djtestudo

That implies a specific set of general beliefs, and likely a set of specific beliefs that they share.

That isn't the same thing as the color of one's skin. It's more like someone saying they voted for Obama because he was the "most Democrat".

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

timalkin

96% of black voters picked Obama.

3% of black voters picked McCain.

Compare these results to the 2004 presidential election when Kerry only received 88% of the black vote. More blacks voted in this election than in any previos election. Is Obama any more or less liberal than Kerry? Probably not enough to make a difference in the numbers.

I never said that ALL black voters chose Obama because he was black, but take a look at what's being said and done by a large number of blacks:

-Excessive celebration. When was the last time we've seen such huge celebrations in the streets by blacks? When O.J. was found not guilty. I don't recall this behavior when Clinton was elected or reelected in the 90's.

-Statements that they voted for Obama because he was black.
-Statements concerning how great it is to have a black president.
-Statements about how they never thought they'd see a black president in their lifetime.

The list goes on and on. Why is it that a white person saying that they voted for McCain because he is white a racist remark, but not when a black person says they voted for Obama because he is black? It's the same thing either way. There is a distinct double standard in this country when it comes to racism. A white person who claims to have voted for Obama because he is black is also a racist.

When will racism ever stop if we continue to make decisions based on race? Racism will never cease if we keep encouraging it. But then again, many people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have a lot to lose if racism really disappears.

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

dc_dux

There are some who will vote for the candidate with whom they are most comfortable....be it race, religion, age....

But what was more ignorant in timalkin's observation about Black voters for Obama was to characterize it as "racist" suggesting no understanding of the term.

The same lack of understanding of the term "racism" expressed above.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

shakran

No, but Kerry couldn't get a kid excited about candy. They're two different men, and not just for the superficial reasons you cite.

djtestudo

I agree about comfort, but I still think they are two different levels. I don't think there is a problem with voting for someone because they have the same values as you do, but I do when the reason turns to basic race.

I'm not going to go through the whole, "I'm white, but I'm not racist because I have black friends, etc." (I don't have black friends, but I also don't have any friends ), but I do think timalkin has a point. If the main reason a black person voted for or against a candidate, white or black or any other racial or ethnic background, is because of skin color, that is very questionable in my opinion. Same as if I voted for or against McCain or Obama because of their race.

In this election, because of the specifically historic nature of Obama's victory when it comes to race, I'm not overly upset. However, if it becomes a trend that a candidate gets the overwhelming majority of votes from others of their race because of their race, that would be, and should be to all, very disconcerting to the way our country is heading.

Honestly, I think the bigger issue is having almost the entire black population in most elections voting Democrat, but that is something completely different.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Amaras

Best thing about this discussion is that when the first Latino or Asian person gets the nod, hopefully most of the ignorance will
have been cleaned up.
Anybody got numbers on % of Catholics who voted for Kennedy vs. Nixon way back when?
Timalkin, I want you to understand something quite simple, people vote for the person they think will give them the best shake, the best deal, represent their interests the best. After Bush (and the Republican Parties) treatment of the poorer districts in New Orleans, which were predominately black, do you think some, including thoughtful whites, might not have thought that blacks are poorly served by a Republican President? I might not like Kanye West's opinions very much, and I hate it even more when he's right about George Bush not caring about black people.
Why do I care? Well, up by your treeline you may not realize this, but Northern European (read white) culture's power is on the decline. I think if we here can treat EVERYONE with equality, they MIGHT not put our children on trial for the horrors our great grandparents committed in the name of "purity".

About this "excessive celebration", please provide concrete examples. Otherwise you are talking out of your ass.


By the way, a lot of us (myself included) should read and learn from what the ladies are saying about us over in their forum. Guys, remember, read, don't post.
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/ladies-...-politics.html

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

rmarshall

You know, I drove to the polling station a couple of days ago to vote for Obama and nobody was there! Boy, did I feel silly. Apparently, Canadians can't vote in American elections!

Seriously though, how do they know the races or religions or whatever of who votes for who? The ballots are the same as here, right? X marks the spot. There's no 20 questions on the ballot. It's all statistics from polls, which are no better than wild ass guesses.

Anyway, what was interesting to me was how the various ethnic groups got off there couches and went door to door to raise money and make sure all the Obama voters got to the polls. And I read that he said, "we can't lose if we outnumber them!". If he can run such a successful campaign and motivate people to do that to get him elected, he can motivate them to help him solve their problems. "Yes we can".

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

shakran

Exit polls. those who consent to them answer who they voted for and then a bunch of questions about their life. (do you own a gun, how old are you, etc)

rmarshall

Thanks. I don't think we have them here. Or maybe I was in too big of a hurry to get the hell out. I think you're kind of encouraged to get the hell out. They can't be very accurate. Only those with nothing better to do would hang about filling out surveys for free. Now, maybe if they were giving out hotdogs and drinks....

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

abaya

Cheers, man.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

pig

These comments about race remind me of something:

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

abaya

I haven't seen one of those since high school physics... nice one, Pig.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Amaras

What is it? Forgive my ignorance. I took High School physics and don't remember it
(or much of High School, for that matter).
Abaya, No, thank you!

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

abaya

It's a bell jar... the machine underneath it sucks out all the air from inside the jar, creating a vacuum inside. It makes for some damn cool demonstrations. (I was way too much of a science nerd in high school. )

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Amaras

Abaya,
The bell jar! I've read about it. We used some sort of domed contraption, kinda like a
cake cover, with a vacuum hose, plastic seals, clamps, etc....
It's funny, but I never studied (like, AT ALL) in H.S. but I tended to do very well in
Physics, math, and biology. Chemistry, not so much.....

To everyone else, sorry about the threadjack, not intended. Please return to our reularly
scheduled programming.....

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

mrklixx

They suck?

__________________
This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent.

This is not a link - Do not click here

I hate animated avatars.

rmarshall

empty-headed
-----Added 8/11/2008 at 03 : 43 : 06-----
Well, that thread will likely get moved over here anyway. I prefer to read stuff like "The general wetness question".

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

lotsofmagnets

yes, was quite a good read. at least now i´m convinced that the females of tfp are no better than the males, just it seems guys are more willing to express their opinions, opening them up to debate even if they are (of course in the minds of others) ill-informed. there was a clear demonstration of why there are more men than women in politics. nice to see sexism is dead and buried.
all my humble opinion, of course
but thatnks to abaya for starting a good thread which didn´t seem to end too well...

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Amaras

For me, the clearest point was that the women of TFP have opinions, clear and individual, and OUR way of debating is preventing us from learning what they think.
Not a method for the best possible chance at evolving, is it? I WANT TO hear different opinions. I sure as hell don't think I'm always right, does anyone, really?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

lotsofmagnets

what is "our way."? i particularly loved comments like "the us vs. them mentality" which is exactly what was propagated in that thread. somewhat hypocritical in my view. there is nothing stopping ANYONE from expressing their opinion in any of the forums here (except ladies´ lounge but we´ll overlook that ) except if people think their opinion is not worthy of being heard. as the saying goes: "speak up or forever hold your peace." i really don´t care if the person who is making the point is male or female. i care about the point and will argue the point yet somehow there is some sort of "us vs them" attitude. usually that sort of mindset will lead to that sort of reality. perhaps it has already. as far as i can see there is no sign on any of the threads stating that women are not wlecome.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Amaras

Try reading their thread. I wouldn't think there are very many atavistic men on this forum.
While there may be no "Not welcome" signs posted, perhaps there are signs we aren't grasping. I know for a fact I can argue like hell with you, name call and all the rest, and then go hang out after or whatever without leftover resentment. I know that, I think you know that. I'm just not sure most women get that (ladies, please don't flame me for that, just gently show me the error of my ways).
My point is that evidently there is a gap here. It exists. I want to know why, and I would hope there is a remedy (I'm just a tad idealistic, perhaps).

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

lotsofmagnets

i´m not sure i get your 1st sentence. i´m not going to assume you mean you think i haven´t read their thread. my basic point is that it seems like there is a request to stifle debate so that a few extra people can join in for a fun time agreeing with each other. politics will always be divisive. in case it hasn´t been noticed i myself am a rare contributor to political debates and this is because many times i feel that others are able to express my sentiments better than me but if i have a point and there is an empty space it is my responsibility to express myself. this has nothing to do with the sexes but if people want it to then i reserve the right to disagree wholeheartedly.

but to go back to your point: i´m not a fan of the name calling stüff and i know most ppl here know it´s conterproductive. it was intersting that it was bought up in the ladies´thread rather than the ladies taking it up with the people in question.

the "irony" of the situation has just struck me that we´re forced to discuss this in a tangent in one of the political forums whereas the ladies get their own space to discuss this. i think it´s appropriate that if this discussion is continued it be away from this thread but since there really is no space where it can be discussed (by males) i think it should be terminated. if you feel you have any other points please pm me instead and i will do likewise.

back to teh regular programming.

edit: sorry, my intention is not to cut you off

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

ngdawg

You're kidding, right? Not about not thinking you're always right, but asking if anyone does, really. Uhm, yea, quite a few make it a point of telling us they're right. And if they can't prove that, they'll tell you you were wrong

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

dc_dux

There are opinions and there are facts. What separates TFP political discussions from other discussions here is that they are often blurred and often strongly held.

Much of what is offered in some discussions are regurgitated tidbits of infotainment from other political sites or pseudo-news sites that support the member's opinion but are presented as facts.

But thats just my opinion....not a fact.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

rmarshall

If a guy says he doesn't think he's always right, you can't argue with that. If he's wrong then he's always right. But, then he's wrong. It's too confusing to ponder.

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

Amaras

Not feeling cutoff, thanks for the edit!
Maybe I'll start another thread elsewhere.



Perception becomes fact when that perception causes action. That is just MY opinion.

Wow, rmarshall, here's three possibilities:
1. I used to smoke a LOT of pot. You should have sent this to me back then, I would have been able to make more sense of it

2. Alternatively, it could mean that I do not believe I am infallible, that I am human,
born to make mistakes. What some of those errors are, my fellow human beings
may be able to show me, if they so choose.

3. OR, you are trying too hard rmarshall, take a hot bath and relax.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

shakran

This thread is about "President Elect Barack Obama." I'd like to see it get back on track. It would be better to have a discussion about discussions in a separate thread. Thanks

abaya

Funny, my interpretation of Pig's comment was that the comments being made about race were taking place in a vacuum, not that they were empty-headed. But perhaps he'll return to clarify.
Thumbs down on this comment. This attitude is exactly part of the problem.

Otherwise, agreed with Shakran. Grolsch, would be great to discuss this elsewhere.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Amaras

I agree wholeheartedly.

Shakran is right. New thread is here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...scussions.html
'nuff said.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

Charlatan

I came across these graphics today and thought they were interesting. I can remember seeing the 2004 graphic shortly after the 2004 election and was interested to see just how "purple" the US is. It doesn't look like it has really changed all that much.







I was looking at some other stats prior to the election that suggested this election would be won or lost in the urban centres of the swing states. That ultimately this election was an Urban vs. Rural election. From some of the stats I have seen post election, it played out that the cities were the places that Obama won. What was fascinating was just how few urban votes he needed to gain on 2004's results to win a state.

State Metro Increase to Win

NM 0.008414497

IA 0.009344614

OH 0.021970032

NV 0.02706302

FL 0.051198009

CO 0.0512231

MO 0.082884769

VA 0.09209499

NC 0.135344697

WV 0.170061948

IN 0.22009237

MT 0.313605308

ND 0.394913127

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

timalkin

Can someone explain how these comments are not racist?

"God has vindicated the black folk," the Rev. Shirley Caesar-Williams said as a member of her Raleigh congregation, Mount Calvary Word of Faith Church, brandished a flag and another marched among the pews blowing a ram's horn.

"Too long we've been at the bottom of the totem pole, but he has vindicated us, hallelujah," the Grammy-winning gospel singer cried. "I don't know about you, but I don't have nothing to put my head down for, praise God. Because when I look toward Washington, D.C., we got a new family coming in. We got a new family coming in. And you know what? They look like us. Amen, amen. They look like us."

"I am so happy," she said. "I cried so much. I never thought that in this lifetime I would live to see an African-American become president of these United States."



What would be the reaction if white people were saying these things if a white President had been elected? Why is there a double standard?



Churches across America reflect on Obama election - Yahoo! News

RALEIGH, N.C. – Jubilation, pride and relief permeated pews and pulpits at predominantly black churches across the country on the first Sunday after Barack Obama's election, with congregrants blowing horns, waving American flags and raising their hands to the heavens.

"God has vindicated the black folk," the Rev. Shirley Caesar-Williams said as a member of her Raleigh congregation, Mount Calvary Word of Faith Church, brandished a flag and another marched among the pews blowing a ram's horn.

"Too long we've been at the bottom of the totem pole, but he has vindicated us, hallelujah," the Grammy-winning gospel singer cried. "I don't know about you, but I don't have nothing to put my head down for, praise God. Because when I look toward Washington, D.C., we got a new family coming in. We got a new family coming in. And you know what? They look like us. Amen, amen. They look like us."

In the historically black New York City neighborhood of Harlem, Obama buttons and T-shirts were as prevalent in the pews as colorful plumed hats, while in a church in the former capital of the Confederacy, a young girl handled a newspaper with a photo of Obama and the headline, "Mr. President."

At Los Angeles' oldest black church, ushers circulated through the aisles with boxes of tissues as men and women, young and old, wept openly and unabashedly at the fall of the nation's last great racial barrier.

And on the day that the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. famously called "the most segregated day of the week," black and white Christian clergy members asked God to give Obama the wisdom and strength to lead the country out of what many consider a wilderness of despair and gloom.

At Hungary Road Baptist Church in a working-class suburb of Richmond, Va., the service was part celebration, part history lesson, led by a pastor who had felt the sting of the Jim Crow South. The Rev. J. Rayfield Vines Jr., pastor of the predominantly African-American congregation, paused briefly as he recalled the indignities he endured but did not bow to while growing up Suffolk, in southeastern Virginia.

"I was there when you had ride in the back of the bus," Vines said under a simple cross illuminated by eight light bulbs. "I was there when you went to the department store and you couldn't try on the clothes. I was there when they had a colored toilet and a white toilet."

The pastor said he shared his humiliations Sunday to help give those "who had not tasted the bitterness of segregation ... an idea why we all shouted."

Inside Harlem's Abyssinian Baptist Church, member Sheila Chestnut, 61, proudly wore a rhinestone Obama pin on her suit lapel.

"I am so happy," she said. "I cried so much. I never thought that in this lifetime I would live to see an African-American become president of these United States."

When the Rev. Calvin Butts invited the congregation to stand up "and give God praise for the election," several hundred churchgoers rose as one, lifted their hands and gave a sustained cheer, then chanted, "Yes we can! Yes we can!"

At Apostolic Church of God on Chicago's South Side, less than two miles from Obama's home, jubilant Sunday services were peppered with references to the election and calls to be grateful for his victory.

"We thank the Lord for this second Sunday (in November) after the first Tuesday," Dr. Byron Brazier said to resounding applause and cheers from the mostly black congregation. "This is a wonderful time to be alive."

Obama spoke at Apostolic on Father's Day in his first address to a congregation after leaving his longtime church, Trinity United Church of Christ, following inflammatory remarks there by his former longtime pastor and others.

In Los Angeles, tears flowed freely at the First AME Church during the raucous two-hour service of house-busting music and prayer. There were some white and yellow faces among the congregants, and the Rev. John J. Hunter felt the need to let them know they were not being left out.

"The smiles on our faces are not gloating looks of victory," he said. "The smiles on our faces are not the sign or any symbol that it is now our time and our chance to get even. Rather, the smiles on our faces are expressions of thanksgiving."

At a white church in Mississippi, where roughly nine in 10 whites voted for Republican John McCain, the scene was more muted.

The neighborhood around the Alta Woods United Methodist Church in Jackson has seen its demographics shift from white to black in recent decades, and most of the parishioners have moved to the suburbs. While the Rev. David W. Carroll recognized Obama's election as a "historic shift," he spent just as much time praising McCain's patriotism in defeat.

"As the crowd began to boo a little bit ... he quieted them down and said, 'Now is not my time, but I'm an American first and I will serve the president-elect,'" he said. "In a loss, he showed us still how he could win through his service."

In his Web message last week, the Rev. Gregg Matte of Houston's mostly white First Baptist Church decried a society that has turned to government as its savior. "Today," he wrote, "Hollywood is our pastor, technology is our Bible, charisma is our value and Barack Obama is our President."

But from the pulpit Sunday, Matte asked the 1,000 or so mostly white faces staring back at him to "lift up President-elect Obama" even if he wasn't their choice on Tuesday.

"Regardless of whether you voted for him or not, he's now our president come Jan. 20," he said. "So we're going to come behind him and pray for him and pray for wisdom, that God will give him wisdom and be able to really speak to his heart."

Perhaps nowhere was the weight of history more palpable Sunday than at Atlanta's Ebenezer Baptist Church, from whose pulpit King spread his message of inclusion and across from which he lies entombed.

When the Rev. Raphael G. Warnock tried to put into words what it meant for Obama to win Virginia, where the first American slaves landed nearly 400 years ago, his words were drowned out by applause and cheers from a capacity crowd whose faces captured the spectrum of the human rainbow.

"Barack Obama stood against the fierce tide of history and achieved the unimaginable," he said. "But he did not get here by himself. Give God some credit. He is the Lord."

But while he told the congregation that it was a time for celebration, he also reminded them it was a serious time.

"We still have a whole lot of work to do," he said. "You have two little girls who will grow up in the White House. Around the corner, you have two little girls who will grow up in a crack house."

Among those in attendance was the slain civil rights leader's sister, Christine King Farris. She was reminded of her brother's prescience.

"As he predicted the night before he left us, 'I may not be with you, but as a people we will reach the promised land,'" she said stoically. "That promised land was realized Tuesday. Yes, it is our promised land."

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Charlatan

You know... I really don't think you understand that racism is not just a skin colour thing. It is also dependent on a position of power... one race over another.

For blacks to be celebratory over a black man gaining the highest office in the US is not racist. It is celebrating an idea that a group of people (in this case a racial group) has managed to overcome hundreds (thousands?) of years of oppression to gain something nobody thought would be possible. What they are celebrating is increasing equality. Another step in the direction where racism is *not* an issue.

This is not a double standard. It would be a double standard if there was equality amongst the races. There isn't. We are not there yet.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

timalkin

When will we get there? We have black politicians in Congress. Black people run multi-million dollar businesses. Black people have been astronauts, doctors, lawyers, Secretaries of State, college professors, firemen, policemen, you name it.

And now we have a black man as the soon-to-be leader of the free world.

When do we reach a point where we as a society do not tolerate people celebrating the color of their skin?

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

pig

yes, abaya and charlatan have summed up exactly what i was implying with the vacuum chamber picture. these discussions on racial aspects - much like the discussion about a year ago about a predominantly white fraternity in pennsylvania (i think?) - always sound more rational when they are taken out of the context of historic discrimination, generational poverty, racial symbolism, and the like. i am personally somewhat incredulous that someone, in this case timalkin (but i'm sure the sentiment is held by others as well), would honestly think that black people in the united states wouldn't feel a certain amount of pride and excitement over the election of the first black president. or that black people wouldn't predominantly want to vote for someone who was black, given that a majority of black people found him to be a viable or perhaps exceptional candidate.

when you put the possibility of a black candidate ascending to the white house inside the context of the history of black/white race relations in the united states, i think it's impossible not to be proud and excited that we were able to elect a black person to the presidency. i think this is a perfectly understandable human reaction, and i can see no way to demonize it. it's a big deal, and i don't think people are wrong to recognize it as such.

i did not intend to call anyone empty headed. i would posit that i, perhaps obviously, have a different opinion on the matter, and therefore would find the contrary opinion/analysis to be incomplete or lacking in depth, however. if that is empty-headed, then i suppose i can go with that.
-----Added 9/11/2008 at 08 : 25 : 52-----
My opinion? Hopefully never, as I think celebration of whatever you happen to be is a wonderful thing. I think more celebration of the diverse "things" we are would be fantastic.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

dc_dux

I agree with Charlantan.

Racism is not a racial group celebrating the success of one of its own.

Racism is a dominant group using that dominance and a belief in their racial superiority, either individually or institutionally, to discriminate against or intimidate a less dominant group based solely on race.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Charlatan

Whenever it is, I don't think you, as a white person, can answer that question.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dc_dux

Absolutely. we have come a long way considering that the first 16 US presidents could have legally owned Obama as a slave.

There is cause for celebration but there is also cause to recognize that this historic event hasnt eliminated racism in America.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

smooth

My guess is that the time a non-black asks, "haven't we done enough, yet?" is around the time that question is actually answerable in the affirmative.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

shakran

And we have morons like Douglas Sadler of the North Iowa Knights of the Ku Klux Klan who are mad because it's no longer the White House.

We will get there when people stop worrying about the color of someone's skin for anything other than suspect identification (5'4 white male) or medical reasons (certain races are more susceptible to certain maladies).


So long as people are not allowed to answer questions based on the color of their skin, we know we aren't there yet.

Amaras

Exactly what he said.
Nice way of putting it, shakran. I will always be proud of my skin, I think you should be of yours, Obama of his, and so on....
-----Added 10/11/2008 at 09 : 31 : 54-----
I found this article interesting. It gives some insight into the life of a President.
One part says he wants to remove the plasma screen from the Lincoln bedroom
because he wants guests to "read". Man, I make love to my wife for sure in that
room. Or myself, if I was alone.
The part about Quayle is precious.

Here's the original:Barack Obama: What life will be like for new US President - mirror.co.uk


Barack Obama: What life will be like for new US President

If Michelle Obama thought the past 22 months on the election trail were tough, she ain't seen nothing yet... On January 20 when husband Barack gets the keys to The White House, life for America's new First Family will change forever.

Today we explain exactly how...

SECURITY
Barack Obama - Secret Service codename Renegade - is now the most guarded man on the planet.

Even when he goes to the loo, bodyguards stand outside it.

And when he travels by motorcade there are a dozen identical cars - so potential assassins won't know which one he is in.

The President-elect will also have to get used to handing his glass to a Secret Service agent every time he has a drink outside the White House. The agent carries a small bag in which to pop the glass and later he destroys it.

The idea is to ensure that no unauthorised person has access to the Presidential DNA, but it is not clear how an enemy would use it.

Obama will be given a set of panic buttons: One for his pocket, one on his desk and one beside his bed. They are credit card-shaped and simply have to be squeezed to summon a posse of agents.

At one time, the President and Vice-President were given three-inch-high models of the Washington Monument to put beside their beds. They had simply to knock them over to summon the guards.

But the models were abandoned after Vice-President Dan Quayle - noted for being clumsy - knocked his over late one night while making love to his wife.

In seconds, the door burst open, the lights went on and Mrs Quayle was thrown out of bed to the floor as bodyguards flocked around her husband to ensure his safety.

MOVING HOME
Michelle Obama once called her husband and asked him to pick up some ant traps on his way back from work to tackle an infestation in their Chicago home.

No such domestic trivia will ever bother her again. She is soon to become the mistress of the sixstorey, 132-room White House.

Michelle will have more than 100 domestic staff including her own florist - to change the flowers daily - chefs, drivers and dressers.

Nancy Reagan said that, a month after moving in to the White House, she was surprised when the usher sent up a bill for their food.

She added: "No one told us the President and his wife are charged for every meal, as well as for dry cleaning, toothpaste and toiletries. Five minutes after Ronnie came home and hung up his suit, it would disappear from the closet to be pressed, cleaned or brushed."

President Reagan said it was like living in an eight-star hotel but Harry Truman complained the place was a "glamorous prison".

DECORATION
Michelle will be given a budget of £150,000 to redecorate and make the First Family feel at home.

She's pledged to give the decor an African-American twist with vibrant colours and fabrics - and Barack wants to remove the plasma TV from the famous Lincoln bedroom. Instead, he wants guests to read.

Barack will have to decide which desk he will use in the Oval Office.

Friends say it will be the same desk picked by John F Kennedy - the "Resolute Desk" presented by Queen Victoria in 1880.

Another of Michelle's tasks will be to pick out the state china. But she's been warned not to go over the top - Nancy Reagan was slated for splashing out Û1m on china.

COOKING
One great perk will be having 25 chefs at the Obamas' disposal.

Michelle will be asked to email the head chef a list of the President's favourite dishes and new desserts will be created in his honour.

Advertisement - article continues below »
Click here to find out more!

Former pastry chef Roland Mesnier, who served for 25 years, once made a 2ft gingerbread version of the White House for Laura Bush, said in 2007: "Every First Lady will be demanding when they come to the White House. They want things done their own way."

SPORT
To help him keep in shape, Barack will build an indoor basketball court - to replace the bowling alley that Richard Nixon installed.

And President Obama will invite professional basketball stars to join him "shooting hoops".

Franklin D Roosevelt built a pool in the White House, Dwight D Eisenhower a putting green and Bill Clinton had a running track on the edge of the south lawn.

So the new president is only following tradition. But the Secret Service bodyguards have already warned him not to think of cycling around Washington, as he did as a senator - it would be too risky.

But he will make full use of the White House gym to lift weights most mornings and the billiards room to relax some nights.

SCHOOLS
Daughters Malia, 10, and Sasha, seven, are expected to go to one of the many private schools in Washington.

Favourite is Sidwell Friends school attended by Bill Clinton's daughter Chelsea.

The risk of the girls being kidnapped is very real, so rather than their usual "sleep-over parties" with pals at the Chicago home of grandma Marian Robinson, the girls will have visitors over.

"We may see sleep-overs at the White House," said Verna Williams, a student pal of Michelle.

It is thought Michelle's mum Mrs Robinson will also move in to stay near the children.

CHURCH
One of the toughest problems the family will face is picking a church. They have a deep Protestant faith and will want to attend church every Sunday.

They may even decide to go to several different churches in Washington, including the Anglican one just across Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House.

PETS
White House pets - especially dogs - are popular with voters.

In his acceptance speech, Obama promised his girls a new puppy to take with them to their new home.

Mr Obama later said he wanted a dog from a rescue home, saying "shelter dogs are mutts - like me".

Former Presidential pets have included Bill Clinton's chocolate labrador Buddy and his cat Socks.

George W Bush has two Scottish Terriers - Miss Beazley and Barney, who became an internet star when a videocam was attached to his collar and his adventures were posted on the White House website.

Ronald Reagan's dog Lucky loved chasing reporters and was dispatched to the family ranch owing to his behaviour. More unusually, John F Kennedy kept parakeets.

HOLIDAYS
To get away from it all, the Obamas will have access to the Sequoia - a 150-ton yacht built in 1925.

John F. Kennedy celebrated his final birthday onboard and Richard Nixon famously played God Bless America on the ship's piano after deciding to resign.

Even though ex-President Jimmy Carter had the boat sold in a public auction, the yacht is still available for use by the White House.

But trips to their old family home in Chicago will have to be vetted by security officials. A fence will be put up round the home with a live-in guard on duty 24/7.

The secluded Camp David residence will be available for some down-time where the family will be able to ski and relax - but with a team of bodyguards in proximity.

Vice-President Dan Quayle set off panic alarm while making love to his wife..security rushed in and threw her out of bed

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928