Mondak

More over a year now, I have hated John Kerry. Whenever I see him on whatever talk show / news show that he can get airtime on, he angers me. Like most politicians in his situation, he seems to bitch alot about whatever issue he has at hand and not offer any kind of credible solutions. His "I am out to help the common man" schtick is so played. I hate politicians.

I thought he would simply go away when the primary seasons started and more substantial candidates emerged, but instead he is gaining momentum.

Since I am having objectivity problems with this fellow, I was wondering what his stance is on things. What is he doing that seems to resonate so far with the folks who are voting for him? What are his views? What is his plan? In General where does he stand?

Since I cannot seem to be, please be as objective as you can even if you are some Kerry person. Thanks a lot for the information on this fellow. I would like to educate myself on this subject instead of ignoring it.

Lebell

I don't think Kerry can beat Bush for the simple reason that what most appeals to the far left (strong anti-war, anti-gun, etc.) is what alienates the swing vote.

If Kerry gets the nomination, I predict four more years of Bush.

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Liquor Dealer

I think Lebell is right - At first I thought Dean would be the easiest to beat but Kerry seems to be nothing other than a saggy-faced Kennedy clone. Heard on the news a little while ago that Bush now has an approval of 52% in California - first time that has happened in years.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

mb99usa

Unfortunately I have not been following what the Dem candidates are saying but it would appear to me that Kerry would be the best to go against Bush. I think he would give Bush a hard time just by the fact he is a better speaker.

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So, what's your point?

It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

Liquor Dealer

It is interesting that you mentioned the "better speaker" part - to you he may be a better speaker but to those of us who speak Texan or the like, he is speaking a foreign language that is difficult at times to understand. New England English is a lot different than what is spoken in a large part of the country.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Mondak

I appreciate the feedback, but I want to try and not make this thread a "who will win the election" Thread if possible.

If anyone knows anything about this guy's politics, views, etc, it would really help me understand my world better.

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All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

Tomservo

George Bush won't win California. Period. Even the Republicans hear are starting to dislike him now, judging by the amount of time they spend bitching about his new immigration "plan". The idea of providing amnesty to a bunch of folks who are already taking jobs from you doesn't resonate with anyone, regardless of skin color, race, or political party. Granted, when he dumps this retarded idea, they'll probably rejoin the Bush love-in. When it all boils down, though, California's schools are getting worse, housing is getting more expensive, and state benefits (Community College fees, child-care programs) are going to be cut massively if Gov. Arnold doesn't get his bond package.

In short, Californians are pissed, and the same things that pissed them off about Gray Davis are Bush staples. High spending, huge deficit, pandering to the illegal aliens... and this state voted VERY solidly anti-Bush last time.

mb99usa

Understood Liquor Dealer but don't necessarily agree. That's all I'll say as I do not want to hijack Mondak's thread.

__________________
So, what's your point?

It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

Vespertine

John Kerry's a boob. But so is every major democratic candidate that's available. None of them are going to beat Bush when it comes down to it.

P.S. I hate Bush.

jcookc6

Kerry can't speak, that is why he has Teddy Kennedy with him. When did you ever hear him say something of substance. As for why he wants to President? because he want to be!

Mondak

Holy thread jack batman!

Well - If anyone knows - the mic is yours....

__________________
All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

Ustwo

John Kerry in a nutshell.

Limousine Liberal

http://politicalhumor.about.com/libr...ne_liberal.jpg

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Liquor Dealer

Apparently all you are waiting for is the opportunity to make a rant or express your opinion of him since you have absolutely no interest in what anyone else has to say - pro or con. Make your rant and get it over with and you can end this debate you are having with yourself.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Ustwo

I wouldn't be that hard on him. No one has explained Kerry (cept me heh).

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Mondak

Well - I don't quite know what to say to that. Other than being told that he is a "boob" and that he won't win against Bush, I don't know that I learned anything here.

I quite readlily admitted to not knowing anything about John Kerry AND not being able to be objective because the only thing I have to go on is when he rants on talk shows. As such, I don't know that I would have a very credible position to bash someone else or whatever. People are voting for this guy, so there must be some attraction.

As stated above, any information from anyone who knows anything about JOHN KERRY would help me understand my world better. Despite what I am being told here, it is nothing more than a legitimate search for knowledge.

__________________
All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

Phaenx

Maybe this will help, the ever poignant Kim du Toit:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/funct...7-084854-4468r Link to his voting history.

I'd say people are voting for him because he looks and speaks good. Issues take a backseat to "electibility."

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

lurkette

Not sure that really helped, Phaenx. The article is logically inconsistent and has to resort to name-calling (cocksucking commie sympathizer? geez - what decade is this?!?) to make any kind of point, which it doesn't, really. I think it's the worst kind of intellectual dishonesty to question someone's patriotism - particularly a veteran - simply because he doesn't line up and salute a questionable war. If that were the case, half the fricking Pentagon and a slew of Bush's own military advisors would be Benedict Arnolds themselves. Much easier to throw around expletives than to actually deal seriously with the ambiguity and complexity of the situation.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

mystmarimatt

hear hear, lurkette!

However, I think i might be able to help the thread. I can't "Explain" Kerry, persay, but i found this site a while back, and I refer back to it a lot to check each candidate's platform. (I'd paste it on here, but it wouldn't translate over very well...you'll see what I mean.)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/spe...dex.kerry.html

And you can even click on the headshots of the other candidates to see their platforms!

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Words of Wisdom:

If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

jbuffett

Geez, that's easy. Kerry's an anti-Bush. Against tax breaks for millionaires. For the environment. For free speech. For freedom of religion. etc.

A Kerry presidency would hopefully mean an end to ironically named legislation like "No Child Left Behind" and "Clear Skies Initiative"

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I do blame you for voting for Bush.

Superbelt

Wow what a bunch of claptrap that was.

More of the damn "Commie Sympathiser" Bullshit? How can you post that and think that anyone who isn't already that far right, could look at that and give half a though to what you just provided to us?

Anyway. I didn't want to even get into this. I can enthusiastically support Kerry if/when he gets the Democratic Nomination. But he really isn't my guy. He isn't particularly engaging, even now.
My personal preference is Dean, Edwards, Kerry, Clark.

But anyway. Kerry is 3rd on the liberal scale in this election. Kuchinich, Edwards, then Kerry.

He has 5 war medals from Nam and testified against it in the Senate in one of the most widely distributed speeches in American History. It's in most every famous speech book.
"How can you ask a man to be the last to die for a mistake?"
I guess that makes him a commie sympathiser!
He was Instrumental in exposing Iran Contra as a senator
I guess that makes him a commie sympathiser too....
Has an almost perfect liberal voting record punctuated by one of his biggest issues of fighting Acid Rain when he was a Lt. Governor.
He recieved an award from the League of Conservation Voters Award who honored him for having one of the best environmental voting record over previous 5 years. in 1998.

Former Senator and Vietnam Veteran/amputee Max Cleland is endorsing him, as is Gary Hart.

Issues, well here:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

He's big on the environment, and that is one of my core issues.

Ustwo

Ask how he made his money

I don't have time now, but why dont you fill us in Superbelt.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Superbelt

He married into it. So what?

smooth

hmm, I just read some stuff on him yesterday, but I can't find it anymore. I think it was along the lines of what superbelt posted.

I don't know much about Kerry, but my wife likes him best. So I started searching around and I like his environmental stance. I also like universal health coverage, but unlike Kerry, I really am a commie so I'd like to see free universal coverage instead of the option to buy into the same plan that senators and the president can (which is what he proposes) .

If Kerry is married to Heinz, then I remember that commentators were remarking many conservatives would have a hard time saying anything overtly negative about the couple since she is the recent widow of a beloved conservative senator.

I wish I knew more about his childhood. Does anyone know?

I connected with the fact that Edwards and Dean grew up middle class.

Ustwo

How many times and under what circumstances?

Why did he leave his first rich wife?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

smooth

You evidently have enough time to keep coming back and posting snide remarks.

If you've got a point to make, just post it.

Sparhawk

Kerry grew up in an upper middle-class background. There's definitely a contrast with Bush and Clinton, who both used connections to get out of going to Vietnam, and it says something about Kerry, that he volunteered to go fight in a war that most in his generation were trying their hardest to get out of. And cheers to him for sharing the stage Tuesday night with his fellow veterans, especially Max Cleland.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Superbelt

You can hem and haw and make allusions to him being a gold digger. Go ahead.

Theresa Heinz is the widow of a prominent senator. Naturally the kinds of circles that both have been running in for decades could bring two people recently out of their respective marriages together.

Having grown up in a moderately rich neighborhood, he would again, have gone through the same circles as his first wife did. He had already gained a measure of success by the time they met. Powerful people are drawn together.
He left his first wife because he wasn't strong enough to deal with her intense Depression that she developed through their marriage.

They have apparently gotten over it as the former Mrs Kerry has publicly thrown her support behind his presidential bid.

mml

As a long-time Kerry fan and supporter, I could go on at length, but I thought it would be better for you to read about his policy stands for yourself.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

Take some time, read what he has to say - you really need to go into the detailed descriptions of his policies- and decide what you think of him.

Personally, I think Kerry represents an opportunity to restore honorable, dedicated and insightful governance in the White House. His experiences and knowledge give him a pool of resources that no other candidate, including President Bush, can match. His stands on the environment and intuitive thinking on education and job creation will help lead this country to prosperity. His extensive foreign policy background and commitment to making the U.S. a true leader in world affairs will help to ensure that we have a safe and respected nation.

Individuals who know him, regardless of political affiliation, have a great deal of respect for him. A local businessman who is a major fund-raiser for Bush was recently quoted as saying that while he certainly hopes and will work dilligently to ensure that President Bush remains in office, if he wakes up the day after the election, and John Kerry is president he won't lose any sleep.


Let me know what you think.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
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smooth

I guess that's as close as I'm going to get. I suppose that about the time I get my Ph.D. and move into the upper-middle class is about the time he'll be up for re-election. The difference, as I see it, is that I didn't grow up that way so my ideology is shaped by a different class background (more similar to Edwards' and maybe Dean's). But I can respect his ideas, I have a few friends now from that class and, even though we don't see eye-to-eye on a number of things, we can meet on most of them.

smooth_4

He doesn't have those medals any more. He threw them on the steps of the capitol during a protest.

I like Kerry, and Dean, and Edwards. I'd be happy with any of them instead of Bush.

__________________
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-Aristotle

Ustwo

LIE.

He said he threw them, later it was found he had them framed in his office. Now he claims he threw someone ELSES medals for them.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Sparhawk

Whether he has the original medals or not is irrelevant. He earned them, and can always buy replacements on any military base he goes to.

Ustwo, calling somebody else a liar is pretty harsh. The question is, did he knowingly lie and deceive the rest of the board, or was the intelligence that was presented to him faulty?? Tell ya what, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

It was Kerry who lied about it, the poster was just mistaken.

If I wasn't clear, the LIE was for Kerry himself.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ustwo

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mondak

Thanks to the link to the issues from mml and Superbelt. I read them over and it is pretty clear to me that his ideas are not what I have in mind for our country, but I do get it. It definitly helped me to understand where he is coming from and what his agenda is and that is a good thing.

I also enjoyed the CNN thing that contrasted the different candidates on the same issues. That was somewhat helpful so thanks mystmarimatt.

Finally - lurkette, you helped change the tone of this thread with some gentle prodding. Thanks a lot - I was not being effective at communicating what I hoped to gain from this thread.

The one thing that I still don't grasp quite yet is why Kerry over the other Democratic hopefulls? Is it that his policies are speaking most to the needs of the voters? Does he just have an intangible presence that others like? Is it as simple as he is a more charasmatic speaker than the others and somewhat similar in their plans to change the country? In a lot of respects when I use the CNN tool and also use what little I know, Dennis Kucinich, Edwards, Gephard (out) and Kerry are somewhat on the same page.

What do you all think?

__________________
All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

Sparhawk

Ah, more of Ustwo's usual MO, quote a bunch of negative attacks and provide no links and no corroboration.

As for "Why Kerry?" I like the idea of a commander-in-chief who has actually seen combat deciding when to send military forces overseas, as opposed to the chickenhawlks we have today. I'm curious, Mondak where does your hatred of this guy come from?

This just doesn't sound like enough to draw a man's hate to me...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

You know I'm sick of people being to lazy to google.

I of course come across many of these things in general reading. Now for a link for you Sparhawk.


http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/newrepl...&postid=927211



There are a lot of them out there, try 'John Kerry medals lie'. His voting record is public, you can look it up yourself

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

lurkette

Settle down boys.

Sparhawk, keep it civil.

Ustwo, it is common courtesy to provide links or at least reference to your sources. You yourself would likely scoff at someone who backed up an argument with "I read it somewhere." If you're "too lazy" to provide your sources, don't gripe at those who are "too lazy" to go hunting for them.

Now play nice.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Superbelt

Kerry Has Voted Against A Balanced Budget Amendment At Least Five Times.
Mind providing us with links which may provide us with some context? I thought not, this one falls apart.
Kerry Voted Against President Bush's Tax Cuts, At Least The Tenth Key Anti-Tax Relief Vote Of His Senate Career.
Woo hoo! Good for him! That earns the Intelligent Americans vote!
Kerry Voted For The Biggest Tax Increase In American History Under President Clinton.
A tax increase for the top ten%. Know what happened to our economy a few years after that? We had one of the biggest economic booms in american history and Clinton started paying down our national debt with the SURPLUS
_________________
Kerry Has Voted For At Least Seven Major Reductions In Defense And Military Spending Necessary For Our National Security.

In 1996, Introduced Bill To Slash Defense Department Funding By $6.5 Billion.

In 1995, Voted To Freeze Defense Spending For 7 Years, Slashing Over $34 Billion From Defense.

Fiscal 1996 Budget Resolution – Defense Freeze. “Harkin, D-Iowa, amendment to freeze defense spending for the next seven years and transfer the $34.8 billion in savings to education and job training.”

In 1993, Introduced Plan To Cut Numerous Defense Programs, Including:

Cut the number of Navy submarines and their crews

Reduce the number of light infantry units in the Army down to one

Reduce tactical fighter wings in the Air Force

Terminate the Navy’s coastal mine-hunting ship program

Force the retirement of no less than 60,000 members of the Armed Forces in one year.

Has Voted Repeatedly To Cut Defense Spending, Including:

In 1993, Voted Against Increased Defense Spending For Military Pay Raise. Kerry voted to kill an increase in military pay over five years.

In 1992, Voted To Cut $6 Billion From Defense.

In 1991, Voted To Slash Over $3 Billion From Defense, Shift Money To Social Programs.

In 1991, Voted To Cut Defense Spending By 2%.

Has Voted Repeatedly To Cut Or Eliminate Funding For B-2 Stealth Bomber Has Voted Repeatedly Against Missile Defense. Weapons Kerry Sought To Phase Out Were Vital In Iraq. “[K]erry supported cancellation of a host of weapons systems that have become the basis of US military might -- the high-tech munitions and delivery systems on display to the world as they leveled the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein in a matter of weeks.” (Brian C. Mooney, “Taking One Prize, Then A Bigger One,” The Boston Globe, 6/19/03)
Context. For instance, Paul Wellstone got smeared by Bill Frist during his last campaign over a bill that gave an inordinate amount of money for Seaweed control in a republicans district. The bill also had a little bit of text that helped infants get innoculated I believe. It was worthless and Wellstone voted against it. Frist then ran ads against Paul saying he voted against inncoulating babies. There's a lot of context that needs to be inserted here. I guess we should all take you at your word for EVERY ONE OF THESE. Hmm?

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Military hardware he felt we no longer need since the "cold war" is past. The money would be better spent on "social" programs. These weapons are now the core of our military might.

F-16 Fighting Falcons.

B-1Bs B-2As F-15 And F-16s.

M1 Abrams.

Patriot Missile.

AH-64 Apache Helicopter

Tomahawk Cruise Missile.

Aegis Air-Defense Cruiser

During 1980s, Kerry And Michael Dukakis Joined Forces With Liberal Group Dedicated To Slashing Defense. Kerry sat on the board of “Jobs With Peace Campaign,” which sought to “develop public support for cutting the defense budget…”(“Pentagon Demonstrators Call For Home-Building, Not Bombs,” The Associated Press, 6/3/88)

Running For Congress In 1972, Kerry Promised To Cut Defense Spending. “On what he’ll do if he’s elected to Congress, Kerry said he would ‘bring a different kind of message to the president.’ He said he would vote against military appropriations.” (“Candidate’s For Congress Capture Campus In Andover,” Lawrence [MA] Eagle-Tribune, 4/21/72)

“So you can look at all the potential threats of the world, and when you add the expenditures of all of our allies to the United States of America, you have to stop and say to yourself, ‘What is it that we are really preparing for in a post-cold-war world?’”(Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 5/15/96, p. S5061)

Apparently, Kerry was blissfully unaware of any of the multitude of terror attacks and threats against the country. If we had listened to him, we would have no military at all.

Kerry was also one of those who helped castrate our CIA and intelligence gathering, which, along with Clinton's total ignoring of the problem, led to 9/11 and the present global war on terror we are now fighting.

Watch for this book to come out by Richard Clarke.
It is very critical of Bush for disregarding all warnings, and disregarding the plans he, Clinton and a gaggle of other national security experts drew up to take the war to Osama, a year before the 9/11 attacks.

Clarke Bio
Since May 1998, Clarke was the first National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counter-terrorism.

Ustwo

I suppose what angers me is the lack of intellectual effort of some of our board members on these topics. If you are going to support someone in writing I expect you would have at least done a little reading on them beyond the press release.

As a personal example, in the primaries for the 2000 election, I thought McCain was the right choice. He seemed dynamic, at ease with the media, a vet, all good things. Then I started to learn about him and it became apparent he was not a great senator, but a great self promoter. He sponsored bills not on their merit but on their publicity. He was a camera hound who would switch party lines at times not out of personal belief, but just for the cameras that always follow a republican who does so. We just got over an Ego president, the country didn't need another one.

If you like John Kerry I'd expect you to learn about him, how he married a rich girl, left her when she had depression, and even tried to have the marriage annulled despite having 2 children with her while he moved on the next even richer widow. I'd expect you to know about his war protests, but also know that there were allegations of him setting up fake testimony with phony vets, or his medal tossing flip flop. I would expect you to know he has voted his entire career to cut the military and limit the CIA. If you still like him fine, but you should at least be aware of it if you did even a basic look at the man.

Maybe I expect to much from the crowd but I always have hope.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.