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Old 09-11-2010, 01:40 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Derwood View Post


and your point is... ?
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:52 PM   #162 (permalink)
 
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really, all this blah blah blah socialism blah blah blah from the right is about red-baiting. good old fashioned all fascist american red-baiting. and it's no surprise given that the daddy of the koch brothers founded the john birch society.

what's a bit more surprising is discovering that despite the myriad economic catastrophes caused by conservative economic ideology that people still repeat it as if it has anything to say about the way out of the current mess we're still in. it's more a map of the ways of thinking that caused alot of the mess. but the right has somehow managed to persuade itself that it's not linked to the policies of the bush administration or to the history of the new ultra-right since the reagan period. go figure.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:00 PM   #163 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
and your point is... ?

that Obama is right of center, just like most of us have been saying
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:04 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
really, all this blah blah blah socialism blah blah blah from the right is about red-baiting. good old fashioned all fascist american red-baiting. and it's no surprise given that the daddy of the koch brothers founded the john birch society.

what's a bit more surprising is discovering that despite the myriad economic catastrophes caused by conservative economic ideology that people still repeat it as if it has anything to say about the way out of the current mess we're still in. it's more a map of the ways of thinking that caused alot of the mess. but the right has somehow managed to persuade itself that it's not linked to the policies of the bush administration or to the history of the new ultra-right since the reagan period. go figure.
translation:
liberal social progressivism = good
conservative capitalism = bad
... that sound about right?
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:09 PM   #165 (permalink)
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i believe that's roachboy's personal opinion, yes. Doesn't mean you're not entitled to yours
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:07 PM   #166 (permalink)
 
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not exactly otto.

translation: the economic ideology you rehearse is responsible for the disastrous economic reality all around us--so why should anyone take it--and by extension you, since you choose to repeat it---seriously at all?

and it makes no sense that anyone would vote for candidates who espouse exactly the ideology that is responsible for this mess---they'd be the last people capable of fashioning ways to address it.
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Old 09-11-2010, 06:19 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
not exactly otto.

translation: the economic ideology you rehearse is responsible for the disastrous economic reality all around us--so why should anyone take it--and by extension you, since you choose to repeat it---seriously at all?

and it makes no sense that anyone would vote for candidates who espouse exactly the ideology that is responsible for this mess---they'd be the last people capable of fashioning ways to address it.
So as long as it's different, then it's better? Which economic ideology do I practice? The one where I don't live beyond my means? Where I plan and budget for the care and welfare of my family? Donate my time, talent, and hard earned money in the service of others in need? Are we talking about that economic ideology? If so, then yes. And I expect our leadership to honor their office by ruling with these similar basic values.

How does that fit into your world of stereotypes?
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Old 09-11-2010, 06:48 PM   #168 (permalink)
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So as long as it's different, then it's better? Which economic ideology do I practice? The one where I don't live beyond my means? Where I plan and budget for the care and welfare of my family? Donate my time, talent, and hard earned money in the service of others in need? Are we talking about that economic ideology? If so, then yes. And I expect our leadership to honor their office by ruling with these similar basic values.

How does that fit into your world of stereotypes?
That economic theory is fine, and I wish the government lived within it means and taxed people the right amount when it needs the money, instead of lowering taxes to boost the economy and then say that is the new standard.

The problem I have with Beck and the conservative tea party is that I am afraid of them lowing taxes for corporations and the upper 10%, while sitting by while the rest of America turns into Detroit and they don't care. Now if the Libertarian tea party led by Ron Paul took office, or a Green tea party that would really lead to personal freedom from government and corporations, that would be another story.
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Old 09-11-2010, 09:26 PM   #169 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Derwood View Post
that Obama is right of center, just like most of us have been saying
Ah... a consensus! So Hitler, Stalin, all conservatives, the Green Party, Gandhi, and Obama all got together and filled out a questionaire? No doubt labcoats and clipboards were involved.
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:53 AM   #170 (permalink)
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Thread seems to have taken yet another turn.

Derwood, what is the source for your graphs?
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:37 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tully Mars View Post
Thread seems to have taken yet another turn.

Derwood, what is the source for your graphs?
i'll dig up the links. The bottom one was from a site that came out around the time of the 2008 primaries. It asked you to answer a battery of questions about a variety of social, economic and policy issues, then plotted you on a graph based on your answers. The graph I showed had real politicians plotted based on where THEY stood on the given issues
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:59 AM   #172 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
Ah... a consensus! So Hitler, Stalin, all conservatives, the Green Party, Gandhi, and Obama all got together and filled out a questionaire? No doubt labcoats and clipboards were involved.
Yes, and we'll know nothing about Obama until he fills out a questionnaire for us.

Hitler, Stalin, and Ghandi are dead. So we'll never know their stance on anything. Pity.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:04 AM   #173 (permalink)
 
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I am still trying to get past this:
..."the investigative accuracy and persistence from the likes of Beck and Andrew Breitbart. With their limited resources, they've produced some amazing investigative reporting..."
Otto, I guess I was asleep again and missed the insightful, honest and objective reporting of these two intrepid "journalists."
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:20 AM   #174 (permalink)
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Otto, I guess I was asleep again and missed the insightful, honest and objective reporting of these two intrepid "journalists."
We all know this isn't entirely the case, and even Beck has admitted as much. These are commentators, not journalists whose modus operandi is objective reporting. Beck has admitted that. Calling commentators journalists is like calling columnists journalists.

Beck would like to believe he's being insightful and honest, but he knows he's not being as objective as a journalist. Let's call a spade a spade.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:16 AM   #175 (permalink)
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We all know this isn't entirely the case, and even Beck has admitted as much. These are commentators, not journalists whose modus operandi is objective reporting. Beck has admitted that. Calling commentators journalists is like calling columnists journalists.

Beck would like to believe he's being insightful and honest, but he knows he's not being as objective as a journalist. Let's call a spade a spade.
He frequently admits they are not journalists and routinely begs for investigative reporters to look in to the things they uncover. He maintains an open challenge to prove him right or wrong on a topic. If wrong, he will lead with the correction. They also created a direct phone line for the White House to call with corrections.

Again... there's frequent references here to Beck's honesty. And again and again it turns out that these claims are emotionally driven rather than factual. It's OK to dislike someone deeply. But perpetuating the perception that someone is dishonest doesn't make it so without substantiaton. You are entitled to to your opinions.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:20 AM   #176 (permalink)
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I am still trying to get past this:
..."the investigative accuracy and persistence from the likes of Beck and Andrew Breitbart. With their limited resources, they've produced some amazing investigative reporting..."
Otto, I guess I was asleep again and missed the insightful, honest and objective reporting of these two intrepid "journalists."
I read that and really just assumed why bother. When dealing with people who think beck et el are accurate, insightful or honest it's pretty much a lost cause I think.

I mean using Beck's logic and caulk board I could connect the hail bop comet, the ice age and the idiots on the "Jersey Shore" to the raise and fall of Obama's poll numbers.

But his "believers" seem to eat it up with a "wow, that's so true!" awe about them.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:23 AM   #177 (permalink)
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Anyone who believes Libertarianism is equivalent to Anarchy is too ignorant to debate.

As soon as I saw that graph, I disregarded it...as all others should.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:30 AM   #178 (permalink)
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So what about telling people he checked and no other Potus had ever been sworn in on anything but a bible? Or claiming CO2 wasn't a poison? What about the simply fact he stated Walters approached him when he in fact approached her... something he himself admitted wasn't true?
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:31 AM   #179 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux View Post
I am still trying to get past this:
..."the investigative accuracy and persistence from the likes of Beck and Andrew Breitbart. With their limited resources, they've produced some amazing investigative reporting..."
Otto, I guess I was asleep again and missed the insightful, honest and objective reporting of these two intrepid "journalists."
Well... you are a sleepy-head. There's time to catch up.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:40 AM   #180 (permalink)
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Anyone who believes Libertarianism is equivalent to Anarchy is too ignorant to debate.

As soon as I saw that graph, I disregarded it...as all others should.
Well I think taken to an extreme it could become anarchy just as authoritarian societies could become fascists.

I'd still like to know the sourse or study behind the graphs but I wouldn't dismiss them entirely over that wording.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:50 AM   #181 (permalink)
 
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otto---it's always a pleasure to see you trying to dress up your projection-based relationship to "journalists" like glenn beck or breitbart as if they are somehow based on something else, laughable fictions like journalism or integrity. what these two buffoons have in common, though, is that they allow people like you to float in the warm yellow liquid of a sense of solidarity and to imagine yourself a bubble of foam amongst lots of others, all cozy and nice and together against those mean nasty socialists/liberals/progressives/terrorists/devils/pinkos blah blah blah. shame about the metal handle overhead. someday someone's going to pull it.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:58 AM   #182 (permalink)
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I read that and really just assumed why bother. When dealing with people who think beck et el are accurate, insightful or honest it's pretty much a lost cause I think.

I mean using Beck's logic and caulk board I could connect the hail bop comet, the ice age and the idiots on the "Jersey Shore" to the raise and fall of Obama's poll numbers.

