Seaver

The veil is only mentioned in a Haditha in an off comment by Muhammad.

I don't remember the verse (it's been half a decade), but Muhammad was sitting in a tent with an Officer. He basically asked where the daughters were, and the officer replied they're behind the curtain. Muhammad stated, that's good.

And that was pretty much it.

The veil was a MUCH more ancient tradition, which varies depending on where you go. The Mahgreb (N. Africa Coast) had old traditions where Men and Women are separated completely, women stick to the rooftops during the day so they can buy/sell items without ever seeing a man, and vice versa with the men on ground level. The cities are built so one can walk rooftop to rooftop. These cities existed as such when the land was primarily Christian, and continued on with the help of that off-cuff comment.

If you go to Egypt as a white american female and don't wear the veil nothing will happen. If you look Arabic without the veil as a woman you'll get cat-calls (they think you have lower morals)... but nothing worse than a good looking woman walking past a bunch of construction workers.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Idyllic

It’s in the Qur’an, see chapter 24, verse 31: In these next two verses the women are the wives of Mohammad so one can see where women of Islam would desire to follow in the paths of the most righteous women of their faith, the wives of the prophet. That would be a powerful incentive to be and/or remain veiled, so one could emulate the wives, outside of social views and/or Shar'iah alone. I now understand why it is said that the more virtuous women wore the veils while those of less virtue did not, the prostitutes, etc. This one will be difficult to traverse for women and still maintain their own sense of faith based oneness with their God, I find that kinda sad, imho. I also find it sad that I have to, in some sense, give up a bit of oneness with my God if I wish to deny that I am made form the rib of a man, for if I accept this as true doctrine, I can never be mans "equal", only what was once his property. But I do it because I have to for my own sense of equality within the human-race and I justify this as it was a necessity for man to place ownership on women at the time the Old Testament was written, but I don't live in that time, I live in this one. Sometimes religious doctrine hurts twofold.

Chapter 33, verse 55 and 59 respectively:I don’t have a problem with women who do not wish to expose their bodies, I have a problem with women and men who feel that only non-virtuous women will allow themselves to be seen in something like a bathing suit, and that by wearing a bathing suit females are already viewed as less virtuous, it is this thinking that sets into motions the belittling of women outside of doctrine and the excuse of harm upon them i.e. “she was asking for whatever attention she got, look at how she was dressed.” This mentality places on women the burden of self protection from a society who would use them merely because she wears less, who would view a woman as already devoid of virtue based merely on external appearance. If a woman walks down the street in a bikini how does this define her morals? In what way does what a woman wear prove her as chaste or unchaste. In FL, many women walk around in the scantiest of attire, but I cannot determine their level of sexual awareness based on the amount of skin they expose and for someone to assume that a scantily dressed female is less virtuous is, imho, wrong. I remember high school with many religious girls who were virgins who wore two piece bathing suits, what right do I have to judge them at all regarding their choice of attire? Modesty should be a personal choice but one that does not find definition or necessity of adherence for proof of anything in religious doctrines or rape will linger in religious societies as less than the crime against humanity that it is. In truly secular societies, no means no, period, even if a woman is stripping naked while swinging on a pole, who are we to judge their morality, go ahead, throw that stone (glass houses shatter easily). Sometimes I simply believe that religious doctrine (ALL confining religious/ideological doctrine), sucks the ability for humanity to progress within the “science of evolution” as humankinds’ most valuable cohesive element in this modern day of our existence.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

dlish

so im not even sure where you got that translation from. by the looks of it, but from reading that it seems to be either be a a literal fundamentalist translation, or a non muslim translation.

the thing is, your translating from arabic to english, and then adding to its text. so really anything in brackets is not found in any quran, but rather someones opinion. so youve got 3wo possibel errors with this translation..the error in the translation, the addition in text and the possible error within that context. it looks like theres more in brackets than isnt!

also, you're trying to tell me that islam promotes rape or even slightly promotes it, then theres no use having this conversation.

and yes i still stand by my comment, according to islamic moral code, which sets guidelines for dress and morality, if you're wearing a bikini in the street, how is that not exceeding those limits set.

people judge on what is apparent and what they see, and if i see a women walking around in a thong, i'm not going to assume she's going to church straight after. It's like seeing a pornstar with a cross around her neck, but she's still a believer right?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Idyllic

This is from The Holy Quran, tr. by Yusuf Ali, [1934], at sacred-texts.com, this is the version you suggested I read, I always try to read the closest to origin before I read later versions as they are less likely to be translated on modern view, though I am glad to see that some of the verse has been updated to a more modern thought, it still exists within the text, the veil, covering oneself to “prove” virtuous faith, even chap. 33, verse 55 states who it is o.k. to appear unveiled before though it does not use the term veil. The reality is that fundamental Islam is as alive and well within the Muslim populace as to is the fundamental Jews and the fundamental Christians. The veil is in the Qur'an, and as such can be used by extremist as a weapon of oppression, recognizing this is the first step to freeing the women who are subjugated within this doctrine. I am not speaking specifically of you dlish, nor your interpretation of the Qur'an (which appears to be more modern and giving to personal freedoms within your beliefs), just the reality of what is out their for the tyrannical extremist to use and what needs to be exposed to all Muslims who wish for personal freedoms outside of what doctrines these extremist use to manipulate and control.

Pickthall Translation:

Chapter 24, verse 31, followed by Chapter 33, verses 55-59:

From what I understand Pickthall is an older translations then Yusaf Ali and the two joined together to work on the Ali version, I have to say, from just this little reading, I like the Pickthall before Ali better, but I will have to read more before I make a definitive decision because as I read it again it comes across as though it is defining who the wives should "converse freely" with? Interesting and at times beautiful words, religion really gets me going, can you tell?

As for your other comment, Mary of Magdalene was said to be a prostitute who washed Jesus' feet with her hair, she was forgiven and became a great follower of Jesus, though I believe she became more. I have no problem believing that a porn star can have a valid and enriching relationship with God, she has that right, and I have not the right to deny her of it just because of what she does, do you, can anyone of us decide for another what is in their heart based on their sexual proclivities? Judgment is left for God in my eyes, not me..... I can demand, and within a secular society, fight to insure that those who kill or steal or lie (big lies, mind you, like insider trading lies), will be removed from society and placed away from hurting anyone else, but after that, personal judgments are just that, personal, imho. Human nature and social science should have little to do with personal faith, or God, in a secular society, again imho. Religious devotion is that which is between a person of faith and their God, period, imho. Who am I to judge that relationship, but I will sit on a jury and after hearing the pros and cons, judge the actions that result from ones faith, especially when a religious person uses that faith as an excuse for bad behavior or if they are found to be forcible and against my will, attempting to alter my faith or my relationship with my God, or attempting to deny me that personal right. Sometimes I wonder if this is what many Muslims believe American people are trying to accomplish. Do many Muslims you know or are around feel that Americans are trying to alter their perceptions of faith? Do Muslims feel threatened by Christianity?

p.s. Every religion that subjugates women owns this sentiment.
I have said over and over again how many religions and ideologies that subjugate women as possessions and place them within the confines of doctrine have lead to many religious men believing that women who do not live the life as doctrine deems virtuous are open to judgment by those who do and that those men will have a tendency to view these women as “asking for it”, this mentality is found all over in the teaching of oppressive doctrine in both the Old and New Testament (see 1 Corinthians 11) and the Qur’an (I will need to read other books to move farther than these three books). Don’t twist my words to fulfill the hate I am sure you have felt from others for I have felt it too, I have already stated I am not a hatemonger, the only thing I hate is tyranny, is terrorist, is people who use “omnipotent” doctrine as a controlling weapon over a populace unable to defend themselves and stuck within the words of their own faith, Christianity is a major player in this realm, why do you think I study religion myself if for nothing else than to expose my own need to remove that potential of oppression over me. If you are done with this thread, I appreciate you perspective and I have enjoyed our conversation, but I am not stepping on your toes, I am merely stepping, in a direction away from fear and toward education and personal religious freedom and the faith to live within my world as an equal and all that is inherent with said equality.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

dlish

idyllic,

just to clarify a few things, when you speak of versions of the quran, you need to remember, there is only one version, which is the arabic version. anything other than arabic is cosidered a translation.

Marmaduke Pickthall was the son of a pastor or reverend who converted to islam. he was born in the late 1800, as was Yusuf Ali. both became respected authorities in translating the quran and endorsed by the al azhar university in egypt. i have never heard that pickthall helped yusuf ali with his translation. maybe he did, but thats really besides the point.

as for the verses being updated to modern thought, again, the verses remain unchanged. its the translations that differ.

i do agree with you that there are fundamentalists in all religions as wella s all walks of life. there are fundamentalist athiests, fundamentalist communists, fundamentalists [insert group here].

i have nothing to gain from this thread, so i have no need to twist your words. im merely answering whatever queries you have. i hold no hate for anyone who asks. i am no scholar, im merely filling a void here.

what i do want to say is that muslims are not afraid of christianity. in fact i see it the other way around. you can ask any muslim about chrsitianity and they know the basics at the very least. i myself spent many years studying comparitive religion. you'll find that you can ask the general christian about islam, and you're bound to get blank stares. what i do find amusing is that you used america and christianity synonymously. but to answer frankly, muslims are not afraid of christianity's influence. what is a threat in the world (which isnt only a thread to islam) is commercialism and not a theological threat. from my travels around the middle east, ive found that western commercial influence is a far greater danger than any threat. some of those influences are a good thing, other may not be, but many can cause turmoil and havoc if introduced into a society that is not ready to accept them.

ive read mary magdalenes story, she may or may not have been a prostitute, but she's still worthy of forgiveness for whatever sins she may have committed. i cannot judge a pornstar by banishing them to heaven or hell. thats not my job, but if i see a pornstar with a cross on her chest, im barely going to think that she's a mighty servant of god since she's not adhering to the basic principles of her faith. its pretty simple.

as far as men using religious doctrine to control women, well thats about everywhere else in the world. men use power to control women, they also use money to control women. religion is just another add on to that, and its not confined to religion alone.

id like to just mention that i do have a lot of muslim 'fundamentalist' friends as you'd like to call them. they arent all as bad as you think. these people have a strong adherence to their faith and are resigned to practicing it. i see nothing wrong with that. they all have jobs, families and hobbies outside of their religious practice as well as live modern lives. my opinion is that you should get to know a few muslims to understand their culture, behaviour, practices etc. you'll find that they all dont live in the dark ages and they live similar lives to you and i. try it, you might surprise yourself.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Slims

I know this is an old thread, but I found an interesting paper covering specifically Sharia law and the perceived threat it poses (or will eventually) to non-muslim religions and political systems.

Here is the source: http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...2009142010.pdf


Here is an excerpt on the joys of Sharia Law:

The following are some of the most important – and, particularly for Western non-Muslims, deeply
problematic – tenets of shariah, arranged in alphabetical order. The citations drawn from the Quran, schools
of Islam and other recognized sources are offered as illustrative examples of the basis for such practices under
shariah.
1. Abrogation (‘Al-mansukh wa al-nasikh’ in Arabic—the abrogated and the abrogating):
verses that come later in the Quran, chronologically, supersede, or abrogate,
the earlier ones. In effect, this results in the more moderate verses of the Meccan period
being abrogated by the later, violent, Medinan verses. “When we cancel a message,
or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you
not know that God has power over all things?” (Quran 2:106)
2. Adultery (‘Zina’ in Arabic): unlawful intercourse is a capital crime under shariah,
punishable by lashing and stoning to death. “Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a
shameful deed and an evil, opening the road to other evils.” (Q 17:32) “The woman
and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred
stripes; let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if
ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness the punishment.”
(Q 24:2) “It is not lawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except for one of
three sins: a married person committing fornication, and in just retribution for premeditated
murder, and [for sin of treason involving] a person renouncing Islam, and
thus leaving the community [to join the enemy camp in order to wage war against
the faithful].” (Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, and An-Nasa’i)
28
3. Apostasy (‘Irtidad’ or ‘Ridda’ in Arabic): The established ruling of shariah is that
apostates are to be killed wherever they may be found. “Anyone who, after accepting
Faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in
Faith—but such as open their heart to Unbelief—on them is Wrath from Allah, and
theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.” (Q 16:106) “Some atheists were brought to Ali
and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, ‘If I had
been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying,
‘Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).’ I would have killed
them according to the statement of Allah’s Messenger, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic
religion, then kill him.’” (Bukhari, Volume 9, #17)
“Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst…..When a person
who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves
to be killed…There is no indemnity for killing an apostate…” (‘Umdat al-Salik, Reliance
of the Traveler, Chapter 08.0-08.4)
4. Democracy & Islam: Any system of man-made law is considered illicit under Islamic
law, for whose adherents Allah already has provided the only law permitted,
shariah. Islam and democracy can never co-exist in harmony. “And if any fail to
judge by the light of what Allah has revealed, they are no better than unbelievers.”
(Q 5:47) “Sovereignty in Islam is the prerogative of Almighty Allah alone. He is the
absolute arbiter of values and it is His will that determines good and evil, right and
wrong.” (Mohammed Hashim Kamali, Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence, 3d rev. ed.,
(Cambridge, UK: The Islamic Text Society, 2003), 8.)
“The shariah cannot be amended to conform to changing human values and standards.
Rather, it is the absolute norm to which all human values and conduct must
conform.” (Muslim Brotherhood ‘spiritual leader’ Yousef al-Qaradawi)
5. Female Genital Mutilation: “Circumcision is obligatory….for both men and
women.” (‘Umdat al-Salik, e4.3)
6. Gender Inequality: Shariah explicitly relegates women to a status inferior to men.
• Testimony of a woman before a judge is worth half that of a man: “And get two
witnesses, not of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and
two women, such as ye choose for witnesses.” (Q 2:282)
• Women are to receive just one half the inheritance of a male: “Allah thus directs
you as regards your children’s inheritance: to the male, a portion equal to that of
two females….” (Q 4:11)
• Muslim men are given permission by Allah in the Quran to beat their wives: “As
to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them
first, next refuse to share their beds, and last, beat them.” (Q 4:34)
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• Muslim men are given permission by Allah to commit marital rape, as they
please: “Your wives are as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when or how
ye will….” (Q 2: 223)
• Muslim men are permitted to marry up to four wives and to keep concubines in
any number: “…Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye
fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one, or a captive
that your right hands possess…” (Q 4:3)
• Muslim women may marry only one Muslim man and are forbidden from marrying
a non-Muslim: “And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-
Mushrikun [non-Muslims] till they believe in Allah alone and verily a believing
slave is better than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you....” (Q 2:221)
• A woman may not travel outside the home without the permission of her male
guardian and must be accompanied by a male family member if she does so: “A
woman may not leave the city without her husband or a member of her unmarriageable
kin….accompanying her, unless the journey is obligatory, like the hajj.
It is unlawful for her to travel otherwise, and unlawful for her husband to allow
her.” (‘Umdat al-Salik, m10.3)
• Under shariah, to bring a claim of rape, a Muslim woman must present four male
Muslim witnesses in good standing. Islam thus places the burden of avoiding illicit
sexual encounters entirely on the woman. In effect, under shariah, women
who bring a claim of rape without being able to produce the requisite four male
Muslim witnesses are admitting to having had illicit sex. If she or the man is married,
this amounts to an admission of adultery. The following Quranic passages,
while explicitly applying to men are cited by shariah authorities and judges in adjudicating
rape cases: "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four
witnesses (to adultery), flog them..." (Q 24:4) “Why did they not bring four witnesses
to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the
sight of Allah, stand forth themselves as liars!” (Q 24:13)
• A Muslim woman who divorces and remarries loses custody of children from a
prior marriage: “A woman has no right to custody of her child from a previous
marriage when she remarries because married life will occupy her with fulfilling
the rights of her husband and prevent her from tending the child.” (‘Umdat al-
Salik, m13.4)
7. ‘Honor’ Killing (aka Muslim family executions): A Muslim parent faces no legal
penalty under Islamic law for killing his child or grandchild: “…not subject to retaliation”
is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring,
or offspring’s offspring.” (‘Umdat al-Salik, 01.1-2)
8. Hudud Punishments: The plural of hadd, is “a fixed penalty prescribed as a right of
Allah. Because hudud penalties belong to Allah, Islamic law does not permit them to
be waived or commuted.”69
30
• “Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if
you believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of believers witness their
punishment.” (Qur’an 24:2)
• “On that account, We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a
[Muslim] person—unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the
land—it would be as if he slew the whole people….The punishment of those
who wage war against Allah and his apostle, and strive with might and main for
mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands
and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land…” (Q 32-33)
• § p0.0. From the Kitab al-kaba’ir (Book of Enormities) of Imam Dhahabi, who
defines an enormity as any sin entailing either a threat of punishment in the hereafter
explicitly mentioned by the Koran or hadith, a prescribed legal penalty
(Hadd), or being accursed by Allah or His messenger (Allah bless him & give
him peace). (‘Umdat al-Salik, Book P “Enormities,” at § p0.0)
• “Shariah stipulates these punishments and methods of execution such as amputation,
crucifixion, flogging, and stoning, for offenses such as adultery, homosexuality,
killing without right, theft, and ‘spreading mischief in the land’ because
these punishments were mandated by the Qur’an or Sunnah.” (Islamic Hudood
Laws in Pakistan, Edn 1996, 5.)
9. Islamic Supremacism: belief that Islam is superior to every other culture, faith,
government, and society and that it is ordained by Allah to conquer and dominate
them: “And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted
from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.” (Q 3:85):
• “Ye are the best of Peoples, evolved for mankind.” (Q 3:110)
• Non-Muslims are “the most vile of created beings” (Q 98:6)
• Be “merciful to one another, but ruthless to the unbelievers” (Q 48:29)
• “It is the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on
all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet.” (Hassan al-Banna, founder
of the Muslim Brotherhood)
• “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant.
The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted
religion on Earth.” (Omar Ahmad, Council on American Islamic Relations
co-founder/Board Chairman, 1998)
10. Jew Hatred: Antisemitism is intrinsic to shariah and is based on the genocidal behavior
of Mohammed himself in wiping out the entire Jewish population of the Arabian
Peninsula.
• “And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the
Sabbath, as we said to them: Be as apes, despised and hated.” (Q 2:65)
31
• “And you will most certainly find them [the Jews] the greediest of men for life,
greedier than even those who are polytheists…” (Q 2:96)
• “O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; for
they are friends but of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a
friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.”
(Q 5:51)
• “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden
which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle, nor acknowledge the religion
of truth, even if they be of the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], until
they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” (Q
9:29)
11. Jihad: Jihad is warfare to spread Islam:
• “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer
them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war…” (Q 9:5)
• “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, not hold that forbidden
by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from
among the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission
and feel themselves subdued.” (Q 9:29)
• “So fight them until there is no more fitna and all submit to the religion of Allah
alone.” (Q 8:39)
• “I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god
but Allah and that Mohammed is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the
prayer, and pay the zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions
from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning
is with Allah” (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim – agreed upon – as cited in
‘Umdat al-Salik o9.1 Jihad)
• “Jihad means to wage war against non-Muslims and is etymologically derived
from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.” (‘Umdat
al-Salik, o9.0, Jihad)
• “Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or
incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so
that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world....But those who
study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole
world….Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against
war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as
they would kill you all!
• “Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the
unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword
and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims]
overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill
32
you! Does this mean that we should surrender [to the enemy]? Islam says:
Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the
sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is
the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are
hundreds of other [Qur'anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging
Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion
that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make
such a claim.” (Ayatollah Khomeini as quoted by Amir Taheri.70)
12. Lying/Taqiyya: It is permissible for a Muslim to lie, especially to non-Muslims, to
safeguard himself personally or to protect Islam.
• “Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and
whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unless you indeed
fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is
the final return.” (Q 3:28)
• “‘Unless you indeed fear a danger from them’ meaning, except those believers who
in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case,
such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but
never inwardly.…‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse
them.’” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Vol 2, 141)
• “Mohammed said, ‘War is deceit.’” (Bukhari vol.4:267 and 269)
• “He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or
saying good things, is not a liar.” (Bukhari vol.3:857 p.533)
13. Slander/Blasphemy: In shariah, slander means anything that might offend a Muslim:
“… The reality of tale-bearing lies in divulging a secret, in revealing something
confidential whose disclosure is resented. A person should not speak of anything he
notices about people besides that which benefits a Muslim to relate or prevent disobedience.”
(‘Umdat al-Salik, r3.1)
14. Underage Marriage: Islamic doctrine permits the marriage of pre-pubescent girls.
There is no minimum age for a marriage contract and consummation may take place
when the girl is age eight or nine.
• “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses [periods],
for them the 'Iddah [prescribed period before divorce is final], if you have
doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses
[(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months
likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they
are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until
they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to
Him, He will make his matter easy for him.” (Q 65:4)
33
• “Aisha narrated: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he
consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained
with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).” (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 7, Book 62,
Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)“They may not have menstruated as
yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in
the case of some women, or because of no discharge at all throughout life which,
though rare, may also be the case. In any case, the waiting-period of such a
woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is,
three months from the time divorce was pronounced.
• “Here, one should bear in mind the fact that, according to the explanations given
in the Qur'an, the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women
with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waitingperiod
in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-
Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have
not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away
the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage
with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the
Qur’an has held as permissible.” (Syed Abu-Ala’ Maududi, Towards Understanding
the Qur’an, volume 5, p. 620, note 13)
15. Zakat: the obligation for Muslims to pay zakat arises out of Qur’an Verse 9:60 and
is one of the Five Pillars of Islam. Zakat may be given only to Muslims, never to non-
Muslims.
• Zakat is for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the
(funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for
those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer: (thus is
it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom. (Q 9:60) “Of
their goods take alms so that thou mightiest purify and sanctify them....” (Q
9:103) “Zakat is obligatory: (a) for every free Muslim and (b) who has possessed
a zakat-payable amount [the minimum that necessitates zakat] (‘Umdat
al-Salik, h1.1)
• According to shariah, there are eight categories of recipients for Zakat: The
poor; Those short of money; Zakat workers (those whose job it is to collect the
zakat); Those whose hearts are to be reconciled; Those purchasing their freedom;
Those in debt; Those fighting for Allah (Jihad); Travelers needing money
(‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.7-h8.18)
• “It is not permissible to give Zakat to a non-Muslim…” (‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.24)

