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Old 06-02-2010, 11:29 AM   #81 (permalink)
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why is the hamas not looked upon as the aggressor here, as the tyrannical dictatorship over the Palestinian people,
Because they won a number of closely monitored elections after Fatah's corruption and thefts became too egregious for anyone to ignore, even by the standards of the Middle East. Some say these results are doubtful because of the Hamas/Fatah violence surrounding the elections, but the fact remains that Hamas won and, as far as anyone's been able to determine, did so legitimately. The Israeli blockade and bombardment of Gaza came about because the Palestinians, at the urging of the US and Israel, held an election which didn't go the way Israel wanted.

ZCommunications | Why Hamas Won by Kristen Ess | ZNet Article

From Wikipedia: Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In the Palestinian legislative election of 2006, Hamas gained the majority of seats in the first fair and democratic elections held in Palestine,[70] defeating the ruling Fatah party. Many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance"[71]"

"In May 2006, after the US and other governments imposed sanctions on the Palestinian territories for voting for Hamas, Hassan al-Safi, a senior Hamas official in the Gaza Strip, threatened a new intifada against those US-led international forces.[79]"
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:42 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hiredgun View Post
Ace - though I think the question is usually a red herring, my answer is yes, Israel has a right to exist.

But I have to disagree in the strongest terms with your gut feeling about the amenability of Palestinians to compromise.

Exhibit A is the excellent work of OneVoice, an Israeli/Palestinian/International organization that aims to dispel myths on both sides that the other side's population is 'not a partner for peace'.

OneVoice has conducted extensive grassroots work and hammered out a set of proposals (starting from the Clinton Parameters of 2000) that have 74% support among Palestinians and 78% support among Israelis. This is not just a simple "do you support a two-state solution?" poll, but a concrete set of ideas about what should happen with respect to Jerusalem, refugees, borders, etc. There are a lot of thorny issues, but the idea that there is no plausible middle ground acceptable to both populations is patently false.

OneVoice - Programs: Public Polling Results


Exhibit B is the current prime minister, Salam Fayyad.

Op-Ed Columnist - Fayyad's Road to Palestine - NYTimes.com



Unknown to most casual observers, there is a quiet revolution going on in the West Bank right now. GDP growth is in double-digits and there is a real chance - maybe the last chance - to transform the West Bank into a viable economic entity. But the life-shattering blockade of Gaza poses a long-term threat both to Israeli security and to the future of a Palestinian state - this aside from the sheer human cost.
Thanks, I appreciate the information in your post. It gives me some hope, but I am concerned about the cavalier attitude regarding the question by some. When national and religious leaders say they want to wipe Israel off of the face of the earth - I take that seriously. I have a fundamental problem with that attitude regardless of who is involved.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:42 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Silent_Jay,

I believe she means in the overall picture, not just this event. Meaning, (and I am assuming here), "Why is Israel looked at as the oppressor of the Palestinian people and Hamas is not?"

Idyllic,

To answer that, and it's only my opinion, Hamas was elected by their people with full knowledge of what they wanted. So, any consequence directly associated with how Hamas is ruling the Palestinian people is by choice. Much the way anything our Presidents do is, to some extent, the will of the people. <- that's another debate.
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Last edited by Cimarron29414; 06-02-2010 at 11:47 AM..
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:47 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 View Post
Silent_Jay,

I believe she means in the overall picture, not just this event. Meaning, (and I am assuming here), "Why is Israel looked at the oppressor of the Palestinian people and Hamas is not?"
I believe you're right Cimarron, I think that's what she meant as wel lafter re-reading it, have to put on my mind readers hat sometimes with some of these posts haha.

I put a small edit to my post, but you and Dunedan answered it, they won elections, and when they won people didn't like the results and we ended up here.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:48 AM   #85 (permalink)
 
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what the dunedan said above.

and like i keep saying, the israeli siege (that's what it is really) was begun out of a misguided attempt to prevent hamas from governing. the idea was based on nothing, really...it's not as though israel's attempts to pulverize the plo/fatah prevented it from operating. it's internal corruption was another matter---but under sharon, this approach had already been tried. and it failed. so why israel chose to respond this way to the gaza elections can only be chocked up to stupidity. stupidity backed by the bush administration because stupidity looped through the discourse of "terrorism"...

but not only has it reinforced support for hamas---it has also **prevented** the organization from moderating.

the counter-argument to the siege from the start was: if you want hamas to moderate, let them exercise power. the example of lebanon was clear.

bad policy, bad strategy, bad choices.
the israeli massacre in gaza simply made conditions worst. it did not break hamas. it had the opposite effect.

what i personally think has happened since is that the goldstone commission and other pressures---combined with the really unfortunate netanyahu government fell---have combined to make it difficult for israel to abandon the siege without losing face. so they've chosen to maintain it. which is at the root of all this business. not hamas. not really. a bad policy choice by the israelis that they are unlikely to be able to get away from until the right is bounced out of power again.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:51 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Idyllic View Post
I am not talking about the Palestinians, I am talking about the hooded terrorist affiliated hamas that tyrannize the Palestinians too. If the Palestinians, the Gazans, could exile the terror linked hamas, and I wish they could and would, I think this is what Israel wants also, as do I believe many of the Palestinians that are being demoralized at the hands of hamas and the additional terrorists who will be coming to assist the hamas in their chaos and disorder which is what the embargo is attempting to prevent [...]
Here is some food for thought regarding Hamas, Palestinians, and the flotilla.

Quote:
[...]

In the last two years under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinians have turned increasingly to non-violence. Although the leaders and shock troops of the breakaway faction of Hamas (an organization partly created by Israel) which rules the Gaza Strip do not support this, a majority of Palestinians appear to. Years of war and violent confrontation produced very little. Rather than driving Israel to agree to a reasonable division of the land of Palestine, it provoked fear among the Israeli population and fear, as it often does, supported a hard-line politics of suppression.

It is this history that has convinced many Palestinians to support non-violent action — of which the flotilla carrying much needed supplies to Gaza is but one manifestation. Organizers of non-violent action inside Palestine have organized boycotts of Israeli produce, besieged and isolated Jewish settlements and confronted and blocked Israeli military convoys with row upon row of protestors who sit peacefully and do not throw stones or brandish weapons as did their predecessors and as Gaza-based Hamas still does. All this has unsettled Israel, and the government has been relieved to be able to confront the rocket-firing and stone-throwing of Hamas cadres. Those tactics have secured the voters behind Israel's right-wing government while drowning out the impact of the non-violent protestors.

The Israelis and some American politicians are saying, with video evidence to prove it, that the Israeli commandos were attacked by militants wielding staves and knives. Just as Martin Luther King's non-violent brigades were infiltrated by militants, there are always fringe elements in most demonstrations of this kind who have other ideas. But on this ship they were both a tiny minority and only modestly violent. They didn't succeed in killing a single soldier and could have been restrained by means other than shooting them dead. The ship was 98 per cent peopled by non-violent activists, including women and children, parliamentarians and even a former American ambassador. Moreover, their cause was just, should have been acceptable and, as the British Conservative party foreign minister pointed out, was merely aiming to make a hole in an unacceptable embargo.

The world is mad at Israel, as the Security Council debate and resolution make clear. Even the U.S. went along with its unequivocal language.

The drama has a long way to play out. But in five years time we could well look back and see this was the moment when the world united to compel Israel to seriously compromise and allow the Palestinians to rule over a viable and sizeable state.

[...]
A success for non-violence in Gaza? - thestar.com
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:21 PM   #87 (permalink)
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On a recent holiday, we befriended a couple who were children of Palestinian refugees. It was refreshing, in a way, to hear "their side of the story". The one thing that I got out of it was that Palestinians truly want a one-state solution. A common government where all people have a right to vote equally, Jew and Muslim alike.

Obviously, this would be troublesome for the Jews because it's a numbers game. They would never want "enough" Muslims present to take over the government. So, the two state solution is...better?...for the Jews.

The other major sticking point is the right of return. This doesn't just mean turning settlements back over to the former Palestinian inhabitants. This means that anyone with a deed from, say, 1920 for a parcel of land which is now inhabited by a Jew gets their land back. All refugees return to the land and are given citizenship, their land back, and a vote. Again, it's a numbers game and the Jews will lose that numbers game. Hence, they will never agree to the right of return.

Finally, there's the non-contiguous "nation" of Palestine. As long as the Palestinians have to travel through Israel to get to the other side of their country, there will always be strife in terms of commerse, security, and such.

I don't know how they will ever overcome these hurdles.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:25 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I should say, I don't necessarily like or agree with any of this, I wish none of this were happening, but it is. I will not, however, tolerant terrorism, or tyranny and I just don't see Israel as the conductors of despair in this land, I see the hamas, al qaeda, hezbollah, taliban (insurgents), et al. as the main destruction of peace and tolerance in a land hurting for a voice that does not scream "Death to the Infidels" at the same time they bow to mecca.....It is tiring the reality of hate that fills the hearts and minds of the extremist xenophobic zealots, and I do not believe that all Muslim feel the way the extremists do, I believe the average Muslim is being tyrannized over too, by their own people, and it is sad and very painful to hear and view these atrocities.
Quote:
This is not a game of who did what first or last or whenever, this is the reality of a mentality within the terrorist sect that will not be resolved until the moderate Muslims stand up to the extremist and the fundamental religious zealots and remove from the Arab people the glorification and martyrdom of hate and persecution and destruction they are feed from infancy in spoonfuls of xenophobic teachings found within their own religion.

This is a symptom of a far greater disease and one that will spread if you turn your back on it and will kill you from behind because it can and is taught to, is taught to children to kill and maim and destroy, it is the very words they grow by, it is an extension of their basic beliefs in their religious superiority and it will not stop, these fundamental radicals will not stop until they unite all under Allah, this is all they know, and it's terribly, terribly sad to watch a people struggle this way to find their own voice within a global community that does not view violence in the way they do.

This is a sad thing to witness for everyone involved, we are watching the death of an ancient culture, one rooted in antiquity and tyranny, but the culture itself is so valid and loved, it is the hate that must dissipate, but to many fundamental Muslims, hate is all they know when they look outside their own religion merely because their fundamental religious teachers fill them xenophobic hate, that is all they know. Allah help the youth of your faith grow in tolerance, teach them universal peace so they may find it also, or they will turn against you just as the crusaders turned against the Jews and the Protestants turned against the Catholics and the etc. turned against the etc. the nature of the world as taught by intelligence demands an eventual end to violence, no parent wants to see their child suffer or die, no parent of a cohesive and tolerance loving world would strap a bomb on a child and use them to murder innocent people.. ?
sadly, the only hate im seeing in this thread is coming from you idyllic. i dont see the so called islamic link that you speak of, and its been proven that you get you dont know the full extent of the issues here, nor do you realise what sources you rely on. i ask you one question that i ask regularly here, that you need to answer truthfully (to yourself at least)... how many muslims do you really know where you have sat down at spoken to as just normal human beings who want nothing but a good future for them and their kids? my gut feeling tells me none.

To be truly honest, ill tell you what i think about your arguments - your arguments twist and turn in many different directions and its hard keeping a straight conversation about the flotilla, israel and palestine without you throwing red herrings into the argument about alqaeda, hamas and hezbollah (btw i still am waiting for those sources. please feel free to pass them on at your own leisure).

p.s. and just in case, since you use the word arab and muslim synonymously, i thought id throw this one in for you. christian arabs make up a sizable percentage of the arab world.

lebanon has around 45-50% chriatian population
phaestine ahs around 600,000 chrsitians living in either camps or
jordan has around 10% christian population
im not sure about egypt, but they have a strong coptic chritian following as does iraq in the form of assyrians


You know idyllic, many moons ago, there was a member here by the name of Host who didnt know when to stop a futile argument... he's no longer with us unfortunately. Thats not a threat, but he irked a lot of people. people who even agreed with his arguments, but not his delivery. just thought id give you that piece of advice. pro bono.

jazz, the israelis didnt have a right to respond in international waters. all they needed to do was wait until they reached israeli waters and prove the threat. PR crisis averted. the fact that it happened in international waters makes the israelis no better than those somali pirates in the horn of africa.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:39 PM   #89 (permalink)
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When thinking of Israel and Palestine, it is important to stop thinking about states and nations as unitary actors. A lot of what is going on is less about what is good for this or that state, but what is good for this or that party.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:45 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Lately when I think about Israel, I just think Joe Pesci in either Goodfellas or Casino.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:57 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Idyllic View Post
You mean like half of the Arab nations that are so entrenched in the Islamic faith, those kind of theocracies?
Yes. I, personally (meaning, this post and my previous posts are imho), believe that theocracies shouldn't exist. Governments should be secular and provide freedom of (and from) religion as a fundamental right. If people wish to worship someone or something, that should be their right, but the idea that an entire state is based on a faith and forces that faith (or even lack thereof) on people is a human rights violation by default.

A friend and I were once talking about nationalism and he brought up this interesting idea about the idea of national identity as it pertains to culture and/or religion. His point was that the problem for theocrats (or "ethnocenterists", as he called them) is that the territory encompassed by their theocracy is not the same as the territory where their religion is. Their religion is found outside of their country, and other religions are always going to be found inside of their country. When a country attempts to expunge any group—be they ethnic, religious, cultural, or otherwise—from their supposed haven, inevitably they'll only end up creating a disaster for human rights. Iran has run into this problem and Israel is battling with it right now. It's insane that Israel, which is kinda based on Western governments and culture, is also trying to go through an ethnic and religious cleansing. It makes me think if there were more Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks here, we might be doing the same thing.

Then I go have some tea and read a book.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:05 PM   #92 (permalink)
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More evidence of the evil Jew horde!

Israeli Terrorist Navy Addresses a Ship in the Flotilla and Offers it to Dock in the Ashdod Port



Peace Activists Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects for an impromptu celebration of Kristallnacht.



Evil IDF Transfers Humanitarian Aid From Gaza Flotilla to Gaza Strip



Footage of peaceful Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking the Kosher KKK



Yes, we clearly witness the righteous intent of the peace-loving non-terrorist IHH and Free-Gaza acting only in the best interest of peaceful Palestinians. They were right to refuse the deceitful offers of port access from both Egypt and Israel while expressing their explicit intent to cross the blockade. Brave peace activists, who by the way made time in advance to prepare wills and martyrdom videos, thought never to provoke the IDF.

