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Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlish
so im not even sure where you got that translation from. by the looks of it, but from reading that it seems to be either be a a literal fundamentalist translation, or a non muslim translation.
the thing is, your translating from arabic to english, and then adding to its text. so really anything in brackets is not found in any quran, but rather someones opinion. so youve got 3wo possibel errors with this translation..the error in the translation, the addition in text and the possible error within that context. it looks like theres more in brackets than isnt!
also, you're trying to tell me that islam promotes rape or even slightly promotes it, then theres no use having this conversation.
and yes i still stand by my comment, according to islamic moral code, which sets guidelines for dress and morality, if you're wearing a bikini in the street, how is that not exceeding those limits set.
people judge on what is apparent and what they see, and if i see a women walking around in a thong, i'm not going to assume she's going to church straight after. It's like seeing a pornstar with a cross around her neck, but she's still a believer right?
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Quote:
31. Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinna aw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna aw abna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisa-i wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona
31. And say to the believing women
That they should lower
Their gaze and guard
Their modesty; that they
Should not display their
Beauty and ornaments except
What (must ordinarily) appear
Thereof; that they should
Draw their veils over
Their bosoms and not display
Their beauty except
To their husbands, their fathers,
Their husbands’ fathers, their sons,
Their husbands’ sons,
Their brothers or their brothers’ sons,
Or their sisters’ sons,
Or their women, or the slaves
Whom their right hands
Possess, or male servants
Free of physical needs,
Or small children who
Have no sense of the shame
Of sex; and that they
Should not strike their feet
In order to draw attention
To their hidden ornaments.
And O ye Believers!
Turn ye all together
Towards God, that ye
May attain Bliss.
Sūra XXXIII.: Aḥzāb, or The Confederates.
Section 8
59. Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu qul li-azwajika wabanatika wanisa-i almu/mineena yudneena AAalayhinna min jalabeebihinna thalika adna an yuAArafna fala yu/thayna wakana Allahu ghafooran raheeman
59. O Prophet! Tell
Thy wives and daughters,
And the believing women,
That they should cast
Their outer garments over
Their persons (when abroad):
That is most convenient,
That they should be known
(As such) and not molested.
And God is Oft-Forgiving,
Most Merciful.
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This is from The Holy Quran, tr. by Yusuf Ali, [1934], at sacred-texts.com, this is the version you suggested I read, I always try to read the closest to origin before I read later versions as they are less likely to be translated on modern view, though I am glad to see that some of the verse has been updated to a more modern thought, it still exists within the text, the veil, covering oneself to “prove” virtuous faith, even chap. 33, verse 55 states who it is o.k. to appear unveiled before though it does not use the term veil. The reality is that fundamental Islam is as alive and well within the Muslim populace as to is the fundamental Jews and the fundamental Christians. The veil is in the Qur'an, and as such can be used by extremist as a weapon of oppression, recognizing this is the first step to freeing the women who are subjugated within this doctrine. I am not speaking specifically of you dlish, nor your interpretation of the Qur'an (which appears to be more modern and giving to personal freedoms within your beliefs), just the reality of what is out their for the tyrannical extremist to use and what needs to be exposed to all Muslims who wish for personal freedoms outside of what doctrines these extremist use to manipulate and control.
Pickthall Translation:
Chapter 24, verse 31, followed by Chapter 33, verses 55-59:
Quote:
(The Light) The Twenty-Fourth Surah of the Qur'aan
Pickthall Translation
31. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.
(The Confederates) The Thirty-Third Surah of the Qur'aan
Pickthall Translation
55. It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves. O women! Keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is ever Witness over all things.
56. Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.
57. Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained.
58. And those who malign believing men and believing women undeservedly, they bear the guilt of slander and manifest sin.
59. O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
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From what I understand Pickthall is an older translations then Yusaf Ali and the two joined together to work on the Ali version, I have to say, from just this little reading, I like the Pickthall before Ali better, but I will have to read more before I make a definitive decision because as I read it again it comes across as though it is defining who the wives should "converse freely" with? Interesting and at times beautiful words, religion really gets me going, can you tell?
As for your other comment, Mary of Magdalene was said to be a prostitute who washed Jesus' feet with her hair, she was forgiven and became a great follower of Jesus, though I believe she became more. I have no problem believing that a porn star can have a valid and enriching relationship with God, she has that right, and I have not the right to deny her of it just because of what she does, do you, can anyone of us decide for another what is in their heart based on their sexual proclivities? Judgment is left for God in my eyes, not me..... I can demand, and within a secular society, fight to insure that those who kill or steal or lie (big lies, mind you, like insider trading lies), will be removed from society and placed away from hurting anyone else, but after that, personal judgments are just that, personal, imho. Human nature and social science should have little to do with personal faith, or God, in a secular society, again imho. Religious devotion is that which is between a person of faith and their God, period, imho. Who am I to judge that relationship, but I will sit on a jury and after hearing the pros and cons, judge the actions that result from ones faith, especially when a religious person uses that faith as an excuse for bad behavior or if they are found to be forcible and against my will, attempting to alter my faith or my relationship with my God, or attempting to deny me that personal right. Sometimes I wonder if this is what many Muslims believe American people are trying to accomplish. Do many Muslims you know or are around feel that Americans are trying to alter their perceptions of faith? Do Muslims feel threatened by Christianity?
p.s. Every religion that subjugates women owns this sentiment.
Quote:
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Modesty should be a personal choice but one that does not find definition or necessity of adherence for proof of anything in religious doctrines or rape will linger in religious societies as less than the crime against humanity that it is. In truly secular societies, no means no, period, even if a woman is stripping naked while swinging on a pole, who are we to judge their morality, go ahead, throw that stone (glass houses shatter easily). Sometimes I simply believe that religious doctrine (ALL confining religious doctrine) sucks the ability for humanity to progress within the “science of evolution” as humankinds’ most valuable cohesive element.
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I have said over and over again how many religions and ideologies that subjugate women as possessions and place them within the confines of doctrine have lead to many religious men believing that women who do not live the life as doctrine deems virtuous are open to judgment by those who do and that those men will have a tendency to view these women as “asking for it”, this mentality is found all over in the teaching of oppressive doctrine in both the Old and New Testament (see 1 Corinthians 11) and the Qur’an (I will need to read other books to move farther than these three books). Don’t twist my words to fulfill the hate I am sure you have felt from others for I have felt it too, I have already stated I am not a hatemonger, the only thing I hate is tyranny, is terrorist, is people who use “omnipotent” doctrine as a controlling weapon over a populace unable to defend themselves and stuck within the words of their own faith, Christianity is a major player in this realm, why do you think I study religion myself if for nothing else than to expose my own need to remove that potential of oppression over me. If you are done with this thread, I appreciate you perspective and I have enjoyed our conversation, but I am not stepping on your toes, I am merely stepping, in a direction away from fear and toward education and personal religious freedom and the faith to live within my world as an equal and all that is inherent with said equality.
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you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does
p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes. 
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