llama8

Well in the time it has taken for me to sleep this has really blown up!

I must say though some excellent points on both side of the debate. Although I still agree that two wrongs don't make a right the first wrong should never occured and then could never be used as fuel to put on the fire.

It's also a shame that the acts of a very small minority have been used as a reason that a man was brutally murdered (I guess you could argue he would have been killed anyway but that's a topic for another thread!).

Mehoni

Quote:

1. the prisoners were either criminals or captured enemy soldiers.

WRONG. People were suspected to be criminals. Some were innocent. You should read some iraqi blogs.

Even if they were criminals or captured enemy soldiers it doesn't justify torture or humiliation.

The Geneva Convention still applies.

Quote:

2. they were humiliated for purposes of gaining intelligence.

Which is still illegal. Intelligence gained by torture is also highly questionable because you had people admitting to being witches years ago, also by torture. Do you believe in witches and witchcraft?

Quote:

3. the prisoners have decent odds of having american blood on their hands (which, is a part of war. i understand that)

See 1. + "Decent odds of having american blood on their hands" also equals "Decent odds that they are completely innocent"

Quote:

4. ostensibly, the devices used by the americans were being used to save american lives.

Yes, raping prisoners with lightsticks and letting dogs bite them is surely saving american lives.

Quote:

5. their faces were covered, the photos were taken and leaked.

So? They still suffer. They still know about what happend to them. They were there. Or are you telling me I can torture people and take pictures of them aslong as I don't show their faces?


His face is shown, btw.

Quote:

6. sparked an intense investigation, 7 soldiers already summoned to a courts-martial.

I hope this investigation and their punishments will take place in Iraq.


--

Some reading material for you:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.ihath.com/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...215344,00.html

__________________
There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.

HarmlessRabbit

You were justifying torture. Read your first point. You are saying "this is wrong, BUT, aren't they all criminals anyway?"

If that isn't justification, what is it?

Also, as I said, they weren't all criminals. You're presuming them all to be guilty. Many of them were just rounded up for being in the general area during an attack.

So, let's put this in perspective. Unknown to you, your next door neighbor is selling crack to children. While you're at his front door borrowing the lawn mower, the police swoop in, arresting you as well. While you're in custody, they decide to interrogate you because they assume you are guilty. They start out with a little beating; then they they let an attack dog loose on you; then they strip you naked; then they put you in a pile of other naked prisoners; then they take photos of you masturbating.

Is this ok? It's all in the name of stopping crack dealers, right? And you wouldn't be in prison unless you were guilty, right?

Perhaps you could address some of my points or Mehoni's points?

Grimlok

Yes... everything the police do to you in the name of stopping crack is o.k. What the hell are you borrowing a lawnmower from a crack dealer for anyway?

The Beheading of a person is worse than the "so called" torture the US Inflicted on the prisoners. Before the beheading was made public I was not happy with the actions of the soldiers and their abuse of prisoners... But afterwards... all I can think was... What if the US started Beheading all the captives whether they were Guilty or innocent. I mean the fact is, the guy that got beheaded was innocent... in fact, he went over to help the Iraqi's rebuild their country yet he was targeted and you know damn well he's not the first.

You know, people make statements about how what they did is no worse than what we did. People even say us invading them was wrong and talk about their innocents dying. What about our innocents? What about good people who go over their to do good and end up getting killed in retaliation for pictures? Some of you say America is getting what it deserves yet you also say two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact is... there's a power vaccuum over there right now and the people who are shooting at us, the people who hate us hate the fact that they aren't going to be in control over there. Without conflict they have no reason to exist and now their existence is being threatened.

The Cool thing about America is that we acknowledged the fact that we stepped over the line in the torturous humiliation of the prisoners and we're going to punish the people who did it. The Cool thing about America is that we can debate whether it was right or wrong without the threat of Death... because the regime that was over there before did not care for debate. In fact, if you spoke badly of those in command, you were imprisoned, tortured, your tongue was cut out, or you were killed and your family was killed also. The prisoner that's talking about how he was abused can FREELY go on television and share his story where as before... he'd be dead.

The fact is... whether you agree with our invasion or not... things are better for the Iraqi people now. They're finding a voice and they're using it... although some choose to speak with violence... and those people are the minority.

__________________
Your future looks very very grim!

llama8

I'm not saying the US got what it deserved. I am saying two things don't make a right though.

I just can't see how anyone has a right to compare the physical and mental torture on one hand and death on another. I haven't experienced either and if anyone has experienced both maybe they could let us know a comparison?

I'm know of several cultures where the utter humilation of themselves by their captives would be considered worse then dying. You can't say one is "worse" then the other.

I don't think its right to hide behind the fact that they are now all "free" as a reason to torture. I'm sure most Iraqi's are happy at being free but I'm sure they're not happy that their prisons resemble the type of 'justice' which was common in times consigned to the history books.

I always thought that you are innocent until proven guilty and it's up to the accuser to find the evidence and not beat it out of you.

irateplatypus

you entire argument is based upon the presupposition that i condone/justify the US's actions... i roundly deny that. i won't address you or mehoni's "point" because they aren't points. they're built on what you wanted me to say, not what i said.

it is entirely reasonable to condemn two separate actions... yet consider one of those to be much worse than the other. i was clearly responding to posters equivocating the two.

i've clearly been characterized as someone who condones torture of human beings, letting dog's loose on prisoner's and that i might think torture is fine as long as the faces aren't shown. where i come from, that necessitates an apology rather than a rebuttal.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

yournamehere

Oh really?
2 minutes of semi-public nudity is as bad as having your head sawed off with a dull knife?

Are you telling us that, forced to choose, you would have to THINK ABOUT IT?

You need not look any further than the victim's last name to know the <i>real</i> motive for this senseless act of barbarism.
Those cowards will use anything as an excuse to carry out their twisted acts of cold blooded murder.

And it appears to be quite contagious.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

punkass_hippie

ok, here goes my rant:

firstly....not all the atrocities occuring in the american prison for iraqi's (abu grad....not sur how it is spelt) have been shown to the public. secondly, other abuses have been showing up in other iraq prisons run by the americans, not just in abu grad. now, lyndy england states that she was trained for the distrubution of mental torture. how unsurpirisng. but to muslims, being naked infront of others is extremely demoralizing!!
and what about the half-dozen or so homicide investigations that are going on regarding deaths at american POW camps? and this is only in iraq... what about afganistan? what about guantanamo bay? have the american people forgotten about that war too? how civilians have been held for over a year, with NO CHARGES laid, and with no contact to their families? what about the fact that no human rights commision has been allowed anywhere near guantanamo? or that other human rights watch have been worried about iraqi prisoners from the get-go?

now, if the american press was allowed to publish such information, i am certain that the american people would join the rest of the world condemming such acts of cruelty and inhumanity.

there is no way that Mr. Berg's murder was justified;
there is no justification for the presence of troops in iraq;
pre-emptive war is not a strategy for freedom, but a strategy for slavery.
no act of abuse can be justified, no matter what the degree, even if it is for information! what a shallow mind it must take to imagine that. and there is still no proof of weapons of mass destruction. there are none. the irai people cannot afford to arm themselves when they were still being bombed by the united states of america.....the bombs havent stopped falling from desert storm, ten years ago. these people do not want or need the americans or the british there....they need countries like canada, the us, the uk to stop trade embargoes and to lift tarriffs so that the once prosperous and educated county can again thrive.

old proverb: "fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"

punkass_hippie

please, read mahoni's thread....there is real thought in that.

thanks mahoni for showing some insight....hopefully others will see it too.

cherriesue

I think that both were wrong

__________________
we die only once and for such a long time

irateplatypus

nearly everyone else does too. the poll question is asking "which is worse?".

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Sparhawk

So, if I pick the beheading, that means I hate muslims, and if I pick Nude pyramids, that means I hate America.

Ummmmm.... Yeaaahhhhh....

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

smooth

Don't forget the self-loathing and foolish bit--courtesy of our friendly admins.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

OFKU0

Or you can reverse it and have the opposite.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

pan6467

First, given the choice between rape, being tortured for days (these men had more than 2 minutes of torture), where I would relive that pain every day for the rest of my life or a relatively fast but painful death, I'm going to take the latter thank you. Ask a woman that was raped brutally and tortured and ask her which she would have preferred.

But what really pisses me off and not just you but an Admin for this board suggesting that the way I answered was an apparent loathing of my country and thusly a self loathing is dispicable. I happen to love myself, my family and my country in that order.

So do not tell me if I say something you dislike tells you I loath myself and my country because I do take that personally. What you are telling me is my opinion and my views if not shared by you are worthless and I must hate myself and my country because ONLY your views show love of country and self.

I answered a question, and I told how I FELT. I am sick and tired of not being able to go to my ancestors homes in Germany and Ireland and Italy without fear. Simply because I am an American and there are jerks here who live with this attitude that the US cannot do any wrong and laugh over torture. Which now added fuel to a war where my friends are now not only run the risk of being killed, but now tortured mercilessly then killed. Thank you Admins and people who supposedly love your country and self and think that the Iraqi torture was all too funny.

Laughing over torture is no better than being the torturer, which IS a form of self loathing because you are taking out your inadequacies on someone else.

Finally if you are implying Berg was Jewish by his last name...... I happen to know a few Bergs that are Catholic.

And if my rant about an admin gets me banned or in trouble then so be it. But noone has the right to tell me views = whether I love myself or not.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

sailor

I dont loathe my country, I loathe the people currently running it.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

irateplatypus

quite honestly, i would choose to be tortured/raped over having my head sawed off. obviously i've never been in either situation, but i'm almost certain that is what i'd chooose.

pan... i may have missed something in this thread, but i can't find anyone who is laughing at the situation. you usually seem pretty level headed, so i'm trying to find out where you got that from.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

ironman

HA HA LOL

__________________
If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

almostaugust

Yeah, one thing that pisses me off about these prisoner abuse photos is the way in which people are just passing it all off as some kind of joke or fraternity style stunt. HOW CULTURALLY INSENSITIVE CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE? Having your genitals laughed at by a woman, or wearing her panties on your head or being forced to masturbate with other men is the most heinous shit that can happen to you if you are a muslim man. I know that some of you guys might be sitting there reading this while masturbating, with panties on your head (i know i am), but please try to think outside the small sphere within which you live.

__________________
'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself
To hold on to these moments as they pass'

pan6467

Irate,

What is missing is that after Yournamehere attacked the way I answered. (Which is true I haven't been nor ever plan to be in either situation so honestly I can't answer but the way I feel at the time.)

He posted the Artelevision post about the loathing.

It's uncalled for and in my humble opinion saying that only that man's beliefs are right anyone who disagrees must loath self and country.

I know I'm ranting..... bad day marriage is going down the shitter, she hit me tonight simply because I was playing around and put frosting on her nose. Frasier ended and as stupid as it sounds that meant I lost a friend (see my entertainment posting for him). Really, thinking about relapse and gambling this weekend on the Preakness (which by thinking about it means I won't because life's bad days today are nothing but compared to the days when I gambled, so my sense of recovery is still ok.)

Maybe rationality is slightly askew in me. But I felt yesterday the same as I feel today about the loathing post. Just not able to word it properly.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Zeld2.0

I still stand by saying that neither is quantifiable and both are horrible...

But I'll leave you with a funny thing that's quite ironic and paints who we are dealing with - Lebanon's Hizbollah group (who wouldve thought) condemned the perpetrators for essentailly disrespecting everything about Islam...

I don't know really what to say when one group known for terrorism before is condemning another lol but its condemnation!

pan6467

From the Military itself the true documented tortures to date. How can people make excuses for this crap and then claim that those who complain about it hate the country? How can anyone argue this treatment gives the enemy more fuel to hate us and a greater desire to destroy us?

Little bit more than "nude pyramids and panties on the head"?
=====================================================================

Prisoner statements:

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the
phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a
chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the
wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed
against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and
perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and
intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one
instance actually biting a detainee.
===============================================================

Guard confessions and statements:

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees;
jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and
female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various
sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and
keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's
underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate
themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and
then jumping on them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box,
with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his
fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a
detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old
fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked
detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a
picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female
detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles)
to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least
one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
=============================================================================

The whole report is here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell...800-mp-bde.htm

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

yournamehere

<b>pan6467</b>,
Don't take everything so personally.
In my earlier post, I responded to two separate quotes, by two separate people.
My response to <b>ARTelevision's</b> quote was to him - not you - and it was based on the surprising (to me) general tone of a lot of the responses in the thread.

Also - if you're going to assert that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, then that must include those who disagree with you.

Although we as Americans are not perfect, I still don't think we're the bad guys. And even though I'm not saying, "My country right or wrong," I still have the utmost respect for and confidence in the vast majority of our military personnel over there.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

smooth

Oh please. The victim card played by pro-war people after they've disrespected anti-war people is very tiresome.

Someone pointing out that you've disrespected him or her is not impinging on your freedom to disagree--it's pointing out that you're either being rude to someone or silencing debate.

If you can't differentiate between disrespecting someone and just wording your different political opinion in a polite manner, I don't really know how to make it more clear.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

hrdwareguy

First off I'm glad this thread lasted more than the 20 posts it was prophesized to have before being closed.

Lots of good debate.

I would like to see the discussion get back to being a bit more civil and back toward the topic of the thread, or at least back to why this side or that side did this or that instead of the whole "It's just because you disagree with me and you suck because of it" If that keeps up, this thread will be locked in far less than another 20 posts.

__________________
Gun Control is hitting what you aim at

Aim for the TFP, Donate Today

Peetster

Pan, if you quote globalsecurity.org you'll force me to quote hannity.com to balance it out.

Let's not be too quick to use the term "torture". Even if some of the statements above are proven to be true, the fact is that they are unproven right now. "Alleged torture" is more precise, but still exagerates slightly.

llama8

Very good point.

In fact I've been really impressed with this thread and that's saying a lot in Tilted Politics!

Maybe the thread has run its course and the attacking of positions is just the next step but I've enjoyed reading all the sides of the argument. Lets not end on a sour note!

jarsh

argueing which is better, torture or death, will always be a matter of opinion so debating is pointless...unless you like to be heard then by all means, blabber on.

i like the dialog about causation even though some are a bit short-sighted, but i hope it's kept up.

stingc

Well, there have been allegations that US soldiers have killed some prisoners, but short of that, the beheading is much worse.

It seems to be common on both sides for revenge to be lopsided. After 4 americans were killed in Fallujah, US soldiers strafed the city killing some 600 people as I remember. I'm sure a lot more than 4 innocent iraqi's were killed in that. Frankly, dead is dead. It doesn't matter if you're killed with cannon fire or a knife.

Should revenge be equal, or should it exist at all? I think it depends on the situation, although plenty of people think only with their heart rather than their head. Stalin's quote on death seems quite appropriate here: "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

pan6467

Did you go to the sight? It is the article 15-6 Investigation of the 800th Military Brigade. Those facts quoted came from that investigation written by Major General Ryder.

How can you tell me not to call it torture when our own government calls it torture?

Is being sodomized with a chemical light and broom, stripped naked, raped, forced to clip wires to your penis, phosphoric fluid dumped on you, and so on, not considered torture? If it is not torture then what is it?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Yourname, IF you say you were replying to Art, in the same post berating me and I mistook the meaning, then I appologize, and I will believe that you did not mean offense by it.

So Yourname I do appologize.

Art, the post about loathing, in my opinion was a bit ambiguous (sp) and I saw people using it to burn others. To me personally, I do think you should have said more so that what you meant may not have been taken out of context. But it led me to believe, having read your past posts, that you were directing that to people who believed the military was wrong and should hold those who did the torture responsible.

I have been very outspoken in my support of the military, having been in the Navy and having friends still serving, I will not disparage the military. However I will hold accountable the actions of bad apples whether in the military, the DoD, or private civilian life. I do not loathe my country, I have differing views than you and some others, but it is not a hatred of my country. In my opinion, politics has gotten so partisan that no matter what you say someone can take it as hating the country or hating the freedoms we have or hate in general.

Anyway, Art I do appologize if I was mistaken. As I wrote, I was having a very bad day and my emotional state and reasoning may have been somewhat skewed.

If I took it out of context then to you Art, I sincerely appologize.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ARTelevision

My comment was directed generally at those who loathe our country. That was where my thinking stood at that time. I typically respond to general trends I may see in threads rather than individual posts. I almost never address anyone directly.

__________________
create evolution

Peetster

No, it's not. It's an agenda-driven site by John Pike.
From the site mission statement: They hope to be instremental in...While Pike's strenghts lie in his understanding of technology, and his imagery has been used frequently by Fox News and other conservative-leaning news agencies, one can not infer non-partisonship.

HINT: Official military sites end with .mil. Official U.S government sites end with .gov.

edwhit

What a few americans did to a few iraqi's in prison was terrible. The prisoners may have been innocent. It is doubful, but almost always possible.

Berg was innocent. Everyone knows he was innocent (except some conspiracy theory freaks). They did not care that he was innocent. They just wanted to punish america. But I do not believe for a second that he was killed because of the abuse news.

The murderers were not exactly the common iraqi citizen. They are terrorists. Terrorists kill innocent people all the time. What I DO believe is that the abuse stirred up enough people that they decided it was a convenient time to Slay him in the hopes of further turning people against the US.

I have talked to a friend that was raped and she feels it would not be better to be killed than tortured (thinking mainly of the rape part) Her thinking was that people don't always survive rape. Many people are psychologically ruined for life often taking their families with them. That is (or can be for some) a living death. She feels they are equally bad.

My thinking is that one has a chance to survive torture. One has NO chance to survive death.

What does it matter? This whole topic matters to me because I see Americans turning on our government and blaming our government for the beheading of an innocent man (who was trying to help innocent people). While the ripple effect often causes unfortunate events, it is not always the best logic.

In a perfect world we should all obey the laws perfectly. If I was alone in a room with someone that killed my best friend and raped a little girl I should give that person the same rights as an innocent man unjustly held in prison. However, if the opportunity came I would be hard pressed NOT to beat the crap out of him at the very least. It is wrong. I know.

Now wait a minute! I know, they were probably not all guilty of those crimes. I'm sure they just jay walked or something. As a responsible nation, we should NOT have raped any prisoners or sexually abused them. We should not have threatened to have them electrecuted or had our dogs bite them. Those guards did countless things they should not have done I'm sure.

But come on now. Throwing cold water on them? WHO CARES! Depriving them of sleep? I'm depriving myself of sleep right now. Some of those "abuses" are just pathetic. We are in the middle of a war. Get over it! Punish the bad guys no matter who they are and move on!

We admit our faults. Did the terrorists?

*Disclaimer*

It's really late and I get up in 2 hours for work. If something did not make sense I apologize.

Mehoni

Especially not since the man who CIA says took responsibility is from Jordan.. except the fact that CIA said he was killed a while ago. I guess he got nine lives.. well, eight now.

__________________
There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.

HarmlessRabbit

Well, see, the treatment was in violation of armed forces stated policy AND a violation of the geneva convention.

Perhaps you would like someone to keep you awake for three days with threats, then throw cold water on you, then perhaps leave you naked in a cold cell, then force you into an awkward position for hours on end.

I personally find this kind of belittling of the abuse of prisoners to be completely disgusting. Remember when Rumsfeld was complaining about Iraq violating the Geneva Conventions by putting our POW soldiers on television? As Paul Wolfowitz said, if our enemies treated our soldiers the way we treated Iraqis, we would consider it abusive and a violation of the Geneva Convention.

edwhit

I didn't say it was not against the geneva convention. In fact I said I know it is. I just DO NOT CARE! Yea I'm a heartless bastard. I can live with that. But I personally do not care much about the rights of terrorists.

Would I like it? Of course not. Who would. But then again the worst I've done is voice my distaste for terrorists and wish them much suffering. Have I plotted or had any part in causeing the suffering of innocent woman and children? No.


And by "punishing the bad guys and move on" I meant of course, punish the guards and or any officers that gave specific orders and move on.

HarmlessRabbit

Well, you said "who cares?" and the answer is "I do."

Judging by the news, a whole lot of other americans care too. To me, the proper reponse to state-sponsored torture is not to forgive the government when they say "oops, my bad, sorry!"

edwhit

That is my point. It is not like the people of iraq raised up in protest and murdered one of our own. No, it was done by someone who is responsible for killing innocent people already. He just had a nice justification that some people agree with to go with it now.

edwhit

You care and I respect that. I do regret the majority of the "atrocities" that a few of our soldiers caused. In fact I said they should be punished. I don't think that is a "oops, my bad, sorry" response.

Perhaps the only way to pay for the evil our soldiers did would be to end the war now and fire rumsfield? Yea whatever. It was terrible. Yes. It should be dealt with appropriately. Now how about we spend our energies on finishing what we started and get out.