But his "believers" seem to eat it up with a "wow, that's so true!" awe about them.
I don't believe I said Beck is always accurate. He's as human as anyone. He consistantly makes corrections for errors. A lie requires the intent of deception. However, in your dismissive statement, it's evident that you have no first-hand basis for your opinion. Is it your intent to be inaccurate or are you just content with sources that are emotionally appealling?
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:02 AM   #183 (permalink)
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I don't believe I said Beck is always accurate. He's as human as anyone. He consistantly makes corrections for errors. A lie requires the intent of deception. However, in your dismissive statement, it's evident that you have no first-hand basis for your opinion. Is it your intent to be inaccurate or are you just content with sources that are emotionally appealling?
You're defending Beck and his antics and you think it's possibly my intent to be inaccurate or content with sources that are emotionally appealing?

Do you own any mirrors?
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:21 AM   #184 (permalink)
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otto---it's always a pleasure to see you trying to dress up your projection-based relationship to "journalists" like glenn beck or breitbart as if they are somehow based on something else, laughable fictions like journalism or integrity. what these two buffoons have in common, though, is that they allow people like you to float in the warm yellow liquid of a sense of solidarity and to imagine yourself a bubble of foam amongst lots of others, all cozy and nice and together against those mean nasty socialists/liberals/progressives/terrorists/devils/pinkos blah blah blah. shame about the metal handle overhead. someday someone's going to pull it.
Wow... that must be big-boy talk. You want to break any of that down and talk about it? I'm sorry to dare challenge all the neat stereotypes and stray outside the group-think. It's the same on conservative forums... don't dare dispute the broad brush. It pisses them off too.

---------- Post added at 02:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

Quote:
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You're defending Beck and his antics and you think it's possibly my intent to be inaccurate or content with sources that are emotionally appealing?

Do you own any mirrors?
Yes and yes... I can provide complete mirror inventory. I noticed you haven't answered the question.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:33 AM   #185 (permalink)
 
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no worries, otto. i expect your dissonance filters would have treated almost anything that doesn't square with your view of the world in the same way.

but poor you, subject to all these unpleasant stereotypes because the media characters you defend are obvious charlatans. poor you that the deep Thinking hidden behind all these one-dimensional and fatuous sentences you write isn't appreciated. the indignity of it all.

but it all that from your informational world. but frankly, once we move beyond the tenuous interest of these "debates" that never ever go anywhere, it's really of no consequence to me what you choose to fill your little head with. enjoy your favorite charlatans and chimeras and whatever patterns of repeating exactly what you're told to repeat floats your boat.

btw if you have trouble with the big-boy speak, move your lips when you read. go slow and you'll be fine. i have faith in you, otto. always have.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:52 AM   #186 (permalink)
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Yes and yes... I can provide complete mirror inventory. I noticed you haven't answered the question.
Oh, I get it you make a quip about my "dismissive statement" and expected a serious response to yours.

Umm, ok...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
I don't believe I said Beck is always accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
"the investigative accuracy and persistence from the likes of Beck and Andrew Breitbart. With their limited resources, they've produced some amazing investigative reporting"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
He frequently admits they are not journalists and routinely begs for investigative reporters to look in to the things they uncover. He maintains an open challenge to prove him right or wrong on a topic. If wrong, he will lead with the correction. They also created a direct phone line for the White House to call with corrections.

So, according to you Beck has "investigative accuracy and persistence" but you never meant to imply he's always accurate? Yet you acknowledge that he himself states he's not a journalists. Sure that all makes sense. Now go ahead and break out Beck's caulk board logic and show me how these statements are compatible.

No wonder you like Beck your logic goes in as many, if not more, circles then his.

Quote:
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your dismissive statement, it's evident that you have no first-hand basis for your opinion. Is it your intent to be inaccurate or are you just content with sources that are emotionally appealling?
How is my "first hand knowledge" any more or less lacking then yours? And seriously Beck's whole act is being emotionally appealing. Even brings him to tears on a occasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
A lie requires the intent of deception.
This is nothing more then the old "yeah what he said wasn't true but he didn't really mean (or know) it was untrue defense, ergo no lie." It's a BS defense and if people used it to defend the likes of Micheal Moore I seriously doubt you'd believe it for one second.

You think he told people he checked and no other POTUS hadn't used an bible to take the oath of office accidentally? Or did he accidentally forget he didn't really check? Personally think his intent was to incite as many Christians as he could by inferring Obama is not like them, he's not a Christian and you should be fearful of him.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:17 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Beck doesn't lie?

So you mean that Rockefeller was indeed a communist mastermind that created the rockefeller center as a massive tribute to global communism, and that his one world communism agenda has been picked up and is being promoted today by the UN, George Soros and Barack Obama?
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Old 09-12-2010, 02:38 PM   #188 (permalink)
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Anyone who believes Libertarianism is equivalent to Anarchy is too ignorant to debate.

As soon as I saw that graph, I disregarded it...as all others should.
It's not meant to be read as anarchy = libertarianism or vice versa, nor is it meant to say that authoritarianism = fascism (or vice versa) or left = communist, right = neoliberal, etc., you get the point.

It's generally stating that moving into the realm towards pure anarchy is what libertarianism does, whereas moving into the realm towards fascism is what authoritarianism does. These things work in degrees, not absolutes. That's how you get libertarian socialists who are by no means outright anarchists.
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:40 PM   #189 (permalink)
 
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otto:

Please provide some examples of the amazing investigative reporting of Beck and Breitbart.

It should be enlightening or at least entertaining.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:53 PM   #190 (permalink)
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The Political Compass - Test

that should get you an answer to where YOU fit on that graph

here's mine:

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Old 09-12-2010, 06:24 PM   #191 (permalink)
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The Political Compass - Test

that should get you an answer to where YOU fit on that graph

here's mine:

That shows how you scored... how or who came up with the scores for the other people you posted?
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:38 PM   #192 (permalink)
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That shows how you scored... how or who came up with the scores for the other people you posted?

presumably the people at the site took the test using each politician's viewpoints
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:33 AM   #193 (permalink)
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anyone ever heard of this?

someone tells a lie (with intent and possibly even through mass media channels)

it's proven to be a lie (maybe even the liar invites people to expose the lie because they are so cocky, uh, I mean ethically, politically and financially disposed to the truth)

but people continue (prefer) to believe the lie even though the truth has been told

that never really happens, does it?
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:04 AM   #194 (permalink)
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anyone ever heard of this?

someone tells a lie (with intent and possibly even through mass media channels)

it's proven to be a lie (maybe even the liar invites people to expose the lie because they are so cocky, uh, I mean ethically, politically and financially disposed to the truth)

but people continue (prefer) to believe the lie even though the truth has been told

that never really happens, does it?
The phrase "death panels" comes to mind.
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:22 AM   #195 (permalink)
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yeah, or how about 'Swift Boaters'
that's a real blast from the past
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:32 AM   #196 (permalink)
 
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"trickle-down economics"
i like that one.
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:08 AM   #197 (permalink)
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I've always been fond of "Al Gore claims he invented the internet." Which of course wasn't true yet many Cons to this day believe and repeat it.

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derwood View Post
presumably the people at the site took the test using each politician's viewpoints
Ok, well really then without further info on who created the profiles for people and really how the test was created and by whom it doesn't seem like a very credible source. From the web site you link all I could find was it's a product of "Pace News Limited" which seems to be an on-line newspaper out of L.A. started in 1995. I really don't know much about them. Do you?

It might be more credible then I've been able to verify. For all I know it was created by the political science dept. of some highly regarded university and the profiles entered by credible historians. But it seems like if that were the case they'd have a banner on the page stating such and they don't.
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Last edited by Tully Mars; 09-13-2010 at 08:54 AM..
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:07 AM   #198 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tully Mars View Post
I've always been fond of "Al Gore claims he invented the internet." Which of course wasn't true yet many Cons to this day believe and repeat it.

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------



Ok, well really then without further info on who created the profiles for people and really how the test was created and by whom it doesn't seem like a very credible source. From the web site you link all I could find was it's a product of "Pace News Limited" which seems to be an on-line newspaper out of L.A. started in 1995. I really don't know much about them. Do you?

It might be more credible then I've been able to verify. For all I know it was created by the political science dept. of some highly regarded university and the profiles entered by credible historians. But it seems like if that were the case they'd have a banner on the page stating such and they don't.
Fair enough. I'm sure if I dug deeper I'd find more websites of that kind that might give more info on how they did things. I'll see what I can find
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:23 AM   #199 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derwood View Post
Fair enough. I'm sure if I dug deeper I'd find more websites of that kind that might give more info on how they did things. I'll see what I can find
Like I said the test and the data it presents maybe more credible then I've been able to verify. Simply without knowledge of how or who actually did it it's impossible to say, IMO.

I will tell you one of the reasons I quickly questioned it was, much like Cimarron, I glanced at it and immediately thought "that doesn't seem right." I had different questions then him(?) but still had questions. Mainly how does the "Green party" and Nader score closer to libertarians then authoritarians? I mean IMO Nader and the "Green Party" are very interested in telling people how they should live. They want all kinds of control, don't they?
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:32 AM   #200 (permalink)
 
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or this, just in case you imagine there's a bottom to the stupidity that conservatives feel authorized to say:

Quote:
Gingrich: Obama’s ‘Kenyan, anti-colonial’ worldview
September 11, 2010 10:52 P.M.
By Robert Costa

Citing a recent Forbes article by Dinesh D’Souza, former House speaker Newt Gingrich tells National Review Online that President Obama may follow a “Kenyan, anti-colonial” worldview.

Gingrich says that D’Souza has made a “stunning insight” into Obama’s behavior — the “most profound insight I have read in the last six years about Barack Obama.”

“What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]?” Gingrich asks. “That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior.”

“This is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he is now president,” Gingrich tells us.

“I think he worked very hard at being a person who is normal, reasonable, moderate, bipartisan, transparent, accommodating — none of which was true,” Gingrich continues. “In the Alinksy tradition, he was being the person he needed to be in order to achieve the position he needed to achieve . . . He was authentically dishonest.”

“[Obama] is in the great tradition of Edison, Ford, the Wright Brothers, Bill Gates — he saw his opportunity and he took it,” Gingrich says. Will Gingrich take it back in 2012? “The American people may take it back, in which case I may or may not be the recipient of that, but I have zero doubt that the American people will take it back. Unlike Ford, the Wright Brothers, et cetera, this guy’s invention did not work.”

“I think Obama gets up every morning with a worldview that is fundamentally wrong about reality,” Gingrich says. “If you look at the continuous denial of reality, there has got to be a point where someone stands up and says that this is just factually insane.”

Gingrich spoke with NRO after the premiere of his new film, America at Risk.
Gingrich: Obama?s ?Kenyan, anti-colonial? worldview - The Corner - National Review Online

so to the extent that this latest bit of gringrichiana makes any sense at all, he's saying that---somehow---obama is connected to the mau-mau---which is a fucked up way of---i think----calling him a "terrorist" in modern parlance.

this is quite possibily the most idiotic statement i have seen from anyone in public life ever.

for an overview of the puzzlement it's generated:

Quote:
Gingrich: President Exhibits ‘Kenyan, Anticolonial Behavior’
By MICHAEL D. SHEAR

Newt Gingrich said this weekend that President Obama exhibited “Kenyan, anticolonial behavior,” an observation that drew angry if puzzled responses from Democrats and questions about Mr. Gingrich’s meaning and motivation.

Mr. Gingrich, who is mulling a bid for the Republican presidential nomination in 2012, made the comments to National Review Online. He was quoted by the conservative Web site as saying: “What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anticolonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]? That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior.”

Commenting on a recent article in Forbes by Dinesh D’Souza, Mr. Gingrich told National Review Online that Mr. Obama “is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he is now president.”

“I think he worked very hard at being a person who is normal, reasonable, moderate, bipartisan, transparent, accommodating — none of which was true,” Mr. Gingrich was quoted as saying.

Mr. Gingrich’s comments drew sharp rebukes from the Democratic National Committee, which accused him of stoking the false rumors about Mr. Obama’s heritage and birthright.

“This crushes the hopes of those who thought Gingrich could bring ideas instead of smears to what the G.O.P. was offering,” said Hari Sevugan, the committee’s press secretary. “He’s not a reasonable man that some thought he could be. He’s proven he’s just like the rest of them. With a worldview shaped by the most radical and fringe elements of the Republican Party, which are more dominant with each passing day.”

The White House press secretary, Robert Gibbs, told George Stephanopoulos on ABC’s “Good Morning America” that “I don’t even have – quite frankly, George – the slightest idea what he’s talking about.”

Mr. Gibbs added that Mr. Gingrich “knows that he’s trying to appeal to the fringe of people that don’t believe the president was born in this country.”

“You would normally expect better from somebody who held the position of speaker of the House,” Mr. Gibbs said.

But Mr. Gingrich has been a bomb thrower since he was a backbencher in the House trying to work his way up. And in his years as a former politician, he has sought to grab headlines by sometimes taking extreme positions.

As he toys with a run for the Republican nomination, Mr. Gingrich has weighed in on the mosque controversy in New York, comparing the backers of the Islamic community center to Nazis. Those comments drew rebukes from some Republicans but earned him TV time.
Gingrich: President Exhibits 'Kenyan, Anticolonial Behavior' - NYTimes.com

it's hard to know what else to say about this.
sheesh.
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