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Seaver

I'm trying to understand your post. Are you suggesting these quotes have any possibility of being enacted here? If so I could easily point to the MUCH more powerful Christian Conservative political power, and then list off any of hundreds of laws under Leviticus which are completely ignored by all modern Christians.

Have a blended thread shirt? Death
Ever disregard a parent's command? Death
Ever eat lobster/crab/shrimp? Death
Ever eat pork? Death
Ever work a job on Sunday? Death
Ever mow your lawn on Sunday? Death

I could go on...

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

filtherton

I guarantee that all of the horrendous acts that have been carried out in the name of a particular religious philosophy have been either matched or surpassed in their reprehensibility by the acts of people claiming "this is the only way to keep ourselves safe".

Baraka_Guru

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dlish

i'd like to clarify that i only skimmed through the usual points that are produced when it comes to shariah. I dont really have the time right now to respond to all of these points since im at work, but many of the points are factually incorrect, inaccurate, misleading or out of context.

to name a few, genital mutilation, marital rape, associations sheikhs to islamic groups, hadd punishments, zakat, bringing islamic law into the 20th century etc....i could go on, but all of these are inaccurate represntations of applied islamic law. the post shows the rigidity of shariah but fails to show any flexibility.it's aloso quite easy to open up any religious text and pull out an excerpt which makes the other look like a monster. it really is.

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Shadowex3

So in other words you're claiming No True Scottsman on the scale of nearly an entire religion?

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dlish

no, what im saying is a lot of what was in the article is not true or misleading, which isnt surprising. And those are only the bits i read.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Slims

First, I would like to state that the thread is asking for opinions on Sharia, and I posted a quote which I generally agree with. I think Sharia as it is written in the Koran is still alive and well, despite attempts to say "That was a long time ago...." For instance, see Saudi Arabia, many gulf states, Iran, and the Sharia practicing parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan for examples of this institution still in existance, excepted by the local people, and it's punishments carried out (cutting off hands for thievery, execution for adultery, 'reasonable' things like that). For the expansion of Sharia see Great Britain the the Sharia courts established for muslims....IMHO this provides for 2 standards of justice within one nation: One for Non Muslims, the other for Muslims.

I am not suggesting Sharia is going to be enacted here, at least not for a while. I think it is a good possibility somewhere down the line though as Islam is simply a more competitive religion than Christianity and will likely continue to spread rapidly. I do understand why many consider it to be such a threat because at face value Sharia cannot exist along side the constitution (dual standards, etc), other religions (if they are weaker than the muslims), or any political system other than Islam.

In the Bible the New Testament is relatively peaceful and supplants the Old Testament and the Book of Leviticus. In the Koran the more peaceful books (from when Mohammad was still leading a relatively week 'cult') are supplanted by the more recent and warlike books (where Mohammad is now strong and warring). Also, the central figure in the christianity is not sleeping with 9 year old girls, cutting the heads off non believers or advocating the destruction of all other religions....He is teaching to turn the other cheek, and to live in peace.

I am sure there are factual mistakes in the quoted passage I included in my previous post. I would genuinely appreciate someone who is able to point out where I am going wrong, and where I am correct. I have my personal experiences, what I have been taught, the news, and discussions with practicing muslims to draw from, but my world view is limited to what I know.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence