Baraka_Guru

I'm sorry, Cimarron, this whole thing with Gore is a nonstarter for me. You're not even talking about civil disobedience.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Pearl Trade

Out of all the people you've talked to who like Beck and make jars like that, how many do you think would really act out in the wrong way?

To me, people who bring signs saying "we came unarmed...this time" and have "AOF" jars do it for shock value. "Hey, look at me, I made a clever sign." That type of thing. If it came down to a choice and there were only two options: take violent, aggressive action or wait and see what happens, what do you think most Beck followers would do? They're not going to start riots and kill people, that's for sure. It's easier for people to sit and watch, 99.99% of the time that's what will happen. Sure, Captain Insano will be inspired by a mis-quoted Beck line, but everyone else? Nah, they won't do jack shit. Cost is greater than the benefit to the people making stupid signs and "AOF" jars.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Cimarron29414

Tully,

I think it is only fair to make a distinction between people who directly attribute their acts to inspiration from another person and those who do not. People sharing similar political views with a famous person does not mean they were inspired by them - unless they state that they were.

I find what your dive shop buddies did repugnant. I would have torn that sticker of the front of the jar.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

FuglyStick

If you don't think there's a significant number of nut jobs who would gladly engage in violence to further their agenda, visit the comment section of a Fox News article. They're too cowardly to initiate any action themselves, but they're more than willing to go to the gun cabinet if someone else calls them to arms.

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AZIZ! LIGHT!

Cimarron29414

Good Lord MAN! Why are we even discussing whether Beck followers might or might not follow him into armed conflict when he hasn't even suggested that they do? Tell you what, when Beck calls on us to grab a rifle and meet him at the Capital, then we can speculate as to how many will show up.


Tully,

Does it matter that that guy was making Paine videos for years before Beck showed one of his videos on his show? Here's one from July, 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Funbobba.../5/pKFKGrmsBDk

My only point is that Beck didn't finance or encourage this guy. He just found it on the internet and showed it on his show. I think that point is relevant, as you implied Beck was speaking of insurrection through his paid actor.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Pearl Trade

You actually believe they mean what they comment? That mindless trolling shit is on CNN too, it's everywhere. Don't try to make it seem like Fox readers/watchers are the only ones spilling hate on the comment sections.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Willravel

Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City. Destroyed by explosive-filled truck put there by conservative Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols due in large part to anti-government fearmongering on the right, specifically the NRA's assertions about how President Clinton was going to take people's guns. 168 dead, nearly 700 injured. Should this rest squarely at the feet of the NRA? Should the NRA take responsibility for the Oklahoma City bombing? If you're going to lay the attack on the Discovery Channel at Al Gore's feet, why shouldn't we apply that same line of thinking to other examples of domestic terrorism? What about Joseph Stack? What about Scott Roeder? What about James von Brunn? Or Jim David Adkisson? I can go on all day long. I can link these sick people to Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and the slew of hate-mongers on the right who don't have an altruistic, caring bone in their body. All they want is their side to win so they get more money.

Al Gore is trying to save the planet and he gets this shit?

Cimarron29414

Tell you what, Will, I'll throw down the gauntlet. You go ahead and do what you said - directly link every single one of those people to at least one of those on your list. To keep it fair/equivalent, it needs to be a two way match.

All I want is a first person video or written word verifiably attributed to the criminal where he says he was inspired by one of them. I also want a first person video or written word verifiably attributed to any one of those famous people you mention who has called for "civil disobedience." Obviously, that "call to arms" needs to have occurred prior to the act of violence.

This all should be fairly simple, considering the copious notes you have taken on these right wing lunatics.

In lieu of this project, you could simply agree that the acts of criminals who DON'T state their inspirations can not be fairly linked to famous people just because they share similar views....and that people who DO state their inspirations CAN be linked to people who call for civil disobedience.

Third option is to ignore this post, you guys have gone bat-shit crazy and I just need to laugh you off.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Willravel

Because that's what you did with Al Gore above? Nice try. If you get to use a completely dishonest reading of "civil disobedience" to link Al Gore to something he clearly had nothing to do with, I get to use the same deceitful, intentionally dishonest tactic. With your line of reasoning, I could probably conclude Sarah Palin's responsible for the sacking of Rome.

I'm surprised you missed the point of my post. I'll try to include a neon sign next time.

Tully Mars

I really don't know what % are serious or how many would take actual action. I have two thoughts on that subject... it's doesn't take too many people to blow up a building, McVeigh proved that and two- almost all of these people talking that way now were the same ones saying stuff like "like him or not he's the POTUS, out of respect of the office if nothing else it's unpatriotic to speak ill of him." Now Bush Jr. is out and Obama is in and suddenly it's funny to make make stupid signs and "AOF" jars.

Plus I really do think the more Beck et el hammer on this the more likely we're going to see more stuff like the Pa. cop shootings.

---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------

No I really don't care how long he's been making them, Beck gave him national air time to do it and I think it was wrong.

And for the record when people on the left talked about (yes, even jokingly) about killing Bush Jr.I thought they were wrong too.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cimarron29414

Not dishonest. Did Lee take Gore's invitation to the extreme? Yes. And that's why it is irresponsible to use those words. Regardless, I don't think you will find any of those people who explicitly said they were inspired by someone on the list. You won't even get a one-way match. If you find it, I want a neon sign, damn it.

---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------

Well, considering that video had been viewed around 5 million times before Beck put it on his show, I'd say he didn't give the man a platform any larger than the one he already had.

Look, we can do this all day - and I don't want to.

I get it, Beck is a horrible person to you guys because his views don't represent your views. That's fine. We'll all vote in November and then we'll deal with those consequences.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Tully Mars

No Beck's a horrible person because he consistently lies and uses his national TV platform to make jokes about poisoning the speaker of the house and "pondering " "what if a million people stopped paying taxes?" Not to mention calling the POTUS a racists. Again what happened to all the conservatives who thought it was disrespectful to make derogatory statements directed at the POTUS? Especially during time of war, right?

Reverse the political leaning of the current POTUS, if he were a conservative and an entire TV network devoted as much time as Fox does currently insulting him and flat out being disrespectful would you seriously not think that was wrong? I mean I remember pundits like Randi Rhodes making some pretty far out there comments regarding Bush Jr. and conservatives went nuts. It was wrong when she did it and it's wrong when Beck does it now.

But you're right we could do this all day everyday... I have no interest. You want to believe Beck, fine by me. Myself I'm not buying his "Aw shucks" act.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cimarron29414

I don't "believe" him. I have a system of values which were established long before Glenn Beck existed in our visibility. Beck has not altered those values.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Tully Mars

Well at least we can agree on that... I don't believe him either.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

roachboy

curious--i spent a few days in the wilderness of meat-space without recourse to the net and when i return not only is this thread still alive but it's now taken a turn into that projection-space that has served the right so well, it seems---finding isolated factoids that can be (mis)interpreted in such a way as to imply (or say) that what conservatives are doing is reactive (so not radical) and anyway just mirrors what the Bad People are already doing (so is necessary). one function of this is that it enables the illusion that conservatism as a whole has not been shifted significantly to the right.

you can see beck et al playing a similar game with their emphases on imaginary losses of imaginary virtue which can be restored if only americans would get down on their knees. the question of who's standing in front of those americans is left open, but he calls himself "god" in the glennbeckian context and i expect the koch brothers have hired many focus groups to determine whether it's ok for people to call them god. fired the groups that didn't say yes likely.

but i digress.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ottopilot

Again, what lies? In response to the ABC Barbara Walters/Whoopie episode you mentioned before, they were given an itinerary from ABC which included their scheduled limo arrangements and a police escort to their reserved seats on the Amtrak train. What other facts are required to demonstrate that Walters and Goldberg knew of these arrangements in advance? Beck had not lied.

So what are the other "lies" you are referring? From comedy bits where they often joke about purposely absurd things to fuel the leftist bloggers and pundits? They do it all the time... "okay, here's something for the bloggers listening in your parents basement, ready at your computers, eating Cheetos in your underwear..." and then "blah, blah, blah". Then BINGO!... minutes later, they're reporting the absurd statements purposely fed to them by Beck. The Huffington Post falls for these special "quotes" every day. Beck and crew will even even say... "OK, here's one for the Huffington Post"... They (THP) post this stuff as headlines. It's hilarious fun! It's really very entertaining to sit back and watch the media go ape-shit over this stuff.

