D Rice

Yes my parents actually live about 15 mins from Amsterdam. I talked to my dad and he could hardly say it without sounding like the devil but he said maybe the Dutch can somewhat see what the Americans are dealing with and see how they feel. I think he is sick of the anti-american crap. Although they may run and hide like spain

Aladdin Sane

Ironic isn't it? After three thousand people are murdered by Islamofacists in Manhattan, the Americans retalliate by destroying barbaric dictatorships in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ninety percent of Europeans agree that the Americans are the real threat to world peace, and take to the streets in protest by the hundreds of thousands. Bush lied people died, blah blah blah. Then, exactly 911 days after the twin towers fall, one infamous Dutch film-maker, Theo van Gogh, gets his head sawed off by a jihadist while biking through Amsterdam. Suddenly, calls for war against the terrorists are more common in Nederland than stoned tourists in the Melkweg. Go figure.

I hope this means an awakening for the Dutch nation. Please don't go the way of the Spanish.

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Ustwo

I'm afraid I don't see this happening, people are lazy and they will look for the easy way out which will be talks and sensitivity training. They will blame themselves more than the people that did the murdering. It will keep getting worse until no one will be able to ignore it, but by then the cost to fix it will be far greater.

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roachboy

ustwo: i'll repost something.

your viewpoint is perfectly consistent with what you would find talking to jean-marie le pen or bruno megret or any of a wide range of neofascist organizations in western europe.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Dragonlich

Actually... The Dutch are much more pro-American than some other European countries. And the Dutch actually have troops stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan at this very moment. We well not run and hide, we will fight back.

Just like Spain isn't running and hiding, actually... they're very active in the war on terror; just because you think they "caved" in by bringing their troops from Iraq, doesn't mean they suddenly turned into supporters of radical Islam. I may not support their decision or their timing in the matter of Iraq, but I do support their other anti-terror actions. The Spanish have a *bit* more experience in fighting terrorism than the USA, IMHO - or did you forget the ETA?

As for the bombing of an Islamic school - that's not a sign of civil war. Most Dutch people agree that that was simply a very stupid/insane/criminal thing to do. Of course, a reaction by a supposed Islamic terror group saying that "we should stop attacking Islamic sites or else" doesn't help to pacify the situation.

I'd say there's a huge amount of anger and resentment on both sides. As long as idiots keep inflaming the situation, this will only increase. I doubt it'll turn into a civil war at all; if it escalates, it'll turn into a tit-for-tat terror race, with the rest of us caught in the middle.

DJ Happy

I am constantly amazed to hear statements like this. This isn't even applicable in the story of this thread, yet it pops up time and again.

martinguerre

It pops up because it is reassuring...that whatever America or the West is doing in the world is just, and if there are objections, they are invalid. If there are violent objections, they are to be crushed.

It takes away any responsibility for thinking about why the extremists have sympathizers, why governments are willing to risk basing terror activities, and why the slums of the middle east have become a breeding ground for militant groups.

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-John 3:16

D Rice

Well the Saudi gov't is pro U.S. but the people are not. I think it is the same way in the Netherlands

Mojo_PeiPei

Comments like this take away from moral fortitude and responsibility.

Just because someone supports a cause that is evil, doesn't make it justifiable. Nor does that allow for a situation to condone state sponsorship of terror. The world is black and white, evil is evil.

This really pisses me off how people here harp and ridicule the American government so harshly and without repent, yet at the same time you actually go and try to sympathize with, and justify what a bunch of amoral sociopaths are doing. It is truly disturbing.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Ustwo

Did they catch who did the bombing?

To me it sounds like something a radical islamic group would do just to help their own cause.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

roachboy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3994539.stm

reactions to the funeral. note the official response. note too that this response does not in any way double the far right response, which you see repeated again and again here, wrapped in a veneer of "common sense"....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Aladdin Sane

Your "constant amazement" may be amusing to you, DJ Happy, but it is not evidence for anything, except for an emotion that you are experiencing. It's hardly the basis for evidence in a debate.

It is believed by Dutch authorities that van Gogh's assassin was a member of a terrorist group with ties to Islamist murderers in Morocco. The note that he left behind (pinned to van Gogh's body with a knife) was a clear call to jihad, meant as a rallying cry to those who are working for the destruction of western civilization. If you wish to read the note, I've posted part of it above. The entire thing can be found on various sites, and in a number of news stories.

If you have evidence that these jihadist barbarians are after something less than the end to western society, please present it here. I'm open to whatever evidence you have.

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D Rice

I worry about how they will react. I think a lot of europe is very strange about thier loyalty to thier country. I had an Italian friend who said the only time the country is united or patriotic is during the world cup. They care more about thier region than thier country. This is very evident in Spain, go to Barcelona and you will not see the flag of Spain often but the flag of the region. Why do people get confused about whether it is Holland or the Netherlands? Because people from Holland say they are from Holland and not the netherlands. I am rambling but it is something to think about

inkriminator

I think this is indicative of your mindset. You appear to have already decided this "war" must, and is probably beginning, to take place.

Most of your evidence of this war are anecdotal stories that could be related about any high tension ethnic area.

The solution to the problem, as I see it, is to give it time for assimilation to occur. In the US, muslims have assimilated remarkably well for a religion that many would like to paint as constantly calling for America's demise. There has not been a single American muslim charged with attacking America in its homeland with the possible exception of the Mohammed/Malvo sniper attacks. And the sniper was clearly a nutjob. American Mosques have vandalized, Muslims have been killed for their religion, mosques have been bombed, in America, and America is clearly not in a "war" with its own muslim citizens.

I think the Bush doctrine is elegant with its simplicity. If a non-democratic country cannot control problems that extend beyond its borders, then someone needs to step in. The trouble is that our government appears to focus only on Islamic Terrorism, and ignores Terrorism in the many other forms it appears in

zenmaster10665

So it is our fault that they want to kill us.
I get it now!


Do you have any economic statistics on the arabic immigrant sector of the US workforce? I can tell you from my experience that most of them are well paid, well educated and hard working.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

martinguerre

This is a european discussion, if memory serves. Problems with non-integration and systemic poverty are an issue there... America's race problems are just as severe, but configured somewhat differently. I'm also referring to the under-development of arab nations and the effects of colonialism.

No. Not what i'm saying by a long shot.

We've managed to have a forgien policy that makes them by comparison, look a whole lot better to the desperate masses than they have any right to. Their ability to recruit has been enchanced by our missteps and inattention. Remember the Shah of Iran. We got to have a pro-Western government there...at the price of having the whole country go off the cliff. Remember Iran/Iraq war? We contained Iran. At the cost of giving Saddam WMDs and munitions. Remember the House of Saud? We get a western friendly government...but the people are being fed Whabbism, a dangerous perversion of Islamic doctrine that breeds terrorists. Those faults are now costing us lives...a situation that i for one, believe to be rather urger.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Dragonlich

How is this different from the US, where people are proud to be from Texas, for example?

I'm sorry, but that last statement is just plain wrong. The name "Holland" comes from the historic region of that name, which just happened to be the richest area of the Netherlands. Over the centuries, the Netherlands and Holland became pretty much synonymous. When I say I'm from Holland, it's precisely because of that reason, not because I feel some sort of connection to my region. Perhaps this is different for the Spanish, but typically not for the Dutch. Okay, maybe for those in the southern part of the country, but they're almost Belgians anyway.

(If you want to compare it to something: if you are from the United States, you are also from America. Officially, an American could also be someone from Canada, given that they're from North-America, the continent.)

D Rice

Fair enough. You know better than i do. Where do you live in the Netherlands. I am from Texas but my parents just moved over there to i think Vassinar (I probably didn't spell that right)

Dragonlich

That's probably "Wassenaar".

I live in Hoorn, a city north of Amsterdam. Nobody here tried to burn anyone or anything yet, though... Strangely enough, it seems to be concentrated in the south.

Although there was this long, boring incident in the Hague today, where supposed extremists threw a friggin' handgrenade at policemen trying to storm their house, injuring three (all are alive, luckily).

We saw the resulting siege on live television, and I can assure you that 8 hours of "no, nothing's happened yet" gets pretty damn boring. At the end, they arrested two people there. People were kinda expecting a repeat of that raid on terrorists in Madrid, where the house was blown up, but nothing serious happened. Well, except for that hand grenade...

Lebell

Hey, Dragonlich,

If I ever make it to Amsterdam, want to hook up?

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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fibber

Ha Ha you can't use Texas as your example Dragonlich, we're a weird breed. When I went to England last year, a guy in the group of ppl we were drinking with asked where I was from. I of course responded Waller, Texas, every Englishman there at the table bust out laughing. I asked why and one told me that "Whenever a yank tells you where he's from, they all say "The States" "America" etc.,but it never fails, if that yank happens to be from Texas, he will ALWAYS say Texas, and usually tell you the tiny town too."

bit off topic I know but it still cracks me up.

-fibber

Aladdin Sane

More fuel for the fire:

http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.ph...ews/dutch.html

The International Herald Tribune

For Dutch, anger battles with tolerance
By Craig S. Smith The New York Times
Thursday, November 11, 2004

AMSTERDAM Anger toward the Netherlands' Muslim community percolated among the crowd that gathered outside the funeral for the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was killed by an Islamic extremist a week ago.

The public debate over how conservative Islam fits into Europe's most tolerant, liberal society had already become a no-holds-barred affair before the killing of van Gogh, who had publicly and repeatedly used epithets against Muslims. But his killing has now polarized the country, giving the rest of Europe a disturbing glimpse of what may be in store if relations with the continent's growing immigrant communities are not managed more adeptly.

The anger is such that for the second time in two days an Islamic elementary school was attacked Tuesday, this time in Uden, part of what Dutch authorities fear are reprisals after van Gogh's killing. The authorities said that Muslim sites had been the targets of a half-dozen attacks in the past week.

In apparent retaliation, arsonists attempted to burn down Protestant churches in Rotterdam, Utrecht and Amersfoort, the police said.

The attacks have scratched the patina of tolerance on which the Dutch have long prided themselves, particularly here in their principal city, where the scent of hashish trails in the air, prostitutes beckon from storefront brothels and Hell's Angels live side by side with Hare Krishnas. But many Dutch now say that for years that tradition of tolerance suppressed an open debate about the challenges of integrating conservative Muslims.

Jan Colijn, 46, a bookkeeper from the central Dutch town of Gorinchem who was at the funeral Tuesday night, complained that the Netherlands' generous social welfare system had allowed Muslim immigrants to isolate themselves. Because of that, "there is a kind of Muslim fascism emerging here," he said. "The government must find a way to break these communities open."

Another man, who declined to give his name, was more succinct: "Now, it's war."

For many years, such criticism of Islam and Islamic customs, even among Dutch extremists, was considered taboo, despite deep frustrations that had built up against conservative Islam in the country.

Many here say that began to change after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, when the Netherlands, like many other countries, began to consider the dangers of political Islam seriously. The debate fueled an anti-immigration movement and helped propel the career of the populist politician Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered by an environmental activist shortly before national elections in 2002.

By all accounts in the Netherlands, Fortuyn's murder removed any remaining brakes on the debate surrounding immigrants.

"After Pim Fortuyn's murder, there were no limitations on what you could say," said Edwin Bakker, a terrorism expert at the Netherlands Institute of International Relations. "It has become a climate in which insulting people is the norm."

He and others said the public discourse, even among members of government, reached an unprecedented pitch and included language that went far beyond the limits set for public forums in the United States.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of Parliament and one of a handful of politicians threatened with death by Islamic extremists, publicly called the prophet Muhammad a "pervert" and a "tyrant." She made a film with van Gogh condemning sexual abuse among Muslim women, who were portrayed with Koranic verses written on their bare skin.

Van Gogh himself was one of the most outspoken critics of fundamentalist Muslims and favored an epithet for conservative Muslims that referred to bestiality with a goat. He used the term often in his public statements, including a column he wrote for a widely read free newspaper and during radio broadcasts and television appearances.

The cumulative effect made van Gogh, a distant relation of the painter Vincent van Gogh, a kind of cult clown on one side of the debate, and a reviled hatemonger on the other.

The debate became so caustic that the Dutch intelligence service, AIVD, issued a report in March warning that the unrestrained language could encourage radicalization of the country's Muslim youth and drive individuals into the arms of terrorist recruiters. The agency has warned repeatedly in recent years that such recruiters are active in the Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe.

While only about 20 percent of the Netherlands' estimated 900,000 Muslims practice their religion, according to one government study, officials say as many as 5 percent of Muslims in the country follow a conservative form of Islam. Most are from the Netherlands' Moroccan community, which has its roots in the Rif, an impoverished, mountainous Berber region in the north.

There are about 300,000 people of Moroccan descent in the Netherlands today, and the intensified anti-immigration debate has alienated many of them from Dutch society and, many people argue, has also helped fragment the Muslim community.

Jean Tillie, a professor of political science at the University of Amsterdam, says that the debate has broken down a network that connected even the most extremist Muslim groups to the more moderate voices within the Muslim community. He cited an Amsterdam government advisory board that brought together all kinds of Moroccans and fostered communication and cohesion within the Muslim community.

"Those groups participating didn't agree with each other, but they met together with the collective mission of advising the city government," he said.

The board was abolished a year ago, he says. He claims that funds for other ethnic organizations have shrunk and outreach policies have also been abandoned.



At El Tawheed mosque, considered by many people to be the epicenter of extremism in Amsterdam, Farid Zaari, the mosque's spokesman, argues that pressure from the debate has hindered the Muslim community's ability to control its radical youth.

"If we bring these people into the mosque, it is possible to change their thoughts, but few mosques dare to because if you do, you're branded," he said.

Dutch media reports insist that van Gogh's killer attended the mosque, and though Zaari says the mosque has no record of his ever being there, he said that political leaders and the media should encourage the mosque to reach out to the community's radical youth, rather than stigmatizing it for doing so.



The mosque was previously associated with a Saudi-based charity, Al Haramain, which American and Saudi Arabian officials accused earlier this year of aiding Islamic terrorists. The mosque has since severed its ties with the charity, but more recently it has been criticized for selling books espousing extremist views, including female circumcision and the punishment of homosexuals by throwing them off tall buildings.

Several legislators have called for the mosque to be shut down, but under the Dutch constitution it is difficult to do.

Zaari admits that the Muslim community was slow to respond to the fears within Dutch society. "We didn't feel it was our responsibility to bridge the gap, but now, with the murder, the gap has gotten wider," he said. "All of us want to begin a dialogue now, but the language of the political right is too extreme, and that's preventing discussion," he said. "We all have to cool down and be careful what we say."

The problem is how to bridge a gap that has yawned dangerously since van Gogh's murder.

The Amsterdam Council of Churches published paid notices in some Dutch newspapers pledging solidarity with the Muslim community. But the government's response has been to promise more money for fighting terrorism and stronger immigration laws.

"Islam is the most hated word in the country at this point," said Bakker, the terrorism expert.




IHT Copyright © 2004 The International Herald Tribune | www.iht.com

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Tarl Cabot

Have you ever been to Japan?

martinguerre

You ever been to Manchuria or Korea? They usually have something to say when people call the Japenese isolationist.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Tarl Cabot

I wasn't claiming that no isolationist country had done poorly.

I was pointing out that the generalization did not apply in every case.

Ustwo

SIDETRACK:The Japanese were weak and backwards until they woke up when Perry showed up with his battle ship train.

Now back to the comming war:
Yep, no problem in Europe, its just all a few radicals......no culture war looming....

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roachboy

this is ridiculous, ustwo.

is this board a space that you use simply to run out the most superficial possible understanding of complex situations as if superficiality was the goal of some parlor game?

is it too much to ask that you elaborate an actual analysis?

the request applies to this:

to this:

the list goes on.

i assume that you cannot possibly believe this, that you post this kind of line here as an act of provocation. on the other hand, there is the possibility that the reverse is true, and you actually believe what you post, in which case i (for one) would like to see, for once, arguments in support of it rather than soundbytes in their place. because all you are post are interpretive argument without the slightest presentation of justification for it. you act as though there is no need to make the actual argument. well, there is.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Aladdin Sane

Roachboy, I must disagree with you, or otherwise admit to my own confusion about what your position is in regards to the subject at hand. It is not Ustwo who has offered argument without evidence.

This thread is full of news reports which support his contention that Western civilization is engaged in a real war with a determined enemy who wishes our destruction. Quotes from the jihadist leaders abound proving that our demise is their intent. Usama bin Ladin and followers have been very plain spoken with regards to their goals. If you which to read their various pronouncements, do a google search.

With respect, and with no intention of personal attack upon you, I must posit that it is your position (if I understand it correctly) that lacks evidence.

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roachboy

what the general position is--i'll route this through the situation in france, which i know better--you have the rise of far right political movements like the front national in response to problems to do with the status of the nation in the context of the e.u. (among other things, but for simplicity's sake, and because once again i post while on the run). the basic dynamic of their politics in this regard is to force a definition of the nation around religious/ethnic criteria by using the question of nroth african immigration and--in particular--the persistence of islam within these populations--how it has worked in france is that the north african population is defined as an internal other, with religion and race being the wedge. the result of this move (as it circulates publically, through the press coverage of actions, through the pluralism of coverage) is that france, say, gets defined reciprocally--france is white and catholic--the question of french identity gets re-articulated on those grounds. in a situation characterized by an increasing defunctionalization of the nation-state, this argument resonates because it speaks to anxieties that operate at a number of registers (economic, social, etc.) by condensing them around matters ot identity articulated in these terms.

it looks like something parallel is happening in the netherlands, and that it forms a kind of context for thinking about all this--in this reading, the agressor discursively is teh far right. they are the parties who draw the lines, they are the parties who set up the kind of "culture clash" view.

i do not think anything about what ustwo has been posting is adequate as an explanation for what is happening--instead it is simple recapitulation of the logic particular to these neofascist groups as if that logic explained the situation in general.

that is an outline of my position.
what i find fascinating is how easily american conserrvative ideology dovetails into what is understood as neofascist ideology in france (again becaue i know the situation there best).

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

Roachboy it really doesn't matter what your views are on this issue. The issue will force its hand sooner or later, and the declining populations of Europe will soon face a crisis. At some point there will be enough fear of the balance of power shifting that full scale violance will erupt, and the 'neo-fascists' will become the dominant parties of Europe yet again. They are already gaining sizeable vote shares, and that will only continue to grow.

What I offer is a last ditch attempt to avert such a crisis by forcing the issue now. I do not expect Europe to follow as the European leaders are currently to weak willed.

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irateplatypus

good post roachboy, i think you cut to the heart of the discussion...

so you've described the way that the european conservatives frame the discussion... but i'm still unclear as to why you consider their model to be either inadequate or unjust. what if what it means to be french actually is to be a white catholic who has a penchant for cheese and wine? i know that is a gross trivialization of the french way of life, but from my brief visits to france it has been made clear to me that the north african population in france (look to marseilles for a prime example) does not understand or identify with any concept of what it means to be french in the way the historically traditional inhabitants do. the divide between the traditional french and their north african immigrants goes much further than religion and skin color. a country is far more than its geographic location for the people who live and work in it. i understand what you're saying about france... i'm not sure i grasp your objection to it.

if you object to framing the discussion around cultural/religious/traditional grounds... in what other way would you understand the situation? if those criteria are irrelevant, then you would soon end up with a france-shaped morocco on your hands. surely you can't fault any frenchman for considering that undesirable.

hopefully this side-discussion about muslim immigrants in france has something relevant to say to the situation in the netherlands.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Aladdin Sane

roachboy wrote
"i do not think anything about what ustwo has been posting is adequate as an explanation for what is happening--instead it is simple recapitulation of the logic particular to these neofascist groups as if that logic explained the situation in general.

that is an outline of my position.
what i find fascinating is how easily american conserrvative ideology dovetails into what is understood as neofascist ideology in france (again becaue i know the situation there best)."

Your main objection seems to be that the French neofascists may have stumbled upon the truth about the religious and cultural nature of the conflict we now face. Look, a pig may be able to sniff out a truffle, but that doesn't make it a culinary expert. During the 1940s, German fascists supported euthanasia and abortion, as does the Dutch state today. Does that mean that the current Dutch government is fascist? Hardly. I could point to areas where the American left and Pol Pot were in agreement. That doesn't mean the American left favors genocide.

I hope you will respond with evidence of why the fight against these Islamofacists should not be viewed in terms of a clash of culture. I for one, cannot understand how it can be viewed in any other context.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Dragonlich

Roachboy et al.

I'd say most Dutch people and most Muslims want to live in peace. I'm pretty sure most Muslims even share a lot of our values. It's not the mainstream that's the problem, generally; it's the extremists on both sides that fuck things up for the rest of us. A problem when dealing with this particular situation is that most of the extremists have no problems whatsoever of blending into the mainstream crowd. That makes it nigh impossible to find them and stop their lies. One solution is to talk to the moderates, and hope they'll betray/change their extremist brothers, one solution is to kick them all out. The former solution is the way of political correctness, the left, the liberals, etc - it takes a long time, and doesn't appear to work because of that. The latter solution is the direct "easy" approach, which appeals to a lot of people because of it's supposed simplicity and timespan.

Ustwo and others also seem to feel that the problem with Islam in the west goes deeper than that. They seem to say that there is a fundamental difference between the Islamic culture and the European culture, a difference that is so great that it is (nearly) impossible to bridge.

I feel that there might be such a fundamental difference; if it is there, it's religion, and the history of that religion. Europeans have been moving to a secular society since the middle-ages, whereas the Muslims have not. The difference may seem small, but after centuries of cultural development, it's become huge.

It may be possible to find common ground, as we are all fundamentally humans, but that takes time. We might need to compromise on some of our most deeply-rooted ideas, something that's hard, if not impossible. For example, when we look at the position of women in society, it's kind of hard to compromise - either she's equal to men, or she's subordinate. I can't see how there can be a compromise over that... The same goes for many different subjects.

Dragonlich

Oh, I can!

- One can see it in the context of a power struggle. Muslim states are less powerful than European ones, and they want to be able to boss us around. Muslim extremists fit into this picture because they believe Islam is superior to Western culture.
- One can see it as a class struggle, in the Marxist sense. Muslims in the West are generally low-paid, and they want to fight their evil oppressing bosses.
- One can see it as a battle between good and evil, where one side is out to destroy the other. That's probably the extremists' viewpoint.

I could probably make up a few others...

Pacifier

A question to dragonlich, I've just read some more informations about Theo van Gogh and do you think he was a fair dealing, constructive critc of islam?
From what I've read o far I would call him a racist asshole (he called Muslims "goatfuckers" and Mohammed a paedophile). But perhaps this was just his way of "artistic provocation".

Of course this would in no way justify the murder, but I'm just wondering.

BTW: The latest movie "submission" can be downloaded here:
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2655656

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Lebell

Well, just for the record, Mohammed was a paedophile.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Aladdin Sane

Damn! I believe any discussion of van Gogh's views is a subtle admission that well, maybe this "racist asshole" deserved to have his head sawed off! Afterall, he was a "rightwinger." Theo van Gogh may have offended many a Muslim, but if they choose to live in a western liberal society, being offended is simply something they will have to live with. That's the nature of our culture. That's what it means to be tolerant. And this gets to the very heart of our discussion. The radical muslims do not want to assimilate. Instead, they demand that their host culture change to reflect their beliefs.

Democracy DEMANDS open debate and the expression of even the most unpopular ideas-- how many times have you heard that from people who are defending "art" that insults and mocks Jesus, Mary, Christianity, and other religious and cultural icons?

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

martinguerre

Mmm...fire quenching gasoline. Nothing else like in the world.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

martinguerre

" I believe any discussion of van Gogh's views is a subtle admission that well, maybe this "racist asshole" deserved to have his head sawed off!"

Any discussion? The proper way to honor someone who died in part because of his outspoken views is to NOT discuss those views and the effect of their espousal? Now, call me crazy, but that doesn't make a whit of sense.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Aladdin Sane

I agree that one can "see" the conflict in any of the ways you have postulated. But which hypothesis most closely matches with the situation on the ground. How do the terrorists view it? What do they say their goals are? What do their actions reveal?

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.