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View Poll Results: Which is worse? Nude pyramids or beheading.
Nude pyramids and panties on the head. 17 26.15%
Sawing someone’s head off their body while still alive. 48 73.85%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:12 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Only problem we have right now is sort of - how can we finish it. We've got to solve that but right now we're somewhat checkmated.
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:36 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally posted by pan6467
We as a people and supposedly the greatest country cannot treat another's culture and belief's less than our own.
I don't see how you can say this with a straight face.

Please explain.
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:39 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Peetster
This is what killers do. They kill people. Read this part carefully: They will not rest until you are dead. Yes, you, the person reading this post right now. Unless you are an extreem radical fundamental Muslem, they despise you. They want to kill you. You are their sworn enemy.

Until you understand the depth of hatred these extreem fundamentalists feel for you, you will not understand the lengths they will go to accomplish their life's ambition: your death.
Well said.
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:45 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Originally posted by gondath

The Geneva Convention is not a valid shield for the USA to hide behind, whether it was followed to the letter or not. Americans have already proven they don't have to follow any international laws when they don't feel like it.
We can't use it as a shield 'cause we violated it. Stipulated.

WRT torture being wrong no matter what, what do you define as torture? I'd say that matters. I consider watching network television to be torture, for instance. It's definitely wrong!
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:59 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Originally posted by yournamehere
You need not look any further than the victim's last name to know the <i>real</i> motive for this senseless act of barbarism.
You're saying Berg was Jewish?
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Old 05-17-2004, 11:09 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Originally posted by denim
You're saying Berg was Jewish?
According to his father he was.
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Old 05-17-2004, 11:11 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally posted by punkass_hippie
there is no justification for the presence of troops in iraq;
Er, we've been at war with these people since 1991. Given that Hussein violated the truce for several years, we were very justified in going back in there and kicking his ass. No WMD excuses were necessary.
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Old 05-17-2004, 11:12 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Originally posted by onetime2
According to his father he was.
Wonderful. Now I have another reason to wish those assholes who murdered him extreme ill. That's a mild understatement, BTW.
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Old 05-17-2004, 11:31 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Absolutely, this is a ridiculous comparison and a weak retort to opposition to the treatment the Iraqi's received. What happened to the Iraqi's is terrible but the bruatl murder of the correspondant is reprehensible and idefencible.
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Old 05-17-2004, 12:15 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by irateplatypus
before anyone jumps on my back... i dont' condone either. however...

US prisoner abuse:

1. the prisoners were either criminals or captured enemy soldiers.
2. they were humiliated for purposes of gaining intelligence.
3. the prisoners have decent odds of having american blood on their hands (which, is a part of war. i understand that)
4. ostensibly, the devices used by the americans were being used to save american lives.
5. their faces were covered, the photos were taken and leaked.
6. sparked an intense investigation, 7 soldiers already summoned to a courts-martial.

Berg situation:

1. he was a civilian, his presence in iraq wasn't a physical threat to anyone.
2. berg was kidnapped, not taken prisoner in a war or arrested as a criminal.
3. the man was beheaded in a brutal way
4. the violence and disgrace was videotaped for the purpose of showing the world this act.
5. radicals claim that they will fill "coffin after coffin" like this.

i condemn both, but equivocating the two is ludicrous.
Bingo.
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:29 PM   #91 (permalink)
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I think that the beheading is worse than the nude pyramids any day. And if you had to think hard about that question.......well I don't know what to tell you. I am in agreement with almost everything that edwhit said in his post.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by edwhit
[B]What a few americans did to a few iraqi's in prison was terrible. The prisoners may have been innocent. It is doubful, but almost always possible.

Berg was innocent. Everyone knows he was innocent (except some conspiracy theory freaks). They did not care that he was innocent. They just wanted to punish america. But I do not believe for a second that he was killed because of the abuse news.

The murderers were not exactly the common iraqi citizen. They are terrorists. Terrorists kill innocent people all the time. What I DO believe is that the abuse stirred up enough people that they decided it was a convenient time to Slay him in the hopes of further turning people against the US.

I have talked to a friend that was raped and she feels it would not be better to be killed than tortured (thinking mainly of the rape part) Her thinking was that people don't always survive rape. Many people are psychologically ruined for life often taking their families with them. That is (or can be for some) a living death. She feels they are equally bad.

My thinking is that one has a chance to survive torture. One has NO chance to survive death.

What does it matter? This whole topic matters to me because I see Americans turning on our government and blaming our government for the beheading of an innocent man (who was trying to help innocent people). While the ripple effect often causes unfortunate events, it is not always the best logic.

In a perfect world we should all obey the laws perfectly. If I was alone in a room with someone that killed my best friend and raped a little girl I should give that person the same rights as an innocent man unjustly held in prison. However, if the opportunity came I would be hard pressed NOT to beat the crap out of him at the very least. It is wrong. I know.

Now wait a minute! I know, they were probably not all guilty of those crimes. I'm sure they just jay walked or something. As a responsible nation, we should NOT have raped any prisoners or sexually abused them. We should not have threatened to have them electrecuted or had our dogs bite them. Those guards did countless things they should not have done I'm sure.

But come on now. Throwing cold water on them? WHO CARES! Depriving them of sleep? I'm depriving myself of sleep right now. Some of those "abuses" are just pathetic. We are in the middle of a war. Get over it! Punish the bad guys no matter who they are and move on!

We admit our faults. Did the terrorists?
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:36 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Originally posted by gondath

The Geneva Convention is not a valid shield for the USA to hide behind, whether it was followed to the letter or not. Americans have already proven they don't have to follow any international laws when they don't feel like it.

I just wonder if the Iraqis followed the Geneva Convention when they captured Jessica Lynch and the other Americans that were POWS? Just because we were stupid and toke pictures of the things that we had done. One of our citizens should be beheaded? These people in the prisons are prisoners and should be treated as such. And if having them form a nude pyramid is going to get information about WMD or info about terrorists I say do whatever it takes.
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Old 05-17-2004, 02:15 PM   #93 (permalink)
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We often hear the simple idea put forward when talking about Iraq that what we are doing is better than Hussein.

My question is this: Why are we using a vile dictator like Saddam as a moral guidepost for our own actions?

Is a murdering rapist better than Jeffrey Dahmer because he doesn't prey on children or dine on them afterwards?

Not to say that we are either of them, but why are we so busy comparing ourselves to the worst of the worst.

I would prefer to think that my fine nation is incomparable to the Hussein regime. Unfortunately I am being bombarded with reminders that isn't the case.

I am very disappointed.
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Last edited by jb2000; 05-17-2004 at 02:18 PM..
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Old 05-17-2004, 02:43 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amethyst
I just wonder if the Iraqis followed the Geneva Convention when they captured Jessica Lynch and the other Americans that were POWS?
Why do you wonder? Jessica said so herself when she came out and corrected both the pentagon's and media's portrayal of what occurred.
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Old 05-17-2004, 03:11 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I haven't read the entire Geneva Convention, but is rape allowed?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...06-lynch_x.htm


Lynch book tells of rape by captors
By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY
PALESTINE, W.Va. — Jessica Lynch, the former prisoner of war whose rescue made her the most famous GI in the Iraq war, was raped by her captors, according to her authorized biography.

Rick Bragg's book also casts doubts on the claim of an Iraqi lawyer who says he helped rescue the soldier.
Glamour Magazine handout

But the book, which will be released Tuesday, says Lynch has no memory of being sexually assaulted, and she appreciates her treatment in an Iraqi hospital after her vehicle crashed during an Iraqi ambush.

In the book, author Rick Bragg writes that scars on Lynch's body and medical records indicate she was sodomized, but that Lynch recalls nothing: "Jessi lost three hours. She lost them in the snapping bones, in the crash of the Humvee, in the torment her enemies inflicted on her after she was pulled from it."
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Old 05-17-2004, 04:02 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amethyst
I haven't read the entire Geneva Convention, but is rape allowed?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...06-lynch_x.htm


Lynch book tells of rape by captors
By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY
PALESTINE, W.Va. — Jessica Lynch, the former prisoner of war whose rescue made her the most famous GI in the Iraq war, was raped by her captors, according to her authorized biography.

Rick Bragg's book also casts doubts on the claim of an Iraqi lawyer who says he helped rescue the soldier.
Glamour Magazine handout

But the book, which will be released Tuesday, says Lynch has no memory of being sexually assaulted, and she appreciates her treatment in an Iraqi hospital after her vehicle crashed during an Iraqi ambush.

In the book, author Rick Bragg writes that scars on Lynch's body and medical records indicate she was sodomized, but that Lynch recalls nothing: "Jessi lost three hours. She lost them in the snapping bones, in the crash of the Humvee, in the torment her enemies inflicted on her after she was pulled from it."
No, rape is not allowed by the Geneva convention.

Quote:
Given that the Jessica Lynch story, including the theatrics of her dramatic door-busting rescue from an Iraqi hospital that had been abandoned by its guards, is now viewed in much of the world as pure propaganda, the whole affair is certainly worthy of examination. Lynch, for her part, wonders why the raid to rescue her was recorded with night vision film; a curious reporter might also question the release of only a small fraction of that footage by the Pentagon.

It is odd that Bragg would not recognize that this official spin is a key part of the Jessica Lynch story. By ignoring it, he renders his book little more than a thinly disguised soap opera.

Bragg compounds this failing by accepting at face value the military's report (strangely, never actually quoted) that Lynch was sexually abused during the three hours between the time her Humvee crashed and she was taken to an Iraqi emergency hospital (where her life was saved by quite heroic doctors and nurses). The alleged sexual abuse, of which Lynch has no memory, gave the book the headlines that will perhaps boost sales, but it is discounted by the Iraqi doctors who examined her and is treated as a more ambiguous possibility by American doctors interviewed by the news media.

Both Lynch and Bragg, however, are quite clear that she was never abused in the two Iraqi hospitals where she was treated, amid a scene of wounded children and other civilians awaiting their turns.
--http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17229

But, as I replied in your PM, this is old news and I don't see much point in rehashing things Jessica Lynch has denied ever occured in personal interviews.

The people in these "prisons" haven't been convicted of anything and shouldn't be treated like prisoners. Even if they deserved to be treated as prisoners, we don't subject our prisoners to death by snake bites, broom stick rapings, and electroction for information.
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Old 05-17-2004, 09:20 PM   #97 (permalink)
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This has been good so far, don't let it derail off-topic into old, irrelevant news about Lynch.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:11 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Pointing at how badly others have acted is no justification for our own behaviour.

It is however evidence that we aren't as different from those we compare ourselves to as we might once have thought.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:27 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Our evil isn't as bad as their evil.

Wake up people.
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:12 AM   #100 (permalink)
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That's not new. This is a world of greys, not black-and-white. We're not perfect. We're just saying that our imperfection is lesser than theirs.
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Old 05-18-2004, 12:50 PM   #101 (permalink)
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*head in hands* I weep for what was once a proud country, of civilized, and compassionate people. If this is truly what we have become, America is destroying itself.
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Old 05-18-2004, 01:28 PM   #102 (permalink)
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I still don't get it - why are we comparing ourselves to the lowest?

It gives no justification either way you put it - since when did our own people justify our actions by comparing us to the worst of human society?
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Old 05-18-2004, 01:35 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally posted by tecoyah
*head in hands* I weep for what was once a proud country, of civilized, and compassionate people. If this is truly what we have become, America is destroying itself.
And you are commenting to... what, exactly?

Why should we be compassionate of people whose stated goal is to kill every last one of us? What bothers me is that there are a lot of soft-headed people in this country who are so far out of touch with reality that they refuse to recognise that some people really are evil.
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Old 05-18-2004, 01:57 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by denim
Why should we be compassionate of people whose stated goal is to kill every last one of us? What bothers me is that there are a lot of soft-headed people in this country who are so far out of touch with reality that they refuse to recognise that some people really are evil.
I'm just confused how these people are ALL guilty. I don't believe that all (if any?) have been charged with criminal offences. So who has the right to act as jury, judge and executioner? They might be nasty people but still everyone has a right to a fair trial where they are innocent until proven guilty. I think this is especially important when you are trying to form a new democracy, it hardly installs confidence.
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Old 05-18-2004, 02:06 PM   #105 (permalink)
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All the people trying to kill us are guilty by definition. What's hard to understand about that?
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Old 05-18-2004, 02:29 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by denim
All the people trying to kill us are guilty by definition. What's hard to understand about that?
How do YOU know who was guilty? Do you have evidence of it happening? All you know is what the media is telling you.

You may have formed your opinion and that's fine but just remember that nothing isquite so clear cut.

Putting people into groups they appear to be in just because they were in the 'vicinity' of someone else who is guilty is not the same as a rigorous trial. In the trial all sides have rights as opposed to a one-sided beating from your accuser which means you eventually admit 'everything' out of shear terror.
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Old 05-18-2004, 02:46 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by denim
And you are commenting to... what, exactly?

Why should we be compassionate of people whose stated goal is to kill every last one of us? What bothers me is that there are a lot of soft-headed people in this country who are so far out of touch with reality that they refuse to recognise that some people really are evil.
Yes. In the USA and in Iraq.

Your argument that everyone in that prison who was tortured was guilty, and therefore deserved to be tortured, is sad on several levels. It's really disappointing to me that (i'm assuming) a USA citizen wouldn't see the problem here.

Many of the people in the prison were just rounded up during sweeps. The USA let hundreds go last week. They are letting hundreds go again this week.

Not everyone in prison is guilty, even in the USA. There are many cases of people being executed for crimes they did not commit.

In any even, even if people are criminals, they should not be tortured. Everyone is entitled to due process and freedom from torture, and the USA has signed international agreements to this effect.
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Old 05-18-2004, 03:35 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Yes. In the USA and in Iraq.

Your argument that everyone in that prison who was tortured was guilty, and therefore deserved to be tortured, is sad on several levels.
Er, excuse me, but where did I say or imply that?
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Old 05-18-2004, 03:36 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Originally posted by llama8
How do YOU know who was guilty?
I don't, and I didn't suggest that I did. I said what I said, and nothing more. Read what's there. I said nothing about people in prisons, nor anything about torture.
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Old 05-18-2004, 03:37 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by denim
And you are commenting to... what, exactly?

Why should we be compassionate of people whose stated goal is to kill every last one of us? What bothers me is that there are a lot of soft-headed people in this country who are so far out of touch with reality that they refuse to recognise that some people really are evil.
If the "reality" you claim I am out of touch with, is indeed the one you seem to portray, I will be perfectly content to dwell in my little fantasyland. Should I ever accept the blatant hatred, and disregard for human life you condone, I will no longer feel the need to interact with society.
You are welcome to your opinion, your reality if you will. Fortunately it is still in the minority and has yet to become the standard belief in this country. You would probably get along quite well with the very people you fear, you have a militant mentality, and that is a pity.
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Old 05-18-2004, 04:11 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Locobot
lets talk about the relative morality of preemptively striking another country with full military force...


i love when people think we attacked some innocent country......



its Iraq...not Canada....
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Old 05-18-2004, 04:32 PM   #112 (permalink)
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/shrug despite all the twisting and all...

My question still stands - why do we compare ourselves to Saddam lately? "Its better than Saddam" - well of course we *should* be better than everyone but to start using Saddam as our best comparison?

Uhh where has our country gone...
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Old 05-18-2004, 05:41 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
If the "reality" you claim I am out of touch with, is indeed the one you seem to portray, I will be perfectly content to dwell in my little fantasyland. Should I ever accept the blatant hatred, and disregard for human life you condone, I will no longer feel the need to interact with society.
You are welcome to your opinion, your reality if you will. Fortunately it is still in the minority and has yet to become the standard belief in this country. You would probably get along quite well with the very people you fear, you have a militant mentality, and that is a pity.
Agreed, and well said.
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Old 05-18-2004, 05:42 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
If the "reality" you claim I am out of touch with, is indeed the one you seem to portray, I will be perfectly content to dwell in my little fantasyland.
I didn't say anything about you. If anything, you've included yourself in the group I mentioned by your assumption of what I was saying. It's not all about you, dude.

(edit) The reality I described is the one these people are coming from. If you don't understand that, you don't know what you're talking about. Get educated before posting again on this topic.

Last edited by denim; 05-18-2004 at 06:19 PM..
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:17 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Note that I'm not a person who said that embarassing people is as bad as cutting their heads off.
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:24 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Welp this thread sure went down fast...

Keep it in check or its gone.
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:33 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by denim
I didn't say anything about you. If anything, you've included yourself in the group I mentioned by your assumption of what I was saying. It's not all about you, dude.

(edit) The reality I described is the one these people are coming from. If you don't understand that, you don't know what you're talking about. Get educated before posting again on this topic.
Denim, perhaps you could lay out your opinion specifically about torture, Iraq, and "evil". I'm quite unclear whether you want to kill everyone in Iraq for guilt-by- association or not.
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:50 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Denim, perhaps you could lay out your opinion specifically about torture, Iraq, and "evil". I'm quite unclear whether you want to kill everyone in Iraq for guilt-by- association or not.
Well, let's start with what I've said already.

1) Two cultures are not equivalent.
2) We violated the Geneva Convention.
3) I'm not happy with people who behead others, especially Jews, being one myself.
4) We're not perfect. We are, however less imperfect than certain others.
5) Some people really are evil.
6) People trying to kill us are guilty. I said nothing about the rest.
7) Softheaded people don't realize to stop bending over when they start getting fucked up the ass.

What's unclear?
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:57 PM   #119 (permalink)
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OTOH, if the Highlander beheads an Immortal, that's okay.

(edit) Unless it's Richie. That's over the line.
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Old 05-18-2004, 07:29 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by denim
7) Softheaded people don't realize to stop bending over when they start getting fucked up the ass.

What's unclear?
Nothing. It's quite clear that you want to insult people who disagree with you, not have an honest discussion.
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