You guys who hate (Beck) so much should just admit you don't like the investigative accuracy and persistence from the likes of Beck and Andrew Breitbart. With their limited resources, they've produced some amazing investigative reporting that mainstream "real journalists" should be doing if they truly were "real journalists"... and not in the bag for all things Soros.

The calling of the president a racist may have been in bad taste. It came from a week-long examination of Obama's positions on reparations to be paid to blacks from whites, statements from the book "Dreams of my Father", and his 20 year membership of a church which teaches Black Liberation Theology. Perhaps a bit over the top? Could be...I'll give you that. It's indeed fashionable these days calling someone a "racist". Like saying "yo" and "dawg".

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Tully Mars

So why did he state no other POTUS had ever not used a bible to take the oath of office? Look we could do this all day and I'm not interested. As I've said before you want to believe him, fine go for it. I really don't care... but there's no way I believe him as an investigative reporter... something even he claims not to be in the "View' segment.

Really that's a new fashionable thing? Like "Hey, my main man you racists, what up?" I don't live in the US but I never heard the cruise ship folks or tourist use the word "racist" in a joking manner. I have heard them make racist statements directed at the locals, which is kind of sad. I followed one couple who remarked "this would be a nice place if it wasn't for all the Mexicans." Dumb asses... you're in Mexico, probably going to be Mexicans here.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Derwood

"Obama is a Socialist" is a good start

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

FoolThemAll

Not really. It's too muddied. There's enough to point at and say, "he's more socialist than Bush here" - which, of course, isn't the same as "he's a socialist" - to make this a less-than-obvious lie, if it's even close enough to being a lie.

I'd hope there's a more clear lie. I'd be surprised if there wasn't.

It seems enough to me, from the little I've seen of Beck, to say that he makes terrible arguments. It hurts more than helps to claim lies in debateable areas. It sets up a "that's the best they've got?" kind of mindset.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

boink

How about using vics vapo-rub under his eyes to fake crying ?

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when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

Tully Mars

I agree it's much easier to prove he lied about if any other POTUS had ever taken the oath on anything but a bible. Or simply watch the "View" clip. At about 2:40 into it Joy (whatever her name is) asked him why he would lie about whether Ms. Walters approached him or he approached them and he says "I don't know." Or when he claimed CO2 wasn't a poison because it occurs naturally. Lots of poisons occur naturally. Just like beck's lying, it just comes naturally. But most of the things that are out and out lies are usually small things. But he uses them, blended with a lot of opinion and a few facts, to paint a picture. A picture that makes a lot of Americans appear pretty un-American.

What he does isn't different then any other talking head on TV or radio. Right or left, red or blue they all do it. They skirt the truth and bend it just enough to make it "gray." Most of the time you really can't verify or disprove their statements to any "true believer."

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

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Baraka_Guru

I have the feeling that Beck operates more in half-truths than outright lies. I'd bet dollars to donuts that his whole operation could be downed by an eighth grader with a netbook, sitting next to him onscreen.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Tully Mars

Here again you have an example where it could easily be seen as lying or it could be seen as him simply hamming it up for a photo shoot. Personally I find his comment that "it's not working, my eyes are getting use to it" interesting. I find it very difficult to believe any ones eyes could get used to it if it were a one time thing. But I'll bet money that his follows and "believers" will see this as nothing more then a pro-mo photo shoot where he's seen hamming it up for the cameras.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

I think you're going to need a college aged journalism student.... eighth graders have better things to spend their time on.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Willravel

I'm only going to explain this once because I feel like spending more time on it would just be feeding a troll. Civil disobedience is a resistence to a specific laws or other governmental demands. If I refuse to comply with a law to protest that specific law, I am engaged in civil disobedience. The only possible way anyone could interpret this man's actions as any kind of civil disobedience is if he was protesting murder laws. He absolutely was not. There is no way at all to interpret what this man did as civil disobedience even if you accept this man was emotionally unstable.

