The_Dunedan

Because they won a number of closely monitored elections after Fatah's corruption and thefts became too egregious for anyone to ignore, even by the standards of the Middle East. Some say these results are doubtful because of the Hamas/Fatah violence surrounding the elections, but the fact remains that Hamas won and, as far as anyone's been able to determine, did so legitimately. The Israeli blockade and bombardment of Gaza came about because the Palestinians, at the urging of the US and Israel, held an election which didn't go the way Israel wanted.

ZCommunications | Why Hamas Won by Kristen Ess | ZNet Article

From Wikipedia: Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In the Palestinian legislative election of 2006, Hamas gained the majority of seats in the first fair and democratic elections held in Palestine,[70] defeating the ruling Fatah party. Many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance"[71]"

"In May 2006, after the US and other governments imposed sanctions on the Palestinian territories for voting for Hamas, Hassan al-Safi, a senior Hamas official in the Gaza Strip, threatened a new intifada against those US-led international forces.[79]"

aceventura3

Thanks, I appreciate the information in your post. It gives me some hope, but I am concerned about the cavalier attitude regarding the question by some. When national and religious leaders say they want to wipe Israel off of the face of the earth - I take that seriously. I have a fundamental problem with that attitude regardless of who is involved.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cimarron29414

Silent_Jay,

I believe she means in the overall picture, not just this event. Meaning, (and I am assuming here), "Why is Israel looked at as the oppressor of the Palestinian people and Hamas is not?"

Idyllic,

To answer that, and it's only my opinion, Hamas was elected by their people with full knowledge of what they wanted. So, any consequence directly associated with how Hamas is ruling the Palestinian people is by choice. Much the way anything our Presidents do is, to some extent, the will of the people. <- that's another debate.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

silent_jay

I believe you're right Cimarron, I think that's what she meant as wel lafter re-reading it, have to put on my mind readers hat sometimes with some of these posts haha.

I put a small edit to my post, but you and Dunedan answered it, they won elections, and when they won people didn't like the results and we ended up here.

roachboy

what the dunedan said above.

and like i keep saying, the israeli siege (that's what it is really) was begun out of a misguided attempt to prevent hamas from governing. the idea was based on nothing, really...it's not as though israel's attempts to pulverize the plo/fatah prevented it from operating. it's internal corruption was another matter---but under sharon, this approach had already been tried. and it failed. so why israel chose to respond this way to the gaza elections can only be chocked up to stupidity. stupidity backed by the bush administration because stupidity looped through the discourse of "terrorism"...

but not only has it reinforced support for hamas---it has also **prevented** the organization from moderating.

the counter-argument to the siege from the start was: if you want hamas to moderate, let them exercise power. the example of lebanon was clear.

bad policy, bad strategy, bad choices.
the israeli massacre in gaza simply made conditions worst. it did not break hamas. it had the opposite effect.

what i personally think has happened since is that the goldstone commission and other pressures---combined with the really unfortunate netanyahu government fell---have combined to make it difficult for israel to abandon the siege without losing face. so they've chosen to maintain it. which is at the root of all this business. not hamas. not really. a bad policy choice by the israelis that they are unlikely to be able to get away from until the right is bounced out of power again.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Here is some food for thought regarding Hamas, Palestinians, and the flotilla.

A success for non-violence in Gaza? - thestar.com

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cimarron29414

On a recent holiday, we befriended a couple who were children of Palestinian refugees. It was refreshing, in a way, to hear "their side of the story". The one thing that I got out of it was that Palestinians truly want a one-state solution. A common government where all people have a right to vote equally, Jew and Muslim alike.

Obviously, this would be troublesome for the Jews because it's a numbers game. They would never want "enough" Muslims present to take over the government. So, the two state solution is...better?...for the Jews.

The other major sticking point is the right of return. This doesn't just mean turning settlements back over to the former Palestinian inhabitants. This means that anyone with a deed from, say, 1920 for a parcel of land which is now inhabited by a Jew gets their land back. All refugees return to the land and are given citizenship, their land back, and a vote. Again, it's a numbers game and the Jews will lose that numbers game. Hence, they will never agree to the right of return.

Finally, there's the non-contiguous "nation" of Palestine. As long as the Palestinians have to travel through Israel to get to the other side of their country, there will always be strife in terms of commerse, security, and such.

I don't know how they will ever overcome these hurdles.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dlish

sadly, the only hate im seeing in this thread is coming from you idyllic. i dont see the so called islamic link that you speak of, and its been proven that you get you dont know the full extent of the issues here, nor do you realise what sources you rely on. i ask you one question that i ask regularly here, that you need to answer truthfully (to yourself at least)... how many muslims do you really know where you have sat down at spoken to as just normal human beings who want nothing but a good future for them and their kids? my gut feeling tells me none.

To be truly honest, ill tell you what i think about your arguments - your arguments twist and turn in many different directions and its hard keeping a straight conversation about the flotilla, israel and palestine without you throwing red herrings into the argument about alqaeda, hamas and hezbollah (btw i still am waiting for those sources. please feel free to pass them on at your own leisure).

p.s. and just in case, since you use the word arab and muslim synonymously, i thought id throw this one in for you. christian arabs make up a sizable percentage of the arab world.

lebanon has around 45-50% chriatian population
phaestine ahs around 600,000 chrsitians living in either camps or
jordan has around 10% christian population
im not sure about egypt, but they have a strong coptic chritian following as does iraq in the form of assyrians


You know idyllic, many moons ago, there was a member here by the name of Host who didnt know when to stop a futile argument... he's no longer with us unfortunately. Thats not a threat, but he irked a lot of people. people who even agreed with his arguments, but not his delivery. just thought id give you that piece of advice. pro bono.

jazz, the israelis didnt have a right to respond in international waters. all they needed to do was wait until they reached israeli waters and prove the threat. PR crisis averted. the fact that it happened in international waters makes the israelis no better than those somali pirates in the horn of africa.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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dippin

When thinking of Israel and Palestine, it is important to stop thinking about states and nations as unitary actors. A lot of what is going on is less about what is good for this or that state, but what is good for this or that party.

filtherton

Lately when I think about Israel, I just think Joe Pesci in either Goodfellas or Casino.

Willravel

Yes. I, personally (meaning, this post and my previous posts are imho), believe that theocracies shouldn't exist. Governments should be secular and provide freedom of (and from) religion as a fundamental right. If people wish to worship someone or something, that should be their right, but the idea that an entire state is based on a faith and forces that faith (or even lack thereof) on people is a human rights violation by default.

A friend and I were once talking about nationalism and he brought up this interesting idea about the idea of national identity as it pertains to culture and/or religion. His point was that the problem for theocrats (or "ethnocenterists", as he called them) is that the territory encompassed by their theocracy is not the same as the territory where their religion is. Their religion is found outside of their country, and other religions are always going to be found inside of their country. When a country attempts to expunge any group—be they ethnic, religious, cultural, or otherwise—from their supposed haven, inevitably they'll only end up creating a disaster for human rights. Iran has run into this problem and Israel is battling with it right now. It's insane that Israel, which is kinda based on Western governments and culture, is also trying to go through an ethnic and religious cleansing. It makes me think if there were more Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks here, we might be doing the same thing.

Then I go have some tea and read a book.

ottopilot

More evidence of the evil Jew horde!

Israeli Terrorist Navy Addresses a Ship in the Flotilla and Offers it to Dock in the Ashdod Port



Peace Activists Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects for an impromptu celebration of Kristallnacht.



Evil IDF Transfers Humanitarian Aid From Gaza Flotilla to Gaza Strip



Footage of peaceful Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking the Kosher KKK



Yes, we clearly witness the righteous intent of the peace-loving non-terrorist IHH and Free-Gaza acting only in the best interest of peaceful Palestinians. They were right to refuse the deceitful offers of port access from both Egypt and Israel while expressing their explicit intent to cross the blockade. Brave peace activists, who by the way made time in advance to prepare wills and martyrdom videos, thought never to provoke the IDF.

Why won't the racist aggressor Jews just die?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

silent_jay

Got to love outrageous statements with no back up, until I see proof of this I smell bullshit.
Why wouldn't they deliver it? They need to do something right in this fiasco, and now they're trying t odo damage control and get a cunt hair of good PR.

Idyllic

The only people I talked of with great negativity were the terrorist linked sects (specifically those who use religion as a foundation for their tyranny), somehow this got turned into me hating people, how is that. I voiced my opinions about what I was reading and learning and understanding about the issues and it was turned into me spewing hate, I don't hate anything except the suffering of innocent people. I asked questions, I read and listened, I tried to explain my views as best I could, and still, my words are interpreted incorrectly, if ignorance is what you wish to project upon an educated person who wants to learn and debate and is truly hungry for understanding then how do you expect anyone to learn anything when you condescend them to a point where you remove their voice and instill in them a fear of speaking their opinions with threats of banishment, how do you expect anyone to learn, how do you expect any conversation, any debate, any forum.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

silent_jay

Read the words idyllic that dlish wrote:
I mean damn, see that's your main problem, you don't actually read what people type, you read what you think you see, or what you percieve to see in their posts.
Actually you called the people on this boat 'hate filled animals' and implied they were terrorists, even though you deny it, everyone can see it.
Yes you did voice your opinions, and others voiced their disagreement with those opinions, that is what happens during political discussions, but you also admitted you don't know enough about the 'Turkey connection', then continued on with the 'there were terrorists on the boat' all the while showing us no proof, even though it has been asked for repeatedly. This is a place where you have to back up your statements, say something outrageous, you'll be called on it.

I agree with dlish, the main issue with you is, your arguments twist and turn, you imply things, then say you weren't implying it and get upset when people read what your words say.

rahl

Idyllic, this is the form of playing the "victim" card that was discussed in another thread. You presented your opinion, which was inflamatory and bias'd from the start. People called you on your unsupported claims, and you are now crying victim.

No one is victimizing you, you just made a claim with no evidence and was called on it.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Idyllic

So what I think you are saying is that by trying to forcibly push hamas out it is in turn the creation of the problem and that if left to their own devises the people themselves would grow beyond the tyranny, I think I understand this and in such theory I would like to believe the reality of this. I don't know that I believe Israel is attempting an ethnic cleansing, however, if one considers hamas as an ethnic entity, then yes, I believe you could say they are, but I tend to see hamas (as well as other tyrannical regimes) more as a cancer and the risk of its growth being so disruptive as to destroy the body of Palestine (or wherever they thrive) and any citizens that get in its way.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

ottopilot

IDF commander, "OY VEY! we better "t odo" and get a cunt hair of good PR !(WTF?)... so lets schlep or be schmucks!"

More peace activism brought to by IHH and Free-Gaza!
Al-Jazeera TV Report from "Freedom Flotilla" Before Its Departure for Gaza: Activists on Board Chant Intifada Songs and Praise Martyrdom



Perhaps leaving the herd once and a while and getting some fresh air will help with that odor problem!

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dippin

I've yet to see anything that justifies boarding a ship in international waters and shooting at unarmed civilians.

silent_jay

That's of no concern to people like otto, he never lets proof get in the way of a good story
Yes they delivered the aid for good PR, it's not a hard concept to grasp, well for some it may be I suppose.
Nope, it seems to originate from some things here.

ottopilot

... yes, unarmed civilians with flash grenades, tasers, knives, chains and steel pipes used to beat the commandos to a pulp as they repelled from their helicopters.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

silent_jay

So, they've gone from having metal pipes and knives, to metal pipes, bulletproof vests, NVG, and knives, now we're at flash grenades, tasers, knives, chains, NGV, bulletproof vests and steel pipes.

Jesus by tomorrow some here will be saying they had a nuke in their cargo hold, this just keeps getting more and more outrageous.

rahl

Do you honestly not see the absurdity in this statement? People repelling from helicopters with guns to kill people in international waters(which is piracy by the way) who are armed with pipes and knives.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

ottopilot

It's not absurd if you are aware of the facts. Simply read the article I quoted previously at the website (with pictures - that might help). The "peace activists" prepared in advance to engage with violence... and yes, they brought weapons.

The IDF boarded vessels that were given the opportunity to port in Egypt and Israel with offers to transport their humanitarian cargo to Gaza. The flotilla refused and demonstrated explicit intent to break the embargo and proceed to Gaza. The commandos boarded the vessels to verify contents and were armed with paintball guns as their primary deterrent. The commandos carried side-arms with orders not to use unless their lives were threatened. The passengers physically engaged the commandos first as they approached by sea and also swarmed the soldiers repelling to the decks. They beat the soldiers mercilessly with pipes and threw at least one off of the ship. The flotilla's intent was to provoke, and they were successful. The actions of the IDF are not unlike our coast guard boarding vessels with suspicious intent. The ship is contacted and informed that they will be boarded. If met with violence, they are obliged to defend themselves.

For many here, I know it comes to great shock and disappointment to imagine otherwise, but the IDF did not board the ship with the intent to commit a gun-blazing massacre.

The question of engaging the flotilla in international waters may be a problem for Israel. However, in researching the background of the primary flotilla organizers (IHH and Free-Gaza) you will find that they are in no way innocent humanitarian movements. IHH has a solidly documented history of terrorist activity and connections, "Free-Gaza" is a pro-Palestine/anti-Israel political scam.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Baraka_Guru

I don't see how any of this brings about a conclusion that the ends justify the means.

Let's assume that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Let's assume that the flotilla passengers were armed with non-military weapons that didn't include firearms until the IDF boarded.
Let's assume that the flotilla intended to break the blockade.
Let's assume that there could have been stuff aboard that were restricted materials according to Israel.

None of that justifies Israel's actions, and certainly none of it justifies the outcome.

Israel fucked up. It fucked up for fear of materials on a flotilla that will likely end up in Gaza anyway. It fucked up and now people are dead.

I mean, I understand that they're running a blockade and shit---which, of course, is part and parcel of a good quality siege---and I understand that they're highly concerned with terrorist activities and their own self-defense....but seriously...I can't understand how anyone can justify Israel's handling of this particular situation.

Can we not at least admit that Israel screwed up?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

rahl

Piracy plain and simple

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Willravel

No, I was more talking about how all theocracies violate basic human rights. That includes Iran, that includes Hamas, and that includes the Jewish pseudo-theocracy Israel. You were asking about Israel's right to exist, and the very first thing that came to mind was, "Yeah it can exist as long as they drop their version of theocracy."

Marvelous Marv

Quit wasting your breath. The world recognizes that Israel was set up on this one, and for whatever reason, the posters in this thread support an organization that has sworn to eradicate Israel. You'll get them to listen when Hamas professes undying love for Israel, not before.

__________________
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Margaret Thatcher

silent_jay

Really the world does? You must have a lot of air miles from all that travelling. More of those outrageous statements with no proof that are becoming so common here from some posters, damn I'm really starting to miss Ustwo more and more, at least he could prove most of what he said.

Last I checked I didn't support any organization that has sworn to eradicate Israel, but then I doubt any of the posters in this thread does, but don't let facts get in the way of your story.

Sure is starting to smell like bullshit in here again.....

I really shouldn't feed your kind, but what the hell, got to have something to do, and it's always funny to see what colour the sky is in other people's world.

dippin

Knives, chains and steel pipes?

That is a veritable invading force! Every nation would tremble in front of such power!

Luckily, Israel bans those weapons, as well as all those other things that are clearly meant to be used for weapons, like notebooks, pens, a4 paper and fishing rods from going into gaza...

ottopilot

The critical point that is conveniently overlooked in this thread is that if the IDF was allowed to board and inspect the ship without being attacked, none of the "peace activists" would be dead or injured as a result.

This thread reminds me of the Census Worker thread... a poorly informed herd-mentality lynch-mob where the so-called victim turns out to be the perpetrator. In this case the villainous right-wing tea-bagger stereotype is replaced by Israel. Your prejudice is a cliché.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

filtherton

Do you really think this point is lost on anyone here? Why don't you step of your high horse and spend some time reading what people have been writing and see if you can figure out why people are really being critical of the IDF and Israel here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I were on a flotilla in international waters and commandos boarded from a country which has shown itself all to willing to commit and successfully cover up acts characterized by independent investigatory bodies as war crimes, I might be inclined to fight back too. Even if I knew that it would ultimately by futile.

roachboy

sounds like our conservative comrades agree with the obama administration which has assumed the traditional position on its knees in front of the israelis.

Gaza flotilla raid: Joe Biden asks 'So what's the big deal here?' | Richard Adams | World news | guardian.co.uk

i imagine that's discomfiting.

meanwhile, the rationale for the raid is not convincing to alot of israelis. for example, this edito from haaretz

Exit strategy: Lifting the Gaza blockade - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

makes the same case that alot of people are making in this thread.
the problem is the siege of gaza.
that should stop. it is not only barbaric in its consequences, but it's bad policy. stupid and self-defeating. it generates effects entirely opposed to israeli interests.

personally i support all pressure brought to bear on israel to end it.

meanwhile, much is being made of the fact that hamas won't allow delivery of the materials that were on the flotilla until all people who were taken into custody are released.
it is entirely possible to oppose the siege and not find hamas a swell bunch of guys.
but that requires nuance and nuance isn't a big action item for the whatever-israel-does-is-correct crowd.
why their existence as regional military superpower is on the line.
evil lurks around every corner threatening the regional military superpower.
sheesh.

bad policy. bad consequences. just bad.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Idyllic

soL is:

english@sol.org.tr

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Baraka_Guru

It's not all that surprising, really, that the administration went against the grain and sided with Israel. Disappointing, yes, but not surprising. It goes to show the overall conservative environment in American politics.

This is why support for the siege boggles the mind. It's currently one of the most high profile human rights violations in the world. And, as you claim, it's self-defeating. I think it's because of its reactionary nature. Reactionary measures seldom allow one to come out of situations cleanly. I think American politics is all too familiar with this. Maybe there's some kind of empathetic connection here.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

well, if this turns out to be an actual policy shift rather than a media-specific warning to netanyahu, the consequences of this raid could be quite bad indeed for the israeli right's siege:

New Israeli Tack Needed on Gaza, U.S. Officials Say - NYTimes.com

hard to imagine a worse outcome for bibi's regime.

a couple other factoids of interest.

(1) the line being towed by our conservative comrades is exactly that taken by ole bibi himself:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

(2) biden's line is defending the raid while deploring the siege.
the israeli line is that of course we want to improve conditions for the civilians of gaza and that's why lifting the siege is impossible.
the conservative line is that everything that happened is entirely justified and that the siege of gaza is not problematic because the israelis are doing it. so it's a matter of definition.
so there are differences i guess.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

I seems clear to me, at this point, that the event was staged with the intent to instigate a fatal response. They accomplished their mission. I think the ultimate goal is to move world opinion closer to supporting what some hold as their goal of Israel's elimination. Peace loving people should not be "useful idiots" (look up the term before making charges against me) in this plan.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

geez, ace.....so you imagine that what holds israel in the realm of the extant is the siege of gaza and that if that siege is lifted israel will be hoovered down the drain of some giant bathtub?
no wait---you think hamas organized the flotilla, don't you?
and that hamas sees itself as able to eliminate israel.
israel the regional military superpower.
that one, right?

and you imagine that free gaza wanted the idf to murder 10 people?


that's crazy.
not even aipac goes that far down nutty lane.
hell, even eliot abrams is sensible in comparison.

Groups want stronger U.S. defense of Israel, Obama not obliging | JTA - Jewish & Israel News

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dippin

This is nonsense. The event was clearly staged to draw attention to the blockade, but to claim that the people on those boats wanted to die is silly.

Of course, in binary world, everything is simple: if you are against the blockade, the gaza incursion, the profiteering that goes on because of the blockade, the evictions of Palestinians without recourse to create more settlements, etc. you must be for Hamas and terrorism, right?

Meanwhile, in this whole "Israel was defending itself" hysteria, we've yet to hear anyone actually defend the blockade as it is (you know, the blockade that bans notebooks and pens, not the fantasy blockade that people have in mind).

aceventura3

Read what I wrote. Perhaps there is an issue bigger than Gaza involved, have you given that any thought?

Hamas may not be involved, and even if they are not there are many who could have orchestrated this - even a small group of people who came up with the idea outside of any formal religious or political organization. I don't know. Do you know, and with what level of certainty?

What I wrote is simple and clear, why take what I wrote and add faulty straw-man arguments? It seems I take a broader view of the issue than your questions suggest and if you understand that you may get a better understanding of my point of view here.

The craziness is of your own making.

Have you ruled out the possibility the event was staged?
Have you ruled out the motivation of instigating a fatal response to garner positive PR for a cause?
Have you dismissed the fact that there are people highly motivated to destroy Israel?

My choice is not to be a useful idiot. If this matter was really about food and aid, this issue would not be newsworthy.

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

Given the history of the tactics used by terrorists do you really want to stand by this statement? I am going to assume not and that we all realize that there are people willing to die for their cause - even people who are not terrorists have been willing to die for a cause.

Again, I will not ignore the fact that there are people highly motivated to eliminate Israel - some to the extent that they would be willing to initiate a world war.

I think food and aid is able to get to the people who need it, even with the blockade. War is war. If Israel is at war a blockade is a normal strategy. I believe Israel is in a state of war. If these matters are to be de-escalated, peace loving people have to be more proactive and blind support of staged events is not helpful.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."