Odd's of Legalizing in US? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Phaenx · 08-24-2003, 07:24 PM

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Originally posted by Nizzle
[B]Yes, this is a scientific paper outlining negative health effects. There are thousands of such research papers with impressive credentials on them that all say different things. This thread would not be very interesting if we sat here and posted them to each other all day. If you want to find similar studies that "prove" the side effects of marijuana are benign, then spend about 5 minutes on Google. There are a lot of doctors and research scientists who not only believe recreational use of cannabis is benign, but that it has positive side-effects in treatment of many illnesses.

I don't have the time to sort out all the hightimes articles looking for something credible, this is a good project for you, as a person whose trying to convince me pot isn't bad.

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I think it is pretty clear that the "legalize crowd" does not feel either of these substances are as bad as you are suggesting. In addition, there are strong indicators that whether they are harmful or not, illegalizing them has far worse consequences. Here are a few ideas to toss around:

I'm only telling you what I've heard from scientists and doctors. Those that I've listed are the ones saying it's bad, I'm saying it's illegal for a good reason.

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1. We are spending a massive amount of tax dollars to incarcerate drug offenders. The number is rising rapidly.

- According to ONDCP, federal spending to incarcerate drug offenders totals nearly $3 Billion a year -- $2.525 Billion by the Bureau of Prisons, and $429.4 Million by Federal Prisoner Detention. (Source:_ Office of National Drug Control Policy, "National Drug Control Strategy: FY 2003 Budget Summary" (Washington, DC: Office of the President, February 2002), Table 3, pp. 7-9. )

- Over 80% of the increase in the federal prison population from 1985 to 1995 was due to drug convictions. (Source:_US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 1996 (Washington DC: US Department of Justice, 1997).

2. Having a substance which is illegal creates drug trafficing. If this substance were legal, controlled and taxed it would eliminate a large section of criminals who make ridiculous amounts of money peddling. Money made from the sale of marijuana (and saved by not filling the prisons with drug offenders) could be used to fund education and social programs. Perhaps drug use would even decline. And if not, we would still save a lot of money.

3. Cannabis has been illegal for decades, and its use is still increasing every day. Your War on Drugs is a failure.

4. Please study the history and consequences of prohibition for a realistic reason why making alcohol illegal would not be a rational move.

1. Drug is a broad term, it can't be proven either way, but most likely the people who went to prison were not the average college kid who would take advantage of legalized pot. No, these are likely the dealers and people who take harder drugs repeatedly, the ones who should be in prison anyways. If pot were legalized, I don't think it would put a dent in that number.

2. If pot were legal there would still be illegal substances being smuggled into the U.S. If we're still going to be doing the same thing, paying the DEA, putting the heinous offenders in prison (you don't go to prison for minor possession in most states, just a fine in Ohio unless you're carrying over a certain amount, which would result in jail and a fine I believe. I'd be in favor of increasing the fine against offenders for around 5 thousand dollars and sending them on their way. Because it sends the message that it is the wrong thing to do, and is a more plausible means of enforcing the law. Texas marijuana laws are close enough to this.)

3. That's easy to say. What would the numbers look like if we weren't fighting though? Too hard to say, but I think we'd have far more dumbasses then we do now.

4. Duly noted, but the point is that when someone says alcohol is worse then pot, so it should be legal too is nonsensical.

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I really don't feel that whether it is harmful or not, and to what degree, is really the important issue. There are other questions: of personal freedom, the effects the War on Drugs has had on our economy and social structure, and the denial of medical marijuana to those who are known to benefit from it. These issues need to be balanced in order for me to consider your argument credible.

Like I said, I don't care what they do as long as it doesn't affect me. When people destroy themselves it does affect me, and society as a whole. Their pursuit of happiness impedes mine, the war on drugs would continue whether pot was legal or not, and there are other drugs, superior ones in many cases, one could use instead of marijuana.

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I agree, there are probably some things about recreational use of cannabis that aren't that great. I also know that eating too much grease, salt and saturated fats is just as bad, if not worse. There are studies to "prove" this. Whether they should be illegal or not is not determined by that alone.

This is what I think:

- There are some harmful effects of chronic marijuana use
- There are some serious problems with it being illegal that need to be considered
- There are some benefits to making it legal

What I want is rational discourse that takes all these factors into account.

The problem there is you've already made up your mind, and dissent will always be irrational.

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"Unless there are hard facts that come out in the near future that totally contradict the already proven effects of marijuana, and weren't from hightimes, then it won't happen."

This statement implicitly declares that anyone who disagrees with your "proof" has gotten it from High Times, and is therefore a pothead

No it doesn't.

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I'm sorry, but it is the job of your employer to handle this situation, not the Federal government and the penal system. I don't want my tax dollars spent to police your workplace. This is what drug screening, effective management and employee performance reviews are for. And if your employer choses not to police this, then you should find another job. This is a free market, and no one forces you to work anywhere.

That's true, which is partially why I quit. Telling on them simply wasn't enough. Drug tests can be beaten, and it's not hard to look busy when the boss comes by, it's harder then you think to stop this without going big brother on your employees.

Nizzle · 08-24-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
I don't have the time to sort out all the hightimes articles looking for something credible, this is a good project for you, as a person whose trying to convince me pot isn't bad.

A search for "medical marijuana" on Google does not return one single hit for a High Times article. If you can't be bothered to do even a cursory investigation, I feel I am wasting my time.

But to humor you, I searched for "medical marijuana" and limited results to .edu domains. Here's a large report from the Institute of Medicine (link here). Read the executive summary if nothing else. It covers every point previously cited in relation to psychological and physiological effects. It concludes, and states it in no uncertain terms, that although chronic use of marijuana has side effects, they are mild and short-lived. It goes extensively into benefits on cannabanoids in treatment of various disorders.

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I'm only telling you what I've heard from scientists and doctors. Those that I've listed are the ones saying it's bad, I'm saying it's illegal for a good reason.

Okay, what about these professors of Medicine from credible Universities that were the main panel of advisors for the IOM study? I don't think these are "High Times" columnists.

PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATORS AND ADVISORY PANEL
JOHN A. BENSON, JR. (Co-Principal Investigator), Dean and Professor of Medicine, Emeritus, Oregon Health Sciences University School of Medicine
STANLEY J. WATSON, JR. (Co-Principal Investigator), Co-Director and Research Scientist, Mental Health Research Institute, University of Michigan
STEVEN R. CHILDERS, Professor of Physiology and Pharmacology, Center for Neuroscience, Bowman Gray School of Medicine, Wake Forest University
J. RICHARD CROUT, President of Crout Consulting, Drug Development and Regulation, Bethesda, Maryland
THOMAS J. CROWLEY, Professor, Department of Psychiatry, and Executive Director, Addiction Research and Treatment Services, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center
JUDITH FEINBERG, Professor, Department of Internal Medicine, and Associate Director, Division of Infectious Diseases, University of Cincinnati School of Medicine
HOWARD L. FIELDS, Professor of Neurology and Physiology, University of California at San Francisco
DOROTHY HATSUKAMI, Professor of Psychiatry, University of Minnesota
ERIC B. LARSON, Medical Director, University of Washington Medical Center, and Associate Dean for Clinical Affairs, University of Washington
BILLY R. MARTIN, Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology, and Director of National Institute on Drug Abuse Center on Drug Abuse, Medical College of Virginia, Virginia Commonwealth University
TIMOTHY L. VOLLMER, Professor of Medicine, Multiple Sclerosis Research Center, Yale University School of Medicine

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1. Drug is a broad term, it can't be proven either way, but most likely the people who went to prison were not the average college kid who would take advantage of legalized pot. No, these are likely the dealers and people who take harder drugs repeatedly, the ones who should be in prison anyways. If pot were legalized, I don't think it would put a dent in that number.

That entire response was completely devoid of any factual information. I'll just skip this part.

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2. If pot were legal there would still be illegal substances being smuggled into the U.S. If we're still going to be doing the same thing, paying the DEA, putting the heinous offenders in prison (you don't go to prison for minor possession in most states, just a fine in Ohio unless you're carrying over a certain amount, which would result in jail and a fine I believe. I'd be in favor of increasing the fine against offenders for around 5 thousand dollars and sending them on their way. Because it sends the message that it is the wrong thing to do, and is a more plausible means of enforcing the law. Texas marijuana laws are close enough to this.)

I'm willing to discuss separating hard drugs from marijuana. Decriminalizing marijuana does not have to include heroin and other Schedule I substances. Ultimately I don't think punishing drug users has any value. And drug smugglers would not even exist if the item were not contraband. The U.S. war on drugs is entirely responsible for a class of criminals that would not otherwise exist. Eliminating this faction would be a huge benefit to everyone.

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3. That's easy to say. What would the numbers look like if we weren't fighting though? Too hard to say, but I think we'd have far more dumbasses then we do now.

I don't know. Certainly a strong education program would need to come with legalization; and regulations to prevent cigarette companies from marketing heavily to teens.

Perhaps we will learn something from Canadian long-term studies.

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4. Duly noted, but the point is that when someone says alcohol is worse then pot, so it should be legal too is nonsensical.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up. I never suggested that one should be legalized or criminalized because of the laws governing the other.

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Like I said, I don't care what they do as long as it doesn't affect me. When people destroy themselves it does affect me, and society as a whole. Their pursuit of happiness impedes mine, the war on drugs would continue whether pot was legal or not, and there are other drugs, superior ones in many cases, one could use instead of marijuana.

I still don't see how someone smoking a joint in their own home has such a traumatic influence on your life. I accuse you of exaggerating.

You have not even addressed the concern of medical marijuana in the treatment of glaucoma, chronic nausea and dizziness associated with HIV-fighting drugs and chemotherapy, and stimulating appetite.

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The problem there is you've already made up your mind, and dissent will always be irrational.

You mean like how you are convinced that everyone opposing you is affiliated with High Times and have no scientists or doctors to back their claims?

No, I simply have not heard any good arguments that make me question how I already feel. I hate to break this to you, but one report does not constitute proof of anything. The legalization of marijuana is a very potent political and social issue, and the people funding the research -- on both sides -- have a lot at stake on the contents of these reports. The point that I was trying to make earlier is that if you search, you will find people on both sides of the coin stating they have scientific proof of their side.

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That's true, which is partially why I quit. Telling on them simply wasn't enough. Drug tests can be beaten, and it's not hard to look busy when the boss comes by, it's harder then you think to stop this without going big brother on your employees.

I still don't see how this is my problem, or the Federal government's.

Phaenx · 08-24-2003, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nizzle
A search for "medical marijuana" on Google does not return one single hit for a High Times article. If you can't be bothered to do even a cursory investigation, I feel I am wasting my time.

But to humor you, I searched for "medical marijuana" and limited results to .edu domains. Here's a large report from the Institute of Medicine (link here). Read the executive summary if nothing else. It covers every point previously cited in relation to psychological and physiological effects. It concludes, and states it in no uncertain terms, that although chronic use of marijuana has side effects, they are mild and short-lived. It goes extensively into benefits on cannabanoids in treatment of various disorders.

From that site: "Conclusion: Scientific data indicate the potential therapeutic value of cannabinoid drugs, primarily THC, for pain relief, control of nausea and vomiting, and appetite stimulation; smoked marijuana, however, is a crude THC delivery system that also delivers harmful substances."

I read the executive summary and I don't see where it says anything but withdrawal is mild as well, that site doesn't seem to support your claims.

I also read (albeit things I already knew) that there are other drugs that can do everything marijuana can, in most cases better.

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That entire response was completely devoid of any factual information. I'll just skip this part.

It's not factual? Take a look here at what you'd need to do to go to prison for possession in my state, Ohio. What's more plausible, that the 80% rise was due to hard drugs and dealers or kids with a bag of pot?

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I'm willing to discuss separating hard drugs from marijuana. Decriminalizing marijuana does not have to include heroin and other Schedule I substances. Ultimately I don't think punishing drug users has any value. And drug smugglers would not even exist if the item were not contraband. The U.S. war on drugs is entirely responsible for a class of criminals that would not otherwise exist. Eliminating this faction would be a huge benefit to everyone.

Drug smugglers will always exist, because there's no way in hell we're going to legalize every drug, and these dealers are in it for the money, take away pot and they're going to start dealing harder, more dangerous drugs. That certainly wouldn't be helping anyone.

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I don't know. Certainly a strong education program would need to come with legalization; and regulations to prevent cigarette companies from marketing heavily to teens.

Cigarette companies don't do that now, and they smoke anyways. Kids are stupid to begin with, the only way you're going to get pot away from them is by force.

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I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up. I never suggested that one should be legalized or criminalized because of the laws governing the other.

I was initially talking to someone else, which is why I brought alcohol up.

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I still don't see how someone smoking a joint in their own home has such a traumatic influence on your life. I accuse you of exaggerating.

You have not even addressed the concern of medical marijuana in the treatment of glaucoma, chronic nausea and dizziness associated with HIV-fighting drugs and chemotherapy, and stimulating appetite.

^look up^

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You mean like how you are convinced that everyone opposing you is affiliated with High Times and have no scientists or doctors to back their claims?

Who said that? Not me.

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No, I simply have not heard any good arguments that make me question how I already feel. I hate to break this to you, but one report does not constitute proof of anything. The legalization of marijuana is a very potent political and social issue, and the people funding the research -- on both sides -- have a lot at stake on the contents of these reports. The point that I was trying to make earlier is that if you search, you will find people on both sides of the coin stating they have scientific proof of their side.

What do you mean one? I listed like 20.

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I still don't see how this is my problem, or the Federal government's.

It'll be your problem sooner or later when you have to work with, for or employ some of those toads.

Nizzle · 08-25-2003, 11:17 AM

Wow. If you actually read the IOM report and think it's on your side, you are seriously deluded.

I'm done.

Lebell · 08-25-2003, 02:54 PM

Keep it nice, please.

Johnny Rotten · 08-25-2003, 08:47 PM

What, what, what? The theoretical legalization of marijuana is hinging on its harmful effects? Apparently I have entered a Twilight Zone in which alcohol and tobacco do not exist

.

Seriously, I for one won't debate the harmful effects of marijuana. Short term memory loss, helpless stupidity, and, in some cases, debilitating apathy about elements important to your life, like hygeine, employment, and a social life.

But you could apply all of those symptoms to alcohol, respectfully, except for alcohol (and tobacco's) addictiveness.

Also, it's important to keep in mind that if I promote legalization, that doesn't mean I don't have a problem with kids sparking up a fatty. That's kind of silly. Regulate it and tax it. Severe fines for those caught growing it without a license. I don't think personal pot gardens will be such a problem, not compared to bathtub gin, or pouring rubbing alcohol through a loaf of rye bread.

Just treat it like alcohol. Can't drive and smoke. Can't drive while high. Can't smoke in a public place that doesn't have a license. I prefer pot over alcohol, because pot doesn't make you sick, doesn't make you think you can take on 300-pound Kung Fu masters, and is an order of magnitude less likely to negatively affect your life.

But it won't happen any time soon, with the pharmeceutical industry. Also, don't overlook hemp legalization, which the logging industry would put up an impressive fight against.

Alcohol is a drug. Cigarettes are a drug. Chew is a drug. Only one of them has some mildly positive health effects. Marijuana, however, has been proven to provide many health benefits.

A college friend of mine turned to marijuana when no legal antidepressant could help. Even though it's supposed to be a depressant, marijuana lifted his gloom and allowed him to be a successful, energetic, and social individual.

Marijuana is also a decidedly non-violent drug. You will never jones for marijuana. If you think you're jonesing for it, you've never tried heroin. That, my friend, is jonesing. Friend of mine had this anecdote, where he was asking someone how they'd quit marijuana, and the guy said, "I haven't quit. I just haven't scored in eleven years and two months." Marijuana will never do that to you.

Pot proponents will never be pushy.

"C'mon, man, have a drink! Loosen up! Drink it!!!"

"Never had a cigarette? Take a puff, be a man."

Marijuana?

"Hey, dude, you want a puff? No? Okay." Share and share alike. No one gets down on you if you don't want to try it. It's not for everybody. It's not a rite of passage. Just a thing you might want to do to have some fun, to lift your spirit, to take care of a headache, a stomach ache, etc.

Okay, no more rambling from me. If you don't like pot--that's your thing, I respect it. If you know somebody who became a loser because of it--yes, that happens. Though usually that's a symptom of a deeper problem in their life, not the pot itself. Unlike alcohol and tobacco, which can manifest their addictions irrespective of your life experience.

I personally think everyone should try it once. It's not like it makes your head explode or anything

. Don't want any? That's cool.

MacGnG · 08-26-2003, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Rotten
I personally think everyone should try it once. It's not like it makes your head explode or anything . Don't want any? That's cool.

yea at least then you can say you have a reason not to like it, but if you just dont want to try it either thats ok too. it can be as strong or as weak as you make it.

everyone has a preference and a choice but just cause "it might be harmful" is no reason to dismiss the possibility of it's medical uses
--------
the only thing bad about pot is that you eat lots of cookies and chips

....and everything is "COOOOL DUUUDE!"
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haha i dont think alcohol or cigarettes will ever be banned in America seeing as how like 90% of the legal population use either one in some sort of way.

striker3303 · 08-27-2003, 10:15 AM

My subject means nothing, however legalizing in the US is coming, drawing closer and closer every day. Where I live in Washington, you can be caught with marijuana and let off every time. People are caring less and less about this heaven sent drug. No I am not biast.

GarthInPittsburgh · 08-27-2003, 10:39 AM

If they had any brains they'd make it a state monopoly... assure the quality of it so people know what they're getting, and tax it... A lot of income for the country right there.

ObieX · 08-29-2003, 07:13 AM

I would like to point out that marijuana is not always smoked - many of the health problems proposed could be easily avoided. Cooking with marijuana is easy since its fat soluable... just warm it up in some butter and you're good to go. Most, if not all, of the other side effects are either only for the duration of the effect of the drug, or a personal life choice. ....also any woman who takes any drug during pregancy is asking for trouble - its just stupid.

I just find it funny that certain drugs are legal and legal by perscription that have far worse side-effects than marijuana. You can cure your depression but you'll have: diahrrea, sleepiness, cough, stuffy/runny nose, bloody urine, dilated pupils, nausea/vomiting, gas, headaches, skin irritation, itchiness, swelling, redness, rash, erectile disfunction, sexual side-effects, dehydration, dandruff, loss of skin pigmentation, and weight gain. But you wont be depressed!!!

Theresa · 08-29-2003, 01:56 PM

Personally, I hope that it isn't legalized. I am no conservative either.

If marijuana was legalized I can't imagine what kind of additives companies would put in our weed to make it more addictive than it already is. Just like they do to cigarettes.

The government would put high taxes on it. Or at least I assume they would. If you tried to grow it and sell some and didn't report it you would still be charged with money laundering like many growers are today.

I do think marijuana should be decriminalized though. We need to save jail cells for rapists, murderers, child pornographers, etc.

legolas · 08-29-2003, 09:51 PM

I don't know but it doens't look like anytime soon. No matter how many people are for it, it doesn't seem to pass.

08-25-2003, 11:17 AM	#44 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	Wow. If you actually read the IOM report and think it's on your side, you are seriously deluded. I'm done. __________________ Nizzle

08-25-2003, 02:54 PM	#45 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Keep it nice, please. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-27-2003, 10:15 AM	#48 (permalink)
striker3303 Tilted Location: Olympia, WA	Chickens dont' dance My subject means nothing, however legalizing in the US is coming, drawing closer and closer every day. Where I live in Washington, you can be caught with marijuana and let off every time. People are caring less and less about this heaven sent drug. No I am not biast. __________________ Green mustard is the salvation

08-27-2003, 10:39 AM	#49 (permalink)
GarthInPittsburgh Crazy	If they had any brains they'd make it a state monopoly... assure the quality of it so people know what they're getting, and tax it... A lot of income for the country right there. __________________ i was going to call 911, but I was downloading a file

08-29-2003, 07:13 AM	#50 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	I would like to point out that marijuana is not always smoked - many of the health problems proposed could be easily avoided. Cooking with marijuana is easy since its fat soluable... just warm it up in some butter and you're good to go. Most, if not all, of the other side effects are either only for the duration of the effect of the drug, or a personal life choice. ....also any woman who takes any drug during pregancy is asking for trouble - its just stupid. I just find it funny that certain drugs are legal and legal by perscription that have far worse side-effects than marijuana. You can cure your depression but you'll have: diahrrea, sleepiness, cough, stuffy/runny nose, bloody urine, dilated pupils, nausea/vomiting, gas, headaches, skin irritation, itchiness, swelling, redness, rash, erectile disfunction, sexual side-effects, dehydration, dandruff, loss of skin pigmentation, and weight gain. But you wont be depressed!!! __________________ We Must Dissent.

08-25-2003, 08:47 PM	#46 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	What, what, what? The theoretical legalization of marijuana is hinging on its harmful effects? Apparently I have entered a Twilight Zone in which alcohol and tobacco do not exist . Seriously, I for one won't debate the harmful effects of marijuana. Short term memory loss, helpless stupidity, and, in some cases, debilitating apathy about elements important to your life, like hygeine, employment, and a social life. But you could apply all of those symptoms to alcohol, respectfully, except for alcohol (and tobacco's) addictiveness. Also, it's important to keep in mind that if I promote legalization, that doesn't mean I don't have a problem with kids sparking up a fatty. That's kind of silly. Regulate it and tax it. Severe fines for those caught growing it without a license. I don't think personal pot gardens will be such a problem, not compared to bathtub gin, or pouring rubbing alcohol through a loaf of rye bread. Just treat it like alcohol. Can't drive and smoke. Can't drive while high. Can't smoke in a public place that doesn't have a license. I prefer pot over alcohol, because pot doesn't make you sick, doesn't make you think you can take on 300-pound Kung Fu masters, and is an order of magnitude less likely to negatively affect your life. But it won't happen any time soon, with the pharmeceutical industry. Also, don't overlook hemp legalization, which the logging industry would put up an impressive fight against. Alcohol is a drug. Cigarettes are a drug. Chew is a drug. Only one of them has some mildly positive health effects. Marijuana, however, has been proven to provide many health benefits. A college friend of mine turned to marijuana when no legal antidepressant could help. Even though it's supposed to be a depressant, marijuana lifted his gloom and allowed him to be a successful, energetic, and social individual. Marijuana is also a decidedly non-violent drug. You will never jones for marijuana. If you think you're jonesing for it, you've never tried heroin. That, my friend, is jonesing. Friend of mine had this anecdote, where he was asking someone how they'd quit marijuana, and the guy said, "I haven't quit. I just haven't scored in eleven years and two months." Marijuana will never do that to you. Pot proponents will never be pushy. "C'mon, man, have a drink! Loosen up! Drink it!!!" "Never had a cigarette? Take a puff, be a man." Marijuana? "Hey, dude, you want a puff? No? Okay." Share and share alike. No one gets down on you if you don't want to try it. It's not for everybody. It's not a rite of passage. Just a thing you might want to do to have some fun, to lift your spirit, to take care of a headache, a stomach ache, etc. Okay, no more rambling from me. If you don't like pot--that's your thing, I respect it. If you know somebody who became a loser because of it--yes, that happens. Though usually that's a symptom of a deeper problem in their life, not the pot itself. Unlike alcohol and tobacco, which can manifest their addictions irrespective of your life experience. I personally think everyone should try it once. It's not like it makes your head explode or anything . Don't want any? That's cool.

08-29-2003, 01:56 PM	#51 (permalink)
Theresa Upright Location: Olympia Washington	Personally, I hope that it isn't legalized. I am no conservative either. If marijuana was legalized I can't imagine what kind of additives companies would put in our weed to make it more addictive than it already is. Just like they do to cigarettes. The government would put high taxes on it. Or at least I assume they would. If you tried to grow it and sell some and didn't report it you would still be charged with money laundering like many growers are today. I do think marijuana should be decriminalized though. We need to save jail cells for rapists, murderers, child pornographers, etc.

08-29-2003, 09:51 PM	#52 (permalink)
legolas shit faced cockmaster Location: CT	I don't know but it doens't look like anytime soon. No matter how many people are for it, it doesn't seem to pass. __________________ "To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."