Al Gore had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what happened, even in the most abstract sense. He's no more linked to this than I am linked to the fall of the Egyptian empire or you to the fall of Lindsay Lohan. It's not that your argument is weak, it's that it's nonexistent. No argument can be made, short of new and compelling evidence, to support your assertion.

aceventura3

Simple question, what is he? He certainly is not a free market capitalist. Is he some kinda hybrid. and if so a hybrid of what? And what is he closer to? Of he major legislative victories, have they been steps in the direction of socialism or steps in the opposite direction?

On a side note, I am very curious why socialists are not proud to be what they are? Can you name any proud socialists currently on the US political scene? Capitalist don't seem to have any shame, I am one, and I don't understand the other side.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

I view him as a liberal. He's generally a centrist...left of centre ever so slightly.

I didn't think the U.S. political scene had any socialists. Is that allowed?

As for proud liberals....could we say Dean, Kucinich, and the late Ted Kennedy? Maybe Al Gore?

It should also be noted that there are many socialists who aren't opposed to capitalism and free market exchange. There are entire political parties here in Canada who are such socialists.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Wes Mantooth

Yeah they are allowed and do exist (so do communists and a million other political ideologies) and from time to time they even get elected. I think Sen Bernie Sanders of Vermont is a Socialist or at least a self described one but like any third party they just completely get lost in shadows of the big two.

__________________

Pearl Trade

Maybe because the US is a capitalist society and socialism is viewed negatively by the vast majority.

And there are all kinds of socialist groups who are proud to say "I'm a socialist." You just have to look for them and do some research.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

aceventura3

Assuming a socialist falls under the general concept of a liberal and that (in current US vernacular), a socialist is never a conservative - you have not really said anything. Drill it down another few levels for us. A centrist is nothing, on big questions, you can not be on the fence. A person has to believe wealth redistribution is a proper role for government or not. what is a centrist point of view on something like that?

Yes, but they won't come out of the closet for some reason, I don't get it. Sure I understand the history and the McCarthy era, but this is 2010. As a capitalist I would love to openly discuss political and economic issues with a real socialist. I can not find any who will admit to being a socialist.

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

Being a greedy capitalist pig is view negatively. Being an arrogant SOB is view negatively. Being a card carrying NRA member is view negatively. Displaying a ego the size of Texas is view negatively. All of which I proudly claim. But that's just me, and I don't care what others think of me.

I will watch where I step, now that I am on notice.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Wes Mantooth

A centrist to me isn't somebody who sits on the fence over big issues but is usually more likely to be open to ideas coming from either side instead of dismissing them out right because of the letter next to the name. But often once they do decide which side they agree with on any given issue they tend to hold firm on that belief...sort of like a person who is maybe pro gun and pro choice or fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

Anyway I actually know a lot of socialists...I especially knew a lot of them when I was younger and in college but I think the ideology is often so at odds with our way of life as they grow older they simply adapt to the system and "socialist" is slowly replaced with the much broader "liberal"

__________________

Baraka_Guru

I don't want to write a treatise on modern liberalism in a thread about Glenn Beck, but to put it in a nutshell, liberals tend to support the idea of a social safety net, that people shouldn't suffer falling through the cracks of a purely capitalist system, that the state has some role in striving toward an egalitarian society. You get things like social security, health care, unemployment insurance and support, and welfare. They believe that people should have a minimum standard of living. They also support the idea of progressive taxation to help pay for it. This is where you get into "redistribution of wealth," but that has become a pejorative term. Liberals believe in capitalism and the markets, but they see the stability of a mixed economy. But you also get support for women's rights, gay rights, and the like, so there's clearly a social component as well.

Being a socialist in the U.S. must be difficult. Even democratic socialism gets much resistance. Hell, when you get the consensus that liberalism is socialism, what are you supposed to think? It'd be like taking right-of-centre/moderate conservatives and calling them fascists.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Pearl Trade

Centrist in the big picture. If you add all of his policies up and what his take is on issues, he is a centrist. Of course if you break it down to any specific issue, you'll find he is either one or the other, more liberal or more conservative.

I think that's what Baraka was saying.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Baraka_Guru

More or less. Liberalism occupies that space between socialism and conservatism. It came about as a surge towards bettering the life of the common citizen on the backdrop of exploitation and injustices meted out by the ruling elite.

It came to a point in the 19th century, when the public began pressuring government for changes to the way businesses operated (i.e. treated their employees). You had economies made up of robber barons who were, ironically, protected by the government via tariffs and other protective "nanny state" policies established for the benefit of businesses. Through the establishment of labour rights and laws, the workers, too, eventually received protection.

I think this is what drives Beck mad. This idea of a mixed economy. I think he would rather a pure capitalist or free-market economy, which is just as viable as a pure communist economy. Of course he'd want that. I'm sure he's pretty wealthy.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Wes Mantooth

Yeah I think it does too, he wants the US to operate the way HE thinks it should because it benefits him and only him (and I guess those like him) which completely ignores both reality...hell its just plain old bull headed stupid. Personally I've never understood how anybody can choose one side or the other, assume it has all the answers, dismiss all other ideas and opinions and somehow that's going to deliver us into some kind of utopian nation. No nation is going survive very long let alone thrive when one singular ideology rules all without question and yet its a very common for people to believe that.

__________________

Baraka_Guru

I don't think the problem is with the economic system in the U.S. (it's ingrained as a mixed economy, which is good). The problem stems from the world becoming a hell of a lot more competitive over the past 20 years or so. Combine that with a post–Cold War headache, a burgeoning debt, a global recession, and massive social change brought about by communication technology, and you get conservatives who freak out like Glenn Beck is.

Rather than playing on America's strengths, he would rather stick to the formula of cut taxes, cut spending, but without any real plan. Yes, you need to balance the books, but America is already paying low taxes compared to other nations, and cutting taxes at a time where debt is one of your worst problems doesn't sound like a good idea.

It's like telling an individual to request a pay cut and spend a bit less to help pay for his debt.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ottopilot

Neither you, I, nor Glenn Beck can truthfully say that the president is a socialist or not. It's opinion. Where's the proof? A membership card?

However - based on the president's own words, deeds, and associations, you may have a harder time demonstrating otherwise. This is one of those "if a duck quacks" scenarios where deeds speak louder than words.

So again, where is the lie?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

aceventura3

Like a Libertarian? I was in the Libertarian Party once, I did not consider them to be centrists.

Are you saying their personal greed for money, property and individual security sort of takes over, but that they still want to balance that with trying to control other people's, money, property and individual security?

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

I support a safety net for people, I don't speak for Beck but I bet he does too. the difference is in the details of the safety net and who/how it is administered.

---------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

Here is the visual picture a centrist presents to me based on what you wrote:

A drunkard trying to get from point A to point B wildly weaving left to right and right to left, at the end perhaps you can look back and say his travel was in the center of the road, but I don't see it that way. So for example, to have a guy talk about social justice but do nothing about "don't ask, don't tell", may mean to you that he is centrist, but to me it says he lack conviction and has no real core values. You either support social justice and equal rights for all or you don't. Obama is the President, he needs to act like it - he needs to be decisive not a centrist.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ottopilot

Or perhaps begin by demanding the government act responsibly with with our money and stop spending like an unsupervised child with its parent's credit card. Discipline begins with the individual. Honor, integrity, and compassion must guide our decisions. Until our leadership can demostrate these core competencies, what fool would hand them another dime? I'll take my chances with the free market anytime over a bloated undisciplined fat kid with his parent's ATM PIN (fat kid = Obama and congress).


If you want to better understand or classify the president's "isms", I'd look to the actions of Woodrow Wilson as an example. Obama is a classic re-branded Fabian progressive.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Pearl Trade

I don't think you understand what "center" or "centrist" means. Let's say I'm in the middle of the political spectrum, a centrist. I still have opinions, ideas, and convictions. I believe in things. You think that a centrist sits in the middle, does nothing, believes nothing, doesn't care. Your definition of being a centrist is wrong from what it really is.

A centrist is just as valid as a conservative or liberal. Being a centrist means you agree with some liberal ideas and some conservative ideas. You can be a decisive centrist or an indecisive centrist, the same with liberals and conservatives. A centrist doesn't subscribe to one side or the other, but that doesn't mean they don't believe anything.

If you're a liberal, you agree with most liberal ideas. If you're a conservative, you agree with most conservative ideas. If you're a centrist, you cherry pick from each side (nothing wrong with that right?)

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Derwood

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel