04-09-2009, 11:55 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The only thing I can think of that might stand a chance is corporate espionage, stealing the list of people being monitored and releasing it to the public so that the lawsuits against the telecoms can finally go through. The problem, though, is that no one in a position to release that list is interested in doing so either out of self-interest or fear. |
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04-09-2009, 11:57 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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04-09-2009, 12:11 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-09-2009, 12:13 PM | #44 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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cimmaron: not exactly. i don't think the right is relevant at this point because it is the wreckage they left behind from being in power that constitutes the mess that the obama administration is working it's way through. that's why. republican/democrat--not something i particularly care about.
but see it as you like. you only read some of my post in any event.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-09-2009, 12:17 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-09-2009, 12:26 PM | #48 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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To demand/expect the same level of "vitriol" to two somewhat distinct approaches is to miss the boat entirely. The reaction to Bush was worse because the policies were worse. What you are saying is effectively meaningless. You seem to recognize that the left and most liberals here are against the wiretapping program, and yet somehow in your mind they are hypocrites for not opposing it with as much gusto as they did to Bush. Isn't their opposition enough? And maybe that vitriol was aimed not only at wiretaps, but at torture, secret memos, extraordinary rendition, gitmo, "enemy combatant" and so on? I disagree with the wiretaps, and think they are a disgrace. But Im not shortsighted enough to equate Obama keeping SOME of the elements of the GWOT to Bush implementing them in a much broader manner. If Obama backtracks and brings back what he has said he will dismantle, then Ill bet he will face the same level of vitriol. |
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04-09-2009, 12:41 PM | #50 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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hmmmm, not sure how to take that rb.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
04-09-2009, 12:43 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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If that doesn't say, "Don't talk to us because you don't think like us", I don't know what does. So much for that old Liberal adage, "I disagree with everything you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it." How enlightened you are. P.S. registered Independent, member of the Libertarian Party. Didn't vote for Bush, didn't vote for Obama, didn't vote for McCain. Done.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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04-09-2009, 12:54 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Rose Bowl 91,136 Candlestick Park 69,843 Dodger Stadium 56,000 Houston Astrodome 54,816 Rarely on New Years Eve does NYC get filled up with 1 Million people on the street in one area. how would you be armed if we repeal the 2nd amendment?
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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04-09-2009, 01:00 PM | #53 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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cimmaron---that's not what the sentences say. what they object to is the implication in your post that if "liberals" (whatever) do not act as you think they should, then conclusions 1, 2, 3 all follow--and that this is a way of seeing this question that's relevant for everyone, and not simply for you. you set your position up pretty clearly: if folk objected to the bush policy, which you reduce to this single point, and that policy, still without context and so more or less meaningless, persists, there "should be" the same kind of indignation. you want to use this to "demonstrate" some "hypocrisy" on the part of "liberals"...
but you presuppose that your framework would be read by other folk and recognized as binding on them. otherwise, you're just making an observation. but you didn't frame it as an observation--you framed it as moving from "your liberal friends" to "all liberals" as if it constituted an argument. that's why i wrote what i did. i also wrote a bunch of other stuff that you ignored.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-09-2009, 01:02 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Bombs. Molotov cocktails. The usual. Edit: to clarify, it was just a hypothetical. I would never kill anyone because there aren't any reasons important enough to kill for. Last edited by Willravel; 04-09-2009 at 01:09 PM.. |
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04-09-2009, 01:11 PM | #55 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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then why should the police ever bother to pause and think before they stomp and kick you to the curb?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
04-09-2009, 01:40 PM | #56 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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If I ever were to kill, it would likely be an instinctual reaction, something I just do as a reflex. Some of them might end up dead and then I'd end up dead. It would solve nothing. I kinda feel like we're getting off topic, though. |
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04-09-2009, 02:08 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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politicians in this day and age will ignore you until there are two reasons not to. One, is to resort to overwhelming violence. Two, is to have overwhelming numbers. enough so that they get the idea that those that elected them will visit consequences upon them if they don't do their job. unfortunately, with the issues we are facing today, unless you have millions upon millions, they will continue to ignore us, so long as we are peaceful.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-09-2009, 02:26 PM | #59 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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apples and oranges. one guy delivering a bomb truck is not going to get them to notice you the way you want. hundred and thousands rioting, like after the BART shooting, will do it.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
04-09-2009, 09:43 PM | #61 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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And the people we do vote in, retire to work for the lobbyists, think tanks and people that happily make sure we the people stay obedient, docile and lethargic. So if this country survives to 2010, we'll elect more the same because they have made it impossible for someone not in their good graces to win. Thus the people see no choices, lose hope and vote almost how the press tells them to. Violence should be a last option, passive resistance, organized marches on DC, state capitols, county seats, city halls should be done. But that also takes money and people willing to take risks... neither of which are prevalent. The people who would march are economically scared to because of lost work and are scared of the very government officials they put into office. Homeless marching may make a difference but they are just trying to survive and the rich or the people profiting in the status quo, will do all they can to make sure no one organizes or is taken seriously, via the press, via using any means necessary. People should not be afraid of those governing, those governing should be afraid of the people. Somewhere down the line this country lost sight of that. It has been said and I am of the belief our government and the political parties controlling it took lessons from the Mafia in how to keep people quiet, scared and obedient.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 04-09-2009 at 09:49 PM.. |
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04-10-2009, 02:26 AM | #62 (permalink) |
let me be clear
Location: Waddy Peytona
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As I read through this thread, I believe I'm sensing some buyers remorse.
Buyer's remorse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Comrades, Dear Leader is just getting started.
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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo |
04-10-2009, 04:43 AM | #63 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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there are absolutely no rights you'd feel strongly enough to fight for until the death? Interesting how little actual conviction you really have.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
04-10-2009, 05:10 AM | #64 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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wait---this is about state surveillance that runs beyond any meaningful legal limit, but which is not itself illegal because the authorization for it comes out of the patriot act (god how i hate that name...)
i read through the thread so i understand empirically how we got to a debate about revolutionary action/insurrection---but logically, th the more i think about the connection the less sense it makes. no-one seriously thinks that the only form of political action is revolutionary. if the question is how one might go about organizing protests, or pressure groups, or a campaign to bring pressure on congress to repeal the patriot act, or not renew it, and so undercut the legal basis for the wiretapping, the answer's not that complicated. it's easy enough to start a webcampaign that would result in, say, tons of emails or phone calls. it's not that difficult to organize a demo---the logisitics of a large-scale "legit" demo are pretty arduous (permits and all that) but not insurmountable, and it's not like no-one's ever done this work before so you're not exactly inventing the wheel. the point is that this is an issue that one may not like, but which functions entirely within the logic of the dominant order. to address it, what's required is sustained pressure. running around with a gun pretending you're some kind of minuteman looking to overthrow the state is not only tactically absurd in this case, but it's strategically meaningless. will's been making versions of this argument all along... to skip over the legion intermediate forms and cut straight to fantasizing about armed revolt seems a circle jerk. to go from this circle jerk to a second-order one, which is somehow about one's abstract "committment" to the possibility of an armed insurrection that makes no sense in this context to begin with... what exactly is the point?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-10-2009, 07:20 AM | #65 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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nobody approached that tactic
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-10-2009, 07:43 AM | #66 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Who was victimized and how were they damaged? Why is "government" obtaining telephone records a bigger deal than, lets say the "government" obtaining and having access to virtually all of our financial records? Since the tax deadline is around the corner and since I am doing my taxes I personally find this intrusion into personal privacy a much bigger concern than some CIA agent listening to what I am ordering on my pizza - but actually, I don't order pizza from known terrorists located in other countries. So, I guess my pizza ordering habits are still between me and my local pizza joint.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-10-2009, 07:46 AM | #67 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i'm not going to defend the permitting thing---that they should not be necessary is one of the few areas in which we are entirely in agreement, dk...and even for the same basic reasons.
but the reality is that if you want to organize a demo of any size, the permitting process is a way to deal with police and other city regulations, almost all of which are geared around managing questions of circulation within the city of often very dense, overlapping types of movement. but in principle, it is a problem---and there is little doubt that political protest should override these other management functions because, at bottom, these functions are part of the normal course of things that presupposes political consent--so it follows that political action, which effects or reflects (one way or another, to one extent or another) should supercede the regulations that presuppose consent. ------------ on the "logical" progression of protest to civil war/insurrection: have you been reading engels? this is his basic line. EXCEPT that you leave out the central motor of this progression, which is that the movement that the state confronts is understood as posing a basic challenge to the legitimacy, if not the material existence, of the state itself. protesting the wiretapping business--that is protesting the continuation of a conservative policy, undertaken by a conservative administration--is not a threat to the legitimacy of the state. unless a hamfisted response from the police etc. makes it into one. there's alot to be said about the changes in police approaches to public protest since the vietnam period, but that's another matter, maybe for another thread. the point is that absent a significant threat to the state itself, there is no logical or normal progression from demo to anything else.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-10-2009, 08:02 AM | #68 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ---------- Yeah, until they started looting and lost all credibility. Same thing happened in LA 15 years ago. It started as a social issues riot and devolved into barbarism and theft. |
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04-10-2009, 08:11 AM | #69 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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It sounds more like you'd be a martyr for rights, not actually sieze what are your rights.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
04-10-2009, 08:15 AM | #70 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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What the large telecoms and Bushco (and now Obama) did was bypass existing FISA laws to unlawfully spy on people. They could not supply probable cause, presumptively because there was none. Again, whether or not you value privacy, I know that you value adherence to the law, not just as a conservative but as aceventura, as a conviction. I could explain to you why privacy is important to me, but that's not likely to convince you because you have a different set of values. If you disagree strongly enough with my values, feel free to do anything and everything you can to legally change existing privacy laws, but I should warn you that you'll be fighting an uphill battle. ---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 AM ---------- Quote:
I'll simplify. I'd not kill someone for free speech. Does that mean I don't value free speech? Only to an absolutist (and absolutists are absolutely always wrong without exception ). I do value free speech, a great deal in fact, but not to the point where I'd violate my strongest conviction and kill someone over it. As soon as I cross that line, I violate my own code of convictions and I'm no better than anyone that's gone to war. |
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04-10-2009, 08:38 AM | #71 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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to add to what will said above in response to ace...
beyond the privacy question as it pertains to individuals, there's also the long inglorious history of american paranoia with respect to political opposition, particularly from the left. now the extent to which this history is even present for you as an object of thinking has alot to do with where you happen to be politically yourself---so for a conservative fellow who himself is maybe horrified by the idea of a serious political threat coming from the left, maybe this is a non-issue--but if you identify via that category of "left" then it is present for you. and it is self-evident that when the bush people instituted this warantless wiretapping, the rationale was the "war on terror" and "terror" was NOT a particularly tightly defined term. as the controversy about the various mechanisms that were either in place to planned mounted, the bush people issued various qualifications to what they claimed was their operative definition of "terrorist" or "suspicious"---but given the black box environment within which this warantless business was happening, there was and could be no meaningful oversight, no transparency---and given the administration's track record with this whole telling the truth question, there's no reason to think that this program was not, in fact, being used to monitor opposition to the iraq debacle within the united states, in that glorious tradition of cointelpro which we all know and love so much as one of the grander moments in the history of free speech in amurica. so it's a particularly nasty little bit of business, this wiretapping stuff, which harkens back to more explicitly repressive versions of this glorious land of ours. thing is that i have no reason to assume that the obama administration is operating on the same paranoid logic as the bushpeople did so the question so *why* this program would be continued is strange to me--which is why i was putting up questions about possible relations between it and the changes that the obama administration is starting to attempt in military strategic orientation, which would result in---FINALLY--a dismantling of the national security state if they were taken far enough. within that, there's another question about trade-offs and intentions---because it's a whole lot clearer what's being moved away from than it is what's being moved into. you can't blame a boy for wondering about this.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-10-2009, 08:40 AM | #72 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-10-2009, 08:52 AM | #73 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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---------- Post added at 09:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ---------- Quote:
If everyone adopted this philosophy, war would be something you read about in old books. |
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04-10-2009, 11:15 AM | #74 (permalink) |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Just to clear my own name: My "devil's advocate" post was not made as a personal defense of Obama, but as a method of opening up the debate. I resent the implication that my post was somehow representative of "typical liberal hypocrisy" on the issue.
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04-10-2009, 01:18 PM | #75 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I do value privacy. I value the type of privacy that matters to me. I don't expect my phone calls to be private. Don't expect my mail to be private, email, smoke signals or any form of communication that involves another party. However, I do find the intrusion by the government into my financial life to be more of a concern. For example if I have a nanny for my child why does the government need to be involved in what I pay him or her? Why do they need to even know I employ one? Why I am I responsible for his or her taxes? I really find it ironic how one form of a privacy invasion is o.k. and another is not. That is one my points. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-10-2009, 01:45 PM | #76 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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As roachboy said, because there's been such little transparency on this issue, combined with the fact that the previous administration demonstrated again and again and again that it wasn't trustworthy at least requires some form of investigation to see what they did. If they were responsible (and hell freezes over), that's great. If not, some people need to be prosecuted. I'll put this in different terms. Let's say you have a very, very rich uncle that you never met, but that left you a hefty sum in his will. Before his will can be executed, someone robs the accounts of the money that was going to be given to you. You never find out about it. Have you been robbed? Of course. Similarly, anyone innocent that was monitored without probable cause was robbed of his or her privacy without even knowing it. Their lack of awareness doesn't negate the crime. I'm saying that being spied upon is the harm. I know you're not comfortable with that conclusion, but it's on the Bill of Rights and in tons of court decisions. We have a constitutional right to privacy. Just like I'll defend the Second Amendment even though I disagree with it, you should recognize that a right named in the Constitution is just as legitimate regardless of whether or not you value it. Last edited by Willravel; 04-10-2009 at 01:55 PM.. Reason: two "like"s in the same sentence. unacceptable |
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04-10-2009, 01:48 PM | #77 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-14-2009, 08:05 AM | #78 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-14-2009, 11:43 AM | #79 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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I do value privacy. I value the type of privacy that matters to me. Quote:
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Do the ends justify the means?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-14-2009, 01:23 PM | #80 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 04-14-2009 at 01:27 PM.. |
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continues, obama, warrantless, wiretaps |
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