorship amounts to religious discrimination and violates the separation of church and state.

The ACLU specifically takes issue with the Scouts' pledge of allegiance to God and country and the organization's prohibition of homosexuals as scout masters

Article here

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Coppertop

This is nothing new, the ACLU has been facing off against BSA for some time now.
Well that certainly puts the article in perspective.

NCB

I'm not asking about the source (yes, it's biased), I'm asking about the ACLUs war against the BSA. Is that a good thing for America?

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Willravel

I don't agree with the ACLU in this, but I kinda support them in this just beacause a gay scoutmaster is only going to take advantage of the little boys if he is a pedafile. So, the boyscouts should not hire pedafile scoutleaders. The gay thing shouldn't be an issue. As far as the pledge, are the kids being forced to say the pledge? If thay are being forced, then it's wrong and pretty ironic. If they aren't being forced, then it wouldn't matter either way.

The problem? The boyscouts is an excelent place to teach young men about responsibility, comrodary, honor, and loyalty; all things vital to America. The serveice they provide is invaluable. All the ACLU did here was threaten to bankrupt the BSA, instead of trying to constructively remedy the situation. Suddenly they go from freedom fighters to bullys. They didn't protect anyones civili liberties in this, all they did was put those boys back into unstimulating environments.

raveneye

It's not just the ACLU that's threatening the Scouts, it's the ACLU and the courts.

The courts, at least recently, have been deciding in favor of the ACLU on this issue.

For example, in Portland Oregon recently,

So it seems that if the ACLU is anti-American, then the Oregon Court of Appeals is anti-American also.

My opinion: neither are.

Coppertop

I would say it is neither good nor bad, it just is. But that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

Personally I could care less as I am not affiliated with either organization. Politically I wish the ACLU success if only to piss off the people at WND, who seem to be fearmongering. But I'm an ass that way sometimes.

Tophat665

I'm sort of with Coppertop on this. Anything that pisses off the right wing is OK in my book.'

However....

BSA discriminates against gays. Period. They have been told that they can't, but replied that they were a private institution and they could do as they damned well please. This is absolutely true. However, it seems to me tho be perfectly fair to then exclude them from schools. Certainly the state owes it to parents to prevent a group from preaching bigotry to their children in the context of education. (Unless, of course, the parents send their kid to a religious school, in which case teaching intolerance is perfectly fine. Feh.)

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NCB

But it's ok to have school funded gay and lesbian club in the schools?

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shakran

Well, when I was in school there was a GLB alliance (basically the same thing as a gay/lesbian club, but with "bisexual" added on), and ANYONE was allowed to be a member. Even the straight kids. No straight kids WERE members, but they were not forbidden or even discouraged from joining. So there was nothing wrong with them. Now, if the club decided that ONLY gays were allowed in it, THEN there'd be a problem.

Tophat has hit it on the head. BSA IS a private organization and as such they're allowed to discriminate against anyone they want to. However, if they choose to discriminate, they should not expect government handouts. If they want the money that bad, they should quit being assholes to the homosexuals.

MoonDog

Well, I'm a former Eagle Scout, so I get upset emotionally when the ACLU goes after the BSA, but intellectually, I understand that the BSA can't have it both ways. They WANT to be a private organization so they don't have to adhere to anti-discrimination law, but at the same time they WANT to be allowed access to public facilities for meeting space, even though those facilities can't be used for anti-discriminatory purposes.

Sorry, but at some point they are going to have to realize that homosexuals can be good leaders, can be good Scouts, and - omygod! - aren't automatically a pedophile.

guy44

shakran and MoonDog have this one totally, completely right. All I'll add is that the clubs in school cannot discriminate - anyone can join any club. The moment the Boy Scouts no longer discriminate against gays and no longer require members to take oaths of a particular religion and whatnot, I'd welcome them into the school grounds with open arms.

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matthew330

Homosexuals are prohibited from being scoutmasters, not members. Why is it that this phenomena is reality, or should be? If BSA were truly discriminating, then the gay youth of america would be excluded from joining, but they aren't. The fact of the matter is, sexuality shouldn't be an issue for members of the boy scouts. They are simply young people growing up and learning lessons **enter the flamer.

They aren't banned from being youth leaders because of their sexual preference, they are banned because there sexual preference injects itself into every nonsexual aspect of their lives. You may take some offense to that, but if it weren't true, would ones sexuality ever have become an issue here? Absolutely not. Learning about ones sexuality during the formative years (i.e. - the BSA years), is tough enough.

Shakran, were straight people allowed to be GLB masters, so to speak? If they weren't was that a problem for you? Not to mention this is a club focused on ones sexuality. If a young person decides he'd like to be a part, more power to him, but sexuality should not be forced on anyone that age. If a grown man is incapable of leading young people in a social club (which has NOTHING to do with ones sexuality), without revealing his sexual preference, then he shouldn't be leading them in the first place.

Tophat665

NCB,
BSA is fundamentally a Christian organization. Leaving aside the homophobia, they are one of the really good ones. But, being a Christian organization, they are a religious organization. Separation of Church and state can be an issue here if they prosthyletze. Aside from being discriminatory, and despite any BS protestations, their stand on homosexuality is a religious one. By inculcating that in their members, who, in theory, are below the age of consent and, therefore, cannot have a legally informed opinion, prosthyletization is exactly what they are doing.

Unfortunately, this gets into murky water. No one gives a good goddamn if they teach kids to be upstanding citizens because it's the Christian thing to do. Render unto Ceasar and all. No one cares that they teach kids teamwork because it's the Christian thing to do (it is). No one cares that they teach kids self reliance because it's the Christian thing to do (it's not). No one cares that they're teach kid to be "Helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, thrifty, brave, clean" and, from my days in scouts, even "reverent" was couched in a sort of an AA kind of a way - doesn't matter what you believe so long as you believe in somthing greater than yourself - so not necessarily a problem there. Sure, they're teaching those values for Christian reasons, but they are values that amount to what good parenting results in anyway.

Teaching kids to hate, though, that people care about. Even those who agree with their bigotry in the particular ought to take a step back and replace "Gay" with "Left Handed" or "Black" or "Red Haired" to pick some other biologically determined factors, and see that they would care about it in that case. (Judas was a redhead!)

So, in addition to equal protection problems, there are separation of church and state problems.

Homosexual oriented groups at schools have neither of those problems.

If you're ticked off that your tax dollar is going to fund them, pay me back my money that was used in invading Iraq and then you will have a leg to stand on.

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guy44

right, matthew. A gay man or woman is solely defined by his or her sexuality. Every aspect of their lives is what? Tainted?

Gay scout leaders never wanted to discuss sexuality, homosexuality, or heterosexuality in the boy scouts any more than straight ones did. They just were gay. Believe it or not, gay people aren't like Big Gay Al. I bet you know or at least met a bunch of people that you had NO idea were gay. The reason one's sexuality is at issue here is because the BSA makes it one, NOT because the prospective gay scout members did. In fact, most of these cases had to do with scout masters who did a great job for years before others even found out that they were gay, and who were then summarily dismissed. I don't know why you seem to think that gay scout masters spend all their time with the little scouts telling them about what it is like banging guys.

The Scouts are discriminatory, which is why the ACLU and the courts have held that they cannot use public space like schools as meeting places.

Oh, and I know many straight people who are very prominent in GLBT groups or were in high school.

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Tophat665

So Scoutmasters should be non-dating Bachelors? Certainly being married is a clear statement of the scountmaster's sexual preference.

I know that verges on reductio ad absurdum, but roll it over in your head a few times. Sexuality is biological. One has not got a choice in the matter. Oh sure, one can exercise their will and submerge their sexuality, but should they have to if they are reasonably discreet about it? And, by discreet, I mean having sex in private, not avoiding showing their partner some affection in public.

