Mobo123

hxxp://apnews.myway.com/article/20041221/D87476VG0.html

I bet if that asshole bush had to send his daughters to iraq to fight and die, we would never have invaded. I get so fucking mad at this incredible waste of lives and money. Over 1,300 americans dead and who knows how many injured and maimed.

These boys are dying and for what? oil for texas billionaires? fuck bush and all those goddammed policiticians who find it so easy to send other parent's kids into harm's way.

Send bush, rumsfeld, wolfowitz, cheney and all those other hardliners into the front lines. You'll see how fast this war ends.


BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - An explosion ripped through a mess tent at a military base near Mosul where hundreds of U.S. soldiers had just sat down to lunch Tuesday, killing 24 people and wounding more than 60, officials said. A radical Muslim group, the Ansar al-Sunnah Army, claimed responsibility for the deadliest attack on a U.S. base in Iraq.

The dead included U.S. military personnel, U.S. contractors, foreign national contractors and Iraqi army, said Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, commander of Task Force Olympia in Mosul.

The attack came the same day that British Prime Minister Tony Blair made a surprise visit to Baghdad and described the ongoing violence in Iraq as a "battle between democracy and terror."

Lt. Col. Paul Hastings, a spokesman for Task Force Olympia, told CNN that the toll was 24 dead. He added that more than 60 were wounded.

(AP) Iraqi police confiscate small caliber handguns in a shop in downtown Baghdad, Tuesday Dec. 21 2004....
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Jeremy Redmon, a reporter for the Richmond, Va., Times-Dispatch embedded with the troops in Mosul said the dead included two soldiers from the Richmond-based 276th Engineer Battalion, which had just sat down to eat at Forward Operating Base Merez. He reported 64 were wounded, and civilians may have been among them, he said.

Officials could not break down the toll of dead or wounded among the groups. Reports also differed as to the cause of the blast at the camp, which is based outside the predominantly Sunni Muslim city about 220 miles north of Baghdad.

The base, also known as the al-Ghizlani military camp, is used by both U.S. troops and the interim Iraqi government's security forces. It also is used by members of the Stryker Brigade, based at Fort Lewis, Wash., a military official said.

Although officials initially said rockets or mortar rounds struck the camp, Hastings said it was still under investigation.

"We do not know if it was a mortar or a place explosive," he said, describing it as a "single explosion."

(AP) Iraqi police check a vendors compact discs for those made by terrorist groups containing...
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The force knocked soldiers off their feet and out of their seats as a fireball enveloped the top of the tent and shrapnel sprayed into the area, Redmon said.

Amid the screaming and thick smoke in the tent, soldiers turned their tables upside down, placed the wounded on them and gently carried them into the parking lot, Redmon said.

Scores of troops crammed into concrete bomb shelters, while others wandered around in a daze and collapsed, he said.

"I can't hear! I can't hear!" one female soldier cried as a friend hugged her.

A huge hole was blown in the roof of the tent, and puddles of blood, lunch trays and overturned tables and chairs covered the floor, Redmon reported.

(AP) A masked Iraqi policeman carries confiscated small caliber hand guns found a shop in downtown...
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Near the front entrance, troops tended a soldier with a serious head wound, but within minutes, they zipped him into a black body bag, he said. Three more bodies were in the parking lot.

"It is indeed a very, very sad day," Ham said.

Redmon and photographer Dean Hoffmeyer are embedded with the 276th Engineer Battalion, a Richmond, Va., unit that can trace its lineage to the First Virginia Regiment of Volunteers formed in 1652. George Washington and Patrick Henry were two of its early commanders. Henry created the unit's motto, "Liberty or Death."

The Ansar al-Sunnah Army claimed responsibility for the attack in a statement on the Internet. It said the attack was a "martyrdom operation" targeting a mess hall in the al-Ghizlani camp.

Ansar al-Sunna is believed to be a fundamentalist group that wants to turn Iraq into an Islamic state like Afghanistan's former Taliban regime. The Sunni Muslim group claimed responsibility for beheading 12 Nepalese hostages and other recent attacks in Mosul.

(AP) An Iraqi policeman checks for compact discs made by terrorist groups with instructions on how to...
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White House spokesman Scott McClellan, responding to a question as to how Iraqis will be able to go to some 9,000 polling places on Jan. 30 if U.S. troops can't secure their own bases from attacks, said there was "security and peace" in 15 of 18 provinces in Iraq.

Mosul was the scene of the deadliest single incident for U.S. troops in Iraq. On Nov. 15, 2003, two Black Hawk helicopters collided over the city, killing 17 soldiers and injuring five. The crash occurred as the two choppers maneuvered to avoid ground fire from insurgents.

Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city, was relatively peaceful in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime last year. But insurgent attacks in the largely Sunni Arab area have increased dramatically and particularly since the U.S.-led military operation in November to retake Fallujah from militants.

Earlier in the day, hundreds of students demonstrated in the center of Mosul, demanding that U.S. troops cease breaking into homes and mosques there.

Also Tuesday, Iraqi security forces repelled another attack by insurgents trying to seize a police station there, the U.S. military said.

On Sunday, insurgents detonated two roadside bombs and a car bomb targeting U.S. forces in Mosul in three separate attacks. Other car bombs Sunday killed 67 people in the Shiite holy cites of Najaf and Karbala.

Interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi warned Monday that insurgents are trying to foment sectarian civil war as well as derail the elections.

During his visit, Blair held talks with Allawi and Iraqi election officials, whom he called "heroes" for doing their work despite attacks. Three members of Iraq's election commission were dragged from the car and killed this week in Baghdad.

Blair defended the role of Britain's 8,000 troops.

"If Iraq is a stable and democratic country, that is good for the Middle East, and what is good for the Middle East, is actually good for the world, including Britain," he said.

Blair, whose trip to Iraq hadn't been disclosed for security reasons, urged Iraqis to back next month's elections.

"Whatever people's feelings and beliefs about the removal of Saddam Hussein, and the wisdom of that, there surely is only one side to be on in what is now very clearly a battle between democracy and terror," he said.

Allawi said his government was committed to holding the elections as scheduled, despite calls for their postponement owing to the violence.

"We have always expected that the violence would increase as we approach the elections," Allawi said.

Blair flew into the Iraqi capital about 11 a.m. aboard a British military transport aircraft from Jordan. A Royal Air Force Puma helicopter flew from Baghdad airport to the city center, escorted by U.S. Black Hawk helicopters.

It was Blair's first visit to Baghdad and his third to Iraq since the dictator Saddam Hussein was toppled in April 2003. Blair visited British troops stationed around the southern Iraqi city of Basra in mid-2003 and in January. President Bush had paid a surprise visit to U.S. troops in Baghdad at Thanksgiving in 2003.

Blair flew to Basra later Tuesday.

The British leader was a key supporter of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq that toppled Saddam. His decision to back the U.S. offensive angered many lawmakers in his governing Labour Party and a large portion of the British public.

In other violence Tuesday, a U.S. jet bombed a suspected insurgent target west of Baghdad. Hamdi Al-Alosi, a doctor in a hospital in the city of Hit, said four people were killed and seven injured in the strike. He said the attack damaged several cars and two buildings. A U.S. military spokesman could not confirm the casualties.

Elsewhere, five American soldiers and an Iraqi civilian were wounded when the Humvee they were traveling in was hit by a car bomb near Hawija, 150 miles north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said.

In Baqouba, a city 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, unidentified assailants shot and killed an Iraqi nuclear scientist as he was on his way to work, witnesses said. Taleb Ibrahim al-Daher, a professor at Diyala University, was killed as he drove over a bridge on the Khrisan river. His car swerved and plummeted into the water.

In northern Iraq, insurgents set ablaze a major pipeline used to ship oil to the Turkish port of Ceyhan, a principal export route, an official with the North Oil CO. said. Firefighters were on the scene, 70 miles southwest of Kirkuk.

---

Associated Press writers John Lumpkin in Washington and Slobodan Lekic in Baghdad contributed to this story.

Coppertop

I fear this will continue as long as there are US forces in Iraq. Which doesn't appear to be ending any time soon. So very sad.

djtestudo

Man that was a quality argument you made Mobo. I've completely changed my view on what is going on. Thanks!

__________________
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--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

tecoyah

Lets see if we can manage to actually turn this into a viable thread

Unless of course we would all like to go the way of the thread starter and simply bitch about an unfortunate situation. This is the sort of banter I am very tempted to simply close...........alas, let us see if it is salvagable.

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Rdr4evr

The simple fact is that Iraq will not be a peaceful country for as long as coalition forces occupy their land. They are not wanted there, they were never wanted there, and the "enemy" will continue to fight and kill until they are out of their homeland.

You can't shove "democracy" down the throat of a country that obviously does not want it. Unfortunately, it is too late to back out of this situation, and I fear it will last much longer than expected or wanted.

Too bad the money wasted to kill innocent people couldn't go towards
something positive.

Faygo

i feel sad for those who died.

Mobo123

i just get very angry about all of this. I am much older than most of you. I have a son who is 17. i'll be dammed if he goes and dies for what i perceive to be a worthless cause. I remember almost being drafted for the vietnam war. I had my selective service number but thankfully the war ended before i was called.

I dont want either of my boys dying for this.

Fourtyrulz

I feel sad for those still fighting.

The simple fact is that their way of tribal living (in a social sense) cannot handle a democracy. The upcoming January elections are going to be a tragic disaster.

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sprocket

Did they join the military? If not then I dont think you need to worry. The draft isnt coming back anytime soon.

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Mephisto2

I was going to post this story last night, when the news flash first came on. The I asked myself why bother? It would just create a bitch-fest. How does a bomb in Iraq facilitate a useful discussion on this board? If people want to rant, then this should be in the General Board.

If people want to debate the pros and cons of the action in Iraq, based upon something new (not just the death of some soldiers), then OK.

But if we're just ranting because 19 US soldiers were killed, then I refer the board members to the hundreds of threads on this topic we've had for over a year.



Mr Mephisto

PS - My sympathies to the families of those that died (including the Iraqis). Also, to the injured and maimed, who are often overlooked. If terrorism in Ireland is anything to go by, this kind of attack (semi-soft targets; ie, canteens) will continue to increase. Such a waste...

Seaver

Really? Like during the infandata when they asked us for help and we ignored it? You know, when Saddam massacred the Shi'ite and Kurds after putting it down? Huh... I'll be damned...

JohnBua

I just don't understand this train of thought. Liberals seem to be saying that those inferior Iraqis can not cope with Democracy. Doesn't that go agains the very core concept of liberalism?

And the only people talking about drafts, are democrats trying to scare us by saying that Bush is using fear tactics.

Fourtyrulz

Do you know anything about traditional Iraqi society? Or the perhaps some of the destructive history that western tradition has had on the Arabic nations? Perhaps the rich Islamic tradition the country of Iraq holds? Most people would like to say this is a war about freedom and justice, but take a look at history. History tells us that the Arabic people will defend their holiest of lands to the very end. Look at the Crusades, they were a complete failure. Remember when the US was going to invade Najaf looking for Al-Sadr? Invading Najaf would be like invading Vatican City, a city I know most Christians would defend if called upon. The war is being fought under the guise of democracy, but the Muslims in that area think and act and tell us otherwise.

I do not think that George Bush knows a lick of the great religious traditions in Iraq and the middle east, and it will be his downfall...look at history my friend.

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the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

JohnBua

I didn't realize that the Crusades were fought to bring Democracy to the Middle East.

djtestudo

Why would Christians rise up and defend Vatican City against an army looking for a terrorist? Especially when the army isn't there to destroy the city.

And the Crusades had a slightly different goal then this war.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Fourtyrulz

Johnbua,

Nice, well thought out contribution. Perhaps if you would have read the whole of my post you would realize that for the middle eastern nations the wars have and always will be about religion no matter what Dubya says otherwise, and that everytime the Christians come to town with weapons a little buzzer goes off and someone thinks "Hmmm, doesn't this look familiar?"

Edited out some unnecessary vitriol...

Further reading: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...adr_04-13.html

__________________
the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

stevo

It is a small number of terrorists doing all the damage. Not the majority of iraqis. If iraqis obviously don't want democracy then why do, day after day, more young iraqi men line up to become police and join the iraqi army with continued bombings against them? After assasinations and hostage taking why do candidates continue to involve themselves in the upcoming elections?

The recent attack is a traject aspect of war and it is a reminder that we are fighting people willing to kill themselves in order to take iraq back to the dark ages. Note above article: I have a feeling you are going to be suprised at the polling turnout on election day in the face of continued terror. It will a higher turnout than the US has had in any election I can remember.

JohnBua

Thank you for a well written post, Stevo. It seems that some people confuse the actions of alien terrorists with Iraqi civillians.

roachboy

spoken like a true member of the ann coulter school. amazing.



i remain unsure if i should participate in this thread or not: i opposed the war from the outset, i remain opposed to it. i have nothing but contempt for the bush administration, and hope that one day bush will himself be held personally to account legally for every death this absurd, illegal war has engendered.

such is my optimism.

as for saddam hussein--who was undoubtedly not a great guy---all the righteous lather expended by the right on him would have been much easier to swallow had it not been known all along that the americans supported, armed and advised hussein very actively under reagan, up to the invasion of kuwait.

for a nifty timeline, check here:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...rming_iraq.php

american support was not affected in any way by the gassing of iranian troops and. later, of the kurds.


this specific incident in mosul is indeed unfortunate---and, like everything else in this misbegotten war-----totally unnecessary.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Fourtyrulz

To quote the late and great Bill Hicks:


Edit: Jesus, reading that website is blowing my mind. After reading those quotes it became blindingly clear to me why Dubya chose to go after Saddam and Iraq rather than the true terrorist governments of Afghanistan and Iran. Mind boggling....it is just simply mind boggling...

__________________
the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

Mephisto2

You know roachboy, I'm much closer to your political stance than the Bush supporters, but I think the above comments are unfair.

On one hand to state utter contempt for Bush and wish for him to be held "legally responsible" for military deaths on one hand, and then to describe Hussein as "not a great guy" on the other is just a little too vitriolic for me.

Hussein is a mass murderer. Bush is not.
Hussein was a dictator. Bush is not.
Hussein seized power in an illegal and bloody coup. Bush did not.
Hussein personally murdered several of his opponents by his own admission. Bush did not.
Hussein executed hundreds of his own political party. Bush did not.
Hussein used chemical weapons to murder hundreds, if not thousands, of Iraqi, Iranian and Kurdish soldiers and civilians. Bush did not.

I don't like Bush. I don't like his Administration or his policies. But he's a fucking angel compared to Hussein.


Mr Mephisto

stevo

Just so you know, I don't read ann coulter. I don't listen to ann coulter on the radio. All I know of ann coulter is when she is a guest on cable news networks, and I don't watch that much cable news. Because I speak what I believe to be the truth and it happens to be in-line with others does not mean that I only regergitate what they say. Conservatives are smarter than you think.

Its nice that you know something about the history of US foreign policy. If you thought about it a little more you would have realized that the US support of Iraq was during the cold-war era. A time when the enemy of our enemy was our friend. Obviously you have not come to the realization that we live in different times now. A time when the enemy of our enemy may still well be our enemy. A time where it is not about two nuclear superpowers racing to stay ahead eachother. A time when the spread of communisim is not the concern. We live in a time where it is the freedom-loving, tolerant and democratic societies that are under attack by religious extremists whose ultimate goal is the destruction of everything America and The West stand for. Where their goal is the creation of an Islamic controlled world circa 1050ad void of the infidel.

That is what we are up against here and to argue against fighting it by bringing up the old ways of warfare and the old world order is not going to get you anywhere.

roachboy

you jumped over levels, mr mephisto--which is in the end my fault for not being sufficiently clear. i was not drawing parallels between bush and hussein. i simply was not--it never crossed my mind to make that kind of argument, i would not do it. that you could read it that way is, as i said, my mistake, for lack of clarity.

i meant what i wrote, in the sequence i wrote it. the iraq war is as it is, in my view. hussein was a pig, but the americans have typically had not porblem with pigs in power so long as they are convenient. this is a matter of record, not a problem to check out.

on your individual points (i cut the "bush is not" thing.)

in significant measure, with backing from the americans...from the outset, too: the americans were only too happy to encourage hussein to massacre members of the iraqi communist party right after the coup d'etat. the americans were not terribly concerned in the intervening period. they were most helpful to hussein throughout the reagan administration.

this is not to say all murders, mind you: but many of them.
i am not diminishing what hussein did--i just do not beleive that the americans have any moral high ground in this on the basis of which to complain.
this says nothing about the farce that was the bushcase for war.


agreed.

with american backing. american support. look it up: it is a matter of record.

same as above--again, not in every case (again) but the basic point is unchanged.


agreed.

look at the link i posted above on this. i do not think i could possible say what is hows as effectively. and this is not the best site on the matter. it is simply a timeline.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

roachboy

stevo:

fill me in exactly on how the reagan support of iraq fits into the cold war. not all geopolitics of the early 1980s fits. the iran-iraq war doesnt. so i dont see your point, really. explain more perhaps?


sorry if i impugned you by associating you with ann coulter. it just happened that i looked her up for some reason and then saw your post and voila there it was, the two of you really close to each other in terms of position--specifically the remark about the dark ages..
and i re-read the rest of your post, and you are not really so far from her....have a look at this anti-ac site..which is pretty amateurish and only interesting for the quotes..but it gives an idea of why i say what i do:

http://www.therationalradical.com/di...nn_coulter.htm


------------------------------------------------------------------
i do have one question, however: i was watching "control room" the other night--a great documentary, btw, about al jazeera--the people who were at the center of the film were watching footage of the americans going into baghdad. they kept asking "where is the army? where is the republican guard"? and i keep wondering the same thing--where is the iraqi army? where is the republican guard? what make you think that the "insurgency" is not being waged by them? i know what the bushites would have you believe, but it just makes no sense to me. i dont know if this is a good thread to pose this question, nor do i actually address it to you specifically, stevo. but it just strikes me as odd, this word "insurgency," this insistence on "foreign elements"....the iraqi army simply disappeared...they couldnt have simply ceased to exist---so where are they?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

OFKU0

I don't. It is unfortunate when anyone is killed fighting for whatever just cause is dictated, but those are the risks that are well understood. As it has been posted time and time again in different contexts on this forum, War is War.

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stevo

Wow...um lets see if I can explain this. During the 1980's Iran was our enemy. Iran committed numerous acts that went against our interests. (see below). During that time (the cold-war era, as I put it before) the enemy of our enemy was our friend. That means since Iraq was at war with our enemy, Iran, that we went ahead and aided Iraq in their fight against Iran. Read this, it explains a lot.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...9/102451.shtml

And here's a brief history of US DIA efforts in the 1980's if you're interested: http://www.fas.org/irp/dia/product/p...tory_1980.html
ps. I now take your Ann Coulter comments as a complement. Thank you.

edit-spelling mistake

Rdr4evr

Why is it that you consider the people doing all the damage "terrorists”? Does fighting back forces that wrongfully invaded your country equate terrorism? I understand that not all of the fighters are Iraqis, but I am willing to bet a lot of them are. I also think that number outweighs the number of traitor Iraqis who are assisting the American forces in killing their own people.

I can assure you the rest of the world considers Americans the terrorists.

Also, if I recall correctly, those Iraqis you mention that are lining up, are also resigning by the hundreds. I need to search for a link, but I remember reading it on Cnn's website.

What it comes down to is that it was never Americas business to tell Iraqis how to live their life and insist that they will be better off the way Americans think they would be better off. And most importantly, it was never the Iraqis that were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Priorities are ass backwards.

We are not fighting people willing to kill themselves in order to take Iraq to the dark ages, we are fighting people who realize that Americans are killing their children, their brothers, their sisters, their mothers and fathers. We are fighting people who are willing to destroy Americans at any cost necessary because they can not sit back and watch Americans destroy their people and demolish their land. Sure, there are the few crazies who behead and whatnot, but that number pales in comparison to the casualties the Americans are responsible for.

This recent tragic event would have never occurred if Bushie wasn’t a war mongering, selfish, arrogant, greedy, money grubbing, lying religious nut job. In the end, the "terrorists" you mention are no different then Bush. Both murder in the name of God.

Rdr4evr

I feel sad for the Iraqi civilians that died. I feel sad for the innocents that lost loved ones.

ObieX

One of the things int he article i took notice of what the part about the 12 beheadings. We never hear about the beheadings and hostages it seems unless they're American, with maybe a sprinkle of brittish, and if lucky a coupel other european nations. Rarely do we hear about the ones from other countries working along side us. But then again this kind of thing isnt exactly uncommon. I just hate how no one ever wants to try to give us the whole picture. We may start to think things are going badly (lol).

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stevo

I don't have much to say to you. Insults like that in your post prove nothing and detract any credibility you may have had. I hope you live long enough to see the final result, as it will prove you wrong.

whocarz

Unbelievable. Just simply unbelievable. I would try to argue the points I disagree with, which happens to be all of them, but it would be a waste of time. I know, because I've argued these same points with you before, to no avail. All I have to say is I'd really like to see the world through your eyes for one day just to see where you get such opinions.

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stevo

I believe if you were presented the whole picture you may begin to think things aren't going as badly as they are portrayed.

I know this thread has moved a bit from the story at hand, so I'd just like to reaffirm my condolences and thank those brave souls who gave thier arms, legs, and lives defending freedom.

Rdr4evr

Insuts? Did I somehow insult you Stevo?

Whocarz, I don't remember arguing with you to no avail, but if you disagree with all the things I said, than we will definately never come to terms. But thats why opinions are so great. I hope one day you see the world through my eyes as well, I wish all Americans would

Rdr4evr

You are 100% correct. I posted this in a beheading thread a while ago. Below is a list of all the beheadings and executions thus far, most not American.

