Mojo_PeiPei

The Bush Admin is pretty dead set against this. But how long do you think it will last? Weed is legal in alot of Europe, Canada doesn't really pay mind to it, do you think it could be legal in 5 years? As is the trend the Liberals in Europe set the bar and we join them a few years down the line.

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Zeld2.0

Well I'd say a lot of it is money run

You legalize it then those who hunt it lose their jobs / the money made on busts and people there get pissed

But who knows, if you don't try, how would you know

Phaenx

I doubt it. Unless there are hard facts that come out in the near future that totally contradict the already proven effects of marijuana, and weren't from hightimes, then it won't happen.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

MacGnG

...soon after it is completely legal in canada. if it was legalized, it would be cleaner, and there would be much less "drug related crime"

zenmaster10665

I think you will find that a great deal of "Drug related crime" is from physically addictive drugs (i.e. Heroin, Crack, Cocaine, etc)

I personally think that the main reasons that Marajuana is illegal in the states are:

1. Puritanical religious influences in the US government
2. The fact that weed is incredibly easy to grow and is, therefore, not easily taxable.
3. The tobacco lobby in the US.

Possibly, in a few years, as the tobacco companies continue to lose battles and are forced to spend less of their monies on PAC's, we might see a but of a shift...I dont think anything will happen until then.

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Charlatan

Not while this administration is in power... They love to suck the fun out of life...

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lurkette

I think legalizing it on a federal level is bloody unlikely - too many opponents in high places. But if it goes state-by-state (similar to medical marijuana legislation), we might see some progress. All it would take is one or two states to start the ball rolling and we'd see court challenges that might open things up a bit. Here's hoping.

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The_Dude

we have a war on terror now to replace war on drugs.

another way to waste money.

if the US ever legalizes, it will be under a democratic congress cuz i dont think the conservatives want people smokin pot.

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Lebell

All of this is purely conjecture, but I don't see it being legalized here before it is legal in Canada and then, probably not for another 5-10 years after.

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Darkblack

I actually think this will happen eventually. I am sure it will be controlled by the tobacco industry exactly as tobacco is.

JumpinJesus

This, I believe, is one of the greatest obstacles in its legalization - aside from the pharmaceutical lobbyists.

Just about anyone who knows how to water a plant can grow their own. This makes controlled growing and taxation difficult. If it were legalized, would you pay, say, $25 for a pack of 5 joints or would you buy your own pack of seeds for $10 and grow your own indefinitely?

Of course, this is only my opinion, I could be totally wrong.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

lurkette

I'm curious what you all think of the following conspiracy theory, which did not come out of my sick and twisted mind. I read it somewhere else:

Drugs will never be legalized in the U.S. because the criminal drug industry has too much to lose (presumably through the costs of regulation and taxation, competition driving down the prices, market controls, etc.) and would exert financial or other less pleasant persuasive pressures on key government officials (presumably politicians at various levels) to prevent legalization.

Discuss.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Bill O'Rights

In as much as I hate to say it...it does sound very plausible.


Anyone else having a high school flashback? Brrrrr.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

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BigGov

Marijuana will be legal when the tobacco companies want it to be legal. Plain and simple.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

eris

I think the efforts in Canada & the UK will help the cause - but it will take some serious pressure from the public to make it happen in the US. And that's not about to happen underneath the current admin - nor any of the other lame assed candidates on the bill for 2004...

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allhaileris

2wolves

1. A plant you can grow in your living room and can't be taxed is EVIL!!!!! EVIL I say!!!!

2. The beer & distilled spirits industry would suffer another severe hit. Please see opensecerts.org to see how much they donate to politicians ever freaking year. It isn't chump change.

3. The current neo-con position that anything that might be enjoyed more than their true fever feelings has to be bad for America.

4. The continued federal stance of ignoring that cannabis is the, and I do mean top, cash crop in a number of states.

5. How else can the privatization of the penal system be justified unless there is a constant stream of dis-satisfied customers.

The above points don't apply to me as I'm forced to urinate into a cup every month or so to maintain my employment. I would personally opt for cannabis over any other legally available rec chem but it just isn't to be.

2Wolves

oldman2003

There is one thing you have overlooked...the "breathalizer". This was a main issue before most of you were even born. When I was a young buck working in the factory, ...to keep it short...we were pulled over. The trooper smelled pot. We were arrested. They wanted to drug test me. I sat in a room with two of Michigans' finest troopers reading a manuall on how to draw blood with a needle...They had some new expermental test. They wanted my blood. They were not doctors. They never did this before. I was scared as hell! I got straight real quick! After four hours they just let me post bail. Drove us back to the car. One trooper told me it was thier opnion that as soon as they could test for pot with a breath test it would probably be legal...

That was a different world. Too much "black" money is being made to legalize the devils weed. Check out what Attorney General John Ashcroft is doing right now...drug use = terrorism!
Sorry but I can't find the link to back up my statement so you will have to take it as a 'grain of salt'. I read it somewhere today while searching on the PATRIOT II..but that is another topic. Thanks.

Dibbler

OK, Billy Clinton made smoking regular cigarettes a major no-no. Drinking beer is a major no-no. Now potato chips are a no-no.

Do you really think that any of the guys in Washington DC will really say "well joints are ok though"

It's a pipe dream..........

constant

I think all drugs should be legalized and all drugs including alcohol should have the 18 and over law. All drugs should also be HEAVILY taxed.

BigGov

Missed this oneDrugs lords have pocket change compared to big tobacco.

The tobacco companies control the legalization of marijuana. Even if the drug lords somehow wanted to interviene, they wouldn't have a chance. Besides, a politician would much rather be labeled to be in the pocket of big tobacco than a drug lord that orders people be killed because someone's infringing on his turf.

JumpinJesus

To a certain extent. Marijuana has also been shown in studies to aid in headache relief, prevention of weight loss in chemo and aids patients, pain relief in sufferers of glaucoma and numerous other health benefits. Eli Lilly and other pharmaceutical companies have probably had more influence than anyone - aside from William Randolph Hearst - in keeping marijuana illegal.

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captwheelz23

Once they legalize weed in the United States, you will see the number of casual users decrease, mainly due to the taxes that will be added, as well as the attitude change towards smoking pot.

The question then becomes, how long do you wait before you soon the marijuana companies for the "addictive" components??

oldman2003

I found it! Check out this artical....I don't see pot ever becoming legal in this country...

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60129,00.html

Nizzle

The article states that significant portions of the draft "faced broad opposition from conservatives and liberals alike and embarrassed the Justice Department when it was leaked to the press in February."

Let's not all panic yet. Senator Orrin Hatch is pretty extreme.

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Nizzle

krwlz

Yea, as much as I hate to say it....thats I hate that about conservatives. I am conservative about most things, but damn, most of us are the fun police!

TaLoN

hmmm, the proven effects being what?? i haven't heard of any proven negative effects. (government studies are not proof). i would like to see some

Phaenx

The ones most smokers shrug off as the man trying to steal their pot:

Course, you don't need a scientist to tell you what the problem is. It's certainly not the television that's sucking out the potheads intelligence, ambition and so on.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

MacGnG

Marlboro Cannabis Cigarettes
Cannabis Camels
Really Kools
The Best: Cannabis pFunks (Parliament)

"Hey It Could Happen..." and thats why we only have to wait....
YO TOBACCO PPL... MAKE WEED LEGAL!

EDIT:Lurkette has a very good point but who has more power, tobacco lobby, or the organized crime "lobby" ??

2wolves

With tongue planted (not too) firmly in cheek:

The harmful effects of marijuana on the Brain and Central Nervous System

Impaired thinking, mood, memory, and coordination .

OK, now let us compare and contrast with legal drugs like alcohol.

Number of cannabis induced rages in the history of mankind...........0

Number of alcohol induced rages this past weekend........................see your local battered women's shelter.

2Wolves

Phaenx

"Dude, I ate all your twinkies"

"I'LL KILL YOU....woah....my hands can touch anything but themselves......oh wait..."

Lets just ban alcohol and ciggerettes.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Nizzle

You mean like Islamic nations?

That doesn't sound very American to me, sir.

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Nizzle

Phaenx

Being drunk off your ass all day and beating your wife isn't very American either.

Nice try though.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

BigGov

I think it failed so horribly the first time we shouldn't dare try it a second time.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Nizzle

Beating anyone is already illegal.

But you're right, drinking all day is a bad thing, so we should make it illegal. To carry this notion further, I'd like to suggest we make driving illegal to solve the problem of hit-and-run drivers; ban the Capitalist notion of private property to prevent theft; and, last but not least, repeal the First Amendment to put a stop to people saying nasty, un-American things.

While we're on the subject, how do you feel about repealing the Second Amendment so we can get the guns out of the hands of criminals?

Your line of thought is refreshingly Liberal once you take it to its logical extremes. I applaud you.

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Nizzle

Phaenx

It's easy when you put words in my mouth and then take them out of context =).

There's a line to cross when you're destroying yourself. I don't care if someone sits home all day getting drunk and smoking pot, it's when their lifestyle encroaches on anothers that it becomes a problem. Those were cute analogies though, I'll clarify by saying I am for driving, private property and the first and second amendment.

Now, personal attacks aside, why do you think we should legalize a destructive invasive drug like marijuana, Nizzle?

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Nizzle

Because I don't think it's a destructive, invasive drug?

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Nizzle

Nizzle

I'd like to clarify that the purpose of that post was not to suggest you believe these things, but to demonstrate the sophistry of your argument.

Criminalizing something because it can, in theory contribute to a negative effect is a slipperly slope. One must draw the line based on common sense, solid evidence, and an objective assesment of the pros and cons.

Anyone who has done more than cursory research into the history of the cannabis plant in America knows that this has not been done; the original lobbyists responsible had less than the welfare of smokers in mind.

I don't smoke pot, and I don't read High Times, so please do not generalize that all supporters of legalization are potheads. I don't label all supporters of Bush as redneck Christian fundamentalists. Stereotyping your opposition doesn't really give credit to your arguments or position. What it does demonstrate is an unwillingness to take your opposition seriously. You are welcome to feel that way, but it discredits the notion that your assessment is objective. Who are you to "draw the line" if you won't listen to the other side of the argument. That slope leads into the pit of fascism.

Good, so mind your own business.

Can you explain to me how people who smoke pot in the privacy of their own home encroach on you?

I know. The post was satirical. The concept it outlines is (I feel) valid.

I answered this in the previous post.

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Nizzle

JBX

I think for medical purpose, 10 years, recreational long long time.

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Phaenx

I posted all the proven cons with many impartial studies backing them up. These aren't theories, lets see what you got.

There is also about as much proof alcohol is bad for you as there is marijuana. Why not ban alcohol since marijuana is so bad? I've heard the reverse (alcohol is legal so pot should be too!) more than once from the legalize crowd.

First things first. Prove marijuana is not harmful. Then that would almost be relevant.

I don't recall ever generalizing people in favor of legalization, I have however made fun of potheads numerous times. If you would be so kind as to point this out to me.


It's is my business when someone goes around dumbing themselves down like this and I have to work with or for them.

I used to do production work at a computer joint with a few potheads who would regularly talk with each other rather then work, not come in to work, and produce shotty work when they did. This was a problem for me because we were expected to work as a team, or in other words I carried the whole lab the entire time I worked there.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Nizzle

Yes, this is a scientific paper outlining negative health effects. There are thousands of such research papers with impressive credentials on them that all say different things. This thread would not be very interesting if we sat here and posted them to each other all day. If you want to find similar studies that "prove" the side effects of marijuana are benign, then spend about 5 minutes on Google. There are a lot of doctors and research scientists who not only believe recreational use of cannabis is benign, but that it has positive side-effects in treatment of many illnesses.

I think it is pretty clear that the "legalize crowd" does not feel either of these substances are as bad as you are suggesting. In addition, there are strong indicators that whether they are harmful or not, illegalizing them has far worse consequences. Here are a few ideas to toss around:

1. We are spending a massive amount of tax dollars to incarcerate drug offenders. The number is rising rapidly.

- According to ONDCP, federal spending to incarcerate drug offenders totals nearly $3 Billion a year -- $2.525 Billion by the Bureau of Prisons, and $429.4 Million by Federal Prisoner Detention. (Source:_ Office of National Drug Control Policy, "National Drug Control Strategy: FY 2003 Budget Summary" (Washington, DC: Office of the President, February 2002), Table 3, pp. 7-9. )

- Over 80% of the increase in the federal prison population from 1985 to 1995 was due to drug convictions. (Source:_US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 1996 (Washington DC: US Department of Justice, 1997).

2. Having a substance which is illegal creates drug trafficing. If this substance were legal, controlled and taxed it would eliminate a large section of criminals who make ridiculous amounts of money peddling. Money made from the sale of marijuana (and saved by not filling the prisons with drug offenders) could be used to fund education and social programs. Perhaps drug use would even decline. And if not, we would still save a lot of money.

3. Cannabis has been illegal for decades, and its use is still increasing every day. Your War on Drugs is a failure.

4. Please study the history and consequences of prohibition for a realistic reason why making alcohol illegal would not be a rational move.

I really don't feel that whether it is harmful or not, and to what degree, is really the important issue. There are other questions: of personal freedom, the effects the War on Drugs has had on our economy and social structure, and the denial of medical marijuana to those who are known to benefit from it. These issues need to be balanced in order for me to consider your argument credible.

I agree, there are probably some things about recreational use of cannabis that aren't that great. I also know that eating too much grease, salt and saturated fats is just as bad, if not worse. There are studies to "prove" this. Whether they should be illegal or not is not determined by that alone.

This is what I think:

- There are some harmful effects of chronic marijuana use
- There are some serious problems with it being illegal that need to be considered
- There are some benefits to making it legal

What I want is rational discourse that takes all these factors into account.

"Unless there are hard facts that come out in the near future that totally contradict the already proven effects of marijuana, and weren't from hightimes, then it won't happen."

This statement implicitly declares that anyone who disagrees with your "proof" has gotten it from High Times, and is therefore a pothead (I don't know anyone else who reads High Times). The assertation that there are no credible studies on the benefits of medical cannabis is pretty silly. There is a large volume of such information.

I'm sorry, but it is the job of your employer to handle this situation, not the Federal government and the penal system. I don't want my tax dollars spent to police your workplace. This is what drug screening, effective management and employee performance reviews are for. And if your employer chooses not to police this, then you should find another job. This is a free market, and no one forces you to work anywhere.


edit: fix typo

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Nizzle