To the tilted left, show'em or fold

[Ustwo]

Ok Tilted left, its time to lay our cards on the table.

You don’t like the patriot act (we already had this discussion) and you think America is MORE in danger of a terrorist attack because of Bush.

What I would like to hear from you is how would you protect the US from future terrorist attacks?

To prevent 9/11 mark II, what would you do differently?

[The_Dunedan]

I'm not leftist, but I'll take a crack at it.

1: Remove all US troops from foreign soil. Let the world change it's own diapers. This not only saves us money, is Constitutional, and saves American lives, it removes Osama & Co.'s "Land of Mohammad" excuse. Simultaneously, make it clear that attacking the US would be the -ultimate- bad idea. Put large bounties on the heads of Terrorist leaders and let the Free Market do the rest: I gaurantee you that Sandline and Executive Outcomes would be more than happy to lend us a hand.

2: Cease all foreign-aid payments, -starting- with the $15B/year we throw down that hole called Israel. Let them have their own economies and quit leeching off ours.

3: Get out of the weapons-sales buisness, -starting- with Israel. Aside from not throwing away money, it'll prevent them from selling any more of our designs to the Chinese.

4: Withdraw from the UN and kick them out of NYC. No more of our tax-dollars going to regimes that fund terrorists.

5: Put a big, strong leash on the CIA. Osama wouldn't be 1/2 the problem he is now if the CIA hadn't taught him his trade back in the 80's.

6: Enforce and respect the 2nd Amendment. The last thing some terrorist wants is to be shot before he has a chance to kill any Infidels.

7: Re-instate the Militia system in the Several States. See ( 6 ).

8: Energy independance: once again, let's quit indirectly funding these people. In the short term, quit selling Alaskan oil to the Japanese and allow limited drilling on the North Slope. Encourage the development of alternate-energy sources through tax breaks. Legalize the production of industrial hemp in order to extract Hemp Oil for conversion to Bio-diesel.

9: Decriminalize drugs. This would drive the price of such things down, depriving Terrorists of yet another source of income.

10: Ditch the Patriot Act, along with all "victimless crime" laws. This would allow law-enforcement to focus it's attentions and money on -real- criminals, like Terrorists, while protecting the unalienable Rights of Americans.

In other words, I propose a 3-pronged strategy.
1: Remove their excuses to operate against us.
2: Strangle them economically.
3: Make it very difficult to operate in the US, and utterly destroy all those who do.

[irateplatypus]

hate to pull out the carpet beneath ya ustwo... but this member of the tilted right doesn't like the patriot act either.

however, i do think people get overly histerical about it, or kid themselves into thinking the democrats have a less invasive solution... but i would trade less security for more freedom.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

hate to pull out the carpet beneath ya ustwo... but this member of the tilted right doesn't like the patriot act either.

however, i do think people get overly histerical about it, or kid themselves into thinking the democrats have a less invasive solution... but i would trade less security for more freedom.

No law says you can't post what you would do either

[Lebell]

Here are some thoughts, although I really don't fall to the political right or left.


1) Get armed pilots on our airplanes.

2) Identify moderate Islamic organizations and aid them, so as to address the root cause for some of the hatred; poverty and hopelessness.

3) Take the leash off Israel. Let them invade Syria, bomb Iranian nuclear facilites, finish the wall, whatever. The faster they can unilaterally withdraw from the Palestinians areas, the better off they will be.

4) Double or Triple the number of troops in Iraq, and wage total war on those areas that won't surrender. Then get elections going.

This will turn into Vietnam if we keep going on half assed.

5) Racial profiling of immigrants/visa applicants/airplane travelers.

Sorry, but the demographics make it clear. Most terrorists are not little old ladies from Cleveland, but males of middle eastern origin, between 18 and 40.

6) Get out of the UN and kick them out of NYC. They have become another League of Nations.

[Bookman]

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

I'm not leftist, but I'll take a crack at it.

1: Remove all US troops from foreign soil. Let the world change it's own diapers. This not only saves us money, is Constitutional, and saves American lives, it removes Osama & Co.'s "Land of Mohammad" excuse. Simultaneously, make it clear that attacking the US would be the -ultimate- bad idea. Put large bounties on the heads of Terrorist leaders and let the Free Market do the rest: I gaurantee you that Sandline and Executive Outcomes would be more than happy to lend us a hand.

2: Cease all foreign-aid payments, -starting- with the $15B/year we throw down that hole called Israel. Let them have their own economies and quit leeching off ours.

3: Get out of the weapons-sales buisness, -starting- with Israel. Aside from not throwing away money, it'll prevent them from selling any more of our designs to the Chinese.

4: Withdraw from the UN and kick them out of NYC. No more of our tax-dollars going to regimes that fund terrorists.

5: Put a big, strong leash on the CIA. Osama wouldn't be 1/2 the problem he is now if the CIA hadn't taught him his trade back in the 80's.

6: Enforce and respect the 2nd Amendment. The last thing some terrorist wants is to be shot before he has a chance to kill any Infidels.

7: Re-instate the Militia system in the Several States. See ( 6 ).

8: Energy independance: once again, let's quit indirectly funding these people. In the short term, quit selling Alaskan oil to the Japanese and allow limited drilling on the North Slope. Encourage the development of alternate-energy sources through tax breaks. Legalize the production of industrial hemp in order to extract Hemp Oil for conversion to Bio-diesel.

9: Decriminalize drugs. This would drive the price of such things down, depriving Terrorists of yet another source of income.

10: Ditch the Patriot Act, along with all "victimless crime" laws. This would allow law-enforcement to focus it's attentions and money on -real- criminals, like Terrorists, while protecting the unalienable Rights of Americans.

In other words, I propose a 3-pronged strategy.
1: Remove their excuses to operate against us.
2: Strangle them economically.
3: Make it very difficult to operate in the US, and utterly destroy all those who do.

Agreed. Great point about drugs (the war on drugs). I just would not call Israel a "hole" because you wont get a decent debate out of many after doing that.

My two cents...
1. Purge the administration and all it's advisory boards of individuals (whom which may form groups with eachother) who are loyal to a country other than USA.

[Superbelt]

I will hit one of the biggest goals we are faced with. Realizing why they hate us and what we need to do to stop/reverse that.

Pull our forces out of foreign nations. That's how we got in this problem in the first place.
To understand the conflict you need only look back at Arabian history. Their colonial period stole from them their sense of self and culture. When they got their independence through the 50's and 60's they realized what they lost in the period. Afghanistan 1 wasn't bad to them because we were only funding their fighters. But when we did Gulf War 1 it was OUR fighters, not Arabs. It SHOULD have been Arabs. Many Islamic leaders were trying to convince SA and other US friendly governments to not let us fight that fight and leave it up to regional forces. Nothing would have been wrong to them with us funding a coalition to beat back Saddam. It was our presence there and establishment of bases that pissed off people like Osama. Osama, by the way was a Hero from Afghanistan until Gulf War 1. Our presence in the region brought back old memories of the colonial period. It appears to THEM that we were creating an empire.
So, we need to pull out our troops and use diplomace and Arabian coalitions to keep the peace in the region. We must never attempt to assert authority over any soverign nation. Leave that job to the regions people to do.

[guy44]

1. Significantly scale back unnecessary military expenditures and give that money to the CIA, FBI, and Homeland security. Bushco spends billions researching antiquated crap like ABM (anti-ballistic missiles) that don't even work, while our borders are unsecure. We need to check a huge percentage of cargo, not 2%. Etc.

2. Formulate a plan for getting out of Iraq. Frankly, its awful, and we need to get out eventually. I don't mean soon, but in the 5-7 year range. We need to rebuild our ties with allies, as well, as international peacekeeping troops will be required.

Actually, most of the stuff the administration has proposed isn't bad (aside from their whole, who needs the constitution thing). They just underfund it and only propose these things for votes, all the while giving more money to large contractors and underfunding homeland security.

I would also return the bill of rights to its rightful place in American discourse, and not round up over 5,000 people (as Ashcroft did) while convicting 0 people (as Ashcroft did).

[mml]

First of all, I don't hate the Patriot Act. I feel that much of the act is vital and important. There are several parts which are simply too invasive(which I think have been discussed ad naseum) and we must ensure that the term "terrorist" is not used too frivolously in investigations and prosecutions. This legislation was rushed together with far too little discussion and consideration. Fortunately, they put sunset clauses on it so that we have a second chance to get it right.

As far as our being less secure, I think this has also been discussed ad naseum, but it is nevertheless a reality. If I had my druthers, we would not have rushed into Iraq. I approve of President Bush asking for and congress approving the authorization to use force if necessary(remember we were told this was a vote for peace, not for war). We needed a big stick to get Saddam in line. This said, I would have prefered to complete the job in Afganistan and pursue an all-out hunt for Osama Bin Ladin while developing a truly international coalition against terrorism. I would prefer to have seen a greater emphasis on US border security, port security and airline security. I would prefer to see greater funding and assistance to first responders within the United States including training and communication upgrades. I would like to see a greater emphasis on the restructuring of our intelligence community and the tools (both technological and human) that they use. I would like to see a much stronger effort to track and monitor the exsisting supply of post-Cold War nuclear weapons that pose a serious risk of falling into the hand of terrorists. While all of this was going on, I would have begun to turn the heat up on Saddam while working with the international community. Saddam was certainly a threat, but much more of a potential threat, while Al Qaida was and still is an immediate threat. What many of you on the right don't seem to grasp is that by diverting our resources from acutally pursuing terrorists we have allowed them to regroup and infact by invading a country that contains some of Islams holiest sites we have only increased their numbers and provided them with white hot recruiting tools.

Additionaly this poorly planned war has put a serious strain on our military forces and we are seeing a reduction of people who are reupping in the Reserves. Add to all of this, the fact that this Administration has pushed throught absurdly large tax cuts and spent absurbly large amounts of money (FYI Bush has spent more on Domestic Issues and Military Expenditures, in real dollars, than the Clinton Administration) and created the largest deficits in our history which have the potential to seriously harm our long-term economic stabilty. Also, by implementing the "Bush Doctrine" we have only encouraged the development of nuclear programs in countries like North Korea and Iran, because we have made it clear that if you have some sort of ties to terrorists (strong in Afganistan, weak in Iraq) and do not have nuclear weapons, we may just attack. If you have strong ties to terrorism and do have nukes (Pakistan for one) we will work with you.

So, overall I do think we are less secure due to George Bush and his policies. Now, to be fair, I do have the advantage of hindsight in this matter, but I think if you look through my posts, I, just like John Kerry, have been pretty consistant on these points. Certain nuances may have morphed a bit as the situation in the world and at home have changed, but I am sure you won't hold that against me, since it is only common sense to adjust or alter tactics when they are proven wrong or if the situation in which they are being played out changes.

[martinguerre]

1. Heed the reccomendations of the 9/11 commission. Unlike a certain president i know, i thought it was a good idea to figure out what the hell happened. Accurate, non-politicized intelligence is not an option. It is a matter of life and death.

2. Reserve warmaking as a last resort. Visible displays of power are effective in the short run, but may be long term liabilities. Restraint, not abolition, is the key word.

3. Invest in understanding Islamic culture. Firing queer Arabic interpreters, like an army i know, is an example of what not to do. Promote cultural exchange, and not isolation on either side. America is not, in fact, the great Satan. That we're called that indicates we've got the Mother of All PR Problems.

4. Secure ports of entry, and commercial shipping. It's hardly getting the money it needs, and remains a cheap way for Al Queda to threaten us. The economic effects of a successful attack on a major port city could be devistating.

5. Re-evaluate support of forgien governments. Make aid more conditional. It's not enough that we give Isreal new F-16s. They do need 'em. But Palestinan kids need homes and food, too. More carrot may translate in to less stick.

That's for starters.

[Pacifier]

mostly what superbelt said,
rather start to find the reasons for terrorism and hate that fight the symptoms with blind rage.

rather start to guide the middle eats to freedom and democracy than bossing them around.

[powerclown]

Get in there with as many people as possible and establish elections and a democratically run government ASAP. Plant the seeds of tomorrow today, NOW. Stop with the pussyfootin around, stop with the abu ghraibs, stop with being aghast at the terrorist's methods, stop with the defeatist mentality, stop with the political manuevering. Current and future generations of Iraqis won't care about the HOW (within reason), only the why and what is. All hypotheticals of course.

[shakran]

Well first off I shoudl say that I realize that it's impossible to prevent a 9/11 version 2. It's like preventing someone from breaking into your car - if they REALLY want to do it, they're gonna do it no matter how much money, time, and technology you throw at the car.

However, no one is saying we have to make it easy for them.

1) secure the airports, because so far they're not. People are still getting knives on planes. While TSA is tackling people for bringing nail clippers in their carryon, other passengers are walking on with 3 inch folders. We have to revamp security again, and this time we have to do it right. Train the baggage screeners so they don't miss things like knives. Have random, totally secret checks run by sending "secret fliers" through security with weapons to see if they're caught. If not, the screener goes through the entire training process again. If he misses another weapon after the retraining, he's fired.

2) Secure the other transportation areas. I wandered all over an amtrak station while waiting to pick up a friend. I even got out to the tracks. I was looking at an old steam engine that was parked on a sidetrack, but they didn't know that. For all they knew I was planting a bomb on the track to blow it up as the amtrak rolled in.

3) Secure cargo - why arent' we inspecting the cargo on incoming container ships? Sure, that'll mean longer wait times for cargo to be delivered, but it'll also mean that a terrorist can't get a semi trailer load of C4 into the country on a ship.

4) reclassify SUV's as passenger cars, not trucks. Why? Because being classified as trucks means they don't have to meet passenger car average fuel economy restrictions. Short story: We're using a crapload more gas. We're dependant on foreign sources for our fuel, which is a security risk.

5) I agree with TD on this one - get the HELL out of the other countries. We are not the world's policeman. We do not have the responsibilty or the right to homogenize the entire world so they all behave like us. That's not only horridly arrogant (which is why people hate us so much), it's also immoral. We need to concentrate on running our country, not everyone else's.

6) do NOT pull out of the UN. Instead, what say we pay our freakin' dues and then start working to make it something worthwhile? It needs to have more authority - at this point in our development as a species we need a planetary government. Without one, peace is an impossibility.

7) reinforce our military so that we can fight a sustained war without having to call up the national guard to serve for years on end as is happening now. With our new ass kicking military serving as a backdrop, put the word out that anyone who attacks us WILL be destroyed. That means if bin Laden attacks us, he will be destroyed. We will no longer get distracted by people like Saddam - we will go after the people that hurt us, and only the people that hurt us. Make it clear that response to an attack will be immediate and extremely violent. We will completely destroy any group that moves against us. HOWEVER, we will never attack any group that has not first attacked us.

8) Immediately stop all training of non-American groups. I'm tired of training people who then take their newfound knowledge and use it to attack us. No matter how much we think we could help by training someone in how to kill people, we must not do it.

9) Forbid defense contractors from selling weaponry to ANYONE but the U.S. military.

10) Cut all foreign aid. Funnel that money into paying for programs here at home.

11) Secure the damn borders. We've got hundreds of people sneaking over here from Mexico every day. How hard would it be for a terrorist to get in that way? Lock 'em down.

That of course is just a partial list.

[roachboy]

the thread assumes the conservative view of the situation--that america does nothing to provoke or support regimes that provoke people to desperate acts, and that the problem is not one of changing how the states is or acts, but rather one of defending and order that cannot be understood as other than an unquestioned good--that premise is faulty, top to bottom.

there is no way to prevent another attack.

what then would make the situation better?

first and foremost, booting out the bush administration in november: consign them and their infantile worldview to the ash-heap of history as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

second, isolationism seems to me a pipe dream, there is no way to pull american forces back to within american borders.

you could start by trying to actually face what is unfolding already at the economic level, and is beginning to take shape politically: a more globally oriented type of capitalism.
and you could continue along this line by facing the consequences of capitalism in its various forms, left to itself and the "enlightened self-interest" of its agents--unequal distribution of all resources, economic, cultural, political; the brutalization of a significant segment of the world's population so that the american middle class can tweeze about in its present mode, and work to develop other legal and instutional frameworks to redirect capitalism in a less barbaric direction.

politic conflicts need to be addressed even-handedly.
failure to do this will eventually bring about a rain of 911s.
particularly once you combine political conflict with economic, cultural brutality.
in a context shaped by the international arms trade.

you would have to not limit information by using categories like "anti-american".
you would have to become less convinced of the singularity of america. maybe actually pushing the seperation of church and state wider would help.


it makes no sense for the americans to act unilaterally: iraq has shown (as if this was necessary, as if this was the first time) that there is nothing about being a leader of america that entails the direct grace from some god, such that there are no worries of the americans screwing up, and seriously screwing up.
in this assumption, the bush administration shows itself to be like any other monopoly--not able to see the world around it, it substitutes the world as it would like it to be and, worse, acts on that basis.

the nature of the economic and political beast is toward multilateral relations.
whether this is in itself a good thing or not is for the moment beside the point: there is no coherent way for the americans to pretend that their lives, their activities and their politics are not tightly implicated in the world.

personally, i think this mutation of economic activity is going to be the death of the outmoded idea of nation-states and the accompanying blight of nationalism along with it, in the longer run.

with this last bit in mind, i would support a less adversarial relationship with the un. but i do not think the un in its present form is going to be able to manage the problems that will emerge with an increasingly interconnected global capitalist environment.

because, despite the hallucinations of conservatives on the question of the un, it is built around the defense and maintenance of nation-states. as they become more obsolete, it will too.

something needs to be done to curtail the international arms trade.

i do not see the point of any of the security measures outlined above. i do not see why having pilots with guns will help anything, for example: i would rather they fly the planes. i do not see why the illusion of sealing american borders is coherent. it will not help.

you want to really make the situation better--educate folk from the earliest periods in a way that eliminates all traces of american exceptionalism, american patriotic history--orient people toward thinking internationally. encourage students to learn langauges other than english at levels that go beyond asking what time is that and whether the young girl over there is your sister.

be up front about the effects of cowboy capitalism and help them think about other ways of doing things.

and assume that, with these elements (and a host of others of parallel import) they will make a less barbaric capitalism, a less barbaric world.

[martinguerre]

Is this a fire and forget thread? Ustwo...we called...

[tecoyah]

What about your hand.....Ustwo, or did I just see it in the debate.

[phredgreen]

now now, don't get too personal. you guys have all shared some great points, many of which merit further discussion. instead of making faces at those who challenged you, why not continue the intelligent discussion?

[OpieCunningham]

Originally Posted by Lebell

Here are some thoughts, although I really don't fall to the political right or left.


1) Get armed pilots on our airplanes.

2) Identify moderate Islamic organizations and aid them, so as to address the root cause for some of the hatred; poverty and hopelessness.

3) Take the leash off Israel. Let them invade Syria, bomb Iranian nuclear facilites, finish the wall, whatever. The faster they can unilaterally withdraw from the Palestinians areas, the better off they will be.

4) Double or Triple the number of troops in Iraq, and wage total war on those areas that won't surrender. Then get elections going.

This will turn into Vietnam if we keep going on half assed.

5) Racial profiling of immigrants/visa applicants/airplane travelers.

Sorry, but the demographics make it clear. Most terrorists are not little old ladies from Cleveland, but males of middle eastern origin, between 18 and 40.

6) Get out of the UN and kick them out of NYC. They have become another League of Nations.

Maybe you're not aware of this - but pretty much ALL of those points are far, FAR to the right.

Maybe you're left on abortion or privacy, but in the confines of this topic, you are clearly nothing but rightwing.

Just a heads up for you.

[Halx]

My philosophy contains a lot of points that I will not spend the time getting into. The main deal is going after the reason WHY we got attacked in the first place: we butt our heads in affairs where we are not wanted. Radical islamic factions dont "hate us for our freedom" and they aren't maniacal killers. They are a different culture with different social values. Attacking them is only kicking the beehive.

Show their culture the respect it deserves (regardless of if it's values are different) and I guarantee you that they will not attack us.

There are only 2 reasons to attack the US: 1) You want to take over or 2) we are a direct threat to your culture. They didn't just attack us on 9/11 because they felt like it. They attacked us because we were doing in other countries what we are currently trying to do in Iraq.

I want to say that I don't expect many conservatives to agree with this point of view primarily because they've had 3 years of acceptable patriotism molding their tough, resolute minds. That's too bad, though, because my reasoning is all too logical to me.

I would like a response.

[gondath]

World opinion is the best deterrent to future terrorist attacks. We have to take away the image of the USA as an imperial aggressor and replace it with an image of honesty, respect, and a desire to be a part of the international community for more than our own interests. Take away their motivation to strike, and the terrorists will melt away.

[host]

1.) Declare an energy emergency. The U.S. population is about 6 percent of
world population. The U.S. consumes 20 million barrels of oil each day, of the
82 million barrel daily world production. The U.S. produces 7.8 million barrels
per day, and imports 12.2 million barrels per day.
<a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html">http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html</a>
<a href="http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/business/9752045.htm">http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/business/9752045.htm</a><p>
There is only a one percent cushion of world oil production vs. consumption.
At the current market price of $50 per barrel, U.S. oil imports cost $610 million
per day. These $220 billion annual foreign oil payments represent one third
of the U.S. $600 billion 2004 trade deficit.
World GDP total in 2003 was $51.5 trillion. U.S. GDP was $11 trillion. Look
around you.....with oil at a record high price, many Americans are driving
the largest, heaviest, and fuel consumptive vehicles that they have ever
owned. Motor fuels account for 45 percent, or 9 million barrels of the
20 million barrel daily U.S. oil consumption.
So...the U.S. share of world GDP is 21.3 percent, and U.S. oil consumption is
24.4 percent. Can't the most inventive and technologically advanced nation in
the world achieve better energy efficiency vs. GDP than 8 to 7 ?
Canadian GDP is $1 trillion, 2 percent of world GDP, Canada consumes
1.7 million barrels of oil per day, or about 2 percent of world oil production.
Germany GDP is $2.3 trillion, 4-1/2 percent of world GDP. Germany consumes
2.82 million barrels of oil per day, 3.43 percent of world oil production.
Japan GDP is $3.58 trillion, 7 percent of world GDP, Japan consumes 5.3
million barrels of oil per day, 6.4 percent of world oil production.
<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html">http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html</a>
<p>
If the U.S. enjoyed the energy efficiency of Germany, we could consume
13.48 million barrels of oil per day to produce $11 trillion annual GDP. We
would import 6.5 million barrels of oil per day less than we do now.
We would lower our trade deficit by $118 billion per year, and, by increasing
the available daily world oil supply be 6.5 million barrels, or from a 1 percent
cushion between supply and demand, to an 9 percent cushion. The price
of oil would plummet, U.S. annual trade deficit could drop even further, and
U.S. foreign policy would not be held hostage to the issue of middle east
oil field security.

2.) Curtail the influence of large U.S. corporations in foreign policy. We are
now paying heavily for the damage caused by the 80's Reagan/Bechtel
regime. Was it a coincidence that Reagan Secretary of state George Schulz
was the president of privately held worldwide construction and energy contractor Bechtel, and Defense Secretary Weinberger was Bechtel's counsel? U.S. relations with Sadam Hussein were dictated by Bechtel's business interests:
<a href="http://www.williambowles.info/ini/ini-018.html">Bechtel Story and
Links</a>
<p>
Cheney, former CEO of oil services and construction giant Haliburton.
continues the traditon of using the U.S. foreign policy to advance the
business interests of U.S. multi-national corporations.

3.) Reduce U.S. defense spending from $400 billion annually by identifying
spending that benefits corporate defense giants at the expense of
the citizens. Stop government sponsered international arms sales.
Require Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Israel, and Nato countries to finance
and staff their own defense requirements without U.S. troops and
military aid.

4.) Set a realistic date for an Iraqi national election. Warn Iraqis that
we will withdraw all troops if ordinary, non-insurgent Iraqis do not make
a public effort to discourage violence by providing information of the
identities and location of people involved in violent resistance to Iraqi
police and the interim government. Inform Iraqis that no voting will be
possible in areas of Iraq where citizens do not condemn and work against
violence. Spend money on well publicized incentives for citizens who
cooperate. Reward areas that cooperate with accelerated infrastructure
repairs and upgrades. In 1966, U.S. troop level was 200,000. In 1969, the
troop level peaked at 543,000. Increasing the troops without increasing
the cooperation of ordinary Vietnamese did not increase security. If ordinary
Iraqis won't show support for the current efforts of our troops to preseve
their domestic security, we should convince them that we will pack up
and leave them to fend for themselves.

5.) Fund scholarships and student exchange programs between the U.S. and
major muslim countries. Find ways to lower the cost of air travel between
U.S. cities and major muslim cities. Increase the frequency of flights to
Muslim cities by promoting tourism. Increasing personal ties, awareness of cultural differences, and common interests will increase respect by
educating greater numbers of Muslims and Christians.
<a href="http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=52214&d=1&m=10&y=2004">Islam and West: Why We Do Not Get On and What to Do About It?</a>

6.) Work closely with Canada and Mexico to find solutions to border security.
Explore long term solutions to North American social problems, including a
serious examination of the pros and cons of forming an E.U. style,
North American confederation. Avoid watching Mexico decline from overpopulation and official corruption while eventually commiting large numbers of troops and higher and longer walls to secure the southern U.S.
border.

7.) Decriminalize drugs, eliminate the death penalty, fund legal aid to insure
equal representation for all citizens accused of a crime. Overturn the Patriot
Acts. Examine and try to find solutions to the more frequent gun related
violence and criminal activity in the U.S. vs. Canada. Reduce the level of
fear in Americans and reap the potential financial benefits of reduced law
enforcement, criminal court, and prison expeditures.

8.) Attempt to fund and staff the INS with the intent of promoting a fair
immigration policy, as far as enforcement and immigration quotas. Promote
visa and immigration preference with countries that actively assist in
convincing their citizens to respect our borders and our laws.

9.) Curtail relations with undemocratic foreign leaders. Stop setting the
hypocritical example to the world of conducting close diplomatic relations
with monarchy governments, such as Saudi Arabia's. The U.S. would have
that option if we enjoyed the energy efficiency of the Germans. Stop
sponsoring and/or installing dictators in other nations in the interest of
corporate and short term expediency. Stop meddling in non human-rights
related internal affairs of foreign countries.

10.) Attempt to re-establish the "honest broker" status and perception that
the U.S. had earned, in the view of Israelis and Palestinians during the
Clinton administration. Make full use of Jimmy Carter's talents and reputation
to immediately and tirelessly work at achieving Palestinian autonomy.

11.) Signifigantly increase funding and manpower to gain control of
weapons grade nuclear material and the deactivation of nuclear weapons.
Work closely with allies to discourage creation of new nuclear powers and
form allied coalitions to focibly disarm rogue nations like North Korea or
Iran, rapidly and predictably.

12.) After implementing a signifigant number of the above examples, put the
U.N. on notice that it must embark on a similar administrative and policy
"makeover" if it wants to continue having the U.S. as it's host country,
receiving U.S. financial support, and U.S. diplomatic participation. Reduce
the numbers of foreigners with diplomatic immunity in each foreign U.N.
mission.

13.) Eliminate the U.S. electoral college, change the U.S. president's term
to a single, 6 year period. Prohibit congress from transferring it's constitutional power to declare war to any other branch of government.

[Superbelt]

To accentuate host's first point, read the sig.

[roachboy]

agreed entirely on the energy question with the host and superbelt. should have mentioned it.

[martinguerre]

kudos to those who mentioned energy dependance...with that monkey on our back, we're always going to be involved in the mideast. support of regimes there has been one unmitigated disaster after another: the Shah, Saddam, the house of saud...needing to go in and bail out of the kuwaitis. Our policy has produced neither stability nor democracy...and i don't see it doing that anytime soon. It's not our first priority there.

phred...i guess the reason why i started poking Ustwo is that this thread was issued as a challenge. He implied that the left had no reasonable ideas for making America and the world safer. It's a libel...and one that has hurt our cause quite badly. So when we're given a chance to prove it wrong...and come out here with a whole list of thought out and reasoned ideas...it's sorta annoying that the other side doesn't even show up for the debate.

[Halx]

Where ARE the righties? You're absolutely right, martinguerre.

[Dostoevsky]

Well I guess I'm a 'righty' relative to the mean on the TFProject but I don't have a conservative stance on the Iraq issue. I tend to be more fiscally conservative on domestic issues, yet socially liberal. Odd, yes, I know.

I agree that we need to pull out of Iraq and stay out of the rest of the world's business. I've been living in Croatia for a month now and I had no idea what animosity Europeans feel for us, even in countries we don't political tension with. Many people I've talked to here compare GW to Adolf Hitler! They think the war is all about money and oil. I can't even discuss politics here anymore.

I wish we would cut foreign aid and pull our troops out of foreign countries. Actually, I agree with all the points 'The Dunedan' made in the first reply on this thread. We need to stop worrying about international events so much and concentrate more on domestic policies. Our government hasn't really done much domestically since we invaded Iraq, although the economy has recovered.

I share in the disappointment you all feel with the Iraq situation. I don't feel like I have a good option in the election this fall, although I will vote for Bush because Kerry scares me on domestic issues. I don't think either candidate will attempt to enact any of the measures we have discussed on this thread, which is too bad. I am just frustrated in Europe right now.