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dlish · 06-18-2010, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

This is from The Holy Quran, tr. by Yusuf Ali, [1934], at sacred-texts.com, this is the version you suggested I read, I always try to read the closest to origin before I read later versions as they are less likely to be translated on modern view, though I am glad to see that some of the verse has been updated to a more modern thought, it still exists within the text, the veil, covering oneself to “prove” virtuous faith, even chap. 33, verse 55 states who it is o.k. to appear unveiled before though it does not use the term veil. The reality is that fundamental Islam is as alive and well within the Muslim populace as to is the fundamental Jews and the fundamental Christians. The veil is in the Qur'an, and as such can be used by extremist as a weapon of oppression, recognizing this is the first step to freeing the women who are subjugated within this doctrine. I am not speaking specifically of you dlish, nor your interpretation of the Qur'an (which appears to be more modern and giving to personal freedoms within your beliefs), just the reality of what is out their for the tyrannical extremist to use and what needs to be exposed to all Muslims who wish for personal freedoms outside of what doctrines these extremist use to manipulate and control.

Pickthall Translation:

Chapter 24, verse 31, followed by Chapter 33, verses 55-59:

From what I understand Pickthall is an older translations then Yusaf Ali and the two joined together to work on the Ali version, I have to say, from just this little reading, I like the Pickthall before Ali better, but I will have to read more before I make a definitive decision because as I read it again it comes across as though it is defining who the wives should "converse freely" with? Interesting and at times beautiful words, religion really gets me going, can you tell?

As for your other comment, Mary of Magdalene was said to be a prostitute who washed Jesus' feet with her hair, she was forgiven and became a great follower of Jesus, though I believe she became more. I have no problem believing that a porn star can have a valid and enriching relationship with God, she has that right, and I have not the right to deny her of it just because of what she does, do you, can anyone of us decide for another what is in their heart based on their sexual proclivities? Judgment is left for God in my eyes, not me..... I can demand, and within a secular society, fight to insure that those who kill or steal or lie (big lies, mind you, like insider trading lies), will be removed from society and placed away from hurting anyone else, but after that, personal judgments are just that, personal, imho. Human nature and social science should have little to do with personal faith, or God, in a secular society, again imho. Religious devotion is that which is between a person of faith and their God, period, imho. Who am I to judge that relationship, but I will sit on a jury and after hearing the pros and cons, judge the actions that result from ones faith, especially when a religious person uses that faith as an excuse for bad behavior or if they are found to be forcible and against my will, attempting to alter my faith or my relationship with my God, or attempting to deny me that personal right. Sometimes I wonder if this is what many Muslims believe American people are trying to accomplish. Do many Muslims you know or are around feel that Americans are trying to alter their perceptions of faith? Do Muslims feel threatened by Christianity?

p.s. Every religion that subjugates women owns this sentiment.

I have said over and over again how many religions and ideologies that subjugate women as possessions and place them within the confines of doctrine have lead to many religious men believing that women who do not live the life as doctrine deems virtuous are open to judgment by those who do and that those men will have a tendency to view these women as “asking for it”, this mentality is found all over in the teaching of oppressive doctrine in both the Old and New Testament (see 1 Corinthians 11) and the Qur’an (I will need to read other books to move farther than these three books). Don’t twist my words to fulfill the hate I am sure you have felt from others for I have felt it too, I have already stated I am not a hatemonger, the only thing I hate is tyranny, is terrorist, is people who use “omnipotent” doctrine as a controlling weapon over a populace unable to defend themselves and stuck within the words of their own faith, Christianity is a major player in this realm, why do you think I study religion myself if for nothing else than to expose my own need to remove that potential of oppression over me. If you are done with this thread, I appreciate you perspective and I have enjoyed our conversation, but I am not stepping on your toes, I am merely stepping, in a direction away from fear and toward education and personal religious freedom and the faith to live within my world as an equal and all that is inherent with said equality.

idyllic,

just to clarify a few things, when you speak of versions of the quran, you need to remember, there is only one version, which is the arabic version. anything other than arabic is cosidered a translation.

Marmaduke Pickthall was the son of a pastor or reverend who converted to islam. he was born in the late 1800, as was Yusuf Ali. both became respected authorities in translating the quran and endorsed by the al azhar university in egypt. i have never heard that pickthall helped yusuf ali with his translation. maybe he did, but thats really besides the point.

as for the verses being updated to modern thought, again, the verses remain unchanged. its the translations that differ.

i do agree with you that there are fundamentalists in all religions as wella s all walks of life. there are fundamentalist athiests, fundamentalist communists, fundamentalists [insert group here].

i have nothing to gain from this thread, so i have no need to twist your words. im merely answering whatever queries you have. i hold no hate for anyone who asks. i am no scholar, im merely filling a void here.

what i do want to say is that muslims are not afraid of christianity. in fact i see it the other way around. you can ask any muslim about chrsitianity and they know the basics at the very least. i myself spent many years studying comparitive religion. you'll find that you can ask the general christian about islam, and you're bound to get blank stares. what i do find amusing is that you used america and christianity synonymously. but to answer frankly, muslims are not afraid of christianity's influence. what is a threat in the world (which isnt only a thread to islam) is commercialism and not a theological threat. from my travels around the middle east, ive found that western commercial influence is a far greater danger than any threat. some of those influences are a good thing, other may not be, but many can cause turmoil and havoc if introduced into a society that is not ready to accept them.

ive read mary magdalenes story, she may or may not have been a prostitute, but she's still worthy of forgiveness for whatever sins she may have committed. i cannot judge a pornstar by banishing them to heaven or hell. thats not my job, but if i see a pornstar with a cross on her chest, im barely going to think that she's a mighty servant of god since she's not adhering to the basic principles of her faith. its pretty simple.

as far as men using religious doctrine to control women, well thats about everywhere else in the world. men use power to control women, they also use money to control women. religion is just another add on to that, and its not confined to religion alone.

id like to just mention that i do have a lot of muslim 'fundamentalist' friends as you'd like to call them. they arent all as bad as you think. these people have a strong adherence to their faith and are resigned to practicing it. i see nothing wrong with that. they all have jobs, families and hobbies outside of their religious practice as well as live modern lives. my opinion is that you should get to know a few muslims to understand their culture, behaviour, practices etc. you'll find that they all dont live in the dark ages and they live similar lives to you and i. try it, you might surprise yourself.