mixedmedia

I don't know how much more 'truth-telling' I can stand.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Tully Mars

Wow, ok... January is going to be fun.

I do love how the right, Fox News et el consistently uses the "What if?" mode of attack. What if Obama is really a zombie, robot, vampire sent from another planet to destroy the US? Seriously that would be bad, right?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Wes Mantooth

But isn't that what politics in this country have boiled down to anyway? Fear of the other side? Emphasising the what ifs, the unknowns and rephrasing positions to make them sound more positive or negative all to keep people from looking outside of their political safety zones and costing the party votes or support. Both sides do it and its amazing how well it continues to work in this day and age with all the information we have right at our fingertips.

__________________

Amaras

I think you hit it right on the head, Wes.

I always wonder, why all this praise for American democracy when there
are only two choices, it seems.

Aren't there more shades of gray?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

mixedmedia

I am beginning to have the same sentiment about America as I do about 'heaven.'
Why would I want to be there if it's just full of a bunch of assholes? Call me anti-American if you need to, but this is not the America I signed onto many years ago. I've been betrayed.

The problem is not just that one side tries to make folks 'fear' the other, it's that the things people are being told to fear right now are totally fucking ridiculous. Fairy tales and boogey men. It's embarrassing.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

This is why I find American politics maddening to watch. I couldn't imagine being a voter down there.

Canada's House of Commons currently consists of 4 parties and 2 independents. One of the parties---The New Democratic Party---is a social democratic party. They are actual card-carrying socialists, and they hold more than 10% of the seats.

In Canada, we actually have an option to vote for socialists. So every time I hear about the fear-mongering south of the border about Obama and the socialist threat and the "Marxists" in power putting the republic at risk....I take turns between rolling my eyes and laughing.

It's because Obama is clearly more right than the federal party I have actually voted for. He's a liberal, not a social democrat. From what I've read, most Americans are rather ignorant of social democracy.

In Canada, you get shades of gray. You get Third Way, Blue Tory, Red Tory, liberal, social liberal, social democrat, neoliberal, separatists, nationalists, etc., all pulling in different directions. You know, one of those governments that form coalitions and stuff, rather than just having two warring families tearing Verona apart.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Amaras

BK, I'm down with you on this, seriously.
Use the word social, and they lose their minds.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

Wes Mantooth

Technically we do have those shades of gray here, Libertarians, Green Party, Independent, Tea party, Socialist, Centrist, Communist, and many others. The problem is the big two (Dems and Reps) have a monopoly over the system, they have the money and the backing to completely over shadow anybody else running from any party...but you could probably write a book about that came about and I don't think I have the energy to post it here.

The interesting thing is on the local level you do see these parties gaining power or at least winning elections but for some reason that success just isn't translating to the national political scene, maybe someday it will.

__________________

Tully Mars

Most of those who whine about socialism taking over the US couldn't pass a freshmen high school test defining socialism is my guess. But you get clowns like Beck using his caulk board to detail to you how John Rockefeller was really red commie bastard and reality flies out the window.

Really as long as things continue down this path I think things could get really bizarre. I read some of what a few of the tea party candidates want and really they want to end a bunch of federal programs. Everything from Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, the public school system to the FDA to the IRS. And obviously the new health care program. I wonder how many of the folks cheering them on would be ok with suddenly having to pay for their kids to attend school? Or I often see people of retirement age at these rallies, do they seriously want their SS and medicare to disappear? Most of the time when I speak to people on this side of the fence it really comes down to them wanting smaller government... for other people. They want their SS, they want their medicare. I'd be willing to bet most would want health care or unemployment if they suddenly needed it too. I'm damn well willing to bet they want the police and or fire dept. to show when they call too. Everything costs money. The military, lots of money there. Roads and infrastructure. Hell even getting rid of your shit cost money. Are the tea party folks going to start building their own sewer systems?

I think we seriously need more choices when we vote. For years it's been the lesser of two evils, which has been pointed out is still evil. But we need people with serious ideas for these serious problems. I don't think Beck, Palin and the tea party folks have any ideas that will not cause more harm then good.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

roachboy

there's no necessary connection between conservatism and clown time. but there is a deep american tradition that makes the two identical. like there is in alot of places but bigger. what's changed over the past years, and has accelerated over the past 2-3, is the degree to which the institutional right has crawled into bed with the far right. i think that's new and it's dangerous. it has implications that run well past this ""fear or the other side" business--which strikes me as arrogant, the sort of thing that only makes sense if you believe in some god who's amurican or some invisible hand that likes the us above all other places---a fading imperial delerium in short.

and there's really nothing at all comparable on the left, which was subject to waves of repression in the united states since the late 1800s, which was never allowed to become a mass movement as it was in europe because here in the land of the free and all that the right spent a whole lot of energy cowering before it's imaginary left and directing armed violence private and public in order to strike out at it. think the fate of the one big union or the coal field wars or the wobblies or the violence that accompanied unionization in the automobile industry---thugs who are the direct ancestors of the contemporary right.

what's amazing to me though is the extent to which political discourse in the states has been made to be degenerate--and affair of and for the ignorant---maybe via the televisionization of politics but more through the rise of the populist right funded with very deep pockets that happen to be attached to authoritarian assholes like the koch brothers of the coors family (among others). and this political discourse does not speak to or for anyone--at all---whom i know. and almost everyone i know is entirely alienated from the present clowntime. and no-one understands why clowntime encounters no friction, or how it came to pass that there's only one party in the united states with two right wings that squabbles about tactics. on and on.

so alot of people don't recognize themselves in this clowntime america, the one that you see being cycled and recycled talking head to talking head, political operative to political operative, all shilling advertisements, all quite committed to the idea that consumption is democracy because it's easier that way---american democracy is a distant fiction, a memory if it every existed, replaced with a soft authoritarian system. consumption likely seems more "real" and shallow---well that's the american way. cheap steak tough and bonzo substantial as gil scott-heron once said about ronald reagan.

it'd be sad if it wasn't so fucking pathetic.
but i digress.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Wes Mantooth

What I meant by fear of the other side is that trying to create that fear is a big part of both parties strategy to keep people voting along the party line and continuing to dismiss the other side regardless of how good or bad the candidate or idea really is. If you create an image in peoples minds that every conservative candidate is a right wing nut job or that every liberal candidate is a socialist in sheeps clothing you're effectively fear mongering people into not exploring their political options by creating a false impression of every candidate from president on down to park supervisor.

We've created a system where people aren't really looking at the issues anymore, just the letter next to the name and assuming its the best fit for them. This fear mongering and hyperbole has caused our two party system to thrive, people to vote against clearly superior/competent candidates and at times against their own best interests amongst other things. If we'd stop looking at politics as a team sport and instead encouraged people to focus on the issues regardless of who or where they come from we'd go a long way in repairing our political system.

__________________

mixedmedia

I agree with the words and sentiment behind this post and I also reject the idea that what we have here is an equally matched political stand-off with both sides implementing the same boogey man material in different costumes. There is not a real liberal left power base in this country that possesses any measure of true legislative influence yet millions of people are being told every day that the 'liberal scourge' is taking over America when in reality the current administration is sitting solidly in the political center.

I know rb has mentioned it many times before, but now it seems so clear. By portraying the decidedly centrist 'liberal left' as radicals and socialists, the architects of conservatism have been able to justify moving their political base further and further to the right.

It's curious.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

As a Canadian, I'd like to remind Americans that many of us view your politics as a spectator sport. You guys are high-profile worldwide, and you're just next door to us. Many of us watch you guys pretty closely.

When Obama took office, it was pretty exciting for a number of reasons. For one, it came after the circus of a presidential campaign that we enjoyed very much. Also, many of us were relieved to see Bush leave office and to see a Democrat become president.

But when the health care thing cranked up, many of us became rather confused.

You see, we're old hands at universal health care (we love you, Tommy). But when you guys started tossing around this plan for insurance schemes or whatever it ended up being, we were all like, "Um, what?" It's universal health care. You're doing it wrong. Where's the single-payer? Where's the public option?

If any of you guys are afraid of the socialist agenda, fear not: no one currently in office knows how socialism works.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Wes Mantooth

We do see it on both sides though, just in different ways. How many times have we been told that voting conservative will result in the loss of minority rights, reproductive rights or social programs for example when clearly that doesn't always happen just because a conservative is in power. Both sides are trying to portray the other as a bunch of radical, mindless fools out to destroy our country at any cost by placing a huge emphasis on the fringe elements and ignoring pretty much anything else.

We are doing ourselves a huge disservice as a nation if we don't hold both sides accountable for the ridiculous things they do to stay in power.

__________________

ring

"a fading imperial delerium in short." Well said, roach, all of it.

roachboy

i just don't think it's that easy, wes. you may be describing a rhetorical parallel, but rhetoric always functions in specific spaces. and in this case of the contemporary united states, the spaces--institutions in particular, media that those institutions support etc.---are not symmetrical. it's empirically not the case.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Wes Mantooth

Well that's why I choose to say differently RB. Truth be told I find much of the political climate on the right to be off the chart stupid at the moment and its only made worse by the large media machine they have in place that can and does spread some of the ridiculous stuff we are seeing today...but I do try to weigh the difference between the candidate, the idea and the party. Anyway my overall point wasn't really who was worse but rather that both sides are guilty of the same thing (just in different ways and on different levels) and its having a negative impact on our society in the process. We need to be vigilant in all cases, not just the extreme, in policing our political process so we don't have to keep making the choice between the lesser of two evils.

__________________

Tully Mars

Both sides do it but the levels of BS on the right and their ability to create a boogie man far exceeds the left, imo. Fox, Rush, Beck et el have been pounding away at "the liberal media" for years, which is any thing that doesn't come from the right. Beck's now really hammering anyway at US higher education, whats he call them "reeducation camps?" Really the point is to get as many people as possible to dismiss anything that doesn't come from the right. You can't have people believing in stuff like facts or university studies. If they do that they'll see stuff like every time the right is in charge the debt increases, spending increases, the wealthy get more wealthy and the number of actual middle class families that sink into poverty swells.

For years the right has managed to get people to vote against their own interests by using wedge issues. Gay marriage, abortion etc... That's not working well now that the economy has tanked. Need a new wedge, a new boogie man. Now it's Obama. He and his policies are the boogie man. He's a Muslim. He's a socialist. He's really not born here, he's Kenyan. He believes in some odd Kenyan anti-colonial agenda. You're out of work? It's because of Obama and his socialist programs. It has nothing to do with the fact the economy was in a free fall and we were in 1.? trillion dollar debt after 8yrs. of GOP control. Bush and his folks spent 8yrs digging the US economy into a hole and now that Obama hasn't been able to turn it around in 18 months or so it's his fault.

It's all be design. It's all to get as many people as possible not to look at the facts. The GOP and right were in charge of just about everything for most of Bush Jr. 8 yrs. The result was a tanked economy and a massive debt. The right screams the debt is too high, taking zip responsibility for their role in creating that debt. By pushing their boogie man theory they're able to get people to protest against the debt while pushing to raise that debt by continuing the costly Bush Jr. tax cuts across the board. They hate debt... unless it's a result of their spending agenda. Really pretty amazing... and disgusting all at the same time.

If the right actually did what they say and made smaller more effective government I'd be happy to vote for them. But not once have they done that. Some how I doubt they're going to do it now.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Baraka_Guru

Beck and his kind bank on the fact that the average person hasn't taken Economics 101. That's where you can slip in voodoo and call it theory, and if it smells Keynesian, it must be socialism. You can sell ideas that promise something from nothing, and if the government does something you don't want or understand, then it's automatically bad.

People are criticizing a government that taxes and spends and has trouble balancing the books. Bush had two terms of cutting taxes and spending like there were no tomorrow. Now Obama has taken the helm of a ship that was in the process of running aground. He's employing tactics that have been used before to try to avert a crisis and/or pull the nation out of one, depending on your perspective.

It's not that Obama doesn't want to balance the books. It's just that balancing the books isn't always a good idea. But let's remember: Democrats have a better history of balancing books than Republicans.

I can't believe people expect balanced budgets in a post-W era in the fallout of one of the greatest economic downturns in the history of America. It was a much better time to balance the budget between 2001 and 2008---a much better time---but what happened there?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Tully Mars

The right basically has two answers to every question.... cut taxes and No. When Bush Jr. took office there was a surplus... answer cut taxes. The the economy started to flatten out... answer cut taxes. Then even without the costs of two wars being included in the budget there was a deficit... answer cut taxes. Now we're in a massive hole and it's slowly, very slowly turning around... the answer of course is cut taxes. And anyone that doesn't agree cut taxes is the answer is a socialist.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cimarron29414

tully,

I think you stating that Beck, Palin and tea party candidates want people to have to build their own sewer systems is pretty much identical to the "lies" that you believe Beck to be telling. You may be losing your perceived moral high ground on the matter.

If you would like to discuss a Libertarian philosophy on how these systems remain in place but are removed from the Federal purview, I would certainly love to talk to you about that - perhaps in PMs.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Tully Mars

I never stated 'they want them to" I asked "are the tea party folks going to start building their own sewer systems?" I don't think I've twisted your words and I'd ask that you not twist mine. If you're going to twist my words at least have the courtesy not to question who's on moral high ground in the process.

I ask that question because I honestly do not know, from reading and watching interviews, what the solutions are as planned out by most tea party followers and candidates. Really most of what I read and see is "cut this... end that... repeal this... no, no and no." Most of these ideas make good slogans, good sound bites but the reality of them in action I greatly question.

Feel free to PM me anytime or simply start a thread and post your thoughts on "Libertarian philosophy."

I posted earlier I would vote for a conservative if I thought they'd actually do what they say they're going to do, but history shows they've failed repeatedly. I will tell you I did vote Bush the first time around and put serious thought toward voting McCain in 08. If the McCain of 2000 was still running in 08 I would have been more convinced. Then when he picked Palin and started making comments like "the economy is strong" when the DOW was in a complete free fall I lost a lot of my respect. At that point in time he looked like a lost old man and I didn't trust him with running the country. But I'd always respected McCain for his anti pork stand and I'll be interested to see how things play out in Alaska when Miller is elected. That state has been sucking on the fed teat so long if he does what he's promised I don't think a lot of Alaskans are going to like it.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cimarron29414

tully,

There's no need to take offense. I'm not twisting your words.

Your post reads like a Glenn Beck segment: "I'm not sayin', I just sayin'...the tea party candidates want END SS and all government infrastructure programs..." It's creating fear based on incomplete sentences - connecting dots that aren't supposed to be connected. Re-read it from the perspective of someone else, rather than with all of the other thoughts you have that you didn't type due to time constraints. I think you will find it jumps to conclusions which aren't exactly true.

While it might be true that some candidates want to end social entitlement programs, it's not a plug-pull. I have never heard any candidate say they would close S.S. next week. In every case, it is a phase out, where people around the current age of 45 would receive no SS benefits. That age is significant because people of that age would easily be able to invest the SS offset and come out better than the SS benefit (which they have invested their entire career!). I might be wrong on that age, it's around there.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Tully Mars

No you twisted my words. I never said, as you claim, that Beck, Palin et el want people to build sewer systems. I very clearly asked what do their followers want or expect? You're free to claim you didn't... but you did. For the record I'm not offended.

Connecting the dots is what I'm asking people who subscribe to this ideology to do... because I don't understand it. See when I hear tea party members saying they want to end SS, health care or do away with the IRS and dismantle the federal reserve I have yet to hear what they plan to do with the end results of those actions. I recently watched an interview with Miller the tea party guy from Alaska. He clearly stated he in fact does want to get rid of SS, he mentioned his parents are on it and they depend on it but over time it needs to be phased out. How that was going to be done became very vague... as did the time line. Just as you describe above it's not really clear what the plan is other to end it. I will say your answer is less vague then his. Near I as I can tell, from trying to follow this ideology, is anything that looks like the government providing for individuals needs to stop because it socialism and socialism is evil.

As for your concept to end SS I don't think it's realistic for a couple reasons. One I think people are going to need to start saving way before age 45. And what happens when the money they invested disappears in another market collapse? Or is there some way to invest that will ensure you never lose your investment? Personally I retired at 45... but I started panning for that at age 20 when I joined the Navy. Not everyone is going to be able to do that. I worked full time and ran a small business on the side. My side business was construction and remodeling. I remember working one Christmas installing a new floor in a bar (was the only day they closed) and it dawned on me I'd spent the previous Christmas doing much the same. I went home and looked at my calendar and I'd worked well over two years without one day off. I started turning down work after that. But with the way the economy is going I may have to return to work sooner or later. I'm alright with that, I was working two jobs when I pulled my on plug and headed for a beach. If I have to go back to working one job, at least I've had a few damn good years while I'm still able to enjoy it. But I would like things to be going well enough to find work if it comes to that.

Another question I have for the tea party folks is how do they plan on getting the budget back in balance? Every time I hear them they make it sound like just stopping the programs they attribute (a few of which were started by Bush Jr.) to Obama will solve this problem. Obama was in a 1.3 or 1.4 trillion dollar hole the day he took office. What's the plan for turning that around? I have yet to hear that addressed. Well not address by any workable solution.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

roachboy

well, given that it's primary day in some places...the national press is focusing a bit of attention of delaware as a showdown between the republican party and tea partiers. ej dionne, whom i've never regarded as a rocket scientist, outlines the conflict this way:

PostPartisan - The Tea Party: From rebellion to absurdity

all kinds of interesting little bits in this though--like who gets to claim grassroots power in the conservative movement? who gets to determine what is and is not conservative for that matter? opening round of an interesting fight that will, if luck holds, implode the right.

that's my hope anyway.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Interesting take by the author of the article. Another take is how inept and out of touch Castle is to be threatened by a candidate like O'Donnell.

And if Independents and Democrats want to select Republican candidates, they should change their party affiliation to Republican.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

like i said, ace, i'm rather hoping to watch this split inside the right to grow and blossom and flower into the implosion of the whole conservative movement. i would enjoy watching it. that would make me laugh and laugh. so i hope that no-one does anything, no-one says or does anything.

let's watch the right eat itself.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Wes Mantooth

Well maybe they will go completely off the rails over the next couple of elections, certainly falling apart and losing even more power then they already have should be the sign that maybe its time start to redefining the conservative movement to better reflect reality more then silly ideologies (I thought those were reserved for liberals?). I for one wouldn't mind seeing it taken back from the fundies and fringe groups and delivered back in the hands of much more grounded conservative thinkers who might actually have the countries best interests in mind and not the parties and certainly not the parties fringe.

__________________

Tully Mars

One of things I do agree with the tea party folks is the mainstream politicians in DC have not been acting in the interest of the people. I think things need to change, no doubt about that. IMO, just about every politician who makes it to DC is either already in the pocket of special interests and lobbyist or will be in short order. I disagree with the tea parties ideology, mainly because I don't think it will make things better. I also don't believe for one second they're a grass roots movement. I believe many of the followers believe they are but they're not. They're funded by Koch brothers billions and people like Dick Army and his PAC. They even have their own TV network promoting them for free.

Things should get interesting in Nov. now, no doubt about that either.

It would be nice to have some real grass roots develop on both sides. But I'm not sure that's even possible in US politics.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cimarron29414

tully,

I'll just have to disagree with your implication on the sewer system and leave it at that. We'll end up parsing your words and I don't think we should waste our time.

As for SS, the point is not that 45 is enough time to "save for retirement." That notion implies that the funds one gets from SS is adequate to retire - which, clearly, they are not. Rather, that 45 number is the time you need to invest your SS money in the market and have it equal the money you would have received from SS. So, you get your SS money back into your paycheck, you invest it, and roughly the same point in time you would receive SS that money would be there (but in an IRA instead.)

Also, keep in mind that the market has made money in every 7 year stretch since way, way back. So, there will be valleys, but the net is always a gain. The recession is a debt recession - too much debt. When one views the current trend of private citizens, they are using their money to pay off their debt. Consumer debt is dropping rapidly because people are getting rid of it.

The government is not learning this lesson. The three largest budget items are military, SS, and medicare. So, politicians are going to target them in their rhetoric for responsible spending. A traditional republican will most likely target SS and medicare in a speech, while a traditional democrat will target military spending. However, that's just rhetoric.

The hard facts is that cuts have to occur across all three. We can debate the constitutional responsibility of the Federal government to provide for the general welfare of the people - it always boils down to that in the end.

With SS (or the spirit for which it was intended), you could have a better affect by simply writing a law that says "3.5% of gross income must be placed in a private IRA." Every citizen would immediately be better off. Then, one simply has to keep the promise of SS to everyone who's about to be or is currently on SS - and that's where phase out comes to play (that magic age of around 45). It's sticky and there will be hurt feelings, but effective leadership from citizen representatives (as opposed to politicians) means putting the country ahead of a career - especially when representing your state was not supposed to be a career.

The fact is that SS and medicare are not untouchable. We have to stop assuming they must remain no matter what.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

aceventura3

The Castle defeat is not complicated. As a career politician, someone who received a government paycheck his entire career, Castle attacks O'Donnell, a person that most can Identify with, for having financial problems. He does this during a recession, an explosion of government debt and government growth. Castle, a real man of genius, he earned his defeat.

Now the established national Republican party is making a similar mistake. The establishment has two choices, adapt or get defeated. It is not going to be a contest, it is not going to destroy the Republican Party, it is simply time for change. This "movement" is serious and has been from the begining. At first, people wanted to dismiss it, then minimize it, then say it is ruled by extremists, then say it was fake, then say it is racist, then say it will destroy the Republican Party, and I guess next they will say Tea Party candidates can't win general elections and be proven wrong yet again.

Ironically, Palin became governor of Alaska by defeating the Republican Party establishment.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

no it isn't hard to understand. the right has been playing a poujadiste game for almost 2 years now and the chickens are beginning to come home to roost.

Christine O'Donnell, The GOP Establishment, And Republican Suicide | The New Republic

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

No games are being played.

One person casts one vote on election day at their local polling place for one candidate. Any establishment candidate or party who takes this for granted does so at their own peril. Core values come before political party affiliation, it is not the other way around. Perhaps it is shocking to some that there are people who do not compromise their core values or if they have in the past to go back to those core values in challenging times.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Derwood

This is where things get fuzzy for me: why would the Tea Party support O'Donnell? She seems totally the opposite of what they stand for (smaller government, etc.) This is someone who has been on the record as supporting the "legislation of morality".

So does the Tea Party actually stand for something, or are they just "anti-establishment" at this point?

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

filtherton

There is no shortage of tea party members who would love nothing more for the government to enforce their strict moral rules on everyone.

Derwood

That's not very Libertarian of them

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Baraka_Guru

That's fine. Most of them probably aren't libertarians.

The Tea Party isn't a libertarian movement, it's a protest against stimulus spending and health care reform.

There is no unified political makeup, no leadership. And with that, you get an environment ripe for mutation.

Sweet, sweet mutation, bring us your delicious moral alarmism.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cimarron29414

bg-

I agree with you completely. Except, I think the original tea parties (as events) were as much about the "how much is this shit going to cost me?" component. I don't really care about the spending, I care about the taxing. If they want to have a bake sale on the Capital steps to finance a bridge in Alaska - no problem. If Pelosi and Frank want to give hummers at $50 a pop to finance the saving of San Francisco's salt water marsh mouse, I'll bring them each a pillow for their knees. Topless carwash at the White House to support a new food initiative? Go for it.

It ain't the spending - it's what happens after the spending.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Tully Mars

What about the money already spent? At this point you can't continue the tax cuts without borrowing more money... which is spending. That was true the day Bush Jr. left office and true today.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cimarron29414

Well, in my utopia, there would be a Constitutional amendment requiring balanced budgets. The only thing worse than a Tax-and-Spend politician is a Spend-Then-Tax politician, which is what we have now.

...and this will all go back to job creation.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."