Japanese, killed around 30th October
Kenneth Bigley, British, killied on 7 October
Jack Hensley, American, killed on 21 September
Eugene Armstrong, American, killed on 20 September
Nasser Juma, Egyptian, killed on 5 September
12 unnamed Nepalese hostages were killed on 31 August
Enzo Baldoni, Italian, killed on 26 August
Mohammed Mutawalli, Egyptian, killed on 10 August according to Islamist web site posting
Osman Alisan, Turkish, killed on 5 August according to Islamist web site posting
Murat Yuce, Turkish, killed on 2 August according to Islamist web site posting
Sajjad Naeem, Pakistani, killed on 28 July
Raja Azad Khan, Pakistani, killed on 28 July
Georgi Lazov, Bulgarian, killed on 13 July
Keith Matthew Maupin, American, killed on 28 June according to al-Jazeera television, but there is no official US conformation
Kim Sun-il, South Korean, killed in 22 June
Hussein Ali Alyan, Lebanese, killed on 12 June
Nick Berg, American, killed on 11 May
Fabrizio Quattrocchi, Italian, killed on 14 April

You see, you never hear these other executions mentioned because American media wants you to believe that American life is more valuable than other life. And unfortunately, most people believe that media.

I was reading the story at Yahoo, and here is their description:

"A guerrilla attack on a U.S. base in Iraq killed 15 American military personnel and seven other people....."

Notice how 15 American military were killed and, uh, seven other nobodies.

JohnBua

We call them terrorist because they are targeting civillians. The so called "minutemen" and freedom fighters as Michael Moore called them, are using car bombs and such to kill civillians and to murder people in churches. That is why they are called terrorist.

ObieX

Most targets are rather tactical actually. Atleast the ones in Iraq. They're targeting people like American troops, new police, new iraqi military, people who stepped up to try to head the iraqi government, religious leaders who made the mistake of siding with the US, and anyone else that sides with the US. Its not like they're walking down the street shooting anyone they see. There are reasons for who is being killed.

I happen to agree with a lot of what Rdr4evr has said. Most attacks are coming from Iraqis who want us the hell out of their country. Hell it was even quoted in the thread's original story. The one guy who works for the Iraqi government said he would rather have seen 2000 americans dead instead of just 20, and the rest should b driven out. He is NOT the only one that thinks that way. WE invaded THEIR country. This tends to piss people off. Especially when these people see their brothers/fathers/sisters/mothers etc getting killed every single day by our troops. These guys are PEOPLE, they are not nameless masked men who apear fromt he darkness to kill all humanity. They are someone's brother/mother/father/sister. They are defending their homeland from invaders. I'm sure many would do the same.Sure, some people in France rolled over when Hitler came, but many stayed and formed a resistance to repel the invaders. Today those people are looked upon as heros. To the arab people many of the forces in iraq standing up against the US are looked upon as the same.

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powerclown

Noble thought, that.
The only thing anyone over there is trying to defend are their own ambitions for Power. The 'they' you refer to are the different ethnicities THIS close to turning on eachother in a civil war.

roachboy

this looks like war to me.
it looks like a classical guerilla-type war.

maybe it would have been easier for those in bushworld to say it had they not sent cowboy george onto the aircraft carrier with the matador stuffing in his flight suit to declare the war over.

which is in all probability why the machinery now has to refer to what is happening in iraq as an "insurgency" as "terrorism"--when it is obvious, even in this era of reporters in bed with the military, that what obie said about it above is correct.

it also seems obvious that in terms of indiscriminate killing of civilians that the americans are doing quite alot more of it than are the "insurgents"--declarations of intent and lines about "precision bombing" notwithstanding.

the gap that seperates the viewpoints of folk who opposed this war from those who support it is strange and persistent. it seems to me that supporting this farce requires a considerable amount of intellectual labor, erasing or rationalizing a huge amount of dissonant information in order to keep intact a space where it is possible to simply shake your head and express regrets about deaths that seem inevitable because the war is itself so.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ObieX

Sweeping the hatred under the rug of democracy will not get rid of it. It just gives it a cool dark place for it to fester and grow. If a civil war is what they want, I'm sure they'll eventually give it to eachother. I'm aware of the tribal situation, but a homeland is a homeland. A person may not recognize the borders of Iraq and instead may see their tribal lands only, but the US is still there killing families.

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We Must Dissent.

Rekna

It is quite clear here that the people who did this were not targeting civilians so how about we call them the Iraqi Resistance instead of terrorist or isurgents?