Nirvana

"There are always alternatives, but perhaps these aren't acceptable to us modern people. We seem to be unable to deal with groups of people refusing to follow our way of life. If people misbehave and terrorize everyone else, we apparently are too civilized to put an end to it. We're always trying to understand them, to help them, but perhaps that's part of the problem? I'd say that by trying to understand and help them, we're reinforcing their idea that they're the victims?

As an example of the Dutch version of this: a couple of years ago, there were reports in the media about a group of Maroccan kids running amok in a certain area of a large city. They demanded a place to hang out (or else). What'd we do: we gave them a building to hang out in. IMO we should have send in dozens of police officers in riot gear and kicked the **** out of them...

The "we're the victim" reaction is reaching really silly levels. We've had large groups of people (Muslims) protesting because a known violent (Islamic) guy, threatening people with large knife, was shot by police. His friends and family demanded an investigation (and conviction of that police officer) because the "victim" was a good person, and hadn't done anything. They're *never* at fault, it's always the rest of us.

This seems to be the international norm with many Muslims: it's always the West, the US and/or the Jews keeping them down. It's never their own fault.

(I'm kinda frustrated about this... hence the massive generalization.)"

I agree with you. in that situation with the kids demanding a place to hang out, i am just surprised that is how the community responded. because they want something and act uncivilized to get it, they should get what they demand for?

i think you're right about the whole "victimization" problem. if they see themselves as victims all the time, then is everyone else who is at fault. the media is definetely partly at fault, but it is time for them to take responsibility. i too am sick of " its the US, the jews, 'white man's society' that is at fault" mentality that so many people have.

Aladdin Sane

I have spent lots of time in Holland. I married a Dutch girl and brought her to Texas. I have lots of friends and family there. I'm not sure if the Nederlanders I know represent a cross-section of Dutch society, but I do know that they don't seem to "get it," at least from my point of view. They seem to see the Muslims as victims, and believe that Muslim's have been "pushed" into being angry and violent. In other words, they seem to accept the victimization routine discussed above. Like Nirvana and others here, I see this as putting more fuel on the fire. In a way it is analogous to the 1930s when no one dared stand up to Hitler, and we all know how that ended.
My question for the Nederlanders here:
Which way does public opinion seem to be going now? Will Rotterdam have to be destroyed (for example), before people realize just how grave the situation has become?

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Nirvana

I wonder what the parents are doing or saying when these children are running around the city causing problems. not to say the US doesnt have a problem with violent teens causing havoc, but this situation in the netherlands seems to be very arab/muslim Vs. Dutch.

Nirvana

i edited this post because I didn't want to create any hateful prejudices towards any group of people.

Dragonlich

Aladdin Sane: I'd say the public opinion is slowly moving towards "the right". Especially with the cartoon row, and the reactions we see from Muslims living in Europe, people seem to feel it's gone too far. Politicians are starting to take notice, but that may have a lot to do with the upcoming (local) elections.

Nirvana: I'd say the parents aren't doing or saying anything. And it's mostly Maroccan vs Dutch. We don't have a lot of problems with Turkish kids. One of the reasons could be that a lot of the Maroccan immigrants came from a rather backwards, rural background, where kids are raised by the community. Often, the mothers don't have any power over their sons, while the father is too busy working. Hardly a situation where kids learn to distinguish right from wrong. A lot of these kids have a very twisted sense of morality, if they have any. To make matters worse, some of the parents don't really care that their kids are misbehaving, because the west is evil anyway.

Nirvana

Thank you Dragonlich. i was not aware you had a Turkish minority as well. we have the same problem with rowdy teens in the USA of ALL backgrounds, so I can definetely relate. it really is a shame that when people move to a different country that they can't assimilate to a certain degree. i myself am an immigrant and I didn't have to abandon my old culture or heritage in any way to become what I see myself to be a full American.i see myself as 100% percent american because while i do retain my heriatge, i eat american food, i listen to american music, I appreciate everything this country has given me and i never once view myself as an outsider, but an equal to each and every other american living in this country. replace "america" with almost any other country and i'm sure that many posters will agree. i know it is harder for many of the older generations to change something that they have been used to their entire lives because that is almost all that they know. That is no excuse for the younger generations.