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Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

jonjon42

I think moondog said it best, they can't both be a private organization that discriminates and be able to set up scout groups in public schools.
simple as that.
we're not saying they are bad, but they need to make a choice.

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A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

matthew330

"I bet you know or at least met a bunch of people that you had NO idea were gay." I'm sure i have too, and i'm sure these people would have no problems being scoutmasters. Unless as Tophat suggests, they are bringing their dates to scout meetings (and even if they did it'd be completly unnecessary to introduce them as "my friend that i'm fucking"). At some point your "prospective gay scoutmasters" are the ones who made it an issue. Otherwise, like i said, it never would have been one. I never suggested gay men spend all their time talking about what it's like "banging" other men, and i never argued ones sexuality is not biological.

And the answer to your question tophat ( but should they have to pay if they are reasonably discreet about it?) is , no. How difficult is it to be discreet about your sexuality? If an adult is incapable of being "reasonably discreet", is it a biological problem, or a maladjusted, incapable of coming to terms with yourself problem. There is a reality to your sterotypical "gay" adult. I'm sure you can come up with your own sterotypes. Are all these stereotypes, in your words "biological", or is the biological influence STRICTLY limited to sexual preference?

guy44

matthew, you never explained how exactly the gay scout masters are the ones making this an issue. You just assert it. They aren't - it is the BSA that makes an issue out of the sexual orientation of its scout masters.

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lindseylatch

It isn't difficult at all to be discreet about your sexuality...90% of gay men and 92% of gay women do it each and every day...Those stereotypes that you see on shows like "Will & Grace" are based on 10% of the gay population. They happen to be the loudest and the showyest, so you can see how they would end up as the stereotype. However, like many stereotypes, it's incorrect.

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-Voltaire

matthew330

How does he BSA know their sexual orientation?

guy44

From an amici brief in a BSA gay discrimination case:


James never made an issue out of his homosexuality. The BSA had no idea he was gay and accepted him as a scout master for 16 months. Only when they found out - not because he brought it up at BSA meetings or with BSA members or with anything to do with the BSA - did they kick him out. The BSA was the one who "made it an issue."

Link.

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matthew330

"It isn't difficult at all to be discreet about your sexuality...90% of gay men and 92% of gay women do it each and every day...Those stereotypes that you see on shows like "Will & Grace" are based on 10% of the gay population. They happen to be the loudest and the showyest, so you can see how they would end up as the stereotype. However, like many stereotypes, it's incorrect."

Well then 90% of the gay population should have no trouble being scoutmasters. I live in downtown baltimore, my "gay experiences" are not limited to Will and Grace. BTW, stereotypes are never "incorrect", they aren't simply pulled out of your ass. You don't have to be afraid of them. The degree to which they are "applicable" is debatable, but in this case, like i said, i'm from downtown baltimore. I'm not naieve, and as cliche'ed as it might sound, i have friends that are.....

guy44

I think the point lindseylatch is trying to make, although I don't want to misrepresent her argument, is that the gay population DOESN'T have trouble being scoutmasters. It is only the BSA that has trouble with the fact that they are gay if they find out that creates a problem.

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shakran

So it's OK to discriminate against a group, as long as you don't discriminate against all ages of that group. Gotcha.

No, they are banned because bigoted idiots THINK their sexual preference injects itself into every nonsexual aspect of their lives.

That's frankly a stupid statement that you can't possibly back up. You're acting like they eat differently, work differently, and do everything differently because of their homosexuality. That's crap. What's next, black people can't do long division without the answer being influenced by African traditions?

There's no difference between a gay and a straight guy except for his sexual preference. Plenty of gay people can be good leaders, while plenty of straight people can be bad leaders. Need I remind you that not one of the Catholic priests who molested young boys was (openly, anyway) gay?


So what you're saying is, if a bigoted idiot makes sexuality an issue, it's the fault of the person the bigoted idiot has a problem with. That really doesn't make any sense.


If you mean faculty advisors (all clubs had to have one) the guy who was the faculty advisor was married to a woman, so I'd say yes.

If you mean president of the club or whatever, yes they were, if they were members of the club, which as I said before there weren't any straight members of the club.



So lemme get this straight. If a BSA leader reveals his sexual preference, he has to be kicked out. By your logic if a straight BSA leader makes a comment about a cute woman, or shows up with his wife, therefore confirming his sexual orientation, he also must be kicked out.

What you're really saying is that you don't like gay people and you want to shove them under the rug. But to assuage your guilty conscious, you say we'll allow the gay children to be with the rest of society. Only when they grow up will they be ostracized.

Same thing used to happen before the civil rights movement. It was OK for white kids to play with "that darling little black boy" but as soon as the kid grew up he became the "filthy nigger."


As I've said before, our society congratulates itself because it now finds prejudicial behavior toward blacks to be offensive, but in reality it deserves no congratulations. It's simply shifted its discrimination from black people to gay people. Our society is every bit as bigoted and hateful as it was in the 1950's, we're just being bigoted and hateful to a less politically-incorrect group.

host

I am quoting the first sentence that NCB posted in the thread starter, because
I suspect that this is the issue that is the true agenda of this thread, and that the BSA is simply the "hot button" issue chosen by NCB to malign and further discredit the ACLU.

I submit my belief that the ACLU is as American as apple pie, more importantly, it is as American as the Constitution of The United States. The attorneys and other Americans who support the ACLU and it's efforts to hold government and others who act unconstitutionally, accountable, via local and federal courts that must rule within the framework of the provisions of said constitution. I deplore the politics of former Georgia congressman Bob Barr, but I laud him for the recent work he has done in support of the ACLU.

The following can happen because of work the ACLU has done to preserve all of our right to assemble and to exercise free speech. The result is messy, I object to the tactics and to the message, but without the ACLU, it might not
be allowed to happen, and that would be un-American:
NCB, if you got your wish.......and the ACLU ceased to exist, what alternative do you see doing the work of defending all of our constitutional rights, or......
do you see this work as even necessary ? Are you satisfied that our national political leaders and their appointees to sensitive oversight positions (Ashcroft and now, Gonzales) are faithfully executing the oaths that they took to "preserve and protect the consitution". Please do not paint the ACLU as "anti-American" and then paint your thread topic as a defense of the BSA, victim of an ACLU attack, because that tactic is an intended smoke screen to avoid asking the rest of us if we agree that the ACLU is a threat to "things American". I am not yet ready to sign on to the "up is down", "good is bad", "we have to bomb you to bring you democracy", "1984ish doublespeak" that populates well coordinated and oft repeated talking points that emanate from the white house and radio "talk" shows. Enough !!!!!! Already.............

lindseylatch

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pan6467

In my opinion, you cannot be discriminitory in any way (unless you can prove by past actions that the person you discriminate against has a history of harming others, in this case a pedophile) if you expect government funding or use of government funded buildings.

If the BSA wants to claim they are private and therefore they can have rules that discriminate, they should not be allowed to take and government funding in any way.

The Salvation Army preaches Christianity, they recieve absolutely no government funds and have survived. So shall the BSA.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Gilda

BSA isn't the only organization that teaches leadership and duty through scouting and wilderness activities. Campfire USA teaches the same basic skills and values, but without actively discriminating based on sexual orientation, religious belief, or gender. Among the core values they teach is tolerance:

If schools want a scouting organization to teach their young people leadership and teamwork, I think this is a much better choice than the BSA.

NCB

Sounds nice and chummy, but when we as a society begin focusing on children's sexual orientation, then somewhere we went astray.

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Willravel

Maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. We are trying to teach the kids how to be responsible adults. Is it responsible to teach them to hate and segregate people based on sexual orientation, gender, and religion? Of course not. We are not focusing on the sexual orientation of the kids (I couldn't care less), but we are focusing on how to teach the kids to accept those of a different sexual orientation, in addition to those of different religions and genders. Would you teach your child to hate gays? How could you possibily justify that to a child who asks, "Why do we hate gay's, Dad? Are they bad people?"?

NCB

1. When does the BSA teach hate?
2. Do you think it's possible to disapprove of a lifestyle without "haing" the people associated with that lifestyle?

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guy44

Being homosexual is NOT A LIFESTYLE, anymore than being black or asian is.

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Willravel

So it's in a spirit of love that gays are publicly embarassed by being fired by the BSA? Bigotry, the root of the reasoning behind the BSA, is hate. Intolderance cannot be equated with anything but hate. Yes, the BSA teaches hate.
Like guy44 said, being gay isn't a lifestyle. Being gay is a genotype. Should people treat you with disrespect you because of your hair color or blood type?

lindseylatch

I think being gay, like many things, is a combination or nurture and nature. But that's not really what this thread is about...
I would just like the answer the title of the thread with "YES."

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

alansmithee

Wrong. I can't quit being black. Someone CAN quit being homosexual.

shakran

Prove it.


Now, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here. I know it's pretty hard to prove that someone can stop being homosexual if you're not homosexual yourself. But you are proposing that sexuality is variable depending upon the mood of the individual. In other words, if a gay man can up and decide to turn straight, a straight man can up and decide to turn gay.

So here's my challenge to you. I want you to turn gay for the next 3 months. It's a personal choice, so if a gay guy can make it, surely you can make it too. Quit being heterosexual for just three months, then get back to us to tell us how it went.

Gilda

Well done. You completely turned the point around backwards and refuted your distortion of it. That's called a straw man, by the way.

The point was that Campfire USA does not make an issue of the sexual orientation or religious beliefs of its members. It's open to people regardless of their sexuality or religious belief system. The BSA, on the other hand, does make an issue of it.

Every time the BSA throws out a scout leader in good standing for being a homosexual or a scout for refusing to take an oath to God, they are teaching intolerance.

I sure do. What's more, I'll even grant you that there is a homosexual lifestyle; there are homosexuals who go out of their way to advertise their orientation, who wear in on their sleeves, who seem to feel the need to connect everything about how they comport themselves in public to their sexuality. There are also heterosexuals who do the same thing. I find both groups annoying.

Then there are those of us who simply are homosexual, and want to be allowed to life our lives free of discrimination. How about those of us who are homosexual, but are not part of the lifestyle? Do you disaprove of us?

Willravel

Hahahaha. That's an awesome idea, and it's an excelent way for people like NCB or alansmithee to prove to us fools that homosexuality is simply a choice one makes. If alansmithee can learn to find men sexually attractive and possibly have a homosexual "experience", then I'd be more than willing to consider the idea that homosexuality is not simply genetic.

pan6467

I don't know I was a YMCA Indian Guide and I feel I learned more about life than friends who were in BSA. But

The Indian Guides to me were far more classier and actually because they were Father/Son they brought fathers and sons closer together.... at least in my tribe. Plus we met in each others homes and at the Y so we didn't have to depend on schools and such.

I know my short time in Weeblos we met in a church and religion was far more predominant in BSA than Indian Guides (which is funny because YMCA stands for Young Man's Christian Association).

I am sad to see this thread has denigrated into prejudices.

And I find it funny the ACLU is ok when they support the rights of Limbaugh and other right wingers..... but heaven forbid when they defend liberals.

Has Limbaugh said anything about this? Just curious if he is attacking the ACLU or is ignoring it all together.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

alansmithee

How is it an excellent way of proving anything? It's both unscientific and illogical.

I liken homosexuality to fetishism. It's something that is learned, but can be very hard to break. And I seriously doubt anyone thinks that being turned on by leather is inborn and not learned. And as long as it's controlled and doesn't adversly affect your life, there should be no reason to break it.

Again, what many people fail to understand is that the burden of proof isn't on showing how sexual orientation is NOT biological, but the opposite. I have repeatedly asked for concrete evidence that it is, and have yet to see any. One article that was posted in another thread to supposedly show how sexual orientation was biological actually supported my view.