Why won't the racist aggressor Jews just die?
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:24 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Brave peace activists, who by the way made time in advance to prepare wills and martyrdom videos, thought never to provoke the IDF.
Got to love outrageous statements with no back up, until I see proof of this I smell bullshit.
Quote:
Evil IDF Transfers Humanitarian Aid From Gaza Flotilla to Gaza Strip
Why wouldn't they deliver it? They need to do something right in this fiasco, and now they're trying t odo damage control and get a cunt hair of good PR.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:28 PM   #94 (permalink)
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The only people I talked of with great negativity were the terrorist linked sects (specifically those who use religion as a foundation for their tyranny), somehow this got turned into me hating people, how is that. I voiced my opinions about what I was reading and learning and understanding about the issues and it was turned into me spewing hate, I don't hate anything except the suffering of innocent people. I asked questions, I read and listened, I tried to explain my views as best I could, and still, my words are interpreted incorrectly, if ignorance is what you wish to project upon an educated person who wants to learn and debate and is truly hungry for understanding then how do you expect anyone to learn anything when you condescend them to a point where you remove their voice and instill in them a fear of speaking their opinions with threats of banishment, how do you expect anyone to learn, how do you expect any conversation, any debate, any forum.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:40 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Idyllic View Post
......with threats of banishment,
Read the words idyllic that dlish wrote:
Quote:
You know idyllic, many moons ago, there was a member here by the name of Host who didnt know when to stop a futile argument... he's no longer with us unfortunately. Thats not a threat...
I mean damn, see that's your main problem, you don't actually read what people type, you read what you think you see, or what you percieve to see in their posts.
Quote:
The only people I talked of with great negativity were the terrorist linked sects (specifically those who use religion as a foundation for their tyranny), somehow this got turned into me hating people, how is that.
Actually you called the people on this boat 'hate filled animals' and implied they were terrorists, even though you deny it, everyone can see it.
Quote:
I voiced my opinions about what I was reading and learning and understanding about the issues and it was turned into me spewing hate, I don't hate anything except the suffering of innocent people.
Yes you did voice your opinions, and others voiced their disagreement with those opinions, that is what happens during political discussions, but you also admitted you don't know enough about the 'Turkey connection', then continued on with the 'there were terrorists on the boat' all the while showing us no proof, even though it has been asked for repeatedly. This is a place where you have to back up your statements, say something outrageous, you'll be called on it.

I agree with dlish, the main issue with you is, your arguments twist and turn, you imply things, then say you weren't implying it and get upset when people read what your words say.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:43 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Idyllic View Post
The only people I talked of with great negativity were the terrorist linked sects (specifically those who use religion as a foundation for their tyranny), somehow this got turned into me hating people, how is that. I voiced my opinions about what I was reading and learning and understanding about the issues and it was turned into me spewing hate, I don't hate anything except the suffering of innocent people. I asked questions, I read and listened, I tried to explain my views as best I could, and still, my words are interpreted incorrectly, if ignorance is what you wish to project upon an educated person who wants to learn and debate and is truly hungry for understanding then how do you expect anyone to learn anything when you condescend them to a point where you remove their voice and instill in them a fear of speaking their opinions with threats of banishment, how do you expect anyone to learn, how do you expect any conversation, any debate, any forum.
Idyllic, this is the form of playing the "victim" card that was discussed in another thread. You presented your opinion, which was inflamatory and bias'd from the start. People called you on your unsupported claims, and you are now crying victim.

No one is victimizing you, you just made a claim with no evidence and was called on it.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:00 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Willravel View Post
Yes. I, personally (meaning, this post and my previous posts are imho), believe that theocracies shouldn't exist. Governments should be secular and provide freedom of (and from) religion as a fundamental right. If people wish to worship someone or something, that should be their right, but the idea that an entire state is based on a faith and forces that faith (or even lack thereof) on people is a human rights violation by default.

A friend and I were once talking about nationalism and he brought up this interesting idea about the idea of national identity as it pertains to culture and/or religion. His point was that the problem for theocrats (or "ethnocenterists", as he called them) is that the territory encompassed by their theocracy is not the same as the territory where their religion is. Their religion is found outside of their country, and other religions are always going to be found inside of their country. When a country attempts to expunge any group—be they ethnic, religious, cultural, or otherwise—from their supposed haven, inevitably they'll only end up creating a disaster for human rights. Iran has run into this problem and Israel is battling with it right now. It's insane that Israel, which is kinda based on Western governments and culture, is also trying to go through an ethnic and religious cleansing. It makes me think if there were more Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks here, we might be doing the same thing.

Then I go have some tea and read a book.
So what I think you are saying is that by trying to forcibly push hamas out it is in turn the creation of the problem and that if left to their own devises the people themselves would grow beyond the tyranny, I think I understand this and in such theory I would like to believe the reality of this. I don't know that I believe Israel is attempting an ethnic cleansing, however, if one considers hamas as an ethnic entity, then yes, I believe you could say they are, but I tend to see hamas (as well as other tyrannical regimes) more as a cancer and the risk of its growth being so disruptive as to destroy the body of Palestine (or wherever they thrive) and any citizens that get in its way.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:14 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by silent_jay View Post
Got to love outrageous statements with no back up, until I see proof of this I smell bullshit.

Why wouldn't they deliver it? They need to do something right in this fiasco, and now they're trying t odo damage control and get a cunt hair of good PR.
IDF commander, "OY VEY! we better "t odo" and get a cunt hair of good PR !(WTF?)... so lets schlep or be schmucks!"

More peace activism brought to by IHH and Free-Gaza!
Al-Jazeera TV Report from "Freedom Flotilla" Before Its Departure for Gaza: Activists on Board Chant Intifada Songs and Praise Martyrdom



Quote:
From MEMRI The Middle East Media Research Institute


Arab Media Reports on Flotilla Participants: Writing Wills, Preparing for Martyrdom, Determined to Reach Gaza or Die


Flotilla Participants

Following is information from the Arab media about some of the flotilla participants. It should be noted that many of these were from the Muslim Brotherhood across the Muslim world.

(For more on this subject, see also MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 2986, "MEMRI TV Clips on the Gaza Flotilla: Activists On Board Chant Songs of Martyrdom at Departure," MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute .)

Egypt

In Friday sermons, Muslim Brotherhood General Guide Muhammad Badi' expressed support for Hamas, frequently reiterating harsh statements in favor of jihad and of the armed struggle in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan (see MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute).

The Egyptian flotilla delegation included two members of the Muslim Brotherhood bloc in the Egyptian parliament: Muhammad Al-Baltaji and Hazem Farouq.

Al-Baltaji, who is deputy secretary-general of the Muslim Brotherhood parliamentary bloc in Egypt, said at a March 2010 conference, "A nation that excels at dying will be blessed by Allah with a life of dignity and with eternal paradise." He also said that his movement "will never recognize Israel and will never abandon the resistance," and that "resistance is the only road map that can save Jerusalem, restore the Arab honor, and prevent Palestine from becoming a second Andalusia.[1]


Muslim Brotherhood logo

Lebanon

The Lebanese flotilla delegation, with six members, was headed by attorney Dr. Hani Suleiman, who also participated in a February 2009 Gaza flotilla. He was pro-bono attorney to Japanese terrorist Kozo Okamoto.[2] In 2006, he signed a communiqué supporting armed resistance in Palestine, Lebanon, and Iraq.[3]

Three other members of the Lebanese delegation are Al-Jazeera TV correspondents.[4] One, 'Abbas Nasser, worked for Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV from 1997 through 2003; he has said that he enjoyed working there because he felt like part of a family, and because the channel "embraced his religious and political orientation." In 2003, he also worked for Iran's Al-'Alam TV.[5]

Another delegation member, Hussein Shaker, is known as "Abu Al-Shuhada" ("Father of the Martyrs"). He has reportedly expressed a desire to meet "his martyrs" (i.e. relatives killed during the 2006 Lebanon war), and has called his participation in the flotilla revenge for their deaths.[6]

Jordan

The Jordanian flotilla delegation included Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan activists such as delegation head Wael Al-Saka, a veteran Muslim Brotherhood member,[7] and Salam Al-Falahat, who was general guide of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan from 2006 to 2008.[8] In an interview last year, Al-Falahat said: "We in the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan see Palestine as part of the Islamic and Arab land that must not be relinquished – on the contrary, defending it is a national and jurisprudential obligation... We see Hamas movement in Palestine as standing at the head of the project of the Arab and Islamic liberation for which the Muslim Brotherhood calls... The Muslim Brotherhood supports Hamas and every Arab resistance movement in the region that works for liberation."[9]

Also in the delegation was Jordanian publicist and journalist Muhammad Abu Ghanima, a former head of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan's information bureau and a member of the movement's political bureau. Abu Ghanima writes frequent articles praising Hamas and condemning the Palestinian Authority. In one, he vehemently attacked Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, calling on the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt to topple his regime even at the cost of thousands of martyrs.[10]

Journalist Saud Salam Abu Mahfouz, member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan's political party, the Islamic Action Front, is also director-general of the Jordanian Al-Sabil newspaper, which is identified with the Muslim Brotherhood. His son, Jordanian correspondent for Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV, was arrested in Egypt in 2008.[11]

Syria

One of the four Syrian citizen among the flotilla's 700 participants was Shadha Barakat. She was sent as a representative of the Civil Association for Resisting Zionism and Aid for Palestine, which supports armed resistance in Palestine and in Iraq. Her husband Ayman said that she had written a play on assassinated Hamas founder and leader Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, and had told him that when she reaches Gaza she "plans to visit [Yassin's] home and inhale the scent of the place where he lived."[12]


Logo of the Civil Association for Resisting Zionism and Aid for Palestine

Yemen

Prominent activists in the Yemeni flotilla delegation were three MPs from the Al-Islah party, an Islamist party that is close to the Muslim Brotherhood. One, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hazmi, was photographed on the deck of the Mavi Marmara brandishing his large curved dagger.[13]


Yemenite Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hazmi

Another Yemeni MP in the flotilla, Hazza' Al-Maswari, also from the Al-Islah party, previously expressed vehement anti-American sentiment. In 2004, he objected to a Yemeni program for dialogue with prisoners from Al-Qaeda aimed at tempering their views, declaring recently at Friday prayers: "We cannot tell militants 'don't terrorize Americans' or 'don't attack their interests.' Those who plant hatred will harvest hatred."[14]


Depiction of flotilla on Yemeni website[15]

Kuwait

Among the prominent flotilla activists from Kuwait were Salafist MP Walid Al-Tabtabai, who is known to support armed resistance in Palestine and in Iraq. He said: "We think that the armed resistance in Iraq is legitimate resistance. Every resistance directed against anyone who occupies it is legitimate..."[16] Al-Tabtabai also expressed explicit support for Hamas and objected to the regime of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud 'Abbas.[17]

Another prominent Kuwaiti activist in the flotilla was Dr. Osama Al-Kandari, a Hadith lecturer at the College of Basic Education. In February 2009, he signed a communiqué expressing support for Hamas and for jihad in Palestine against the "Jewish enemies."[18]

Bahrain

Sheikh Jalal Al-Sharqi, head of the Association of Islamic Scholars in the GCC Countries, was also on board. Previously, Al-Sharqi signed a clerics' petition calling to acknowledge Hamas's legitimacy, as recognized by shari'a, and not to prevent it from obtaining weapons. The petition justified the stance of the "fighters in Gaza" who cling to jihad "against the Jews" and to martyrdom.[19]

Israeli Arabs

The Monitoring Committee of the Israeli Arabs sent four of its members to the flotilla, including Sheikh Raed Salah, head of the northern branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel. He made statements in support of Hamas and against the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority. Previously, Salah said at the Conference of the Palestinians in Europe: "We are very joyful over the Freedom Flotilla... that in another few days will break the siege on free Gaza, noble Gaza, heroic Gaza. At the same time, we emphasize to all the world that the Freedom Flotilla heralds another flotilla to come – do you know what that is? It is the flotilla returning the Palestinian refugees to our country, to our plains, to our sea and our land, to our fields and our groves."[20]

Bishop Hilarion Capucci

Another passenger on the Mavi Marmara was Bishop Hilarion Capucci, who in the 1970s was convicted and imprisoned in Israel for smuggling weapons from Lebanon to the PLO, but afterwards was freed at the request of the Vatican. According to Algerian flotilla participants, Hilarion said that he was "waiting for the day when he could return to Palestine and hear the church bells and the muezzins' calls of 'Allah Akbar,' under the skies of a free Palestine."[21]


Bishop Hilarion Capucci, left, with Algerian delegation head Dr. Abd Al-Razzaq Maqri

Anticipating Conflict, Willing to Die

In their statements, flotilla participants raised the possibility that Israel would use force to prevent the ship from reaching the Gaza coast, and declared that this would not stop them. Many noted that they would break the siege even if it cost them their lives.

Muhammad Al-Baltaji, of the Muslim Brotherhood faction in the Egyptian parliament, said: "The flotilla participants have two aims: to reach Gaza and break the siege, and to denounce Israel if it prevents the flotilla from entering Gaza, even at the cost of martyrdom or imprisonment."[22]

Algerian delegation head Dr. Abd Al Razzaq Maqri, who is the deputy head of the Algerian group Movement of Society for Peace, Algeria's major Islamist party, said, "The Algerians on board will hear only the orders of their leaders, who seek to break the siege. [The options are] martyrdom, imprisonment, or breaking [the siege]."[23]

The website of the group titled its collection of photos from the flotilla "Photos of Algerian Mujahideen."[24]


Photo of flotilla participants, under the title "Photos of Algerian Mujahideen"

Algerian delegation coordinator Ahmad Brahimi said about his delegation: "Algeria has been known for its support of the Palestinian cause since the days of Salah Al-Din Al-Ayyubi. Our fathers gave their blood and lives to defend Palestine... and we are the sons of those fathers." He added that the delegation's only purpose was to reach Gaza, and that Israel could not prevent it from doing so.[25]

Another participant, Attorney Fathi Nassar of Jordan, said: "The Freedom Flotilla members are filled with determination to reach Gaza or die."[26]

Rami Abdou, representative of the European Campaign to End the Siege on Gaza, said that most of the participants were willing to lay down their lives to reach Gaza. He stressed that they would not allow the occupation forces to tow the ship to Ashdod.[27]

Shadha Barakat's husband Ayman said that his wife was likely to be harmed during the venture, adding that "she will make no truce with Zionism" and that "since she was a child, she has dreamed of attacking an Israeli."[28]

Participants Write Their Wills

At a press conference in Antalya, Turkey, the flotilla organizers asked all the participants to "write their wills."[29] Following the press conference, Kuwaiti Salafist MP Walid Al-Tabtabai reportedly "did not hesitate to write his will, in defiance of the Israeli threats."[30]


Kuwaiti MP Walid Al-Tabtabai wrote his will before boarding the Mavi Marmara

The father of Kuwaiti activist Abd Al-Rahman Al-Filkawi told the Kuwaiti Al-Watan daily that his son had told him that the flotilla participants' morale was high, and that they "would sacrifice themselves for the sake of Allah. He added that his son had "told them before embarking that he would be a martyr for the sake of Allah."[31] The next day, the father told a press conference: "My son Abd Al-Rahman came to me and said: 'Reckon my sacrifice [of my life] in anticipation of the reward of Allah' and I did so. Then he went to his mother and she reckoned his sacrifice in anticipation of the reward of Allah. If he dies there [with the flotilla], he dies as a martyr [with the predetermined aim of becoming one]."[32]

Similarly, the son of Kuwaiti activist and attorney Mubarak Al-Mutawa said: "Since he was little, my father hoped to become a martyr for the sake of Allah."[33] Al-Mutawa's wife related that on the day of his departure, her husband had gathered their children together to tell them about martyrdom and jihad, and that he bade them farewell by saying: "If I am martyred during my voyage, do not be sad. I will be in Paradise, because I am going to wage jihad for the sake of Allah."[34]

Also, on the various Internet forums, it was reported that the mother of one of the Turkish participants had said that her son had bade her farewell and told her that he was going to lay down his life.
Perhaps leaving the herd once and a while and getting some fresh air will help with that odor problem!
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:21 PM   #99 (permalink)
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IDF commander, "OY VEY! we better "t odo" and get a cunt hair of good PR !(WTF?)... so lets schlep or be schmucks!"

More peace activism brought to by IHH and Free-Gaza!
Al-Jazeera TV Report from "Freedom Flotilla" Before Its Departure for Gaza: Activists on Board Chant Intifada Songs and Praise Martyrdom



Perhaps leaving the herd once and a while and getting some fresh air will help with that odor problem!
I've yet to see anything that justifies boarding a ship in international waters and shooting at unarmed civilians.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:26 PM   #100 (permalink)
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I've yet to see anything that justifies boarding a ship in international waters and shooting at unarmed civilians.
That's of no concern to people like otto, he never lets proof get in the way of a good story
Quote:
IDF commander, "OY VEY! we better "t odo" and get a cunt hair of good PR !(WTF?)... so lets schlep or be schmucks!"
Yes they delivered the aid for good PR, it's not a hard concept to grasp, well for some it may be I suppose.
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Perhaps leaving the herd once and a while and getting some fresh air will help with that odor problem!
Nope, it seems to originate from some things here.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:31 PM   #101 (permalink)
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I've yet to see anything that justifies boarding a ship in international waters and shooting at unarmed civilians.
... yes, unarmed civilians with flash grenades, tasers, knives, chains and steel pipes used to beat the commandos to a pulp as they repelled from their helicopters.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:35 PM   #102 (permalink)
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... yes, unarmed civilians with flash grenades, tasers, knives, chains and steel pipes used to beat the commandos to a pulp as they repelled from their helicopters.
So, they've gone from having metal pipes and knives, to metal pipes, bulletproof vests, NVG, and knives, now we're at flash grenades, tasers, knives, chains, NGV, bulletproof vests and steel pipes.

Jesus by tomorrow some here will be saying they had a nuke in their cargo hold, this just keeps getting more and more outrageous.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:36 PM   #103 (permalink)
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... yes, unarmed civilians with flash grenades, tasers, knives, chains and steel pipes used to beat the commandos to a pulp as they repelled from their helicopters.
Do you honestly not see the absurdity in this statement? People repelling from helicopters with guns to kill people in international waters(which is piracy by the way) who are armed with pipes and knives.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:23 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Do you honestly not see the absurdity in this statement?

People repelling from helicopters with guns to kill people in international waters(which is piracy by the way) who are armed with pipes and knives.
It's not absurd if you are aware of the facts. Simply read the article I quoted previously at the website (with pictures - that might help). The "peace activists" prepared in advance to engage with violence... and yes, they brought weapons.

The IDF boarded vessels that were given the opportunity to port in Egypt and Israel with offers to transport their humanitarian cargo to Gaza. The flotilla refused and demonstrated explicit intent to break the embargo and proceed to Gaza. The commandos boarded the vessels to verify contents and were armed with paintball guns as their primary deterrent. The commandos carried side-arms with orders not to use unless their lives were threatened. The passengers physically engaged the commandos first as they approached by sea and also swarmed the soldiers repelling to the decks. They beat the soldiers mercilessly with pipes and threw at least one off of the ship. The flotilla's intent was to provoke, and they were successful. The actions of the IDF are not unlike our coast guard boarding vessels with suspicious intent. The ship is contacted and informed that they will be boarded. If met with violence, they are obliged to defend themselves.

For many here, I know it comes to great shock and disappointment to imagine otherwise, but the IDF did not board the ship with the intent to commit a gun-blazing massacre.

The question of engaging the flotilla in international waters may be a problem for Israel. However, in researching the background of the primary flotilla organizers (IHH and Free-Gaza) you will find that they are in no way innocent humanitarian movements. IHH has a solidly documented history of terrorist activity and connections, "Free-Gaza" is a pro-Palestine/anti-Israel political scam.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:23 PM   #105 (permalink)
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I don't see how any of this brings about a conclusion that the ends justify the means.

Let's assume that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Let's assume that the flotilla passengers were armed with non-military weapons that didn't include firearms until the IDF boarded.
Let's assume that the flotilla intended to break the blockade.
Let's assume that there could have been stuff aboard that were restricted materials according to Israel.

None of that justifies Israel's actions, and certainly none of it justifies the outcome.

Israel fucked up. It fucked up for fear of materials on a flotilla that will likely end up in Gaza anyway. It fucked up and now people are dead.

I mean, I understand that they're running a blockade and shit---which, of course, is part and parcel of a good quality siege---and I understand that they're highly concerned with terrorist activities and their own self-defense....but seriously...I can't understand how anyone can justify Israel's handling of this particular situation.

Can we not at least admit that Israel screwed up?
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:54 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Piracy plain and simple
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:57 PM   #107 (permalink)
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So what I think you are saying is that by trying to forcibly push hamas out it is in turn the creation of the problem and that if left to their own devises the people themselves would grow beyond the tyranny, I think I understand this and in such theory I would like to believe the reality of this. I don't know that I believe Israel is attempting an ethnic cleansing, however, if one considers hamas as an ethnic entity, then yes, I believe you could say they are, but I tend to see hamas (as well as other tyrannical regimes) more as a cancer and the risk of its growth being so disruptive as to destroy the body of Palestine (or wherever they thrive) and any citizens that get in its way.
No, I was more talking about how all theocracies violate basic human rights. That includes Iran, that includes Hamas, and that includes the Jewish pseudo-theocracy Israel. You were asking about Israel's right to exist, and the very first thing that came to mind was, "Yeah it can exist as long as they drop their version of theocracy."
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:18 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
It's not absurd if you are aware of the facts. Simply read the article I quoted previously at the website (with pictures - that might help). The "peace activists" prepared in advance to engage with violence... and yes, they brought weapons.

The IDF boarded vessels that were given the opportunity to port in Egypt and Israel with offers to transport their humanitarian cargo to Gaza. The flotilla refused and demonstrated explicit intent to break the embargo and proceed to Gaza. The commandos boarded the vessels to verify contents and were armed with paintball guns as their primary deterrent. The commandos carried side-arms with orders not to use unless their lives were threatened. The passengers physically engaged the commandos first as they approached by sea and also swarmed the soldiers repelling to the decks. They beat the soldiers mercilessly with pipes and threw at least one off of the ship. The flotilla's intent was to provoke, and they were successful. The actions of the IDF are not unlike our coast guard boarding vessels with suspicious intent. The ship is contacted and informed that they will be boarded. If met with violence, they are obliged to defend themselves.

For many here, I know it comes to great shock and disappointment to imagine otherwise, but the IDF did not board the ship with the intent to commit a gun-blazing massacre.

The question of engaging the flotilla in international waters may be a problem for Israel. However, in researching the background of the primary flotilla organizers (IHH and Free-Gaza) you will find that they are in no way innocent humanitarian movements. IHH has a solidly documented history of terrorist activity and connections, "Free-Gaza" is a pro-Palestine/anti-Israel political scam.
Quit wasting your breath. The world recognizes that Israel was set up on this one, and for whatever reason, the posters in this thread support an organization that has sworn to eradicate Israel. You'll get them to listen when Hamas professes undying love for Israel, not before.
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:45 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Quit wasting your breath. The world recognizes that Israel was set up on this one, and for whatever reason, the posters in this thread support an organization that has sworn to eradicate Israel. You'll get them to listen when Hamas professes undying love for Israel, not before.
Really the world does? You must have a lot of air miles from all that travelling. More of those outrageous statements with no proof that are becoming so common here from some posters, damn I'm really starting to miss Ustwo more and more, at least he could prove most of what he said.

Last I checked I didn't support any organization that has sworn to eradicate Israel, but then I doubt any of the posters in this thread does, but don't let facts get in the way of your story.

Sure is starting to smell like bullshit in here again.....

I really shouldn't feed your kind, but what the hell, got to have something to do, and it's always funny to see what colour the sky is in other people's world.

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Old 06-03-2010, 12:02 AM   #110 (permalink)
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... yes, unarmed civilians with flash grenades, tasers, knives, chains and steel pipes used to beat the commandos to a pulp as they repelled from their helicopters.
Knives, chains and steel pipes?

That is a veritable invading force! Every nation would tremble in front of such power!

Luckily, Israel bans those weapons, as well as all those other things that are clearly meant to be used for weapons, like notebooks, pens, a4 paper and fishing rods from going into gaza...

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Old 06-03-2010, 12:42 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Knives, chains and steel pipes?

That is a veritable invading force! Every nation would tremble in front of such power!

Luckily, Israel bans those weapons, as well as all those other things that are clearly meant to be used for weapons, like notebooks, pens, a4 paper and fishing rods from going into gaza...

The critical point that is conveniently overlooked in this thread is that if the IDF was allowed to board and inspect the ship without being attacked, none of the "peace activists" would be dead or injured as a result.

This thread reminds me of the Census Worker thread... a poorly informed herd-mentality lynch-mob where the so-called victim turns out to be the perpetrator. In this case the villainous right-wing tea-bagger stereotype is replaced by Israel. Your prejudice is a cliché.
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Old 06-03-2010, 02:35 AM   #112 (permalink)
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The critical point that is conveniently overlooked in this thread is that if the IDF was allowed to board and inspect the ship without being attacked, none of the "peace activists" would be dead or injured as a result.
Do you really think this point is lost on anyone here? Why don't you step of your high horse and spend some time reading what people have been writing and see if you can figure out why people are really being critical of the IDF and Israel here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I were on a flotilla in international waters and commandos boarded from a country which has shown itself all to willing to commit and successfully cover up acts characterized by independent investigatory bodies as war crimes, I might be inclined to fight back too. Even if I knew that it would ultimately by futile.

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Old 06-03-2010, 05:07 AM   #113 (permalink)
 
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sounds like our conservative comrades agree with the obama administration which has assumed the traditional position on its knees in front of the israelis.

Gaza flotilla raid: Joe Biden asks 'So what's the big deal here?' | Richard Adams | World news | guardian.co.uk

i imagine that's discomfiting.

meanwhile, the rationale for the raid is not convincing to alot of israelis. for example, this edito from haaretz

Exit strategy: Lifting the Gaza blockade - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

makes the same case that alot of people are making in this thread.
the problem is the siege of gaza.
that should stop. it is not only barbaric in its consequences, but it's bad policy. stupid and self-defeating. it generates effects entirely opposed to israeli interests.

personally i support all pressure brought to bear on israel to end it.

meanwhile, much is being made of the fact that hamas won't allow delivery of the materials that were on the flotilla until all people who were taken into custody are released.
it is entirely possible to oppose the siege and not find hamas a swell bunch of guys.
but that requires nuance and nuance isn't a big action item for the whatever-israel-does-is-correct crowd.
why their existence as regional military superpower is on the line.
evil lurks around every corner threatening the regional military superpower.
sheesh.

bad policy. bad consequences. just bad.
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Old 06-03-2010, 05:16 AM   #114 (permalink)
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soL

Ten questions to AKP concerning the “Mavi Marmara” issue
Thu, 06/03/2010 - 14:07

* Turkey

It was, at the beginning, only soL and a few other media. Now more people ask these questions, including some Islamist columnists. And, with every hour, new questions come up.

Here are ten questions that AKP has to respond to:

1. What was the reason that made the 15 AKP MPs, that had announced that they would participate in the aid convoy, change their mind and give up the idea? Did the government impede the MPs upon information that an attack would occur?

2. Why was the national flag of the Mavi Marmara vessel changed and the ship became, legally, a non-Turkish ship?

3. Did Turkey take any measures after Israel gave the message that “the ships would be stopped” diplomatically and publicly? Is there a “calculation error”, or were the results of an attack ventured?

4. How can the government, while telling that the convoy is a “civil initiative”, claim the whole political responsibility of it? How can a government, that many times acted paranoically to blame everyone guilty, vouch for the organizers of the convoy? If the claim, which even certain Islamist writers share, that “AKP is a part of this whole thing since the beginning”, who were those that were on mission on board in the ship in the name of “the state”?

5. Who serves completely fallacious news to the press about the counter-measures of Turkey against Israel? Do the government authorities, who blame the press for being “liars” at every oportunity, produce these to pressure Israel, or to amuse the public?

6. Was the fact that the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and the Chief of General Staff of the Turkish Armed Forces were abroad when it was obvious that Israel would stop the ships a precaution to gain time, or measure the reaction of the U.S. and other countries?

7. Why did AKP object to certain expressions in the draft resolution of the TBMM? While all the moves concerning the issue or made under the initiative of Erdoğan, how possible is it that AKP MPs would object to the declaration without his knowledge? What is the source the claim that “Erdoğan solved the crisis”, despite this fact?

8. The content of the telephone interview between Erdoğan and Obama has been explained by both parties. Some expressions from Obama’s explanation were censured in the explanation made by the Turkish Prime Ministry. Did the U.S. President say to Turkey “Find other means for help”? If not, why does not the Prime Ministry believe that? If he did, why do they conceal that?

9. The government had demanded Israel to liberate all those in the aid convoy without any legal process and given a period of time. Israeli authorities announced that they “expelled” those in the ships. However, those in the ships were captured by force by the Israelis in international waters. “To expel” is a legal process and is a sanction that is determined by both each individual country’s laws and the international agreements. Did the government ask Israel the reason of the decision “to expel”?

10. After the terrorist attack of Israel, which changes happened concerning the relations between Turkey and Israel except the cancellation of the war games as a reaction to the attack?
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soL news portal is now in English

soL (the Left), which is being published since 2006 on worldwide web, is one of the most highly visited news portals in Turkey. As indicated by the very title of the portal, soL has never identified itself as an “impartial” and unscrupulous publication. We believe that the only consistent way of providing honest and accurate news requires one to take side in class struggles; to take side of the working class and toiling masses.

Hence, soL has never refrained itself from taking side in social and political issues; it has never concealed its distance from and battle with liberals, reactionaries and collaborationists of all sorts. soL has never refrained itself from saying aloud that Turkish and Kurdish workers have no other alternative, but wage a struggle together. And soL has never abstained from promoting anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist struggles of the world, and it has assumed solidarity with progressive political powers such as Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia etc. as a task of its own.

Hence soL did not abstain from declaring its principles at the onset:

soL adopts the universal values of the left,

soL is for egalitarianism,

soL is on the side of labor,

soL is anti-imperialist,

soL is patriotic,

soL is against chauvinism and fascism,

soL defends the unity of the workers of all countries,

soL is against all sorts of discrimination and exploitation,

soL supports enlightenment.
These principles have gained soL a prominent position and made it one of the most highly visited news portals of Turkey.

soL does not simply provide news on Turkey and the region; we also deem it necessary to provide “news with a perspective”. This perspective is given by the universal values and principles of the left.

Now, we feel that it is time to enlarge our scope and start contributing more to the establishment of a common sense among progressive, leftist forces of the world. We believe that our humble contribution would be to provide daily news and perspectives on Turkey, the region and the world.
For the time being, our contribution could be limited, but we pledge to improve the quality of work we carry out as we receive constructive critiques and proposals from our visitors.
The Turkish version of soL news portal publishes more than 80 news and 6-7 columns per day. The extent of the news covered by soL includes current political affairs, economics, local events, culture, sports, arts and world news. More than 50 columnists, some of whom are members of the Communist Party of Turkey (TKP) and some independent intellectuals, contribute to the portal.

As a beginning, we will provide our international visitors with translations of the most critical news that would hopefully come to the attention of those who share the same vision and principles with us. Also we will provide you with some of the columns that are not difficult to follow for those who are not familiar with Turkish political agenda.

Reiterating the main slogan of the Turkish portal, we say, keep watching the day from the left (soL).

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Old 06-03-2010, 05:24 AM   #115 (permalink)
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sounds like our conservative comrades agree with the obama administration which has assumed the traditional position on its knees in front of the israelis.
It's not all that surprising, really, that the administration went against the grain and sided with Israel. Disappointing, yes, but not surprising. It goes to show the overall conservative environment in American politics.

Quote:
meanwhile, the rationale for the raid is not convincing to alot of israelis. for example, this edito from haaretz makes the same case that alot of people are making in this thread.
the problem is the siege of gaza.
that should stop. it is not only barbaric in its consequences, but it's bad policy. stupid and self-defeating. it generates effects entirely opposed to israeli interests.
This is why support for the siege boggles the mind. It's currently one of the most high profile human rights violations in the world. And, as you claim, it's self-defeating. I think it's because of its reactionary nature. Reactionary measures seldom allow one to come out of situations cleanly. I think American politics is all too familiar with this. Maybe there's some kind of empathetic connection here.
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Old 06-03-2010, 06:17 AM   #116 (permalink)
 
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well, if this turns out to be an actual policy shift rather than a media-specific warning to netanyahu, the consequences of this raid could be quite bad indeed for the israeli right's siege:

Quote:
New Israeli Tack Needed on Gaza, U.S. Officials Say
By ETHAN BRONNER

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration considers Israel’s blockade of Gaza to be untenable and plans to press for another approach to ensure Israel’s security while allowing more supplies into the impoverished Palestinian area, senior American officials said Wednesday.

The officials say that Israel’s deadly attack on a flotilla trying to break the siege and the resulting international condemnation create a new opportunity to push for increased engagement with the Palestinian Authority and a less harsh policy toward Gaza.

“There is no question that we need a new approach to Gaza,” said one official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the policy shift is still in the early stages. He was reflecting a broadly held view in the upper reaches of the administration.

Israel would insist that any approach take into account three factors: Israel’s security; the need to prevent any benefit to Hamas, the Islamist rulers of Gaza; and the four-year-old captivity of an Israeli soldier held by Hamas, Staff Sgt. Gilad Shalit.

Since the botched raid that killed nine activists on Monday, the Israeli government has said that the blockade was necessary to protect Israel against the infiltration into Gaza of weapons and fighters sponsored by Iran.

If there were no blockade in place, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Israeli television on Wednesday evening, it would mean “an Iranian port in Gaza.” He added, “Israel will continue to maintain its right to defend itself.”

But the American officials said they believed that even Mr. Netanyahu understood that a new approach was needed.

Yet Mr. Netanyahu has resisted American pressure in the past. The Obama administration initially demanded a complete freeze on Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but had to accept a 10-month partial freeze. Pressure on Israel also carries domestic political risks for Mr. Obama, given the passion of its supporters in the United States.

Israel withdrew its soldiers and settlers from Gaza five years ago and built the makings of an international border. But after Hamas, which rejects Israel’s existence, won Palestinian parliamentary elections in 2006, Israel cut back on the amount of goods permitted into Gaza. When Sergeant Shalit was seized in a raid in June of that year, commerce was further reduced.

A year later, Hamas drove the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority entirely out of Gaza in four days of street battles, leading Israel to cut off all shipments in and out except basic food, humanitarian aid and urgent medical supplies.

Hamas declines to recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence or accept previous accords signed between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The diplomatic group known as the Quartet, made up of the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations, has said that until Hamas meets those requirements, the Quartet will not deal with it.

But the world powers have grown increasingly disillusioned with the blockade, saying that it has created far too much suffering in Gaza and serves as a symbol not only of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians but of how the West is seen in relation to the Palestinians.

“Gaza has become the symbol in the Arab world of the Israeli treatment of Palestinians, and we have to change that,” the senior American official said. “We need to remove the impulse for the flotillas. The Israelis also realize this is not sustainable.”

At a meeting of the Quartet a year ago in Italy, for example, the group asserted that the current situation was not sustainable and called for the unimpeded provision and distribution of humanitarian aid within Gaza, as well as the reopening of crossing points.

But Obama administration officials made it clear that the deaths had given a new urgency to changing the policy.

Pressure against the blockade continued to grow on Wednesday: Turkey, which withdrew its ambassador to Israel after the raid, said full restoration of diplomatic ties was contingent on an end to the blockade.

The new British prime minister, David Cameron, also called for an end to the blockade, criticizing the raid as “completely unacceptable.”

In Israel, officials say there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza because the Defense Ministry makes sure that enough food and medicine reach the population. But international aid groups assert that real malnutrition is growing to about 10 percent and that problems with medical and sanitation supplies are rising perilously because of the Israeli and Egyptian embargoes.

In recent months, Israel has permitted increased — although still quite limited — movement of goods and people into and out of Gaza. One Israeli official said that under Mr. Netanyahu there had been a 20 percent increase in goods, including some limited building materials under third-party supervision so that Hamas would not get hold of them.

But Israel remains adamant, saying that if cement and steel were allowed to pass in any serious amount, they would end up in Hamas missiles and other weapons that would be aimed at Israel.

Discussion in Israel this week has largely focused on the details of the seizure of the ship where the deaths occurred rather than on the broader question of whether the blockade is good policy.

Amos Gilad, a senior defense official, said in an interview that in Gaza, “we only have bad solutions, worse solutions and worst solutions.” He added: “Hamas is a terrorist organization sworn to Israel’s destruction. We, on the contrary, are facilitating them to bring in all kinds of food, materials; they are even exporting strawberries and flowers.”

Aluf Benn, a senior editor and columnist for the left-wing Israeli newspaper Haaretz wrote on Wednesday that the time had come for a new Gaza policy.

“The attempt to control Gaza from outside, via its residents’ diet and shopping lists, casts a heavy moral stain on Israel and increases its international isolation,” he wrote. “Every Israeli should be ashamed of the list of goods prepared by the Defense Ministry, which allows cinnamon and plastic buckets into Gaza, but not houseplants and coriander. It’s time to find more important things for our officers and bureaucrats to do than update lists.”

He suggested sealing the Israel-Gaza border and informing the international community that Israel was no longer responsible for Gaza in any way, forcing Gaza to turn to Egypt as its corridor to the outside world.

Egypt has consistently rejected such an idea in the past, asserting that Gaza is Israel’s responsibility because it has occupied it since 1967.

One of the primary rationales for the blockade offered by Israeli officials is the need to create a material and political gap between the West Bank, run by the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority, and Gaza, run by Hamas. And political surveys have shown a preference for Fatah and discontent with Hamas among Palestinians. But the latest events, the American officials say, have given Hamas a dangerous lift.
New Israeli Tack Needed on Gaza, U.S. Officials Say - NYTimes.com

hard to imagine a worse outcome for bibi's regime.

a couple other factoids of interest.

(1) the line being towed by our conservative comrades is exactly that taken by ole bibi himself:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

(2) biden's line is defending the raid while deploring the siege.
the israeli line is that of course we want to improve conditions for the civilians of gaza and that's why lifting the siege is impossible.
the conservative line is that everything that happened is entirely justified and that the siege of gaza is not problematic because the israelis are doing it. so it's a matter of definition.
so there are differences i guess.
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Last edited by roachboy; 06-03-2010 at 06:45 AM..
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:05 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dippin View Post
Knives, chains and steel pipes?

That is a veritable invading force! Every nation would tremble in front of such power!

Luckily, Israel bans those weapons, as well as all those other things that are clearly meant to be used for weapons, like notebooks, pens, a4 paper and fishing rods from going into gaza...

I seems clear to me, at this point, that the event was staged with the intent to instigate a fatal response. They accomplished their mission. I think the ultimate goal is to move world opinion closer to supporting what some hold as their goal of Israel's elimination. Peace loving people should not be "useful idiots" (look up the term before making charges against me) in this plan.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:59 AM   #118 (permalink)
 
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geez, ace.....so you imagine that what holds israel in the realm of the extant is the siege of gaza and that if that siege is lifted israel will be hoovered down the drain of some giant bathtub?
no wait---you think hamas organized the flotilla, don't you?
and that hamas sees itself as able to eliminate israel.
israel the regional military superpower.
that one, right?

and you imagine that free gaza wanted the idf to murder 10 people?


that's crazy.
not even aipac goes that far down nutty lane.
hell, even eliot abrams is sensible in comparison.

Groups want stronger U.S. defense of Israel, Obama not obliging | JTA - Jewish & Israel News
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Last edited by roachboy; 06-03-2010 at 09:02 AM..
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:14 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3 View Post
I seems clear to me, at this point, that the event was staged with the intent to instigate a fatal response. They accomplished their mission. I think the ultimate goal is to move world opinion closer to supporting what some hold as their goal of Israel's elimination. Peace loving people should not be "useful idiots" (look up the term before making charges against me) in this plan.
This is nonsense. The event was clearly staged to draw attention to the blockade, but to claim that the people on those boats wanted to die is silly.

Of course, in binary world, everything is simple: if you are against the blockade, the gaza incursion, the profiteering that goes on because of the blockade, the evictions of Palestinians without recourse to create more settlements, etc. you must be for Hamas and terrorism, right?

Meanwhile, in this whole "Israel was defending itself" hysteria, we've yet to hear anyone actually defend the blockade as it is (you know, the blockade that bans notebooks and pens, not the fantasy blockade that people have in mind).
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:36 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
geez, ace.....so you imagine that what holds israel in the realm of the extant is the siege of gaza and that if that siege is lifted israel will be hoovered down the drain of some giant bathtub?
Read what I wrote. Perhaps there is an issue bigger than Gaza involved, have you given that any thought?

Quote:
no wait---you think hamas organized the flotilla, don't you?
Hamas may not be involved, and even if they are not there are many who could have orchestrated this - even a small group of people who came up with the idea outside of any formal religious or political organization. I don't know. Do you know, and with what level of certainty?

Quote:
and that hamas sees itself as able to eliminate israel.
israel the regional military superpower.
that one, right?
What I wrote is simple and clear, why take what I wrote and add faulty straw-man arguments? It seems I take a broader view of the issue than your questions suggest and if you understand that you may get a better understanding of my point of view here.

Quote:
and you imagine that free gaza wanted the idf to murder 10 people?


that's crazy.
The craziness is of your own making.

Have you ruled out the possibility the event was staged?
Have you ruled out the motivation of instigating a fatal response to garner positive PR for a cause?
Have you dismissed the fact that there are people highly motivated to destroy Israel?

My choice is not to be a useful idiot. If this matter was really about food and aid, this issue would not be newsworthy.

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dippin View Post
This is nonsense. The event was clearly staged to draw attention to the blockade, but to claim that the people on those boats wanted to die is silly.
Given the history of the tactics used by terrorists do you really want to stand by this statement? I am going to assume not and that we all realize that there are people willing to die for their cause - even people who are not terrorists have been willing to die for a cause.

Quote:
Of course, in binary world, everything is simple: if you are against the blockade, the gaza incursion, the profiteering that goes on because of the blockade, the evictions of Palestinians without recourse to create more settlements, etc. you must be for Hamas and terrorism, right?
Again, I will not ignore the fact that there are people highly motivated to eliminate Israel - some to the extent that they would be willing to initiate a world war.

Quote:
Meanwhile, in this whole "Israel was defending itself" hysteria, we've yet to hear anyone actually defend the blockade as it is (you know, the blockade that bans notebooks and pens, not the fantasy blockade that people have in mind).
I think food and aid is able to get to the people who need it, even with the blockade. War is war. If Israel is at war a blockade is a normal strategy. I believe Israel is in a state of war. If these matters are to be de-escalated, peace loving people have to be more proactive and blind support of staged events is not helpful.
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